Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2013 May 3

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May 3

what is difference between "would you?" and "will you?"

Hi!
I got a doubt on "would you" and "will you?"
Requests can be expressed by using “Will you? “ and ” would you?”
Examples:
1)will you post this letter?
2)would you post this letter?
My doubts:
1)In my book The difference between the above two sentences explained like below.
“Would you?”is less authoritative so more polite than “will you? “
Can you explain the word “less authoritative “with some other sentences?
2)What is time difference between “will you?” And” would you” in above two sentences?
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Phanihup (talk • contribs) 00:43, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

• Would is conditional, will indicative. You can say "I would do that if I could, but I can't." You cannot say "I will do that but I can't." μηδείς (talk) 01:16, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

That's the grammatical difference, but, in terms of polite requests, "would you" tends to be more polite and less imperative, along the lines of "would you be willing to". "Will you" tends to be used where there is an understood right for the request to be made. This difference may vary by culture. Dbfirs 06:18, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

I wouldn't say there's much or any difference between "would" and "will" in the instances given, except that "will" might be slightly more forceful, like a teacher asking a student and it's expected the student will say yes. But among peers, at least in my dialect (Midwest American, college/post-college age group) there's no real difference. In everyday speech, I'd also extend that to include "can" and "could." In formal speech "can/could" would elicit an answer of "yes [it's possible]" or "no [it's not]", without stating whether they will, but in everyday speech "Would/will/can/could you send this letter?" would all be answered "Yes [I can and will]." The negative is different, where a "Can/could you?" "No" entails there's something stopping you from carrying out the request, while "Would/will you?" "No" just means they won't (and without further explanation, might come across as a bit rude). Lsfreak (talk) 06:25, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

I think "less authoritative" is not a very clear phrase, though I think I see what they are getting at. They are suggesting that will you is definitely asking you to do something, and hence implying that they have authority to do so, whereas would you is asking less directly. For your second question: in some contexts, would functions as the past of will, but in this use there is no difference in time. --ColinFine (talk) 07:13, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Different Arabs with different varieties tell apart

How can I tell the differences between different Arab people of the Arab World with their varieties? Is there a website that shows the differences between grammars of the different Arabic speakers?--Donmust90 (talk) 03:21, 3 May 2013 (UTC)Donmust90

There's a website called Wikipedia that does. See Varieties of Arabic for an overview. --Jayron32 03:35, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Of course that will tell you about varieties of Arabic language. It won't tell you anything about the people. --ColinFine (talk) 07:14, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Donmust90 -- It strongly depends at what level they're speaking (see article Diglossia etc.). At the "basilectal" level, speakers of one dialect can be basically incomprehensible to speakers of geographically distant dialects. When trying to speak an approximation of "Modern Standard Arabic", the dialectal peculiarities are greatly reduced (though Egyptian speakers may still pronounce ج as [g], and Syrians would often pronounce it as [ʒ] / "ž", while the most theoretically "correct" would be [dʒ] / "j" etc.). AnonMoos (talk) 07:46, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

German translation

Could someone translate this:

Die weltgewandte Marie interessierte sich vor allem für Literatur, Musik, Theater und Kunst. Das neu erbaute Coburger Hoftheater wurde an ihrem 41. Geburtstag eröffnet. Franz Liszt war ab 1842 bei ihr öfters zu Besuch. Sie kümmerte sich persönlich um die Dienerschaft. 1836 übernahm sie das Protektorat für das Gothaer Marien-Institut, eine private Unterrichtsanstalt für Mädchen. Am 3. Mai 1842 stiftete sie in Coburg 2000 Taler zur Gründung einer „Bewahranstalt für kleine Kinder hiesiger Stadt nach dem Vorbild eines gleichen Instituts der Residenzstadt Gotha“. Die Marienschulstiftung wurde noch im selben Jahr tätig und betreibt bis heute als selbständige Stiftung in Coburg einen Kindergarten und seit einigen Jahren auch eine Kinderkrippe. Untergebracht ist sie seit 1869 in dem ihr gehörenden Anwesen Park 1 in Coburg.

Nachdem ihr Mann Ernst I. 1844 gestorben war, wählte Marie als Witwensitz das Herzogtum Gotha mit Schloss Reinhardsbrunn, Schloss Friedrichsthal und Schloss Friedenstein, wo sie am 24. September 1860 um 7:45 Uhr starb. Sie hat im herzoglichen Mausoleum auf dem Coburger Friedhof am Glockenberg ihre letzte Ruhestätte.

--The Emperor's New Spy (talk) 04:27, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Here's my take:

The urbane Marie was particularly interested in literature, music, theatre and art. The newly built Coburg Court Theater was opened on her 41st birthday. Franz Liszt often visited her in 1842. She personally looked after her servants. In 1836 she assumed the protectorate of the Gotha Mary Institute, a private educational institution for girls. On 3 May 1842 she founded in Coburg with a starting amount of 2000 Taler a "refuge kindergarten for small children in this town modelled after a similar institute in the capital Gotha". The Mary School Foundation became active in the same year and today, as an independent foundation in Coburg, operates a nursery and for some years also a creche. Since 1869 it is housed in Park 1, property owned by it in Coburg.

After her husband Ernst I died in 1844, Marie chose as her dowager's estate the Duchy of Gotha with Schloss Reinhardsbrunn, Schloss Friedrichsthal and Schloss Friedenstein, where she died on 24 September 1860 at 7:45. Her final resting place is the ducal mausoleum on the Coburg Friedhof am Glockenberg.

You might want to look over my translations of the proper nouns (das Gothaer Marien-Institut, die Marienschulstiftung, and so on) if you're going to use it in an article. Gabbe (talk) 07:51, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

On second thought, I think a better translation for Bewahranstalt is kindergarten, so I've changed my translation accordingly. Gabbe (talk) 08:06, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Shelter would be adequate too, I think. Difficult to translate and still confer the intended meaning. Lectonar (talk) 09:12, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

The urbane Marie was particularly interested in literature, music, theatre and art. The newly built Coburg Court Theater was opened on her 41st birthday. From 1842 onward, Franz Liszt often visited her. She personally took charge of the servants. In 1836, she took over the protectorate of the Gotha Mary Institute, a private educational institution for girls. On 3 May 1842 she endowed, with a starting amount of 2000 taler, a "refuge for small children in this town modelled after a similar institute in the capital Gotha" in Coburg. The Mary School Foundation became active in the same year, and until today, as an independent foundation in Coburg, operates a nursery and since some years also a creche. It is housed in a selfowned estate in Park 1 in Coburg since 1869. After her husband Ernst I died in 1844, Marie chose as her dowager's estate the Duchy of Gotha with Schloss Reinhardsbrunn, Schloss Friedrichsthal and Schloss Friedenstein, where she died on 24 September 1860 at 7:45. Her final resting place is the ducal mausoleum on the Coburg Friedhof am Glockenberg.

Lectonar (talk) 08:00, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Just to make the English slightly more idiomatic:

The urbane Marie was particularly interested in literature, music, theatre drama[1] and art. The newly built Coburg Court Theater was opened on her 41st birthday. From 1842 onward, Franz Liszt often visited her. She personally took charge of the her servants personally. In 1836, she took over the protectorate management[2] of the Gotha Mary Institute, a private educational institution for girls. On 3 May 1842 she endowed, with a starting amount the sum of 2000 taler, a "refuge for small children in this town, modelled after on a similar institute in the capital, Gotha" in Coburg. The Mary School Foundation became active in the same year, and until today[3] , to this day, operates, as an independent foundation in Coburg, operates a nursery, and since for some years has also operated a creche.[4] It is has been housed in a selfowned privately owned estate in Park 1 in Coburg since 1869. After her husband Ernst I died in 1844, Marie chose as her dowager's estate the Duchy of Gotha, together with Schloss Reinhardsbrunn, Schloss Friedrichsthal and Schloss Friedenstein, where she died on 24 September 1860 at 7:45 am[5]. Her final resting place is the ducal mausoleum on in the Coburg Friedhof am Glockenberg Glockenberg Cemetery[6].

[1] Or "the theatre".

[2] Or "became the Protector". "Protectorate" is normally used to refer to states, rather than institutions.

[3] It might be a good idea to say when "today" is.

[4] This whole sentence really needs to be split into two (or three) to make it readable in English, although that's moving away from a literal translation.

[5] "7:45" on its own is ambiguous.

[6] I think it's better to translate "Friedhof" here, as it's not obvious to someone who doesn't know the German.

Tevildo (talk) 22:59, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

What is the name of this news article in Arabic?

I found a Rose al-Yūsuf article http://maraiafilm.com/eufs/Rose_el_yousef.pdf - https://www.webcitation.org/6GKerEP0o?url=http://maraiafilm.com/eufs/Rose_el_yousef.pdf - I cannot copy and paste the Arabic text that is the title of the article. What is the title? Thanks WhisperToMe (talk) 05:50, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

The small black text below the red navigation bar reads روز اليوسف, though I don't think it's the article title... AnonMoos (talk) 07:54, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

The part in blue? That's "مشاكل المثليين في فيلم سينماءى على أغنية عبد الوهاد". I'm not quite sure what it says, but something about "The problem of homosexuality in the movie about the song of Abdel Wahad", I guess. The last line in blue says "Tariq Mustafa" but I assume that's the name of the author of the article. The text mentions Mohammed Abdel Wahab, so I guess there is a movie about his music and it has a homosexual theme and someone thinks this is a problem. Adam Bishop (talk) 10:45, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Thank you! What is the Arabic for "Tariq Mustapha"? WhisperToMe (talk) 12:46, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

طارق مصطفي Wrad (talk) 19:41, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

On the book cover, it just says "مشاكل المثليين على أغنية عبد الوهاد" -- "The Problems of Gays [or Male Homosexuals, take your pick] in the Music of Abd Al-Wahaad" Wrad (talk) 19:41, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Looking deeper, the article is very positive. It talks about the first Egyptian film to deal with male homosexuality and the problems that that community faces. Wrad (talk) 19:46, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

2 shots at 2 targets

Is there a specific name for shooting technique when two shots are fired in quick succession at two separate targets so that each target is hit once (similar to double tap)? I know that in Russian it's called a doublet, but English doesn't seem to use that word. --Brandmeister^talk 19:02, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

"Doublet" is an English word. What's the Russian word? -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 19:48, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Is it too? I googled "doublet shot" some time ago and tried other combinations, but it brought nothing definitive. Brandmeister^talk 21:14, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

I think Jack is saying only that "doublet" is an English word; I don't think he's saying that the phrase "doublet shot" exists. (I have no idea whether or not it exists). --ColinFine (talk) 22:44, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Yes, that's right. There is a Russian word дублет, pronounced like "doob-lyet", which means a duplicate, and it may have other meanings. That may be the "doublet" Brandmeister refers to. The English word 'doublet' has various meanings, but not, apparently, the one the OP's talking about. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 00:05, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

Russian Wikipedia has a disambiguation page for дублет and дуплет, but with a meaning given that is slightly different from Brandmeister's: "Выстрел из двух стволов двустволки сразу" (shot from both barrels of a double-barreled shotgun at once). The OED actually does list one of the meanings of doublet as "Two birds killed at once with a double-barrelled gun", but I can't guarantee that's still in use (the quotations are from 1816 and 1837). When I hear doublet, I think of the garment. Lesgles (talk) 06:02, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

Me too. The garment that keeps on giving: If you cut it in half, you get two singlets. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 07:49, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

See Great Britain Shooting - Men's Running Target, Double Shot Results. The event seems to have been discontinued and I can't find any details of what it actually entails. Alansplodge (talk) 19:40, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

In skeet shooting, two clay pigeons that are launched simultaneously (which the shooter is supposed to hit with two shots) are called a double. Deor (talk) 22:01, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

If both barrels unintentionally fire when only the first shot is intended the gun is said to be doubling, it is usually due to a faulty trigger mechanism. My brother once had this problem during a competition. <Warning the following is OR> According to my brother (who competes at a national level in South Africa) the word "pigeon" is officially deprecated - it is called "clay target shooting" or "clay shooting". Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 14:02, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Anyone read Azerbaijani?

There have been a number of edits to the Aylar Lie article over the last few months dealing with her ethnicity and origins. The sources that are being used are generally Azerbaijani and I can't speak or read that language. It seems to always be anon IPs that are doing the changes. I'm not sure if it's some sort of British vs. English dispute or just what is going on. Is there someone here who can help sort this out? Thanks, Dismas|^(talk) 22:12, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

The latest reference removed (along with the word "Azeri" which it supported, is not Azerbaijani but Russian. The headline is "Norwegian singer: 'I spoke Azerbaijani when I was little'", and the article starts "My father is from Azerbaijan by birth, he speaks Turkish." (I'm guessing that this means Azerbaijani rather than Turkish of Turkey, though I confess I'm a bit unsure, because she does refer to Azerbaijani in the next sentence). I haven't gone further back in the history. --ColinFine (talk) 22:59, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Why is Arabic not used in aircraft crash accident reports?

I wonder why no countries (that I know of) write aircraft crash/accident/incident reports in Arabic. I found that Saudi Arabia, United Arab Emirates, Lebanon, Egypt, and Libya publish their aircraft accident reports in the English language. Algeria publishes its reports in the French language, with translations into English.

Is there a structural issue with Arabic that prevents it from being a good language to use in such a report? Or are there other reasons?

The languages which I have seen original/binding versions are aside from English: Chinese, Dutch, French, German, Italian, Japanese, Korean, Norwegian, Russian, Spanish, Swedish, and Turkish. The Thai and Indonesian authorities also post their reports in English with no translations in their native languages.

Thanks, WhisperToMe (talk) 23:44, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

For a very long time, the lingua franca of the airline industry was French. That's why a plane in distress broadcasts "m'aidez" (you thought they were saying "May Day" didn't you?). M'aidez is French for "Help Me!". Over time, the lingua franca of the airline industry has transitioned to English. With pilots flying all over the world, it helps to have a single language the entire industry speaks, to ease communication and prevent misunderstandings where split-second decisions matter. That's probably why these reports are in a limited number of languages. --Jayron32 01:48, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

Pretty much what Jayron said. There's a whole chapter on this in Outliers where Malcolm Gladwell discusses the benefits of English as a universal language for air travel and how it came to be adopted. Evanh2008 ^{(talk|contribs)} 01:53, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

Actually, "help me!" in French is Aidez-moi. "Mayday" has to come from (Venez) m'aider to be grammatical French. Angr (talk) 05:17, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

How easy is Norwegian for you guys to understand? I don't think the difference between Norway and Thailand is that Norwegian is going to be more widely understood than Thai. I think it's that Norway has the confidence to use its own language in these kinds of settings, while European colonialism/U.S. hegemony has brainwashed some other countries into thinking they have to use a foreign language to be modern. Good on Norway. 96.46.198.58 (talk) 05:40, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

Oh, so this is the "I think" desk now. Great. Evanh2008 ^{(talk|contribs)} 05:48, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

How does your referencing a journalist's opinion about the "benefits of English" even begin to answer a question about why Norwegian is used but not Arabic? If you could provide some insight into that you might come closer to answering the OP's question. In the absence of actual relevant facts, the OP might consider an opinion on the matter better than nothing.

Underlying my opinion is the objective reality that European countries, no matter how small, are more likely to retain their own languages in education and other prestigious functions than are countries in Africa and Asia. My view is that this is closely related to colonialism and international power relations.

I'm not the first to express this view - a quick Google search turns up the following quote from a scholar of Arabic [1]: "Promoting one's language and culture above any other is directly linked to economically or militarily powerful regimes. [...] Writers who grew up in subjugated or recently independent countries have been immersed to different degrees in their colonizer's culture. Some of them even denounce their own language and adopt the Other's language, such as the case of many North African writers who express themselves in French rather than in Arabic, or other indigenous Berber languages."

Now aviation may not be wholly comparable to literature, but neither is a government report anything like an emergency air traffic control transmission between people of different nationalities. On a practical level, it must be remembered that these reports are also directed at a domestic audience (airline executives, etc.) who will have a much easier time reading their national language than English or French, not to mention the fact that relatively few people have the foreign-language proficiency needed to write in a way that fully expresses their ideas. To ignore these basic practical aspects and insist on writing directly in a foreign language requires a certain mindset that equates modernity with English and/or Europeanness.

Therefore my suggestion to the OP is that the answer is likely to be found in the general attitudes that Arabic-speakers hold towards the suitability of their language for prestigious scientific or technical functions, as influenced by their colonial past and views of their own culture, rather than in any practical aspects of the aviation field. 96.46.198.58 (talk) 07:14, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

The book Arabic, Self and Identity by Yasir Suleiman devotes considerable attention to subjective views of Arabic versus European languages in the Arab World. Here is a typical quote: "[T]hese days [...] studying and knowing English or French in most of the Middle East and North Africa have become a badge of sophistication and modernity and [...] feigning, or asserting, weakness or lack of facility in Arabic is sometimes paraded as a sign of status, class and, perversely, even education [...]" [2] 96.46.198.58 (talk) 07:44, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

And, so? You are a journalist? Most journalists can't even pronounce foreign names properly, never mind talk about the people and places they are referring to. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 14:05, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

The quote illustrates that in most of the Arab world Arabic would not be viewed as an appropriate medium for scientific and technical discourse, because European languages rather than Arabic are associated with modernity. These subjective beliefs are grounded in social factors rather than linguistic ones. And no, I'm not a journalist. 96.46.198.58 (talk) 05:30, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

Um, guys it's not about anyone's delicate linguistic sensibilities or colonial history that nobody living now remembers - it's about preventing accidents and saving lives. But do not merely take my word for it: here is a link to an actual website that gives a quick summary of the ICAO use of English with links to primary and secondary sources. If anybody cares. Textorus (talk) 14:47, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

I don't see anything in that link that would explain why Norway would publish crash reports in their own language and Arab countries wouldn't. Also, there is nothing to prevent an English translation of the report being published alongside it. What the OP said was that not even the original is in Arabic. Clearly Norway recognizes that Norwegian is the appropriate medium in which to communicate effectively with Norwegians.

The link you included is about air traffic communications, not accident reports that have the time to be translated. Also, while I agree that for international aviation the English ability of pilots is crucial, it is also extremely important that air traffic control and domestic pilots be able to communicate effectively in their national language. (For example, Russian pilots must be able to speak Russian with Russian air traffic controllers.) Since it is not feasible to expect pilots, no matter how well trained they are, to speak English as well as they do their native language, it can be anticipated that if communications between speakers of the same local language were required to be in English only, this too would lead to accidents. Analogously, do we really expect that all airline executives, engineers, mechanics, etc., in some country will really be able to understand a document in English as easily as they understand their own language? Such an expectation is entirely unrealistic. Could accidents not result from making the report more difficult to understand for those people most directly concerned by it? 96.46.198.58 (talk) 05:25, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

"it can be anticipated that if communications between speakers of the same local language were required to be in English only, this too would lead to accidents" — Well, where English has been implemented as the universal aviation language, this has not proven to be the case. In fact, when Korean Air switched to English, they experienced an improvement from what was an abysmal safety record to one that is on par with the safest airlines in the world. I strongly urge you to check out the source I mentioned. While you're correct that no one has yet given an adequate explanation for why some countries would use English and others their native language, the issue of language versus safety is not as clear cut as you're making it out to be. Evanh2008 ^{(talk|contribs)} 22:58, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

Nothing proves that the change for Korean Air was related to the switchover to English within Korea, rather than more of a focus on the quality of English for international aviation, or a broader safety focus generally, of which English was just one element of uncertain significance. Many examples have been given in the links and elsewhere of accidents that have happened because of non-native speakers' imperfect command of English. This includes pilots from such countries as the Netherlands, where you would expect a high standard of English. Of course, these mostly involved international flights. (Given that some low-cost airlines have started hiring crews composed of different nationalities, we can also expect to start having more accidents like Helios Airways Flight 522 resulting partly from lack of a common language among crew members.)

So imagine what would happen if the much larger number of domestic pilots, from all countries, had to speak English within their countries. In fact, the very same set of accidents leads to two different and complementary conclusions: 1) The standards of international pilots' English must be improved to avoid accidents in cases where using English is unavoidable; 2) It would be folly to impose English in cases where it is unnecessary (or only marginally useful, such as where foreign planes may be listening in but play a minor role in a situation). You can't really argue for point 1 without acknowledging that point 2 follows by the exact same logic, unless you believe that all the world's pilots can magically be turned into virtual native speakers. It is clear that there are situations where communication must go beyond a limited and formulaic vocabulary, useful though such a standardized vocabulary may be. In cases like these there is no conceivable way that two French people could communicate more effectively in English than in French.

Regardless, this is mostly unrelated to the OP's question about accident reports, whose domestic audience includes many people who are not international pilots and therefore may have little reason to be particularly proficient in English. 96.46.198.58 (talk) 10:00, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Whisper, we are unlikely to know for sure, but it is an interesting question, have you tried to contact those organisations who pulish these reports? I'd like to know if you get an answer. --Lgriot (talk) 08:17, 7 May 2013 (UTC)