Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2013 March 13

Welcome to the Wikipedia Language Reference Desk Archives
The page you are currently viewing is an archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the current reference desk pages.

March 13

Aristotle translation

This might be a fairly challenging task, but I was wondering if anyone could translate the following passage from Aristotle's Politics into Ancient Greek: "The male is by nature superior, and the female inferior; and the one rules, and the other is ruled; this principle, of necessity, extends to all mankind." (from Book I, Chapter V). Thanks so much! 64.229.204.239 (talk) 00:06, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

I may be being particularly dense tonight, but what exactly do you want? Aristotle wrote the thing in ancient Greek (ἔτι δὲ τὸ ἄρρεν πρὸς τὸ θῆλυ φύσει τὸ μὲν κρεῖττον τὸ δὲ χεῖρον, καὶ τὸ μὲν ἄρχον τὸ δ᾽ ἀρχόμενον. τὸν αὐτὸν δὲ τρόπον ἀναγκαῖον εἶναι καὶ ἐπὶ πάντων ἀνθρώπων); do you want someone to translate the English translation back into Greek like Mark Twain translating the French translation of his jumping-frog story back into English? Deor (talk) 01:08, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Agreed, the original is the way to go, unless you are going for a comic effect. StuRat (talk) 01:11, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Yes, the Greek translation was what I was asking for. I just couldn't find the original version of it in Greek, all I could find was the English translations. Sorry for the confusion, and thanks! 64.229.204.239 (talk) 01:16, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

In the future, look for the Loeb Classical Library edition at Google Books. They have the Greek and English matched line by line on facing pages. In fact, nvever buy any classical Greek or Latin work except in the Loeb edition.μηδείς (talk) 01:28, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

This really depends on the work, and what you're trying to do. To note, textual criticism of the works is still ongoing. I think the most recent critical edition of the original text of Aristotle was David Balme's 2002 Cambridge Classical Text of the History of Animals. The standard editions for most of Aristotle (and Plato, and many others) are the Oxford Classical Texts, but the standard deviates from this series for various works. For the Politics, both the OCT and Dreizehnter's 1970 (Studia et Testimonia Antiqua series) are standard, which is fitting because they are the most recent. Series of interest: Oxford Classical Texts, Cambridge Classical Texts, Cambridge Greek and Latin Classics, Loeb Classical Library, Bibliotheca Teubneriana, Collection Budé. There are also editions outside of these series which are nonetheless standard. --Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 04:07, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

I don't think you know what the word "translation" means. It means it was converted from one language to another. The original Greek is not a translation, because it was never converted from another language. So, you should ask for "the original Greek version", next time. StuRat (talk) 02:18, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

What he was looking for was the Greek vorlage (shameless promotion of article I wrote, not coincidentally the least read article on this encyclopedia). --Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 04:07, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

The main thing I've gathered from this discussion is that Greek χειρον means worse, while Arabic خير khairun means "better"! -- AnonMoos (talk) 21:18, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

knock-knock-knocking

I thank you in advance. Would you please teach me the meaning of "knock-knock-knocking" in the following passage?---"I know good and well he wants to see you, Miss Vernona, because he said so. The trouble with you is that you're wasting a heap of good precious time. They don't come knock-knock-knocking unless they've got something big on their mind. Now, please hurry up and get yourself dressed, Miss Vernona."(Erskine Caldwell, Episode in Palmetto, p.61.)123.227.223.236 (talk) 01:45, 13 March 2013 (UTC)dengen

Sounds like a stylistic way of saying "knocking" (on the door of the house when visiting). StuRat (talk) 02:21, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Might also be a reference to "...knock-knock-knockin' on heaven's door" -- see: Knockin' on Heaven's Door -- which relates to the idiom: knocking on heaven's door.  Or it could simply be an alliteration.

~E:74.60.29.141 (talk) 02:52, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Surely it's onomatopoeia, because when you knock at someone's door you tap several times. Rat-tat-tat. Itsmejudith (talk) 07:28, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Maybe in the broader context it was appraent that he was eagerly knocking or overly anxious to see her. 165.212.189.187 (talk) 14:08, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

My previous reference doesn't make much sense (but that song immediately came to mind) unless "knock-knock-knocking" was intended as an ominous portent. In context, you're right: it seems to relate to impatient suitors - rapping anxiously on the door. ~E:74.60.29.141 (talk) 19:36, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

English poetic style, of sorts. As with "Here comes Suzie Snowflake... tap-tap-tapping on your windowpane..."[1] A little out of season, but whatever. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:27, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

That must be when the red, red robin comes bob, bob, bobbin' along. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 11:53, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

Birendra Nath Dutta in Assamese

Can someone write the name "Birendra Nath Dutta" in Assamese scripts? --Tito Dutta (contact) 02:57, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Eat like a bird

I was always under the impression that birds eat a lot. Am I mistaken or is the expression off? 67.164.156.42 (talk) 05:14, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Birds, being a lot smaller than humans, eat a lot less than humans, hence the meaning of not eating very much. HiLo48 (talk) 05:21, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

I wonder why we don't talk of eating like an ant. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 05:24, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

I only wish I could carry 100 times my own weight back from the buffet table. :-) StuRat (talk) 05:38, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

In addition to the idea that they don't eat very much, I've always thought that the expression also referred to the small amount that they eat with each "bite". Granted, they can really gorge themselves if they want but just observing a bird, you wouldn't necessarily get that idea. Instead you'd likely see them eat one tiny morsel at a time. And not many of them before flying off again. Dismas|^(talk) 06:03, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

I don't think they really can gorge themselves. Being birds, they need to stay light, so doubling their body mass with undigested food just isn't an option. An exception would be for flightless birds and chicks not able to fly yet, which can get as fat as they want. Ironically, chicks are sometimes bigger than their parents, as a result of this. An interesting question is what biological mechanisms regulate the weight of birds, to keep them at optimal flight weight. If we could identify those, then we might be able to apply them to human weight control. StuRat (talk) 06:56, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

They don't gorge themselves, at least not if they're flying birds. They eat a great deal, but only in small amounts at a time. They have to constantly provide their flying engine with fuel. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:15, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

You're forgetting chicks. They regularly gorge themselves. StuRat (talk) 03:38, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

And they don't do much flying. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:01, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

Indeed, according to the Wiktionary definition, it is a simile:  To eat in small amounts rather than in a single full meal.   ~E:74.60.29.141 (talk) 06:44, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Stu, can you please show me an example of a chick being bigger than its parents? That seems physically impossible, on the face of it. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 08:47, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Check out Baby Huey. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 09:46, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Hmm, the cuckoo comes to mind, with its brood parasitism, but it depends on the definition of parentship. Lectonar (talk) 09:20, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Here's a pic with the chick looking slightly larger: [2]. Here's a rather brief mention of the phenomenon: "CHICK'S GROWTH: The chicks will be nearly full grown at 9 weeks of age. They will add some weight as they develop their flight muscles after they leave the nest. Their wingspan will be as large or slightly larger than the adults at this time." [3]. Here's another: "(Most altricial birds are the same size, sometimes bigger, than their parents in this very short space of time.)" [4].

As to how this happens, in addition to the natural variation in genetic size between parent and offspring, they do seem to "shrink" a bit as they start to fly. Perhaps this is from fat being turned into more dense muscle. They also seem to have fledging feathers that are a bit longer than adult feathers. You can think of these like training wheels on a bicycle, they are there to help out unsure flyers, and are replaced by shorter, more efficient feathers once they become proficient flyers.

Also note that shrinking with age isn't all that rare. Many humans do it, although in old age, not upon reaching adulthood. StuRat (talk) 10:01, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

I see. Thanks. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 17:58, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Funny in enough, in German, we get more precise: "Essen wie ein Spatz", to eat like a sparrow, and it has (only) the meaning of eating small amounts, afaik. Lectonar (talk) 09:06, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Norman Bates made a similar observation in Psycho (film). ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 09:46, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Half swim

I'm reading Lord of the Flies and it refers to "half swim"ming at one point right near the beginning. What is this though? Here's the passage with Piggy and Ralph:

"Aren't you going to swim?"

Piggy shook his head.

"I can't swim. I wasn't allowed. My asthma-"

"Sucks to your ass-mar!"

Piggy bore this with a sort of humble patience.

"You can't half swim well."

There's another mention of it around this part that I can't find again right now. I get the sense that this is some sort of activity or type of stroke that I've never heard of. So, is this something in British English that my American brain hasn't encountered? Dismas|^(talk) 09:06, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

No, you're misparsing it. It's not "You can't half swim well", but "You can't half swim well". The stock expression "He can't half <verb>" means he can do <verb> very well. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 09:10, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

So by saying he can't half do something well, that means he actually does do it well? That seems contradictory. Dismas|^(talk) 09:52, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

He does it less than half-well. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 10:09, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

No, Bugs, more than half-well. Even more than well. Very well. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 10:25, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Oh, I see, from StuRat's interpretation - meaning an understatement, like "not half-bad". "You can't half swim well" is not an expression we would use in the US. For one thing, the "half" is in the wrong place, which is what Dismas is getting at. Also, "can't" suggests less than half. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 10:44, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

You imply that the reason the phrase is not in common use in AmEng is that it's somehow wrong. It's nothing of the sort, it's a BrEng idiom that makes perfect sense to BrEng speakers. --Viennese Waltz 13:02, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Agreed. Now if we said "not yet half" that would imply less than half, I would think, as in "I'm not yet half done". StuRat (talk) 15:22, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

I'm more concerned about the "can't" part. It implies that the subject is unable to swim any way except very well - as if something's pulling him along. "Doesn't" would make more sense there. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:12, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

You needn't be concerned about the "can't" bit - the negative is part of the construction (see Alansplodge's examples below). And don't get hung up on its literal or grammatical (non)sense - it's an idiom and entirely comprehensible to speakers of British English (above a certain age). Gwinva (talk) 03:50, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

That's British English for you. That curious usage hasn't made it to the US, with the exception of "you're not half-bad at that", meaning you're good. Taken literally, it doesn't mean good or bad, just not halfway. StuRat (talk) 10:18, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

And a reference to back it up; "Usually as 'can't half', 'doesn't half', 'don't half', etc UK, 1851 not half! used for registering assent, approval, agreement, etc UK, 1920 not half bad adjective quite good UK, 1867 not having any adjective refusing to agree..." The Concise New Partridge Dictionary of Slang and Uncoventional English By Eric Partridge, Tom Dalzell, Terry Victor. Alansplodge (talk) 12:56, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

(ec)The DJ Alan Freeman was known for his catchphrase "not 'alf". ("Not arf" in our article, just to confuse the rhotic speakers among you). This is normal British English anyway: "Are you pleased with your exam results?" "Not half! All As." Itsmejudith (talk) 12:59, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

In my local Cockney dialect, "can't half" and "don't half" are pronounced "c'narf" and "d'narf". This isn't (in my experience) a construction used by children any more, so may well vanish without a trace in the next few decades. Alansplodge (talk) 13:07, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Good riddance. A rare case where children actually speak better than the parents. StuRat (talk) 15:18, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

You are making the error of supposing that they would replace an outmoded idiom with textbook English. That is far from the truth. If Piggy were a 2013 twelve year-old, a more likely phrase would be "You is well sick at swimming, innit man." Alansplodge (talk) 20:47, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Agree, it doesn't feature in Multicultural London English. But it's still well understood in England even if it is starting to get slightly dated. Going back in time there was the 1970s sitcom It Ain't Half Hot Mum (autres temps, autres moeurs...). Itsmejudith (talk) 13:21, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Yes, still very common in the adult world here in London, but it struck me that it's not the sort of thing that a child would say today; O tempora o mores! Alansplodge (talk) 14:33, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

I've just remembered a 1970s advert for Wotsits which concluded "You know what, Watt, you don't half know what's what!" Alansplodge (talk) 14:40, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

I wonder what "We're not halfway there" means in British English. In US English, it means a bit less than halfway. StuRat (talk) 15:20, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

It means the same in BrE. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 15:39, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

But if you asked "Are we there yet?", and someone answered "Not 'alf", that would mean you've definitely arrived (and NOT that you're not even halfway there yet). Great, isn't it. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 17:57, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Litotes Dbfirs 18:57, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Thank you all for the explanations and links. I didn't see any of this but just in case, I never meant to suggest that the book should make things plain for non-BrEng speakers. That said, I've found another example of the "don't half" phrasing. On page 63 (of my copy) there is a line that says "You don't half look a mess." It is after Jack cleans his first attempts at face paint off of his face. Anyway, thanks again, Dismas|^(talk) 05:29, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

language learning and hours of study

Does anyone know of any research linking number of hours of study of a foreign language to vocabulary size? I've found a snippet or two on vocab size vs. total number of hours of classroom study, but can find nothing on google scholar or google about total study time. Class time, of course, neglects homework, so I'm looking for something that covers homework and classroom time. Thanks in advance, IBE (talk) 10:20, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

(This paper makes the very basic link that students who studied vocabulary lists longer did better on vocabulary tests.)
This might be a better lead: This book chapter quotes a researcher saying "a productive vocabulary size of around 2,000 is a possible though ambitious goal after 1,000 hours of study of English as a Foreign Language". I think the researcher may be Paul Nation in Wellington; click on his name to link to a lot of his research on vocabulary size which may help. 184.147.116.201 (talk) 20:17, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Thanks - that's a good start. I almost get the feeling the research just hasn't been done, partly because it's hard to measure what counts as a word, and then what counts as knowing it. Then you have to calculate the hours of actual study, which will presumably be self-reported, and unreliable. These problems look solvable, but you would need a lot of agreement on standards (counting words only has to be done consistently, deciding what counts as a known word is a bit more troublesome, but counting hours of private study would be quite difficult). That paper you linked looks like a (fairly good) student dissertation to me, and I get the feeling the research quoted does not count hours of homework - still, it mentions results from different countries, which is something of a lead to pursue. I get the funny feeling it's in the too-hard basket. IBE (talk) 23:53, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict with Medeis) Indeed. Lemma (morphology) discusses some of that "what counts as a word" problem. Also when looking, it seemed that although there were people willing to give numbers of hours to learn a language to a given level (for English-speakers, Spanish comes in at 600 and Korean at 2,200 to reach the same level if I remember right), no one was separating out vocab from other aspects of language learning. I wonder if you were able to contact Nation if he could point you right. 184.147.116.201 (talk) 01:27, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

Great idea in fact about contacting Nation - in fact I'm sure the researchers will be very helpful if i have tried first. There are other good researchers like Batia Laufer who would also be good points of contact. IBE (talk) 08:27, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

• i thought we just had this question. In any case, having learned various languages, I would say that the more hours the merrier, but that casual learning through conversation and passive absorption (watching movies) works better for me than trying to memorize lists for higher level vocabulary. Basic vocabulary, the firt few hundred words, should be learned by rote if necessary, and by identifying cognates (or borrowings) wherever possible. μηδείς (talk) 01:22, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

Can you link to the previous question you are thinking of? 184.147.116.201 (talk) 01:27, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, no idea what to look for but 'language learning', which is eminently unhelpful. μηδείς (talk) 19:26, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

Adjectives

Are there any differences in grammar between the following noun + adjective combinations: "time immemorial", "heir apparent", "knights errant", "person responsible", "time available", "something new", "person nearby"? It seems to me that the set expressions like "time immemorial" are stronger examples of post-positive adjectives than some others, like "person responsible", which seems to be more an abbreviation for "person who is responsible". However, I suppose in theory you could also say "time that is immemorial", so I'm not sure if there really is any fundamental distinction. "something new", for example, also feels somehow different, yet I am not very clear why. 86.146.107.128 (talk) 14:46, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

"Something new" is kind of a condensed relative clause ("something which is new"), while "nearby" in "person nearby" is an adverb... AnonMoos (talk) 15:47, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Are you sure about "nearby" being an adverb there? Also, I understand that you can say "something which is new", but, as I mentioned, you can also say "time that is immemorial" or "heir who is apparent" -- at least, they are grammatically possible. So what's the difference, if any? 86.146.107.128 (talk) 18:06, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

"Heir apparent" traditionally has a specific fixed legal meaning, and is not really the same as "heir who is apparent"... AnonMoos (talk) 21:25, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

"Time immemorial" is a fixed phrase because you can't substitute anything else for "time": *years immemorial, *ages immemorial. Same with "knights errant": *nobles errant, *warriors errant. "Heir apparent": *beneficiary apparent, *inheritor apparent. Whereas with "something new", both parts can be substituted: anything new, everything new; something completely different, everything different; anything interesting, everyone involved... Itsmejudith (talk) 16:23, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Sure, I already mentioned that they are set patterns, but the question is whether are they grammatically identical to the others. 86.146.107.128 (talk) 18:06, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

I think your first analysis was correct. Things like heir apparent or attorney general are just calques on the French. The other terms are abbreviations of relative clauses as AnonMoos states. Time immemorial is not really a condensation of "time which is immmemorial". μηδείς (talk) 19:43, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Agree with Medeis (and most others above). I also would say that you may be right in a sense, in that the formal, explicit structure of the examples may be the same, but there is a difference in feel. Try the example "surgeon general" - the adjective is after the noun, but it means something different to a "general surgeon". But someone will probably be along to tell me that is a different category altogether. IBE (talk) 23:36, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Time immemorial has a specific fixed legal meaning in this part of the world. Alansplodge (talk) 00:19, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

How about Pope Francis? Like: the carpet...which carpet... the RED carpet. -> The Pope...which Pope...Francis the Pope. I know proper names are not adjectives but...165.212.189.187 (talk) 15:38, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

Bwanos Aires

So, now that there's a Pope from Argentina, there's been a lot of commentary that includes the words "Buenos Aires".

Trouble is, most non-hispanic people I've heard (and not just today, but for years) pronounce the first word as "Bwah-nos", rather than "Bweh-nos". I've never understood why they would do this. There was a Brazilian tennis player on the circuit some years ago named Maria Bueno. I never heard anyone ever call her "Maria Bwah-no"; it was always Bweh-no.

The only thing I can think of is the word bwana, which is well known internationally. But that is a Swahili word, and should provide no guidance as to how any hispanic word would be pronounced, and particularly one that includes an e in the spelling, and not an a.

Are there any other published theories about "Bwanos Aires"? -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 20:48, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Never heard that pronunciation until you just brought it up. However, I've often heard "bweh-nos air-aze", when it's rightly closer to "bweh-nos eye-race". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:09, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

In what country are you hearing this, Jack? Oz? In the States, I've never heard "Bwahnos"; and certainly here in the good Midwestern German city of Milwaukee, anything but "Bwenos" or "Bwaynos" will get you some really hard stares. --Orange Mike | Talk 21:11, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

In Australia, principally. I've been listening to the developing news from Rome this morning and virtually all I'm hearing from commentators is "Bwah-nos", "Bwah-nos", "Bwah-nos". I heard one person say "Bweh-nos", and it really stood out. But, as I say, I've been hearing people say this for too many years to count. Mostly Aussies no doubt, but I also remember hearing Britishers and Amerikaners say it too. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 23:47, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Well, I've never heard anyone in England say it like that. We've had a spot of bother with the place for the last thirty years or more, so it doesn't take a Pope to get it on the news over here. Alansplodge (talk) 00:15, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

Here's a youtube of Andrew Zimmern (who's from New York, where there are plenty of hispanics) visiting Buenos Aires, which he pronounces Bwah-nos every time he says the word (about 20 times by the time I stopped listening). That's what I'm talking about. I also found many other clips where Americans say it properly, so "Bwah-nos" seems to be the exception over there. But it's definitely become the norm over here in Oz. I'd love to know why, though. It just doesn't make any sense. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 00:20, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

Interesting: I listen to him, and I'm hearing him say "bweh-nəs", not "bwah". --Orange Mike | Talk 01:08, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

• What in the world are you talking about, Jack? The vowel is /e/. μηδείς (talk) 01:14, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

No need to over-react. I am not an ipaphone, and I'm probably slightly exaggerating the difference between the /e/ sound I expect and the /a/ sound I hear. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 01:45, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

Like Orangemike and Medeis, I also here "bweh-niss" in the video. I'm an American who's lived on both coasts and in the midwest, and I've also been living a long time in Europe. I've never heard anyone say "bwah-nos". It would be impossible not to notice if someone said it. It sounds VERY odd. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 01:29, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

Also, it's very clear from his pronunciation of the Spanish words in the video that he has had very little contact with the Spanish language. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 01:35, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

Yes, it does sound VERY odd. Which is why I always notice it, and always wonder why anyone would ever say it that way. But say it that way, they do. Listen at 38/39 secs – bwanos; then at 42 secs – brains; then at 47 secs – bwanos. The /e/ sound in "brains" is completely missing when he says "Buenos". I expect his lack of familiarity with Spanish words accounts for his pronunciation, but that doesn't explain it. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 01:45, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, I have listened to it five times, and still hear "bweh-niss" both times. Nothing resembling "bwah-nos". Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 01:58, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

(random indent) Bway-knows, Bway-ness, Bway-noss...All work for me. -ness is probably what I would say in casual conversation, but it doesn't come up so often that I'd say I have a regular way to pronounce it. --Onorem♠Dil 02:09, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

If we are going strictly by the American guy in the food show, he seems to be saying something between /ɛ/, /e/ and /ɘ/. It's still nowhere near the vowel of father. μηδείς (talk) 02:14, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

Well, to my ears, that's exactly how it sounds. A little shortened, but that's the sound he makes. It is very markedly different from the "buenos" as spoken here. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 02:27, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

To my American ears, it sounds like he's saying "Bwonus Are-ace". Butchering it, in any case. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:23, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

Isn't that a schwa e?165.212.189.187 (talk) 14:39, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

Some speakers might be confusing Spanish "bueno" with Italian "buono".

—Wavelength (talk) 16:04, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

• Jack, can you give a few examples of English words as you speak them that rhyme with what you are hearing in the first syllable of Buenos? μηδείς (talk) 18:05, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

(I never know how to follow an asterisk, but I suppose I'll get over it. Any chance of using a colon or two in future?)

I use the asterisk when I am asking a new question or making a new comment totally unrelated to and hence unindented from the one immediately above. I assume two asterisks or two colons following is fine either way. μηδείς (talk) 20:12, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

Best I can tell you is that this mispronunciation uses the same vowel as the -ua- in Juan. If someone of this persuasion said "Juan from Buenos Aires", they'd be using exactly the same vowel sound (as if it were "Juan from Buanos Aires"). That's how I'm hearing it. But they should be distinctly different. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 19:57, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

Australian low vowels seem fronted to me. Father seems to have the vowel of cat, and cat seems to approach the vowel of seat. So I was wondering if this was just a difference in mapping. But I don't hear "juan" so much as "one" or "when" in that clip. μηδείς (talk) 20:12, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

Aussies have no difficulty saying Wayne or Ben, using totally different vowels from Juan or one. We don't refer to Superman's girlfriend as "Lois Lahn" or "Lois Lunn" or "Lois Len". It's clearly Lane, rhymes with Wayne. So, there should be total comfort with saying Buenos like in the correct example, or reasonably close. What I often hear, though, is something that is not what I would call reasonably close at all, and my glorious quest has been to discover what the root cause of this weirdness is.

But from the above responses, it's clear that what I'm hearing and what others are hearing are quite different things. I can't explain that (my hearing is not perfect but it isn't that distorted). We can't progress this discussion until we can at least get to that first base -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 20:51, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

I do agree that Andrew Zimmern has an odd vowel in the youtube video linked to above, but I'm having a hard time identifying it. It doesn't sound like [eɪ] as in 'pain' or like [ɛ] as in 'pen', though. To me it sounds more like [ʌ] as in 'pun' or [ɑ] as in 'John', or maybe something between them. Angr (talk) 20:58, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

Ah ha! Yes, the [ʌ] as in 'pun' is very close to what I hear, too. Maybe not quite that short, but very much in that vicinity. So, can anyone suggest any other word spelled with an e that's meant to be pronounced /e/ but is actually pronounced [ʌ]? -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 21:16, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

Many Americans, including me, pronounce twenty with [ʌ]. Perhaps it's no coincidence that the ⟨e⟩ is preceded by the [w] sound in both Buenos and twenty, though I definitely have [ɛ], not [ʌ], in Gwen(dolyn). Angr (talk) 21:45, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

Anyone got a sound file or video of the new Pope telling us where he's from? HiLo48 (talk) 21:41, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

I have only heard him speak the Italian and Latin, both with a rather handsome Spanish accent. μηδείς (talk) 22:17, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

What does this Chinese scroll say?

You can view the image here. Thanks! ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 22:50, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

It's a poem by Li Bai and the en translation is here. See the first poem. Oda Mari (talk) 05:23, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

Thanks! ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 03:32, 16 March 2013 (UTC)