Language desk
< November 13	<< Oct \| November \| Dec >>	November 15 >

Welcome to the Wikipedia Language Reference Desk Archives
The page you are currently viewing is an archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the current reference desk pages.

November 14

Unexpected use of "incunabula"

Hi all. On page 515 of Ian Nairn and Nikolaus Pevsner's Buildings of England: Sussex (1965), the word incunabula is used in the context of a building. Specifically: a (locally well-known) 1930s Modernist house is described in the following terms: Halland: Bentley Wood, by Serge Chermayeff. One of the incunabula of the International Modern in England. The only meaning of the word I have come across is the plural of incunable, meaning very early printed materials from Europe. The article notes that its etymology is from the Latin for "swaddling clothes" or "cradle". Pevsner likes his interesting turns of phrase, so I am guessing that he used it as a very flowery way of saying that Bentley Wood was a pioneer or a "founder member" of that architectural style ... what do people think? (I'll be back after some sleep; thanks in advance for your answers/thoughts!) Hassocks5489 (tickets please!) 00:14, 14 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The article also says (in a sentence that you actually quoted part of!) that the word can refer to "the earliest stages or first traces in the development of anything." Looie496 (talk) 00:59, 14 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for pointing that out – I definitely shouldn't edit so late at night! :) Cheers, Hassocks5489 (tickets please!) 12:28, 14 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Old Nick Pevsner could have said "pioneers" instead and we'd have all understood what he was talking about. Alansplodge (talk) 12:57, 14 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

But fortunately he chose to use a more interesting word, and so encourage us to better educate ourselves. The first meaning given by OED is "The earliest stages or first traces in the development of anything", with a citation to de Quincey in 1824, "Falsif. Hist. Eng. Wks. 1890 IX. 300 Here they fancy that they can detect the incunabula of the revolutionary spirit." DuncanHill (talk) 14:59, 14 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

True; it certainly makes the Buildings of England series very readable. Thanks for the OED details. Hassocks5489 (tickets please!) 17:12, 14 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Non-drip gloss paint

What is (what we in the UK would call) non-drip gloss paint called in American-english? I already know that emulsion paint is called latex paint. Thanks. 92.15.7.155 (talk) 15:05, 14 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If I understand your question correctly (not sure about the "non-drip" part), what you're referring to is usually called enamel in the United States. Deor (talk) 16:53, 14 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No, enamel (certainly what our article is about) is not what we call gloss paint. Gloss is what you put on skirting boards and doors. DuncanHill (talk) 17:08, 14 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In the UK enamel paint is a different kind of paint. If its really called enamel, then it would imply that there is little differentiation of the different types of paint in the US.

Gloss paint is used here in the UK for painting wood in houses, both interior and exterior. It is always used with a brush, never a spray-cannister as shown in the picture. Is is usually bought in 2.5 litre cans. Bare wood would require painting with primer and undercoast before painting with gloss. Note that in the UK houses usually have brick walls, but the windows frames are or were made from wood (although usually UPVC nowadays) and you'd paint those with gloss paint. The technical name for non-drip is thixotropic. What do Americans call what they paint exterior wood with? What would be the name for paint that is described here: http://www.homebuilding.co.uk/feature/how-paint-gloss-properly ? The nearest thing I could find to a list of ingredients is here: http://www.duluxdecoratorcentre.co.uk/web/pdf/safetysheets/SDS529.pdf - what would that paint be called? Polyurethane gloss paint is quite common. Here's something about the different types of paint for houses used in the UK: http://www.diydata.com/materials/paints/paints.php 92.15.7.155 (talk) 17:14, 14 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

As I said, we use the term enamel for any oil-based gloss or semi-gloss paint, including those used for painting doors, baseboards (skirting boards), window frames, etc. There are also water-based (latex) semi-gloss paints used for those purposes, but they tend not to be as washable as the oil-based enamels. I can't link to it directly, as it's on the WP blacklist, but see http://www.ehow.com/about_4618401_what-enamel-paint.html. Deor (talk) 18:08, 14 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Oil" - does that mean a mineral oil, similar to 'gasoline', or an organic oil such as linseed oil please? 92.15.7.155 (talk) 18:33, 14 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Oil" in oil-based paint refers to any of the drying oils, traditionally linseed oil, but I believe modern oil-based paints use synthetic oils. The primary practical distinction for a user is that oil-based paints are cleaned up with solvents like mineral spirits/turpentine/paint thinner, whereas water based (almost exclusively latex paint these days) are cleaned up with water. (They differ in other properties as well.) Here in the US, both oil and latex paints are divided into three basic categories based on the final surface finish: gloss, semi-gloss, and satin. Non-drip is non-drip (or no-drip, unless there is a trade name). Thus, as an American, I would call "non-drip gloss emulsion paint" "no-drip gloss latex paint". -- 174.21.243.119 (talk) 19:15, 14 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I've never seen a gloss emulsion paint on sale in the UK. "Silk" finishes are common, but not full gloss. Are gloss latex paints available in the US, and, if so, do they have different constituents to achieve a gloss effect? (Sorry, wrong desk to ask this supplementary question.) Dbfirs 23:49, 14 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Because of the much simplified cleanup, almost all house paints in the US are latex (technically "acrylic latex", as natural latex is no longer used). A search on Google for e.g. "high gloss latex paint" will net you a fair number of links. Oil-based paints are usually reserved for specialty applications, such as painting metal, or exterior applications where high durability is required. Typically, most walls are painted with a satin/flat finish or sometimes semi-gloss, whereas the gloss latex paint tends to be used for bathrooms or walls that are intended to be wipeable. -- 174.21.243.119 (talk) 00:24, 15 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, I'll look out for "high gloss emulsion paint" in the UK. So far I've only seen Dulux water-based masonry paint and an advert for an acrylic gloss water-based paint. Dbfirs 00:48, 15 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Using Wikis to improve student writing - action-research articles?

Dear Wiki help desk,

I am a 6th & 7th grade language arts teacher currently doing a research project. I have used a class wiki last year, but it was primarily a digital filecabinet with some posting of discussions. This year I would like to use the wiki more to improve student writing and document my results. I have searched for articles from educators who have tried a similar project without much success. I wonder if you could recommend any studies, articles, journals that discuss teachers using wikis for student writing and the results they experienced.

Thank you for your help.

mscott1 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mscott1 (talk • contribs) 18:03, 14 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:School and university projects/Instructions for teachers and lecturers may be helpful. ~A H 1^(TCU) 02:43, 15 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

need major help diagramming this sentence.

Please help me diagram this sentence: When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.77.157.98 (talk) 19:01, 14 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It is just a very long preposed conditional subclause. ((When X and Y,) then ((A) requires (B)). Is the most basic structure. I can't be bothered to write it up into a tree diagram but that is the basic structure anyway - the subclauses are pretty standard to map.

Violent macho expressions

I had a wikibreak last week, but my brain never shut down. I had plenty of spare time on my hands, and I got to wondering about expressions like:

hit the road
hit the showers
hit the sack
hit the books
kick back
slam down (food or drink)

These and others are all what I'd call excessively macho expressions. They testosteronistically exaggerate the degree of activity involved, and even introduce an element of violence to what are essentially non-violent activities. There's no literal hitting, kicking or slamming going on. Are these evidence of male domination of the language, and are there counter-examples that suggest female dominance? -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 20:11, 14 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I just wasted three minutes wrapping my tongue around 'testosteronistically'. Thanks. I can't think of any particularly feminine-sounding expressions, though. Lexicografía (talk) 20:22, 14 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If we're going to declare anything violent to be masculine, how about declaring anything to do with feelings to be feminine? Then we get all the figures of speech based on the pathetic fallacy (of attributing feelings to something which has none), like for example "this food wants eating up" (a favourite of my grandmother's). Algebraist 20:34, 14 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

According to EO,[1] the original meaning of "hit" was merely "meeting" or "lighting upon". In that context, a number of the "hit" expressions make more sense. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:35, 14 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Slam" does mean a hard blow,[2] and can be used in a relative sense where eating is concerned: dining in a controlled or leisurely way, vs. gobbling it up. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:37, 14 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

There was a related discussion earlier this year.

(See Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2010 June 20#Is it offensive to say "Kill the lights?")

—Wavelength (talk) 00:44, 15 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

New Testament military metaphors may be of interest.—Wavelength (talk) 07:01, 15 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know about specific examples of feminine-sounding expressions, but I see excessively gentle phrases from time to time. Often they're instructions for something. For example, a microwave manual might say "Touch the 'start' button to start," when it's actually necessary to press the button with moderate force; a cereal box might say "Lift tab to open," when it's actually necessary to pry under the tab and tear it upward. When I read something like this I imagine a television commercial showing a woman with perfectly manicured hands lightly touching the microwave button or gently lifting the tab on the cereal box to open it. —Bkell (talk) 11:45, 15 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

But I years ago noticed where we "press" buttons, Americans seem to prefer to "punch" them. But I second Algebraist's comment: there is nothing masculine in those expressions unless you have already made the equation of masculinity and violence. --ColinFine (talk) 14:36, 15 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, they all seem like Americanisms to me. 92.15.16.149 (talk) 20:14, 16 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It's also possible to "kill the engine". Or "murder a cup of tea". Although the latter locution doesn't suggest belligerent virility. LANTZY ^TALK 15:01, 15 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'll add more to this when I've got some time to kill. :) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:06, 15 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Nuke the food. Lexicografía (talk) 16:31, 15 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Whilst rocking a mustache. LANTZY ^TALK 16:41, 15 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Of course, this stuff varies from one language to another. In Chinese, you can use "hit" for some activities that I don't think we would consider "macho", such as sweeping (打扫), making phone calls (打电话), taking taxis (打的). (You can also use it for wearing a bowtie, 打领结, and for yanking it, 打飞机, both of which are, while maybe not "macho", things that guys do a lot.) I doubt that our respective cultures differ all that much on what is considered "macho" (of course there are specific differences, I'm just talking broadly) and have evolved to reflect that in their language; I'd imagine this is just arbitrary variation. rʨanaɢ (talk) 15:08, 15 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

French has coup de grâce ("stroke of grace").—Wavelength (talk) 16:02, 15 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

But there's no confusion at all about why that term has a "violent" word, given that its original meaning was a move used to kill someone. rʨanaɢ (talk) 18:39, 15 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

See List of idioms in the English language, which is softly redirected to http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Category:English_idioms.

—Wavelength (talk) 16:10, 15 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

See dew in http://www.multilingualbible.com/psalms/110-3.htm and birds in http://www.multilingualbible.com/matthew/6-26.htm and lilies in http://www.multilingualbible.com/matthew/6-28.htm.

—Wavelength (talk) 16:27, 15 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for all the replies. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 19:25, 16 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]