Jump to content

Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2009 November 28

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Language desk
< November 27 << Oct | November | Dec >> November 29 >
Welcome to the Wikipedia Language Reference Desk Archives
The page you are currently viewing is an archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the current reference desk pages.


November 28

[edit]

IPA usage

[edit]

similar words

[edit]

where can i find the explanations/applications of similar words (eg. over/above, recently/shortly etc. etc.) to polish my english. thank you. 124.43.149.51 (talk) 08:08, 28 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

A good dictionary will have definitions of those words and will also give synonyms (different words with similar meaning) and antonyms (words of opposite meaning). ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots08:19, 28 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
For synonyms and (to a greater extent) antonyms, a thesaurus would be better than a dictionary. Mitch Ames (talk) 10:55, 28 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It depends on the thesaurus (which I was thinking of suggesting) and it depends on the dictionary. Some thesauruses explain the different shades of meaning, and some dictonaries give good lists of synonyms & antonyms, but others skimp on them. Some classic manuals like A Dictionary of Modern English Usage, by H.W. Fowler, or the works of H.L. Mencken and Eric Partridge, explain many distinctions that they think important or difficult. —— Shakescene (talk) 11:05, 28 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

14th Century names - "fil'"

[edit]

There is a reference book in my local library entitled "Members of Parliament -1213-1702", detailing the returns to early English and British Parliaments throughout that period. All very interesting, though one element has me scratching my head. Can the Language Desk assist?

There are instances where a device "fil'" is included in a Members name. For example from Wiltshire in the 1300 parliament a member "Petrus fil' Warini", or from the Parliament summoned in York "Henricus fil' Herberti" from Derby. What is this middle element representing?

doktorb wordsdeeds 09:48, 28 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Short for Latin "filius" meaning "son of". --TammyMoet (talk) 09:54, 28 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I love the Language Desk! Thank you very much for your very swift reply! doktorb wordsdeeds 09:58, 28 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
So I would presume that many of those are Latinisations of the very common British surname suffix "-son" as in Williamson = son of William (just to cite U.S. Presidents' names: Jefferson, Madison, Jackson, 2 Harrisons, 2 Johnsons, Wilson and Nixon = Nick's son, out of 43 different men who became President). —— Shakescene (talk) 10:24, 28 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
No doubt. "Herbertson" and "Warrenson" (?) possibly from the two examples found. Though of course spelling and pronunciation has caused many different versions of even these over the centuries :) doktorb wordsdeeds 10:32, 28 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The suffix "s" also denotes "son of", so Williams, Phillips, Johns, Nicks, Wills... --TammyMoet (talk) 12:56, 28 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
As a side note, "filius" was pronounced "fitz" in medieval French, and was very often used by the French conquerors of England and Ireland. The examples could therefore mean "Peter Fitzwarren" and "Henry Fitzherbert." Adam Bishop (talk) 17:42, 28 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
How did "fil" evolve into "fit"? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots19:56, 28 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It didn't, it evolved into nothing, and the /s/ became /ts/. Actually I should say the 'li' evolved into nothing; in Spanish it evolved into /j/. That's pretty common in French, a lot of words are just the Latin word without the middle bit. I'm not exactly sure where the /ts/ came from historically but I guess the 't' compensated for the missing /l/ and /i/ (or /j/). Adam Bishop (talk) 22:54, 28 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Pronunciation of where and river

[edit]

How to pronounce "where" and "river" in American accent? --AisanGiant33 (talk) 10:08, 28 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Wiktionary is your friend! See wikt:where and wikt:river. — Sebastian 10:15, 28 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Which American accent? Boston, Southern? 75.41.110.200 (talk) 14:21, 28 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Way more American accents than that... A8UDI 14:22, 28 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
British and the American east coast and south might say "wheh" and "rivuh". The rest of the USA might say "where" and "river". However, if run together, the east-coaster might say "Where is the rivuh?", while the southerner might say "Whey-uh is the rivuh?" of "Whah is the rivuh?" ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots18:17, 28 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I hear ‘where’ as /weɜ˞/ and ‘river’ as /rivɚ/, but I may be wrong. Mihkaw napéw (talk) 18:29, 28 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I don't do IPA. Can you mention any words that you know of that rhyme? I'm thinking "hair" and "liver", for example. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots19:04, 28 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Where: /w-air/ (w+eh+er) river: /rIv-e*r/ *e is technically upside down, or a schwa... If I could handwrite, I could do it the real IPA way.. A8UDI 19:06, 28 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The right way to say words like "where" and "what" are with an aspiration, as if they were spelled "hwere" or "hwat". They are often spoken without the aspiration, as homophones of "wear" or "watt" (or "wut", except that's not a word). ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots19:10, 28 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Mmmm I dont think that is aspiration.. Aspiration is the breath of air after a STOP consonant, specifically K, P and T. Compare: Top vs Tap. Top has a strong aspiration as you can feel the breath of air, whereas tap is still aspirated, but not as strong. Better: /Pit/ vs /Spit/ A8UDI 19:13, 28 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe I've got the wrong term. In any case, the right way to say "what" and "where" is with a leading soft-H sound followed by a W. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots19:17, 28 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
My dictionary: /(h)wət/ or /(h)wät/. Correctomundo.. i never knew that. But languages evolve. A8UDI 19:20, 28 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
When speaking carefully, people still say "hwere" and "hwat". In casual talk, it's often "wear" and "wut". The latter, when stretched out in real or mock incredulity, is often more like "waaat?" Languages do evolve. "night" and "knight", which are now both pronounced "nite", were supposedly once pronounced "nickt" and "kuh-nickt" respectively. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots19:28, 28 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Try telling the millions of people who don't ever say it the "right" way, that they're wrong. I remember as a child being told this "right" way of saying these words, but it always sounded like we were supposed to be talking like some British aristocrat. Needless to say, this instruction was ignored then, and this latest injunction will also be ignored. -- JackofOz (talk) 19:31, 28 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"Latest injunction?" We're quoting Webster, so it's not very recent. Everyone I know, when not speaking slangily, says "hwat" and "hwere". The right and not-so-right ways can be fairly hard to distinguish. The old expression, "Who, what, where?" is typically pronounced "hoo, wut, wear", for example, and it's hard to hear the difference from "hoo, hwut, hwear". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots19:42, 28 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
There's a similar problem with "whet", as in "to sharpen", as in "whet your appetite" or "whetstone", which are often pronounced "wet". Hard to tell whether sharpening a kuh-nife on a wet stone would work. :) ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots19:45, 28 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Exactly my point. Vast numbers of people make no distinction between the pronunciations of "wet" and "whet", or between "wear" and "where". Certain jokes rely on there being no distinction ("Where's the soap?" - Yes, it does, doesn't it.) Dictionaries are very often unreliable in informing people how to speak, so telling a universal audience such as this the "right" way of saying certain words, based on what some dictionary says, is folly. -- JackofOz (talk) 20:00, 28 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Hence the inter-lingual pun, the Latin expression "semper ubi sub ubi". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots20:27, 28 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
[denting out]— I grew up in London and Providence, R.I., so I thought that the "hw" pronunciation was just an affectation or one of Ezra Pound's many antiquarian-jocular eccentricities, but my Anglo-Scottish mother (daughter of a free-lance contributor to Cassell's English Dictionary) said "hw" is indeed the correct pronunciation. It used to be spelled that way, too, until the kind of well-meaning spelling-reformer who put the "b" (from dubitare) into "dout" came along. There's a tongue twister from theatrical elocution classes that goes (I phoneticise slightly):

Hwether the weather be cold,
Hwether the weather be hot,
We'll be together,
Hwatever the weather,
Hwether we like it or not!

And, speaking of injunctions, let us all be grateful at this time of thanks-giving to a merciful Providence that has so far not made Wikipedia truly multi-media, in the way that Encarta aspired to be. Can you imagine the endless wrangles, probably out loud rather than mediated by the need to read and type, that would arise over Received Pronunciation, newsreader's English and WP:ENGVAR rules for pronunciation? (Should Scottish-related entries be articulated in Lallans and jazz pieces described in generic Afro-American accents, etc., etc., etc.) —— Shakescene (talk) 20:18, 28 November 2009 (UTC) I forgot to mention the broad, rich vistas that a speakipedia would open for vandalism, counter-vandalism and edit wars before those Talk forum wrangles had even begun! Imagine (if you have the nerve) all the possibilities! —— Shakescene (talk) 20:24, 28 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Hm. interesting. Round these parts that poem/doggerel ends "We'll weather the weather whatever the weather, whether we like it or not." Grutness...wha? 23:47, 28 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia has Category:Spoken articles. -- Wavelength (talk) 01:07, 29 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It also has Wikipedia:Wikivoices. -- Wavelength (talk) 02:06, 29 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Historically, the sound usually written 'wh' is an unvoiced bilabial approximant, written [ʍ] in IPA. This is a single sound, that stands in the same relation to /w/ as /f/ bears to /v/: to pronounce it, form your lips for 'w' and blow. I'm not sure whether anybody uses this sound in any dialect of English today: as Baseball Bugs says, some dialects and registers distinguish 'wh' from 'w', but they usually realise this sound as the diphone /hw/. --ColinFine (talk) 20:48, 28 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
These are definitely dialects that preserve the distinction, but not the most numerically prevalent quasi-"standard" pronunciations in either the U.K. or the U.S. (see J.C. Wells The Accents of English 1: An Introduction, p. 228 ISBN 0521-297192). The change of "hy" (often also a single voiceless sound) to "y" (i.e. "human" to "yooman" etc.) is somewhat parallel... AnonMoos (talk) 05:57, 29 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Who pronounces "human" as "yooman"? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots06:02, 29 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
If you're in many parts of the U.S., lots of people... AnonMoos (talk) 06:08, 29 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
A lot of Americans say "ain't", too. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots06:20, 29 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"yooman" is big in upstate New York and surrounding areas, among all ages and social classes. It's a regional thing, not an education or register thing like "ain't". rʨanaɢ talk/contribs 11:33, 29 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I used to have a business-studies lecturer from Lincolnshire (eastern England) who would amuse us by saying "It aint ooomanly (IE "humanly") possible!". Alansplodge (talk) 13:08, 29 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Whine-wine merger is all about distinguishing or not distinguishing 'wh' and 'w'. --Tango (talk) 11:29, 29 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Seem to have a whole article on Phonological history of wh... AnonMoos (talk) 14:05, 29 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Does it mention "coolwhip" though?</obligatory "In popular culture" reference> - Jarry1250 [Humorous? Discuss.] 21:08, 29 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

i would respectfully contest the idea that there is a right and a wrong way to pronounce any words. We live in a multi-dialect world and speech is dynamic. Maybe the way some word used to be said, or how most people say it now. the judgemental factor of right or wrong irks me. how the rest of the USA pronounce river and where must be in several different ways- which one is the right one. In fact the language has changed from its' ancestory(?) and indeed is said differently in several ways here in Blighty and other English speaking countries.--91.125.95.82 (talk) 20:08, 29 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"Whar dat ribber at?" would be the pronunciation used by some especially in the rural South. The Where" gets an "ah" sound. In some areas, again southern or midwestern, "Where" might be pronounced with an "uh" rather than an "eh" sound, and it is considered a regionalism to be avoided in educated speech or broadcasting. Edison (talk) 20:32, 30 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
To me it suggests 19th-century minstrel songs... AnonMoos (talk) 19:14, 1 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sanskrit word for war

[edit]

I've seen a few times on internet 'fact' lists that the Sanskrit word meaning war literally translated to "the need for more cows". This sounds like, well, bull, but is there any evidence to it at all or was it just made up?

Cheers, Prokhorovka (talk) 14:52, 28 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it's an urban legend, as is clear from the fact that none of these websites specify the Sanskrit term they are referring to. Sanskrit has several words for war, such as vignahaḥ, saṃgrahāraḥ, vairāraṃbhaḥ, vairaṃ, saṃgnāmaḥ, yuddhaṃ and, raṇaṃ (from Apte English Sanskrit dictionary) that are variously based on root words suggesting obstacle, enmity, to grab or seize, and even delight; but no reference to cows. Abecedare (talk) 15:39, 28 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Sanskrit also has many words for cow, indeed it has many words for lots of things, and most Sanskrit words have multiple meanings, so it wouldn't surprise me if someone could concoct a homophone that meant both of those things. However I can find no evidence for it in this exhaustive Sanskrit Lexicon.--Shantavira|feed me 16:01, 28 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Apparently the magic word is gavishti गविष्टि gáviṣṭi meltBanana 16:43, 28 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the clarification and link, meltBanana!
Here are the links to गविष्टि gaviṣṭi and गव्यु gavyu in Apte; and to gaviṣṭi and gavyaṭ in Monier-Williams. Interestingly both the meanings ("desire(-ous) of cattle/battle") are traced right back to the Rigved. Abecedare (talk) 06:15, 29 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Fair enough, cheers guys. Prokhorovka (talk) 23:53, 28 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]