Humanities desk
< November 18	<< Oct \| November \| Dec >>	November 20 >

Welcome to the Wikipedia Humanities Reference Desk Archives
The page you are currently viewing is a transcluded archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the current reference desk pages.

November 19

Former seaports?

Besides Narbonne and Pisa, what are the currently inland cities or towns that were once maritime ports in their histories? StellarHalo (talk) 08:32, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Considering the requirements of containerization there must be thousands of former ports up river from the coast, like London and Manchester. Shantavira|^{feed me} 09:13, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I am not looking for river ports since I specifically stated "maritime". StellarHalo (talk) 09:17, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The distinction between riverports and maritime ports can be a bit vague, as many ports are on estuaries. The most seaward point of the port of Antwerpen is 70 km from sea (measured along the shipping lane), on fresh water, but still very much tidal and reachable by New Panamax ships and Ultra Large Container Vessels. PiusImpavidus (talk) 12:16, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Ostia.
Sleigh (talk) 11:54, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

In the Middle Ages, Brugge was an important port on a sea inlet in Flanders. It lost its role in the 16th–17th century due to a mixture of natural and political reasons. Later it dug a canal to the sea to make a new port, then added a port directly on the seashore: Zeebrugge.

There must be over 50 towns in the Netherlands that used to be seaports, but are now lakeports as various sea inlets were dammed off and turned into lakes: Amsterdam, Brouwershaven, Elburg, Enkhuizen, Harderwijk, Hellevoetsluis, Lemmer, Spakenburg, Stavoren, Urk, Veere, Volendam, Vollenhove, Yerseke, Zierikzee (OK, the last two are still on tidal salt water, but it's closed off by a storm surge barrier). Amsterdam can still be reached by Panamax ships. Some other former seaports aren't even on a lake any more, as the sea was completely poldered in: Arnemuiden, Blokzijl, Kollum, Kuinre, Leeuwarden.

Special mention for Emmeloord. It used to be a seaport on a small island in the Zuiderzee. The island was almost lost to the sea and abandoned in 1859, the sea was turned into a lake in 1932, the area surrounding the island was made dry land in 1942, but the port is still there (but not reachable by boat). The new town Emmeloord, founded a few kilometres north of the former island in 1943, also has a port, which can be reached via a CEMT-class I canal. PiusImpavidus (talk) 12:16, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

In the UK, several of the medieval Cinque Ports are now inland. Blueboar (talk) 13:45, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Ephesus in Anatolia was an important port on the Aegean Sea in the Classical period, but the site is now located almost 6 km inland. --Lambiam 18:01, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Articles: river delta, avulsion (river). Rivers tend to transport sediment downstream, which over time piles up and blocks the river outlet, which then "finds" a new path. Ur was where it was because it was a port at the mouth of the Euphrates, complete with canals. Over millennia the Tigris and Euphrates have filled in their delta and extended the coastline quite a ways: see image. Similar goes for other cities in river deltas: Nile delta, Indus delta, Ganges–Brahmaputra delta. The Mississippi River "wants" to jump its outlet into the Atchafalaya River and away from New Orleans. This is currently being prevented by human intervention with the Old River Control Structure. --47.147.118.55 (talk) 21:33, 20 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps Lothal was coastal at one point? --Jayron 32 15:17, 21 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

thesun.co.uk is talking about which figures or instances?

A September end news report in thesun.co.uk says ".. Figures show soccer stadiums become sex assault hotspots when booze-fuelled crowds flock to big games during tournaments. .." . To which figures or instances reports or studies this statement in the Sun might be referring to ? Bookku (talk) 10:46, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

May be this news report ?

Bookku (talk) 12:00, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The easiest way for you to find out might be to contact the bylined journalists of those two articles (their names are hyperlinked) and ask them what their sources were. Some editors here might be reluctant to do it for you because, well, it's The Sun (Feh!). {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.217.47.60 (talk) 16:37, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Sharpe, Amy (April 30, 2020). "Qatar 'covering up women being flogged for adultery cases ahead of World Cup'". Daily Mirror. is clearer, but can't find anything at Human Rights Watch specifically mentioning the zina statistics or that Qatar stopped release ~2012, or where they earlier reported 100 convictions/year. fiveby(zero) 17:36, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Quoting from Wikipedia:Potentially unreliable sources#News media:

In general, tabloid newspapers, such as The Sun, Daily Mirror, the Daily Mail ..., should be used with caution, especially if they are making sensational claims.

--Lambiam 06:35, 20 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yes I know. Crowd abuse is topic of my encyclopedic research and just wanted to crosscheck if any lead or clue becomes available for research. Bookku (talk) 17:48, 20 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Bookku: Have you read Crowds and Power (1960) by Elias Canetti as background material? MinorProphet (talk) 18:14, 23 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

French help needed in crosschecking citation

60th number citation on page 45 of English (translated) title: Revolution Unending: Afghanistan, 1979 to the Present Author Gilles Dorronsoro refers to: '.. Louis Dupree The political use of religion Afghanistan in KH Silvert ..'. I wish to cross verify in Louis Dupree what Louis Dupree themselves say. I couldn't find said title in the name of Louis Dupree in my preliminary search and it makes incomplete case for making request at resource exchange.

Can some one help crosscheck with original French edition 'La révolution afghane' too help confirm referred citation of Louis Dupree is correct one or is there any difference in French version.

Bookku (talk) 13:34, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Which article is this about, Bookku? I can't work out what (if anything) is the title of a Wikipedia article, what is the title of a source, or who is quoting whom and where. ColinFine (talk) 14:16, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

While Dorronsoro's book was published in French, Louis Dupree was an American scholar who only wrote in English, so the quote was was likely translated by Dorronsoro himself if it's present in the book in French. In any case the book is "La Révolution afghane: des Communistes aux tâlebân", Karthala Editions, 2000 ISBN 2-84586-043-9 and is available on Google books (although I'm not sure which citation to search for; Dupree's name only seems to come up in a couple of footnotes). Hope this helps. Xuxl (talk) 14:28, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Xuxl I am looking for details about Louis Dupree's article name and journal details from those footnotes only. I am not getting preview on google books for footnote pages of the French book.

@ColinFine It is not citation number in WP article. I have given citation number from English version of Dorronsoro' book. Because I am looking for those details.

Bookku (talk) 15:58, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Is this what you are looking for? Dupree, Louis (1967). "The Political Uses of Religion: Afghanistan". In Silvert, Kalman H. (ed.). Churches and States. fiveby(zero) 16:18, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I can only find reviews of Silvert's book online, from scholarly journals, and not the book itself. The original publication date is 1963, and that may not include Dupree's article linked by Fiveby above. World Cat does have evidence of a second edition of the book, dated 1967 [1] which is evidently the one that Dorronsoro used. It seems to be present in many university libraries, so that is what you should look for. (ps Silvert is also listed as Kalman H. Silvert, which could help your searches) Xuxl (talk) 16:38, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This? Dupree, Louis (1963). "Tribalism, Regionalism, and National Oligarchy: Afghanistan". In Silvert, Kalman H. (ed.). Expectant Peoples. fiveby(zero) 17:22, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That last article appears to be a different one, from the original edition. Xuxl (talk) 17:27, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The precise citation in the French edition (2000, ISBN 2-84586-043-9), on page 60,^[2] is:

Louis Duprée, « The Political Use of Religion : Afghanistan », in K. H. Silvert (ed.), Expectant People : Nationalism and Modernization, New York, American Universities Field Staff Report, 1967.

--Lambiam 17:40, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

So a citation error by Dorronsoro, and we need to find L'amir envoie également des mollah sunnites pour convertir les Hazâras in either? Off the bat i don't see a mention of Hazaras. fiveby(zero) 18:03, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The Tajiks of Midanam (the fictitious name of a village in northcentral Afghanistan) are primarily Shi'i muslims, but the central government assigned a Sunni mullah to serve the mosque-school compound. Whether or not he served as the “eyes and ears of the king” could not be determined.

(Dupree, 1967, p. 199) is closest is see. fiveby(zero) 18:20, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This must be it. The chapter in which this passage occurs is entitled "The Political Uses of Religion: Afghanistan",^[3] almost identical to the title in Dorronsoro's erroneous citation. Moreover, the book (Churches and States: the Religious Institution and Modernization) has the same publisher (American Universities Field Staff) as Expectant People. --Lambiam 06:24, 20 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Fiveby I think this archive link is the one for citation title identified by @Lambiam. Louis Dupree's essay, I shall read once more though, is not generating enough confidence in me as of now for my purpose of verification. I will try to go through available reviews and alternate source options.

Thanks to all of you @Xuxl @ColinFine @Fiveby @Lambiam for enthusiastic help.

If some of you may be wondering exactly what I was trying to verify, that is statements in the article Slavery in Afghanistan I was all the way looking how far Gilles Dorronsoro's ".. At the end of 19th century.. . The declaration of jihad by the Amir of Kabul and that of Shi'ite ulema in response, was to justify worst atrocities, and in particular the enslavement of a segment of the Hazara population; Hazaras were sold in the markets of the capital as late as the first years of 20th century. The amir also sent Sunni mullahs to convert them. .." statements confirm with Louis Dupree? May be Dorronsoro is referring to some more sources while referring to underline statements for which I may need to visit the other sources he is referring to. But first I will check up any later/ latest sources helpful.

Thanks Bookku (talk) 08:11, 20 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

None of the terms "jihad", "enslavement", "slave(s)", "Hazara(s)" and "market(s)" occur in this text by Dupree. --Lambiam 09:40, 20 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I had a doubt in my mind. Bookku (talk) 17:52, 20 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]