Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2014 August 16

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August 16

Historical Royal "Bride Transfers"

Which cases have there been in which the heir-apparent to a throne dies and the person to whom he or she was engaged or married to marries the new heir-apparent afterwards?

So far, I can think of:

• Catherine of Aragon marrying Prince Arthur of Wales, and then marrying Arthur's younger brother Henry (who was King Henry VIII of England since 1509) after Arthur's death.
• Princess Dagmar of Denmark being engaged to Tsarevich Nicholas Alexandrovich, and then marrying Nicholas's younger brother Alexander (who was Tsar Alexander III of Russia since 1881) after Nicholas's death.
• Princess Mary of Teck being engaged to Prince Albert Victor, Duke of Clarence and Avondale, and then marrying Albert Victor's younger brother George (who was King George V of Great Britain since 1910) after Albert Victor's death.

Were there ever any additional cases such as this? Futurist110 (talk) 01:22, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

• Catelyn Stark from fiction... --Jayron32 01:46, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

They will all be here, Category:Heirs apparent who never acceded. Dig around for those who had wife who remarried to their successors. Also it's not very uncommon even with monarchs, Anne of Brittany married two successive Kings of France and Byzantine Empress often married their husband's successors, even if they were usurpers, ex Maria of Alania and Empress Zoe.--The Emperor's New Spy (talk) 02:07, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

Thank you very much for these links and for all of this info. And for the record, I was talking about real cases, not fictional ones, though thank you anyway for sharing this information about Catelyn Stark with me. :) Futurist110 (talk) 03:20, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

It should be noted, however, that Song of Ice and Fire is basically a British History Mixtape; many of the events in the novels make it a thinly veiled roman a clef for famous and infamous events from medieval and early modern British history. --Jayron32 05:27, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

OK, so which historical figure exactly is Catelyn Stark an allegory (is this the right word to use here?) for? Futurist110 (talk) 05:34, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

Probably a little bit Catherine of Aragon (the betrothed to the older brother, then married to the younger), a little bit Empress Mathilda (the way she supports her son during a time of open civil war). --Jayron32 05:52, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for clarifying this part. Futurist110 (talk) 07:21, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Margaret III, Countess of Flanders, married Philip, the last duke of Burgundy of the first house; he died young and she married Philip, the first duke of Burgundy of the second house. —Tamfang (talk) 09:06, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

At least she didn't have to worry about screaming out the other guy's name in bed... --Jayron32 15:18, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

LOL! Futurist110 (talk) 07:21, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Edmund Tudor

What were the opinions of Henry VII toward his father Edmund Tudor, 1st Earl of Richmond? Did he admire the man, was he ashamed of him, ambivalent, etc?--The Emperor's New Spy (talk) 01:42, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

I read the book The Tudors by GJ Meyer recently; unfortunately it glosses over much of Henry VII; IIRC, Meyer notes that he wishes he could have written more about Henry, but scholarship just isn't there about him. He's sort of the "forgotten tudor", overshadowed by his son and grandchildren. I no longer have the book, but I seem to remember that there was some closeness between Henry and his uncle Jasper Tudor, that it was Jasper who organized Henry's conquest of England. --Jayron32 01:54, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

Just checked some dates. Henry VII likely never knew his father. Edmund was captured and imprisoned while his 13 year old wife Margaret Beaufort was pregnant with Henry. He predeceased Henry's birth by a few months. --Jayron32 01:58, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

You still know about a father even if you are a posthumous child. His mother thought very highly of him and stated she wanted to be buried next to him in her will but her wish was never carried out.--The Emperor's New Spy (talk) 02:00, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

As I noted, though, it seems like the richness of scholarship doesn't necessarily exist for Henry VII in the way it did for other Tudor monarchs. That's not to say your question is unanswerable, but it's less likely to be answerable for that reason. You may want to check out GJ Meyer's work here, perhaps it will help a bit. You may also want to check out the works of Lacey Baldwin Smith who is something of an expert on Tudor-era English history. I've read several of his works, though it's been decades. I also have read some works by Carole Levin and Anne R. Larsen; they tend to specialize in Women during this time period; maybe they have covered something about Margaret Beaufort that could speak to the issue. --Jayron32 02:27, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

Some information regarding Edmund Tudor can be found at Margaret Beaufort: Mother of the Tudor Dynasty by Elizabeth Norton which describes him as "a shadowy figure" who may have been the illegitimate son of Edmund Beaufort, 2nd Duke of Somerset who had previously been denied permission to marry Catherine of Valois. It also suggests that Edmund Tudor was an aggressively ambitious man, consummating his marriage with the twelve year-old Margaret "to the indignation of his contemporaries", in order to legally secure his interests in his wife's estates. This article in History Today adds support to the illegitimacy theory, which it says was "gossip" at the time. Whether Henry VII knew about all this is unknown to me. Alansplodge (talk) 11:58, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

Demographics of police departments across the USA

Where can I find demographic information for the various local police departments across the United States? In particular, I am looking for a comparison between the percentage of African-American police officers and the percentage of African-American residents in the regions the police departments serve.

Yes, this is related to the recent shooting of Michael Brown and the surprising fact (to me at least) that a city which is 65% African-American is served by a police force with only 5 African American officers out of a total of over 50 officers. I was wondering if this was an atypical situation. Astronaut (talk) 15:04, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

This report has some information. Page 4 states " About 1 in 4 officers was a member of a racial or ethnic minority in 2007, compared to 1 in 6 in 1987." This is expanded on with figures and analysis starting on page 14. --Jayron32 15:12, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

I also found This page from the FBI which seems to be a detailed report on police department demographics. I didn't delve deeper into it. But it may help. --Jayron32 15:15, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

The statistics from the FBI are less useful for my question, breaking down the demographics of police departments by sex but not race. However, elsewhere in the FBI statistics, the demographics for those arrested are pretty interesting. Astronaut (talk) 10:53, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

One thing to consider is how much more weight "white-on-black" brutality cases get in the news these last few decades, compared to "white-on-white" or "black-on-black". In the latter, there's no "deeper issue" that papers can explore/exploit through sidebar stories, it's simply "one bad apple". This undue weight on the racial part creates an illusion of distrust, which compels blacks far more than whites to actually avoid/challenge police and policework. The longer this goes on, the greater the odds the officer who beats the civilian purely for the power trip happens to be white, and the greater the chances the story will go mainstream, should the civilian happen to be black.

If this mentality goes away, more blacks will sign up for the force. It will seem like brutality cases also drop, and people will draw a correlation. But the cause of the apparent drop will the now-obsolescence of the ubiquitous racial brutality story, not because human beings have suddenly stopped relieving stress by hurting the powerless humans who had previously pissed them off. Cops have to deal with a lot of extremly infuriating stuff, whether chasing an Indian, being taunted by a black or kicked by a white. InedibleHulk (talk) 20:08, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

I like how you are able to dismiss any notion of racial bias in policing on the basis of no data and the assumption that whites are abused proportionately, but the media has a bias. Could you please not use the Ref Desk for your unsubstantiated, unsupported editorializing? TenOfAllTrades(talk) 22:15, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

I didn't mean to dismiss the racism. It certainly exists, and whites aren't mistreated in equal proportions, just also. But is that because of contempt of black or contempt of cop? Easy to feel contemptful with so many opinions like this. I wrote my editorial small because it was unsourced. Is there something in particular you want substantiated? InedibleHulk (talk) 21:20, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

A better idea than hiring more black men may be hiring whichever women are right for the job. InedibleHulk (talk) 20:12, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

It would be curious to see how police unions intersect with this. Union rules might delay employee turnover and hinder integration, while emboldening the members. I wonder if there are any non-unionized police departments. Anyway, with the busting of public employee unions being a big thing lately, I'm thinking I wouldn't really shed a tear if they had an official lockout in Ferguson and hired a nonunion force from scratch... possible? Wnt (talk) 21:44, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

The Camden County Police Department tried that, after Camden city's force folded. Didn't last long. I think scab police forces could easily be seen as militia organizations in the United States. That might not be wise just yet, considering the actual militia are in town. InedibleHulk (talk) 20:40, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

Does HUJ still have all rights to Einstein's likeness?

I was reading this old news story in which the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, to which Albert Einstein left his papers, was suing a costume store for selling an Einstein outfit, and the costume store asserted that HUJ had not the right, since Einstein died in New Jersey, in which state there's only right of publicity if they exploit their name before they die.

I'm not asking about legal analysis. I'm just curious what was the result of that case, and if HUJ still has all rights to Einstein's likeness. 75.75.42.89 (talk) 15:09, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

Forum Novelties, Inc. v. Greenlight, LLC et al (in which the costume store is the plaintiff, not a defendant) was apparently dismissed in 2011, but the next year in Hebrew University of Jerusalem v. General Motors LLC a California federal court applying New Jersey law ruled that HUJ's rights, if they existed at all, had expired in 2005 (50 years after Einstein's death). -- BenRG (talk) 17:51, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

Bicameral system from The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress

The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress contains a bicameral legislature where the upper house can only repel laws. I've got two question about it:

1. I'm pretty sure there are no real world analogues to something this radical, but is there any real-world upper house that can only reject bills? As in, no power whatsoever to propose new bills?

2. In both Heinlein's fictitious case and the real-world case (if it exists), how could these restrictions on the upper house be enforced? To wit, the president in most presidential systems has no de jure legislative power, but actually has the strongest de facto legislative power. What's stopping the can-only-reject-bills upper house from telling the lower house: "propose this bill verbatim and pass it or else we veto everything"? WinterWall (talk) 17:57, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

Technically, the U.S. system is a variation on the answer to your first question—as I understand it, the President's sole legislative (as opposed to executive) ability is his veto power.

In the Iranian government, the Guardian Council has veto power over all legislation. (It also controls who may run for parliamentary and presidential elections.)

Westminster system governments often restrict the role of their upper house with regard to money bills. In some countries, (Australia and Canada, for instance) the Senate may neither propose nor amend money bills, but can reject (veto) them. In these systems, these bodies do have other legislative powers relating to non-money bills as well, however. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 18:27, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

To the second question, the answer is a qualified "it depends". In most systems, it comes down to relying on a sense of obligation on the part of the bodies or individuals involved. This doesn't always work. The 1975 Australian constitutional crisis arose because the Australian Senate refused to pass budget legislation. In recent years, the U.S. has had a couple of rounds of disagreement between House and Senate leading to shutdown (or near-shutdown) of government by whiny, posturing, right-wing wingnuts.

In the UK, the Parliament Act 1911 puts strict limits on the amount of time that the House of Lords can hold up legislation—but as far as I know, there's nothing which prevents the Queen from withholding royal assent for any bill.

To be honest, I find it difficult to conceive of a political system that can't be 'broken' by a sufficient bad-faith effort. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 18:53, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

The Dutch Senate has no legislative power whatsoever, having no power to propose or amend bills, they can simply reject or pass them. To prevent governmental shutdowns, formation of a Coalition government is required where a number of parties, (typically possessing a majority of seats in both houses) come to a (four-year) agreement regarding a compromise between desired policies of all involved parties. - Lindert (talk) 22:18, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

Archibald Bentley Beauman

I've just written an article on a WWII British Army officer, Archibald Bentley Beauman (1888 - 1977). A couple of points have eluded me, viz: a) where was he born (perhaps London)? b) is he related to Eric Bentley Beauman (1891 - 1989) who was an RNAS and RAF pilot and officer in WWI and apparently a noted mountaineer. If anybody can Google better than I can, I'll be very grateful. I have rather cheekily included Eric as a relative in Archibald's infobox but will remove it if nothing comes to light - je le jure. Alansplodge (talk) 20:49, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

Found some information on Eric and his wife Katherine. Apparently Katherine was a noted historian: [1]. Still looking for Archibald info. --Jayron32 21:29, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

Archibald may have written a book. Perhaps if you can get a copy, it would have info about his family life. See [2]. --Jayron32 21:30, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

More sources on Archibald's life. No connection to Eric, unfortunately. [3] [4]. --Jayron32 21:33, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

This page lists Archibald's father as Martin Bentley Beauman: [5]. And this one may lead you interesting places: [6]. --Jayron32 21:38, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

Here is a pretty good biography of Eric, which gives a birthdate, but does not list any family. Here: [7] is a biography of one Donald Bentley Beauman, he may be a son or nephew of either of these men. Maybe that will lead interesting places. --Jayron32 21:54, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

Who's Who gives both Archibald and Eric as having one son each, but Archibald's predeceased him while Eric's was still living in the 1980s. This seems to confirm Don was indeed Archibald's son. Andrew Gray (talk) 13:26, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

Many thanks for your efforts everyone. I had seen some of those links and used them as references for the article, but others were new to me. The genesreunited link with the newspaper reports allowed me to track down Archibald's DSO citations, so that was particularly helpful. There might be enough for an article about Eric too. The quest continues... Alansplodge (talk) 12:53, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

Definitely brothers - both have entries in Who Was Who. Archibald: "Born 30 Nov. 1888; e s of Bentley Martin Beauman"; Eric: "Born 7 Feb. 1891; yr s of late Bentley Martin Beauman". Archibald is in the ODNB (it doesn't mention siblings, but this is a common omission rather than a clear negative); Eric isn't, but oddly he was a contributor... Andrew Gray (talk) 13:16, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for that. Alansplodge (talk) 21:07, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

Just added some info to the article, the 1891 Census says he was born in Paddington, the son of Bentley Martin Beauman and his wife Estelle, also lists Eric B as his brother and a sister Murial. Needed a bit of work as they are listed as "Baumann". MilborneOne (talk) 18:21, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

Just to add he is listed as Archibald Bentley Baumann in the General Record Office Birth Index for Q1 of 1889 in Paddington, so Baumann doesnt appear to have been a one off error. MilborneOne (talk) 18:26, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

Excellent! Perhaps Baumann sounded a bit Germanic and was changed during WWI? However, his entries in the London Gazette only have one "n". Thanks. Alansplodge (talk) 18:45, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

He was "Baumann" at school in 1904:

Baumann, Archie Bentley ; born 1889. Poster.

Son of B. M. Baumann; Hove Lawn, Cromwell Road, Hove. Army Side. House Eleven Football. Still in School.

I think the Anglicisation theory is plausible - though I'm wondering if "Baumann" here was originally Jewish rather than German per se. Andrew Gray (talk) 18:57, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

I couldn't find much online, but ancestry.com says of "Bauman": "Respelling of German Baumann or Jewish (Ashkenazic) or Scandinavian spelling of the same name." [8] So could be either or both. However, the name Martin is distinctly Christian and the same in German or English. Alansplodge (talk) 19:18, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

Alansplodge: I would not dismiss the possibility of Bauman's Jewish ancestry yet: European Jews routinely used "distinctly Christian" names in the 19th century. Mark, John, Paul, etc. were not uncommon—at least in their Polish, German and Czech equivalents, if I recall correctly. הסרפד (call me Hasirpad) 23:15, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

I stand corrected. Thinking about it, I had a Jewish chum at school called Adrian, which has also been the name of six Popes and several saints. Alansplodge (talk) 16:51, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

It might also be that Martin was of Jewish background but his parents had converted (about the same time as Disraeli's!) - hence a pointedly Christian first name. Andrew Gray (talk) 18:43, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

We may never know. Many thanks everybody; I have updated the article with all the referenced facts that have emerged; we also have an unreferenced article on Don Beauman which I'm going to have a bash at now. Alansplodge (talk) 17:19, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

Resolved

Jokes about nationalities not knowing the meaning of some word?

Is there a generalised name for jokes which rely on this sort of form?

• XYZ is relayed to nationalities A, B, and C.

• Nationality A doesn't know the meaning of X.

• Nationality B doesn't know the meaning of Y.

• Nationality C doesn't know the meaning of Z.

Here and here are two examples of such jokes. --Morningcrow (talk) 21:28, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

Your second example is called "ignorant bashing of the most generous nation on earth". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:34, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

The question has no answer really, especially as both examples aren't really jokes. At least, not funny ones. It's now well acknowledged that around a third of Americans have a passport, up from something 3% in 1989. Some even use them to visit places outside of the US. However, the substantial rise has been attributed to the new requirements at border control with Mexico and Canada. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:46, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

Thanks to BB and tRM for providing no answers and proving one of the punchlines of the second joke- that the USA cares only about the USA. The jokes poke fun at several groups: 3 in the first one, and 7 in the second one. And you both react as if these are about the US? Classy. Nice to see you two getting along though. Staecker (talk) 13:25, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

Could someone fill me in on what any of this has to do with the USA? And what's the most generous nation on earth, Nationality A?? --Bowlhover (talk) 18:50, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

Follow the OP's links. Beware: head may asplode if you're from the world's greatest nation. Staecker (talk) 20:13, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

Germany? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:23, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

One might comment that a nation would be in a pretty dire state if its citizens did _not_ consider it to be the world's greatest. But there may be counterexamples. Tevildo (talk) 22:42, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

Sir Walter Scott did not write: Breathes there a man with soul so dead, Who never to himself has said, "My country is the world's greatest nation". The last bit actually goes: "This is my own, my native land". The concept of "the world's greatest nation" is pretty useless, really. One loves one's country for a range of reasons, which do not include that other silly thing. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 01:10, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

It was Staecker who invoked the "world's greatest nation" phrase here. Hard to tell what he was referring to. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:18, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

It's worth remembering joke 1 is somewhat ambigious anyway. It could be intepreted to mean people in the US are extremely selfish don't know how to que up in a line which would generally be seen as somewhat offensive. It could be see as meaning the US is such a land of plenty no one ever sees lines (which is obviously false) and therefore implies some degree of ignorance and isolation but as with the Western Europe one in joke 2, isn't really that negative particularly compared to the Soviet example. Nil Einne (talk) 14:17, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

Maybe you recall Robin Williams' film Moscow on the Hudson. There's one scene that illustrates that joke well. He's in a grocery store, and is so overwhelmed by the abundance and the lack of lines waiting for basic necessities (in stark contrast to what he was used to in the USSR), that he hyperventilates, becomes dizzy and passes out. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:06, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

I suspect this doesn't have a name, but you could look through Category:Joke cycles for articles about common joke structures. Staecker (talk) 17:19, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

The "generalised" name for such jokes might be "ignorant and unfunny bigoted stereotypes." Edison (talk) 01:47, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

Staecker, thanks for providing a useful link; to be honest that's probably more or less what I was hoping I'd find (and will also allow me to waste even more time reading humour examples on Wikipedia). --Morningcrow (talk) 08:24, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

This type of joke reminds me of the style of comedian Yakov Smirnoff.    → Michael J Ⓣ Ⓒ Ⓜ 04:27, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Horerczy

I was casually looking in the category "German legendary creatures" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:German_legendary_creatures and I noticed the article about Horerczy. To me its name doesn't sound Germanic at all. Maybe Polish or another Slavic language. After reading the page it seems that there is only one author mentionng it. Does anyone have other informations? --151.41.142.56 (talk) 21:52, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

I've nominated the article for deletion. Thanks for spotting this issue. The source used in the article is clearly not reliable and the whole thing is fishy. Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:13, 16 August 2014 (UTC)