Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2014 April 11

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April 11

Conflict of interest

This question is about the Fort Lee lane closure scandal that has plagued the administration of Governor Chris Christie. There is a federal investigation that is being headed by the federal prosecutor's office (Paul J. Fishman, I believe). This is the same office in which Christie himself worked as a former federal prosecutor before becoming Governor. So, is there no conflict of interest in a situation like that? Or even the appearance of one? How is/was this issue reconciled or addressed, if at all? Wouldn't the prosecuting office want to "play it safe" (as much as possible), so that their investigation does not look biased? To err on the side of caution, can't they reassign the case to another office? Any insights on this? Or, perhaps I am missing some key details? Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 00:06, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

I don't think there's a conflict of interest per se, but the different prosecuting styles between Christie and Fishman are discussed a little bit here. 70.36.142.114 (talk) 07:59, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

Great article. Thanks! Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 01:06, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

An "office" can't have a conflict of interest, although individuals within it can. So, if it's a large office and none of the people involved in the current investigation were there when Christie was, that sounds OK, to me. StuRat (talk) 17:00, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

OK, I might buy the argument that there is no actual conflict. That seems debatable, though. But, what about the concept of avoiding even the appearance of a conflict? Presumably, Christie worked with many/most/all of the staff within that office. Presumably, many of the same people are still there. Presumably, Christie has "relationships" with these people (whether good or bad, friends or enemies). No? Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 01:03, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Note that Christie already commissioned his own laughable investigation (Fort_Lee_lane_closure_scandal#Office_of_the_Governor_investigation). I liked the SNL "News" story about it, where he supposedly brought in another "impartial expert" to confirm that investigation's result. She was named Trish Tristie, and was obviously CC in a blonde wig. :-) StuRat (talk) 01:28, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Yes, his so-called "investigation" was laughable. What an understatement! Did SNL do a skit about this? That must have been hysterical. I missed it, though. Do you know if it's on You Tube? Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 03:51, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

It was a bit on their fake news segment, not a full skit, but I'd expect it's on YouTube, yes. StuRat (talk) 04:02, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Fancy French Hotel with Ballroom

A writer friend of mine is asking for information on what fancy hotels in France, Paris or a resort town, would be suitable to throw a masked ball, including, of course, the ballroom. I am totally clueless, so I was hoping someone with knowledge of the country could suggest a name or two of hotels fitting the description and with modern room facilities and a view that I can look up. Thanks. μηδείς (talk) 00:29, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

I know nothing about Paris or hotels therein, but some googling around brings up Le Bristol Paris as a likely candidate. If you check out the reception and conference facilities, it seems to have suitable rooms for such a ball. Plus, Wikipedia has an article about it: Hôtel Le Bristol Paris. --Jayron32 02:11, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

Unfortunately, the Old-World charm of the Bristol means no space large enough for a masquerade ball, although the past clientele (Mick Jagger) is perfect. It's really hard to search for this sort of thing. μηδείς (talk) 02:36, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps you might consider hiring not a hotel in the English sense, but un hôtel particulier - a large French mansion. There are many of these in Paris. Some are now used as hotels (English sense), while others are used as embassies, government buildings, museums or private dwellings. Other options would be to hire a chateau, or one of the nicer casinos. Sadly, I can give no specific recommendation, as I've never arranged such a ball, but googling "hôtel particulier to hire" provided some promising-looking leads. RomanSpa (talk) 06:07, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

It's not entirely clear from the question, but I think the OP's friend is looking for venues for a masked ball to go in a work of fiction, not actually to hire. If this is the case, it would be better to make up a fictional hotel than to use the name of a real one. --Viennese Waltz 09:20, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

Most 4- and 5-star hotels in Paris have venues to host large events such as a cocktail reception, a wedding, etc. This constitutes a very large and lucrative part of these hotels' business. Hôtel de Crillon, le George V or le Ritz are some of the fancier (and more expensive) ones, and there's a whole list of them at category:Hotels in Paris. Smaller 2-star and 3-star hotels that cater mainly to tourists and business visitors would not have these types of facilities however. --Xuxl (talk) 11:40, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the above help. One of my clients is a travel agent, and she suggested the Ritz, the InterContinental Paris Le Grand Hotel, and the Shangri-la. The first is under renovation and no pictures are available, and the second seems to have the biggest ballroom. I have to agree with VW that making one up was a better idea, but the writer wants a venue that people will recognize as real if they've been there. μηδείς (talk) 02:03, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Resolved

Contacting author of article on Martinus Sieveking

Dear friends at the Wikipedia Reference Desk,

I am trying to contact the author of the article on pianist Martinus Sieveking. Could you help me contact him? Here is the message I would like to send him, and the information I am searching for.

Many thanks in advance and all best greetings! Aaron

Dear author of the Wikipedia article on Martinus Sieveking,

I am very interested in finding any existing pedagogical materials written by Sieveking. I have managed to find and obtain the two articles he wrote for Etude magazine in 1915 and 1916, but they only give a brief introduction to his pedagogical method. In the interview with Harriet Brower in her book, "Piano Mastery," he speaks of a manuscript detailing his method that he was intending to publish.

I have been able to find absolutely nothing of his pedagogical method save the Brower interview and the two Etude articles. Are you aware of how I might find other materials? Perhaps he has living descendants? (I was able to find that his grandson Leonard Vincent, a notable school teacher, passed away in 2004, Senta having passed away in 2000. I have not found mention of any other living descendants.)

Thank you in advance for your help and all best greetings! Aaron — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:8071:B181:101:9973:F99C:3FC7:CB56 (talk) 11:33, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

As you can see if you click on the history tab at the top of the article, many editors have contributed. The creator was an anonymous IP editor back in 2005, so it's rather unlikely that you'll be able to contact that person. Clarityfiend (talk) 12:07, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

I suggest you leave that message on the article's talk page (go back to the article, then pick "Talk", at the top). That's where you'll have the best chance to get a reply. You could also try leaving a message on the major contributors' talk pages. StuRat (talk) 14:00, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

Could a state church baptize someone for secular reasons?

I don't care which state church, but state churches in general. Could they, historically, baptize people for secular reasons (such as counting who's a citizen of the country and handing out baptismal certificates as proof of citizenship)? Could state churches perform marriage and funeral services for anyone, regardless of their faith? 140.254.227.78 (talk) 15:41, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

They certainly could, of course. The baptisms seem unlikely, though, as there's no reason to get wet in order to get a proof of citizenship. On the other hand, the marriages and funerals for all makes sense. I believe even normal churches often do that, although they may give priority to those in their own flock. StuRat (talk) 17:03, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

In England, the Church of England has a statutory duty to marry any couple who live in the parish, of any religion, who ask to be married and can legally be married. A special exception was added to allow Anglican priests to refuse to marry previously divorced people, and now a special exception has had to be added for gay marriage. Back when there were no secular or registery office weddings, the way to get legally married was basically state Church of England service, or Quakers and Jews had an exception that allowed them to legally get married in their own ceremonies. Today, those three (Church of England, Quaker, Jews) have a one-stop way to marry, and everyone else has to do a little bit of hoop-jumping before getting married legally in their own ceremonies. 86.146.28.229 (talk) 20:07, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

See Marriage in England and Wales. 86.146.28.229 (talk) 22:04, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

Can a baptismal certificate be used in any country as proof of citizenship? That would be a bit difficult. My baptismal certificate, assuming I could find it, would be from some church in the UK but I have a card that says I'm a Canadian citizen. CBWeather, Talk, Seal meat for supper? 17:55, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

It certainly couldn't in Britain, as not even birth in the country guarantees citizenship if it happened since 1982 - it depends on the citizenship or status of the parents. A birth certificate on its own doesn't prove anything either, as anyone can get a certified copy of anyone else's birth certificate. The only document I have which states I'm a British citizen is my passport. -- Arwel Parry (talk) 18:28, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Now I think about it, I'm the only person in the house with proof of citizenship. I suspect I better go an interrogate the others. CBWeather, Talk, Seal meat for supper? 22:29, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Baptismal certificates historically were the only record of birth in many places. They are still used as documents for some purposes in some places (Philippines [1], Connecticut [2]) Rmhermen (talk) 13:01, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

In Quebec, baptismal certificates were the main form of proof of birth until the reform of the civil code and the obligation to obtain a government issued birth certificate starting in 1994. --Xuxl (talk) 08:36, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

White American culture? Is there such thing and if so, what is it?

Before I begin, I want to let you know that I’m writing this from the U.S and I was born and raised in the U.S, so this question comes from an American perspective because in other countries, from what I hear people identify more with their country of origin than their race or ethnic background. so in countries outside the U.S, there is not much significance about being half this and half that. Also, whenever I use the term white, I mean Anglo-American white, the ethnicity that makes up the majority of the U.S population. Now, to my question.... I’ve come across some people of mixed background saying that they’re proud to be and embrace being “half Hispanic (or the Latin American country that applies) and half white” or “half Jewish and half white,” “half Arab and half white” (or the Arab country that applies), “half Asian (or the Asian country that applies) and half white,” etc. In my mind I wanted to tell them that these ethnicities can be of any race (except for Asians/Orientals which is considered to be a race), but that’s another story. Then I thought to myself that maybe some of these people are mixing up ethnicity with race more for cultural reasons because an ethnicity such as Hispanic/Latino does carry a lot of cultural weight to it in the U.S, like someone who says, for example, that he or she is “half Hispanic and half black,” which means that they can equally identify culturally with both Hispanic/Latino culture and African American history and culture, but of course again, in the U.S, Hispanics and Latinos can be of any race including black. However, it got me thinking about what exactly is white culture (not Italian American culture, Irish American culture, etc., which are specific cultures where people claim to be white and are in general white, but just White American culture in general, I guess the kind with lineages to different European countries.). Non-Hispanic, non-"minority" White Americans still make up the majority of the U.S population still. But since there are people who brag about being half white even though their other half is some ethnicity that can be of any race including white, what is white culture in the U.S and what special significance does it carry? What can be taken from "white culture?" How can someone “act white?” What traditions do White Americans follow? What are some things that White Americans can be proud of, culturally speaking? Willminator (talk) 21:04, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

See White Anglo-Saxon Protestant culture. 140.254.226.226 (talk) 21:16, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

When I think of WASP culture in the USA, it brings to mind things like the old social vanguard of East Coast society during the 19C and 20C, like the Mayflower descendants, Ivy League preppies (who can be from any ethnic background nowadays), groups like Daughters of the American Revolution, etc....the type of folks who would buy etiquette books. But that's actually a certain social class, a subgroup among WASPs. Working-class and impoverished WASPs have their own cultures too, and there are regional cultures to consider like the Deep South versus the Mid West....there are many subcultures among WASPs, which kind of suggests a broader cultural group exists. 99.245.253.81 (talk) 22:03, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

Also see the satirical website, Stuff White People Like. The website is created by a Canadian white person, satirizing what he perceives to be hypocrisies of his own young adult millennial-generation liberal-minded progressive-minded secular Western culture, of which he is a member. 140.254.226.226 (talk) 21:20, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

White American culture is so pervasive in much of the Anglosphere (and beyond) these days, you may have to adjust your assumptions in order to notice it - much like air, or the local accent of the place you grew up. White Americans don't need to have things that they specifically take pride in - there are huge media entities (you know, like Hollywood) devoted to propagating the idea of the awesomeness, but much more importantly the normalcy of White America. And within American Whiteness, it's Anglo-American and German-American norms that predominate. I've never known an American volunteer the information that they're (for example) half-Bavarian, half-Kentish. Those identities have been so completely subsumed into the prevailing current of American Whiteness that they're now only of genealogical interest. A generic white American is far more likely to mention the small admixture of (say) Native American in their background than to dwell on the omnipresence of British and Germanic elements. And this doesn't just extend to genetic and ethnic origins - it's pretty much baked into the contemporary culture. If you drink 'a beer' in the US, it's probably a German-style lager or an Anglo-Indian IPA. Every single US president (including the current one) has been from a partly-anglo background. American common law derives directly from English; Episcopalian and Lutheran churches are widely considered to be generic white-bread places favoured by suburban white middle classes. And so on.

I don't like to be the Brit Bore who always says "you didn't tell us which country you're in" and so on ~ although I'm glad that you did - but the simple fact that a generic person online has until recently been pretty reliably a white American man, and that the leads in almost all our movies and TV shows are white American men has a fairly massive impact on our culture. A friend from California told me that when she went to visit relatives in Edinburgh, a child in the household said "mummy, there's someone at the door who sounds like the telly"; the generic sound of the media here in the UK is not a British accent, but a General American one.

As to 'acting white', it's what white folks like me are implicitly raised to do from birth; the things we're taught to consider 'nice', the media we consume, the food we eat, the slang we use, and so on. It takes us no effort to act white. But we're not the only ones expected to do so - hence the market in skin lighteners, hair straighteners, and so on. It's certainly not something I'm proud of, but I'm part of a hegemonic culture that's held up to others as an unachievable ideal.

Does any of this clarify things? AlexTiefling (talk) 21:26, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

Hopefully, but I've been really doing some thinking about what you and others have explained to me so far, so let me try to understand what you're trying to tell me and imply to me. Let me know whether or not I understood you. "White American culture" is much more broad and difficult to explain than minority American cultures simply because it is the majority culture people live with every day, but it is not impossible to explain. What seems to be implied is that minority cultures are like oasis in the middle of the dominant majority culture in the U.S, and that in the U.S, we can more easily talk about and define what Hispanic American, Asian American, Jewish American, African American and other minority cultures are in general.

From what I tried to analyze by this, second generation or third generation minority immigrants whose both parents come or are descended from a country or countries whose people would be considered ethnic minorities in the U.S, such as Hispanics and Latinos, would normally embrace the culture of their minority ethnic background, but while they would view themselves as an ethnic group of people distinct from the ethnic majority "white Anglo-American" culture, they are willing to adopt (in other words, borrow), but don't embrace nor see as their own, some of the customs and values of the non-minority White American majority more than their parents or about the same depending on how these second generation Americans grew up. Basically they like some of it having grown with it more than there parents, and are willing to borrow from it (kind of like what happens to a limited extent to the cultures of people in other countries because of America's soft power), but they wouldn't view themselves as being part of it anyway. All of this is evident in that they would normally not refer to themselves as just "American" or "White" as in non-minority white, even if they looked like one.

But for those second or third generation American immigrants in which only one parent comes or is descended from a country whose people would be considered as ethnic minorities in the U.S, but the other biological parent belongs to the majority white Anglo-American culture of the U.S, they would normally embrace both the minority and majority cultures and values at the same time and view them as their own, and even attempt to fuse them both in their lifestyles and points of view if they can. They don't have to borrow from one or the other because they view themselves as being part of a minority, but yet, as part of the majority at the same time, and therefore, explaining their claims about being "half ethnic minority (not racial minority), and half White." To these people, "White" may be synonymous to "American" and "White culture" to "American culture." Am I right so far? Continuing with what I was saying, they are more capable with assimilating with both cultures equally without ignoring their minority side. They are like the bridge between the minority and the majority cultures. They can easily catch any misconceptions and ignorance that the majority has about minorities and vice versa. They can tap into what the minority culture thinks and what majority culture thinks. They are much more capable to bring minorities and majorities together.

However, I know that there are other second or third generation Americans who have one minority parent who is an immigrant or completely descended from immigrants, would either refer to themselves as either only being an ethnic minority (Hispanic, Arab, Asian, etc.) when people ask for their background or as "White" depending on which side of the family they really grew up with or if the minority culture and values instilled from the minority parent conflict with the majority culture and values of the other parent in their lives for a variety reasons, including discriminatory and philosophical ones. Did I understand what has been said so far? Did I get anything incorrectly? Or have I over thought what you and others have said? Any details I missed or that I should add? Willminator (talk) 04:47, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

I don't disagree with what you say here, but that wasn't the main thrust of my argument. I don't know a great deal about the specific identifications of later-generation immigrants to the USA. My point was that White American culture is what Americans are expected to belong to when you don't know anything else about their ethnicity. In an American context, all those other ethnic identifications stand in distinction to this huge backdrop of Whiteness, where White English-Speaking Men have their achievements celebrated and promoted not as specific representatives of their subculture, but of the whole of American culture. It's even more pronounced here in the UK, where the ethnic minority groups are smaller, but here we also have US White Culture laid over the top of UK White Culture. It's this omnipresent assumption that White People, without any particular further ethnic tag, are the norm, that makes American Culture what it is. Few people feel the need to take pride specifically in the achievements of White Americans, because the global dominance of America is the achievement of White Americans. Pride in the achievements of one's culture is often motivated by a need to identify with something that is more like oneself, and less like the general background. AlexTiefling (talk) 09:36, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Don't forget Asian blepharoplasty. So many Asian women these days are pressured to have eyelid surgery, upholding Western or "White" ideals of beauty. 140.254.226.226 (talk) 21:36, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

Wow - I didn't know that was a thing. Here in the UK, 'Asian' usually means South Asian, reflecting the different population balance here - a difference which provides two examples of the distorting effect of white culture in one. AlexTiefling (talk) 21:40, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

It is a thing, but pressured by whom? That's an internal pressure as far as I can tell. They do it because "their" culture values it, not because "ours" does. They are just using ours as a reference point. Mingmingla (talk) 21:51, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

On an episode of The Talk a few months ago, host Julie Chen talked about he she was essentially pressured into having work done on her eyelids. She was told that she would need to have it done if she expected to get anywhere in her career. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:16, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

Yes, that's what I meant. I should have included the word "internal", but oh well, it's too late. 140.254.226.226 (talk) 21:53, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

That's just it, though - non-white cultures don't produce pressure to emulate whiteness in a vacuum, but in the presence of an all-encompassing whiteness of the world's most powerful nation, most distributed media, and most feted celebrities. No amount of white liberal hand-wringing from someone like me changes that - and it's not really for me to tell people that emulating my culture is wrong any more than to tell them it's right. But people like me - comparatively rich, white, English-speaking men - have forged a world in which such drives seem normal. And we did so in part by stamping all over the cultures of other nations; in the past we also literally stamped all over those nations, and nowadays our ex-pat businessfolk do so with SUVs and a sense of entitlement rather than with army boots. AlexTiefling (talk) 21:59, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

To the AlexTiefling's initial comments, I've noticed that it is hard to identify a thing that is so pervasive, especially if you are a member of that thing. To illustrate the point, a Canadian radio program once held a contest to help define Canadian culture by creating a statement similar to "As American as apple pie." The best we could come up with was "As Canadian as possible, under the circumstances". We Canadians have traditionally defined ourselves largely as "not American", whatever that means, so we couldn't come up with anything. What does this mean for your question of White American culture? All this is to say that there is a culture, but it's pretty hard to define from inside, and kind of hard even from outside. After all, it's literally impossible to not have a culture. Mingmingla (talk) 21:48, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

Well, as a non-White 1.5 generation American, I would have thought that American religiosity - particularly Protestantism (the idea of being WASP) - would have been very important, and would have thought that if I were to fully assimilate into American culture and embracing American ideals, I would have to convert to Mainline Protestantism or something. 140.254.226.226 (talk) 21:59, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

"I'm interested in the OP's statement that this is about "...Anglo-American white, the ethnicity that makes up the majority of the U.S population". Assuming "Anglo-American white" means Americans with English ancestry, I find it hard to believe that they still make up a majority of the population. Do they? HiLo48 (talk) 22:23, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

Race and ethnicity in the United States may be useful. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:31, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

It appears that the claim is false. It's often mentioned that German-American is the largest specific ethnic group in the US, at 15.2% in the 2000 census. But as a counter to that, it's also often claimed that the American ethnicity is composed almost entirely of Anglo-American whites. If so, that would mean that all British-Americans combined accounted for 29.9% of the population - a plurality but not a majority. However, of those, 10.8 percentage points are Irish and a further 1.5 are Scots-Irish, both of whom might wish to be considered Irish rather than British. This cuts the total to 17.6% - so if even a third of the 'American ethnicity' group were not considered British, German-Americans would indeed be the largest group; if a sixth of the 'American ethnicity' group are German instead of British, the same applies. But in any case, there's obviously no single majority ethnicity in the USA at this level of detail. AlexTiefling (talk) 22:41, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

When I used the term Anglo-American, I had in mind Anglo#United_States. It says that term is also used to encompass all non-minority white Americans. Willminator (talk) 23:16, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

The fact that you can say 'anglo' and be assumed to include, eg, Polish Americans shows just how dominant the generic (British-based) white culture is. And of course any group that is 'non-minority' is by definition a majority. But why do you think hispanics are the out-group and not, say, Irish-Americans, in this context? AlexTiefling (talk) 00:02, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

I think the difference between "Anglo-American" culture and "White American" culture is assimilation. After all, there was a time when Irish Need Not Apply (Except for the Army, where the Irish were thought to be "good soldiers... as long as they are commanded by white officers"). Today, of course Irish-Americans are as much a part of the dominant culture in the US as anyone (although they do form a distinct sub-culture within it).

The US is (slowly) moving towards a society where race and ethnic heritage will no longer be relevant (we are not there yet, but attitudes are changing). However, even then, there will always be a dominant "American" culture (there is in any society). What is interesting is that the process of assimilation is a two way street... as different groups assimilate into that dominant culture, the dominant culture changes and adopts bits and pieces from the "minority" cultures of these groups. Blueboar (talk) 00:53, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

I know very little about North American culture, but you might want to go through www.zompist.com/amercult and then guess for each point if it is much more (or much less) pronounced in "whites" than in non-"whites". The list hails from the 1990s and may be outdated. 82.83.91.149 (talk) 01:35, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

There are some strange items on that list: knowing the Beatles and Rolling Stones makes you American? Watching Star Wars? (Also rock and science fiction could be taken as white markers over hiphop/soul and "black films") 75.41.109.190 (talk) 16:40, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

See culture. The list itself also comes with a preamble that should explain a little. 86.146.28.229 (talk) 17:43, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

NASCAR? --Soman (talk) 12:50, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

• Has the OP ever lived with black people, or seen the original movie Hairspray (1988 film)? μηδείς (talk) 22:12, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

As a white American, I'm not sure that there is such a thing as a single white American culture. The only things that white Americans have in common are things that they also have in common with Americans from other ethnic and racial groups, such as a media environment, a built environment, expected norms of public interaction, the basics of North American English, and so on. Aside from those, there are substantial differences along class, regional, and ethnic lines. I think that the sharpest differences are those along class and regional lines. A wealthy white person from Boston or Manhattan is going to have a vastly different culture from a working-class white person in, say, Alabama, and in fact, the working-class white person in Alabama might have more in common culturally with a working-class black person in Alabama. The closest thing to a national "white American" culture might be the general culture shared by college-educated white professionals who expect to be regionally mobile or at least deal with peers from different regions. That is probably the culture of most American Wikipedians, but in fact it is probably the culture of a minority of white Americans (the majority being lower middle class or working-class and regionally bound). That said, I don't think that this culture is really exclusively white. I suppose that this is more or less my own cultural milieu, and I feel that I have more in common culturally with my black college-educated professional colleagues than I do with, say, the working-class family of my white spouse. Marco polo (talk) 02:09, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

There was some trepidation when it came time to tell my (white) grandmother that one of her grandsons had married a black girl, and they were expecting. Her response was "as long as the baby comes out Catholic..." I think the premise here ignores the reality and sole reality of individuals and mistakes cultures and collectives for real things. μηδείς (talk) 03:19, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

See [3] 71.98.168.39 (talk) 21:33, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

comparison by design

I remember seeing a comparison design on either CafePress or Zazzle. The design was for how many days it took to capture the Tsarnaev brothers compared to that of Osama Bin Laden. When I tried researching the design on both websites, I couldn't find it. Where else is another alternative?142.255.103.121 (talk) 21:30, 11 April 2014 (UTC)