Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2012 December 3

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December 3

Fasting on 13, 14 and/or 15 day of lunar month if falls on Friday

Prophet Muhammad said that you don't fast on Fridays but what happens if the 13th, 14th or 15th day of the lunar month falls on Friday, do we fast on those days or not? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Donmust90 (talk • contribs) 01:03, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

I note you say "we" in your question. I think you need to talk to your imam and get his advice about fasting, as it may vary from sect to sect, community to community. --TammyMoet (talk) 10:32, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

This article addresses your question, but Tammy is right that you might want to ask your imam. Marco polo (talk) 14:54, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

days of shawwal to fast

Which days of Shawwal (e.g. 3, 4, 5, 6, or 7, etc.) do Muslims fast on after Ramadhan because I was told that they don't fast on the day that immediately comes after Eid ul Fitr? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Donmust90 (talk • contribs) 01:05, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Our article Shawwal seems to do a decent job of answering this. Some begin the day after Eid but not all do and there's no consensus on whether the days even need to be consecutive although most appear to think they don't need to be. The linked source doesn't work but it's easy to find sources discussing this with a simple internet search for 'shawwal fasting' [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7]. In terms of the day after Eid ul Fitr as you can see from the earlier sources most only seem mention the day itself, [8] which comments on the forbidden days does the same as does [9] which specifically mentions they have no evidence of it being forbidden to fast the day after. Some sources mention two days [10] [11], but if you read them carefull they are referring to Eid al-Fitr and Eid al-Adha. Most interpretations also seem to agree fasting during Shawwal (or the 6 extra days) isn't wajib/obligatory so I'm not sure what percentage of Muslims actually observe the practice. Nil Einne (talk) 11:51, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

error in article on German census?

Greetings,

 While perusing the census dates map in this article;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Census_in_Germany

I noticed that it seems to imply that the US hasn't had a census since 2004. I was under the distinct impression that I had responded to one in 2010. Am I reading the map wrong? Color confusion? 108.249.33.21 (talk) 07:39, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

The map was first created in 2008, and probably was just never updated to show the US census. StuRat (talk) 07:49, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

I've fixed the map labels to address the error. Unless they are committed to updating articles at least once a year, Wikipedia contributors really should not use words such as "since" or open-ended prepositions such as "after". The present will be the past. Marco polo (talk) 14:45, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

I reverted your changes as they made the situation arguably worse. If you look at the history of the map, people have been updating it since after 2008 (I'm not sure how StuRat missed this)(sorry StuRat misread your comment based on Marco polo's changes). I updated the US (at least I think I did, I initially missed out Alaksa). In truth I'm pretty sure the map is a mishmash of updated and non updated countries, e.g. it sounds like it hasn't been updated for the 2011 EU census. But clearly saying before 2008 is misleading when some of them are censuses after 2008 and the most recent one before was before 2005. It may be best to make a new copy (the map is used in other wikipedias so reverting in situ may be a bad idea) and leave it at a map which is hopefully accurate for 2008 and wait until someone updates it entirely for a new time period (say 2009-2012). In fact if someone plans to update it entirely, it may be better to start from scratch for a new version using SVG which should be easier to update if designed properly. The alternative is simply to remove it from our article, it's rather strange having it in the German census article, I think this arose because it originated from the German wikipedia but I'm not sure (didn't check properly). It would make more sense in the census article or something similar. Nil Einne (talk) 15:50, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

If the map cannot have accurate labels, then it cannot be accurate. The map is clearly inaccurate in suggesting that the United States has not had a census since 2004. We should not be displaying inaccurate media in articles. Unless the map can be made accurate for some date (whether that date is 2008 or 2012), it should be deleted. I am posting this here, since the discussion started here, but I will also post this on the article's Talk page. Please let me know if you see any reason why an inaccurate map should not be deleted from an article. Unless someone is able to update the map to make it fully accurate, I intend to delete it. Marco polo (talk) 16:21, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Oops, so sorry. I missed your comment that you had updated the US as displayed on the map, and also missed the updated map in the article because I didn't refresh the article in my browser. As far as I can tell, the map is now accurate. Thanks, Nil Einne! Marco polo (talk) 16:35, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

I don't think we should keep that map. If we do so, we are committing ourselves to update it every time any nation on Earth does a census. That's a bit much to ask of us, especially since it's only used (in wikipedia.en) for the German census article, and not needed there. I'd remove it from our article and "cut it loose". If other Wikipedias want to maintain it and use it, that's up to them.

I also can't stand the colors used in that map. With only 5 colors, they ought to be able to find colors more different than the ones used.

If we do have a real need for that info, say in our general census article, then I'd present the data as a table, instead. This allows anyone to update it, not just the few who know how to update pics. (Even better, if we have the technology, would be if we could have a map which is automatically generated from a table, so anyone can update the map, too.) StuRat (talk) 17:56, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Of all geographical misconceptions...

Why on earth do so many people think that Africa is a Sovereign State? Legolover26 (talk) 15:45, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

What makes you think "so many people" do? --Viennese Waltz 15:49, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

I have met "so many people" who in conversation have implied that Africa is a country. And in my experience, probably more people I meet who are talking about Africa call it a country and not a continent. Legolover26 (talk) 15:53, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Simple ignorance. I bet even more people think that America is country too. Ah,.. even Wikipedia thinks it might be a country! Oh well.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 16:07, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

[edit conflict] You must be in the United States. Ignorance of geography is widespread in the United States. I think it is just an aspect of American culture. Many Americans are not interested in the geography of places they don't intend to visit, most Americans never leave the country, and they aren't required to know world geography to finish school. Most don't really care if Africa is a country or a continent. They may assume it is a country because they don't know any African countries. American news sources often compound this misconception by giving "Africa" as the location of an event, rather than the name of the specific country as they would do for events in Europe, Asia, or even Latin America (though sometimes Latin America is reduced to Mexico, Central America, and South America). Marco polo (talk) 16:08, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

As for America, we've been through this on this desk before, but America is an accepted English-language short-form name for the United States of America. It is analogous to the use of Britain for the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. In ordinary English, short forms such as these are permissible. The correct English term referring collectively to North and South America is not America but the Americas. Marco polo (talk) 16:12, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

I haven't seen a recent one, but this story indicates that the amount of geographic ignorance, especially in the United States, is immense. (Which makes it a favorite topic for the Jaywalking segment on the Tonight Show.) Over 90% of respondents age 18-24 could not find Afghanistan on a map of Asia in a 2006 Roper poll. I suspect that those who think that Africa's a country might not be able to identify it on a world map, either. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 16:14, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

It's widely rumoured that 20% of USAmericans can't even find the US on a map as highlighted in a rather infamous video with Caitlin Upton an arguably worse statistic* then the inability of 90% to find Afghanistan. However the claim appears to be in doubt. An actual figure for young Americans is 6% can't [12]. * = It's obviously a lot lower, but it's their own country and not particularly hard to find. Nil .Einne (talk) 16:52, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

• This is a reference desk, not an internet forum for bashing stupid Americans any more than it would be for linking to stories about arrogant Europeans or whatever. μηδείς (talk) 17:44, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

This question is a loaded one. I don't believe many people think that. Equally, I don't believe many Americans are more ignorant about geography than in other countries. Obviously everyone knows the geography of his own area what implies that European will know about more countries than Americans or Australians. OsmanRF34 (talk) 18:20, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

It's not bashing if it's true.... At least it looks like it was a few years ago, the most recent timepoint I could find data for in a quick search. See for instance these stories from 2006 and 2002. The relevant quote from 2006, discussing the 2002 study reads: "The 2002 project also surveyed 18- to 24-year-olds in Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, Mexico, Sweden, and Great Britain. The U.S. trailed every other country in that survey, except Mexico, which did only slightly worse." Other sources for this include the BBC and CNN. These studies included questions that were world-wide, so Europeans would not have had an unfair avantange, and that would also not be the case for Japan. Now, this was what I found after a 2 min search, and I stand to be corrected if someone else digs out sources showing the opposite, but don't call something bashing if there is data suggesting otherwise. EDIT:I've just seen that this story is already linked to above, poor reading on my part. Fgf10 (talk) 18:51, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

That's not all that bad, it just puts the US 7th of 8 nations with high education standards. Presumably, if you included all the third world nations, the US will beat most of them. It's not great news for the US, but not horrible, either. And probably everyone agrees there are more important things to know, like how to read. StuRat (talk) 18:56, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Right, because all those people in Europe who know the map better than Americans also don't know how to read... --Jayron32 19:13, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

As for why people might think that about Africa, particularly, it's due to it having a large number of nations, most of which have little international influence. Asia also has a large number of nations, but some are quite influential, like China, Japan, and Russia. The same is true of Europe and North America. South America is somewhat similar to Africa, in that no one nation stands out above the rest, although perhaps Brazil does. Australia only has one nation, and Antarctica none, so those are simple. StuRat (talk) 18:50, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Sorry no reference, but I recall that after the 2008 U.S. Presidential election some advisors of John McCain claimed that his choice for vice president, Sarah Palin, thought that Africa was a sovereign country. Based on that, it wouldn't surprise me if a substantial fraction of Americans think that too. Incidentally, I've always assumed Jay Leno's Jaywalking segment is scripted -- that they tell the passerby what to say if he wants to be seen on the Tonight Show.Duoduoduo (talk) 19:07, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Then there's the fact that that there are Italian Americans, Irish Americans, German Americans ... and lots of African Americans. The first three are countries, so ... Add that to what Marco Polo said about news events often being described as occurring in "Africa" rather than Lesotho or Chad or Ghana or wherever, and hey presto. But it must go deeper than that. If the news sources don't specify the country, it must be because either (a) they neither know nor care, or (b) they think their audience would neither know nor care - and that says a lot about what people are taught, and what they're taught to be interested in. Do kids collect stamps anymore? There's no better way of learning about foreign countries and a smattering of foreign languages than acquiring a pile of assorted international stamps and having to work out where they're from and discover whether those countries even exist anymore, and if not, what ever happened to them. Fiume, Trucial States, Ubangi-Chari, Cochin China and so on - I would never have heard of these defunct places had I not been a committed philatelist in my younger days. Same goes for an interest in coins and flags and maps. They reveal so much about the world we live in, and they're all related, vexillocartophilatelonumismatologically speaking. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 19:17, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Geez, Jack, are you sure you want to admit to having committed philately on a public forum like this ? :-) StuRat (talk) 19:47, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

To Medeis, I am an American myself and did not mean to "bash" my countrymen and -women. I don't think acknowledging a weakness is the same as bashing. And the problem is not exclusive to the United States. A few years ago in Tanzania, I had to explain to a young Tanzanian that the United States was not in Europe. Marco polo (talk) 19:24, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

My visiting Australian cousins were amused to be asked (more than once) if they would be "going to Europe" while they were staying in England. Quite right too - Europe is that funny place on the wrong side of the Channel. Alansplodge (talk) 21:09, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

"FOG IN CHANNEL, CONTINENT CUT OFF"... -- AnonMoos (talk) 03:12, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Americans have the National Geographic Bee. See National Geographic Bee - National Geographic.

—Wavelength (talk) 20:00, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Ignorance about the cultural and historical differences of countries in a region doesn't only affect Africa, but in the Western mindset is still a special case. The percentage of Americans or Europeans who would attribute anything as "typically Togolese" or "typically Namibian" would be extremely small, whereas quite a few people would at least cough up a few stereotypes about Brazilian samba and football, Inca ruins in Peru, Mexican enchiladas and tequila and Cuban salsa and revolution. Likewise quite a few Americans would associate Switzerland with cheese and banks, France with wine and rude waiters, Spain with bullfights, etc., and quite a few Europeans would be quite well versed in knowing something about the cultural differences between New York and Texas. I think the assumption of Africa as a big homogenous bloc has somewhat to do with the whole Berlin Conference thing, compounded with general racist stereotypes.

The fact that the borders of Africa were drawn in Europe, cutting across linguistic, ethnic and religious communities, led many people to assume that nationality would be secondary to Africans. However, this shows a quite weak understanding of the relationship between citizenship and nationality. Over the decades of independence, national cultures and national polities have developed in Africa, whereby people do identify strongly with their nationality, and whereby some cultural features of some of the ethnic and linguistic groups of the country become identified as the mainstream culture. The case how Wollof developed as the de facto national language of Senegal or how the ivoirité idea developed in the Ivory Coast are a clear indications of this, but other examples can be found across the continent.

To some extent, pan-Africanists and civil rights activists are to blame for this. In the African diaspora, there have been many attempts to focus on racial identity (relevant as the discrimination in the US was on racial grounds, and the fact that most African Americans had completely lost their original language, religion and ethnic identity) as opposed to parochialisms of language and ethnicity. The creation of African American identity sought to unify all people of African descent also portrayed Africa as a quite homogenous place, thereby stressing the links between the diaspora and an imagined mystical heimat. A clear example is the usage of Swahili words in Black activism in the US, in spite the fact that the African American population is overwhelmingly of West African descent. --Soman (talk) 08:35, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Excellent points. When we say Irish-American, Italian-American or African-American, they all sound like country names. It occurs to me that the fact that it's a news item when somebody gets it wrong, suggests that it's the exception rather than the rule. (At least I hope so.) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 09:27, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Soman gives an excellent answer here. Very well explained and quite wonderful. Thanks for that! --Jayron32 13:38, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Thanks! --Soman (talk) 20:31, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Agreed. A comment from the UK here - I think we may be a little bit better informed, partly because of our colonial history - so that most people know that Nigeria is a different country from Kenya, is a different country from South Africa, is a different country from Uganda, etc.; and partly perhaps because of sports - we're conscious of athletes from Ethiopia, footballers from Cameroun and Ivory Coast, etc., perhaps to a greater degree than those of you in the US. Ghmyrtle (talk) 14:47, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

I don't see the Western as more ignorant towards geography than the others. However, depending on the origin, people don't tend to see or even know that there is a difference between citizenship and nationality. They both tend to be the same in America and in Europe. OsmanRF34 (talk) 14:50, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

What frustrates me in this area of knowledge is people who are ignorant about their ignorance. I know that Africa isn't a country, but I couldn't, with any confidence, name all the countries within Africa, nor pick all of them out on a map showing borders but not names. I would get maybe half of them right. But I KNOW that's the limit of my knowledge. People who are confident to declare that Africa is a country are showing a double level of ignorance, and it annoys the crap out of me. HiLo48 (talk) 15:35, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

I don't believe there are many people who believe Africa to be a country. It has become an Internet meme, once Sarah Palin asked if South Africa is also part of the country. Maybe she thought that there's a country called Africa (like the continent), and a South Africa, which is not a part of it, on the South. Who knows. OsmanRF34 (talk) 15:42, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Actually, I think that if you asked people in the United States "To the best of your knowledge, is Africa one of the countries of the world?" I think the number who answer "yes" would exceed the number who answer "no". Marco polo (talk) 16:41, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Possible. But until your assumption gets corroborated by facts, it's only speculation. Although I don't deny that some people will get confused here. They are probably thinking since America is a country and a continent, and South America and South Africa are both countries, then there could be a country called Africa somewhere. 17:37, 4 December 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by OsmanRF34 (talk • contribs)

Hold on... when did South America become a country? (Isn't it a was a colony of West Europe... or is it independent now?).

This reminds me of an entry I saw in an early twentieth-century directory from (what is now) Belarus: "Winnipeg, Manitomba [sic], Africa". הסרפד (Hasirpad) [formerly Ratz...bo] 03:46, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

That should have pride of place on the bookshelf alongside English As She Is Spoke. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 22:05, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

1918 influenza epidemic in Tahiti

How many people died during the 1918 influenza epidemic in Tahiti? What is a good and detail account (books, newspaper, etc) about the event? I just know a lot of the Tahitian royals and chiefs died during this year because of it. --KAVEBEAR (talk) 17:39, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Are you aware that this was a worldwide event? Have you looked at 1918 flu pandemic? Looie496 (talk) 19:15, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Third hit in a Google search for tahiti flu epidemic points there, too... --jpgordon^{::==( o )} 19:56, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

The search is complicated because of a severe outbreak on a troopship called the HMNZ Tahiti. However, I found The Mercury (Hobart, Tasmania: Friday 27 December 1918. INFLUENZA EPIDEMIC - THE OUTBREAK IN TAHITI. SEVENTH OF PEOPLE DEAD.. The Pacific Islands: Environment & Society edited by Moshe Rapaport (p.258) quotes figures in terms of increased death rate. Finally, The New York Times: TAHITI BUILDS PYRES OF INFLUENZA DEAD; Seventh of Papeete's Population Succumbs and Bodies Feed Steady Fires. Alansplodge (talk) 13:59, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

I've been moved to write an article about the abovementioned RMS Tahiti which was quite an unlucky ship. Beached by an earthquake in Jamaica (1907), one of the worst single flu outbreaks ever recorded (1918), ran down a ferry in Sydney Harbour killing 40 (1927), and finally sank herself when her own prop shaft smashed a big hole in the stern (1930). Alansplodge (talk) 18:45, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

Do we know any death tolls from the epidemic specifically in Tahiti?--KAVEBEAR (talk) 20:01, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

At least 14% of the Tahitian population died as a result of the 1918 Spanish flu epidemic. Google it. I tried posting a link to the website source but for same reason Wikipedia wouldn't allow me to do this. Futurist110 (talk) 22:30, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

public access to criminal records

Does anyone know how one might go about getting the arrest or other court records of Hector Camacho from Florida or Mississippi? (I am interested in confirming his legal name.) Or whether such records are generally available to the public from the state on line? My searches all lead to pay sites that offer information like unlisted phone numbers and so forth. Thanks. μηδείς (talk) 17:49, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

There are pay sites that include criminal records, aliases, etc. They may be public records, but this doesn't mean they are made available online for free. StuRat (talk) 17:58, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

What makes you think that Héctor Luís Camacho Matías was not his legal name? OsmanRF34 (talk) 18:05, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

What I want to confirm is if he was ever referred to as Héctor Luís Camacho Sr. (It's unlikely the matronymic Matías will be used in American legal records.) Our article says that senior is his father's title. But the German article has the dead boxer's article named Hector Camacho Senior. Except for boxingscene, which I believe is a wiki, and is certainly not a reliable source, I have not seen Camacho referred to as senior in a good source. μηδείς (talk) 19:01, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Presumably he added the title "Senior" only after having a son with the same name. StuRat (talk) 19:42, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

I don't think you can appropriate the title like that. If his father was 'senior' as implied above, surely he would be 'junior' and his son would be 'the third'? Calling himself 'senior' as well would surely cause ambiguity with his father? – NULL ‹talk›
‹edits› 04:54, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Not if his father was dead by then. StuRat (talk) 05:05, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

You have to find out what specific court he went to proceedings in, and then visit that court's website or call the court directly to find out how documents are accessed. Some courts put the records online, and others must be visited in person. Even in criminal cases for adults, however, certain documents may be sealed from the general public. Someguy1221 (talk) 04:48, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

The grandfather and grandson are still alive. I saw a caption in a video interviewing the grandfather which referred to him as senior, but haven't been able to find it again. Of course the titles don't change after death. John Smith III doesn't become John Smith II or Junior when his grandfather dies. I am hoping any court records will specify the title to differentiate him from his relatives of the same name. μηδείς (talk) 17:39, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

M. Brun

Who was the Protestant pastor of Tahiti by the name of M. Brun during the 1880s? I am getting a person by the name of Prosper Brun or Le Brun, which one is it? A full name, some dates and details will be helpful.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 20:59, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Everything I’ve found is Prosper Brun, who was posted in Tahiti/Moorea from 1872 to 1900 per this book (page 90 gives the dates). Portraits of him and his wife are catalogued here and here. He’s also mentioned here, page 48 and the initial P is further confirmed in the listings here, p 136 and here, p 203. 184.147.123.169 (talk) 14:31, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

In case this isn't obvious, one use of "M." is as the abbreviation of Monsieur (as in "The Facts in the Case of M. Valdemar"). Deor (talk) 17:35, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Name of a famous company

This question is part of which famous company’s interview process 'If your flight got cancelled, and you were stuck in the airport for a few hours with this guy or this girl, how happy would you be about that?' What name is given to it? please help me with this...Thanks in advance! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Linkinfloyd (talk • contribs) 23:50, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

I believe you're referring to the Airport Test interview question. It's used by many companies. – NULL ‹talk›
‹edits› 05:00, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

What's that supposed to test? How flexible you are to change or unexpected consequences? Dismas|^(talk) 10:15, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

That seems like a reasonable assumption. "How do you handle the unexpected?" There's probably no "right" answer, but it's an indicator. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:13, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

It seems that the Airport Test is not only a brain teaser. The Airport Test (How to Ace that Interview) suggests that it can also be a sort of filter used by the prospective employer, to weed out the boring or intolerable applicants. The Student Branding Blog - Interviewing: the Airport Test supports that usage; the interviewer wants to find out "if my colleagues had to spend hours at the airport with me, would I be someone that they would want to engage with?" IBankingFAQ... become an investment banker says "The primary use of fit questions is for the interviewer to make an assessment of whether you have the right attitude and skill-set to be a successful investment banker. Most importantly, interviewers will want to understand why you want to be a banker and whether you are someone they would want working FOR them. The secondary purpose of fit questions is to assess whether you are someone they would want to work WITH. Some refer to this is the airport test. How would they feel if they were stuck in an airport with you for 4 hours?" Alansplodge (talk) 13:23, 4 December 2012 (UTC)