Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2011 November 27

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November 27

One aspect of capital punishment

The capital punishment supporters sometimes like to ask the opponents a sort of what they would do if one kills the entire family of a capital punishment opponent or inflicts some other blow of similar scale upon capital punishment opponent. What the opponents typically reply in such cases? --178.180.78.140 (talk) 00:39, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Something to the effect of the uncivilized desire for vengeance being what the judicial system is designed to overcome. StuRat (talk) 01:00, 27 November 2011 (UTC).)

The justice system may have got the guilty verdict wrong. (It happens far too frequently.) Society killing somebody, for whatever reason, doesn't help the argument that killing is wrong. HiLo48 (talk) 01:48, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Have you googled anything on this subject? Surely there would be some references somewhere. However, it's worth pointing out that if someone's support or opposition to the death penalty is based on their emotions or what affects them personally, then they are much more likely to waiver than if it's based on a moral principle. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 06:51, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

The answer I think is the most honest and considered is, "you know, I don't really know what I would do, because I've never been in that situation. But it doesn't really matter what I personally would do under such extreme duress. My current position is the one I consider to be correct, according to my moral reasoning, or according to my judgment of the most effective policy, as the case may be. The fact that sufficiently trying circumstances might change my mind might mean that my personal character is not as strong as could possibly be hoped, but it does not render that reasoning or that judgment incorrect." --Trovatore (talk) 09:50, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

They typically say something like, "I would be devastated, but executing the criminal would not bring them back." That rhetorical question isn't a very good one for the capital punishment debate, however. It is not the victims who are punishing the criminal, but society represented by a panel of jurors. The example of killing your family isn't very good as usually there has to be something brutal like raping the victim's child in front of them before dousing them in gasoline, torturing them then burning them alive as what recently happened in Connecticut. Professor Robinson of the Upenn Law School teaches a unit on the death penalty using the example of the Murder of James Byrd, Jr.. It is a particularly gruesome example, but the article fails to state that what people found outside the black church was a torso with one arm. Missing were Byrd's head, legs and another arm. Forensics also believed he was conscious and alive for several miles as he was dragged from the murderers' pickup truck. What usually gets people in this example is that the defendants were void of any sort of sympathy. Of the two defendants who received the death penalty, both had served prison sentences before indicating they were a danger to society. Both wrote letters claiming how glad they had killed the "ni--er," and they both belonged to Nazi sympathizing white supremacist groups. Indeed 13 years after the murder of Mr. Byrd, defendant Brewer stated that if given the chance he would do his crime again: that is brutally beat Byrd with a baseball bat, chain him to a pickup truck, urinate on him, drag him behind the truck for several miles until most of his limbs were severed, then deposit what little was left of the body in front of a black church. Greater than a majority of those polled believed that the death penalty was warranted in this case. The question is whether the minority can impose their moral beliefs on the majority without the use of democracy, but with the ruling of a judge. Death penalty opponents have a hard time with arguments that they are imposing their moral beliefs on the unwilling majority. They are usually people who resent the majority imposing their moral beliefs on them so the claim of quid pro quo is unsettling. Usually, they stick to arguments about the shortcomings of the justice system and those who have been exonerated due to DNA evidence when they had been sentenced to death. This sidesteps that argument and moves it to another more in their favor. Gx872op (talk) 16:00, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

You're either very confused about the legal system or deliberately spreading propaganda. The judicial branch of government is not democratic: judges are usually appointed, not elected; judges' decisions don't have to correspond to majority opinion; judges are obliged to rule according to the law, regardless of whether they or the public agree with it. Death penalty opponents and supporters are presumably trying to change the law through Parliament, which is based on majority opinion, and not trying to persuade a certain judge to ignore the law for a specific case, which the judge has no power to do. "The majority" (as represented by Parliament) has no authority to punish one specific individual more severely than the law allows, due to separation of powers. Finally, it should be obvious that debates are meant to change the majority opinion. If everyone stopped debating when more than 50% of the public disagreed with them, we'd have no social change, no reform, and definitely no democracy. --00:13, 29 November 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.180.15.97 (talk)

You are very confused as to how the justice system works in the United States. 46% of all US States have direct election of judges. Another 46% have appointments followed by elections. The four states with appointed judges are California, Maine, New Jersey and Virginia. In the US, it is the jury which decides, see Apprendi v. New Jersey. The jury is a representation of the local community. The "propaganda" as you call it started in the 18th century as Brutus wrote:

There is no power above them, to control any of their decisions. There is no authority that can remove them, and they cannot be controlled by the laws of the legislature. In short, they are independent of the people, of the legislature, and of every power under heaven. Men placed in this situation will generally soon feel themselves independent of heaven itself.

What I was referring to was not a debate, but the minority imposing law upon the majority. The danger of this was recognized by James Madison in Federalist No. 10. America has always been distrustful of minority special interest groups attempting reform thereby imposing the will of the minority on the majority. There is a difference between a debate and the agenda of the minority to rule. America doesn't stand for that as we showed Tyrant King George over 200 years ago. Arguments against the death penalty are still losing arguments in the US. One of the killers in the Byrd case I mentioned above was executed a couple of months ago. The sentiment of the people was that justice was served. A judge who does not recognize this will be removed from the bench in the next election. As for the federal judiciary, their scope and standard of review of state court proceedings is very narrow in the habeas corpus procedure. I don't expect you to understand this as it is generally not even taught in American law schools. When habeas relief is granted (in about 2% of all petitions), the vast majority of cases require the elected state judges to consider the case again. Those elected state judges rule according to the law and the will of the majority. America is distrustful of any individual who does not possess the mandate of the electorate. Gx872op (talk) 16:47, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

There is a difference between the majority imposing what it sees as moral behavior on individuals (beyond preventing individual behavior that is objectively harmful), and objecting to immoral behavior on the part of the State. Majority or minority is actually irrelevant; what is right is right and what is wrong is wrong, even if only a single person is able to figure it out. --Trovatore (talk) 22:39, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Not sure what a "typical" response is, but the argument is an example of appeal to emotion. --140.180.15.97 (talk) 23:50, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

someone with a good understanding of music and jazz pls answer this question.

I like the famous Miles Davis "modal" songs such as Milestones (composition) and So What (composition) and sometimes i wonder if there are any semi-famous rock and pop songs that use modal composition.

Like I was listening to Here to Stay (Korn song) and I am wondering if it has Miles-like modal changes or if those are just normal I-IV-IV pop changes.

[1]

OK, listen to the song precisely at 00:29 right around the time there is a key change or something. Is that the same kind of change that happens in "So What" or is it different. Someone who knows music please explain.--Fran Cranley (talk) 01:09, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Sounds like a simple modulation of the repeating riff, up a major third perhaps (I have trouble identifying intervals by ear). That might be "the same kind of change" as in "So What", which features a repeated riff modulating up and down a minor second. Pfly (talk) 06:35, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

On modal songs, you could browse the pages about them (via {{Modes}} perhaps). Some have lists of songs in that mode. Like Dorian mode mentions "Eleanor Rigby", Mixolydian mode "Sweet Child o' Mine". Also see Phrygian dominant scale, which mentions its use in "modern progressive rock/metal". As far as I know there are no "list of songs in phrygian" type pages on Wikipedia, but there probably are out on the Internet. Pfly (talk) 06:45, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

IIRC, Davis's use of modal composition was largely because of his desire to get away from chord-based composition (I'm not at home now, but the liner notes to the CD re-issue of Kind of Blue basically explains it that way). Davis was interested in returning the prominence of melody over harmony. Because of this, Davis's modal compositions (especially the stuff on Kind of Blue) is very riff-based; those recordings were very improvisational, with the musicians improvising riffs based on the modes outlined by Davis for the each composition. Since rock music is often based off of riffs, they have that same "modal" feel; any riff is built on a series of notes, repeated, which roughly could be thought of as selecting notes from a mode the way that Davis thought of it. Modulation, which is a change of key, is largely independent of this idea. Lots of songs have modulations; at many places. Two rock songs I can think of that make prominent use of modulation in different ways could be One (Metallica song) features a promient B->G downward modulation in the intro, and Livin' on a Prayer features a modulation up a whole step for the closing chorus and coda (a common technique in lots of pop and rock songs). In short, modulation is independent of modal composition, and lots of things can sound "modal" even if the composer didn't have that mindset, merely because of the way that riffs are composed. This is my understanding as a non-trained musician. --Jayron32 07:19, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Jayron, you are right about modulation not being the right term (if that is what you were suggesting). I should have said transposition. Also, modulating up a half or whole step near the end of the song, to step up the energy, is sometimes mockingly called a "truck driver's modulation"--mocked because the technique has become rather cliche, as I understand. Here's a funny little rant about it. Pfly (talk) 08:04, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

China's one-child policy and adoption

Greetings.

I'm curious about the one-child-per-couple policy in mainland China and how it relates to Chinese parents who wish to adopt unwanted children. I know that in urban areas it remains strictly enforced, but that in rural areas, it has been relaxed somewhat due to the widespread infanticide of girls.

I'm curious, however, as to whether it applies to adopted children or just natural children. If a Chinese couple with one son, living in Shanghai, for example, wished to adopt someone's unwanted daughter, could they legally do so?

Also, how does the adoption process—in terms of speed and convenience—compare to that of the typical, Western country?

Pine (talk) 06:15, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

One-child_policy#Abandoned_or_orphaned_children_and_adoption has some information on Chinese adoption policy, not a lot, but there are references to external sites which may provide more info. --Jayron32 06:34, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Slightly off-topic, International adoption claims 95% of Chinese international adoptions are girls but it is citation needed. Rmhermen (talk) 15:36, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Can anyone here read enough Chinese to find the Chinese Wikipedia RefDesk, and ask the questions there, even in English? BrainyBabe (talk) 16:49, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

There's an interwiki link from WP:Reference desk to zh:Wikipedia:詢問處, which looks to be the place. Warofdreams talk 16:06, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

I translated the question that someone posted there into Chinese, although my Chinese isn't that good. I doubt we'll receive a response, considering how inactive the desk is. --140.180.15.97 (talk) 18:42, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

Don't know about the Chinese we certainly need to adopt the same policy in the UK and now!--85.211.153.242 (talk) 12:38, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

adjournment motion in Indian Parliament

Dear friends, I have a query in regards to "adjournment motion of Indian parliament"...recently in news its coming...my query is: 1.does Rajyasabha has power to pass "adjournment motion"? 2.if adjournment motion is passed,does it amounts to "censure" of government or "will it lead to fall of government as in case of 'no confidence motion' "? 3.what majority is needed to pass a adjournment motion? -Regards, -Navneeth — Preceding unsigned comment added by Navneeth tn (talk • contribs) 08:29, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Name for this kind of behaviour?

In one of Tove Jansson's Moomin comics, the Moomins travel back in time to Victorian times, where they start up a safety pin factory, which becomes successful and makes them rich. Thus they get invited to upper class parties, where one guest says to Moominpappa: "You no doubt own one of these centuries-old trading companies, right?" Moominpappa replies: "No, we are, as they say, self-made: safety pins!" At this point, all the other guests start shunning the Moomins and say that they are just leaving. Is there a name for this kind of behaviour? JIP | Talk 08:51, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Maybe something related to nouveau riche? Pfly (talk) 09:15, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Snobbery? --Viennese Waltz 09:19, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

AS above. Snobbism. The established classes considered their social standing to be bequeathed to them along the lines of Dieu et mon droit. The "nuevo-rich" industrialists were just muscling into their world of privilege and were thus not of their kind and good breeding.--Aspro (talk) 09:22, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Don't know anything about Swedish culture, especially of that time, but if it had happened in Britain, I'd have called it normal. It's just the way things worked. HiLo48 (talk) 09:32, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

The British idiom is to send them to Coventry.
Sleigh (talk) 11:26, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Also known as ostracising the unfortunate small animals.  Card Zero  (talk) 18:04, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

If this is indee related to nouveau riche, then I have a further question: Isn't it so that in order to become vieu riche, you have to start as nouv riche? All those riches have to come from somewhere. Should the nouevau riche then just keep learning the social ways, and not actually engage in them until they are vieu riche? JIP | Talk 12:42, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

I don't think an individual can become "old money" within their lifetime - the key feature of old money is that you inherited your wealth rather than earned it (that's what makes it old). The best they can do is try to get their children considered as old money by giving them the right education, exposing them to the right people, finding them the right spouses, etc.. Even with all of that, it might take more than one generation. With the right marriage, though, one generation should be enough - you would need to find someone with the right breeding and, ideally, a title but whose family has fallen on hard times financially and would therefore be interested in a marriage to new money. You can then combine their title and your money and end up with a good social position for your child, which might then help you a little as well. --Tango (talk) 13:49, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Yes, That is what ended up happening, ugly high-born women married rich commoners. Yet it was more than an old money issue. If you take the (early) Victorian hymn All Things Bright and Beautiful as an example, it has in verse three:

The rich man in his castle,

The poor man at his gate,

God made them high and lowly,

And ordered their estate.

In other words, the landed gentry felt they had God on their side, and their insecurities lead them to ostracise those, whom (in their eyes) were trying to assume a social station above that, that God had ordained only for their 'betters'. After all, that upper classes built chapels and churches and gave arms to the poor over generations, so obviously they were more pious and worthy of their privileges position than these snivelling little safety-pin makers!--Aspro (talk) 18:41, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

I assume you mean alms. Giving arms to the poor sounds incautious. 213.122.59.35 (talk) 22:58, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

It might be worth noting also, that even today, some people whom consider themselves to be somebody, are quick to point out (should needs must), that they can trace their bloodline back to the Normans. As if to say -And who(?) are you(?) to talk!? ( I can say this with tongue in cheek and a grin because I know my blood line too, and so can answer these ponce’s back (- its their automatic presumption that gets my goat – and no! I don't drive a Ford (horrid contraptions), I just speak non U. Likewise, I do and most unreservedly, apologise to any snivelling little safety-pin makers who happen to be reading this.--Aspro (talk) 19:12, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

In Australia these days many folks are pleased if they can trace their ancestry back to the original convicts. Not sure what that proves. HiLo48 (talk) 00:57, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

In the USA we just divide them between the 99 percent and the 1 percent. Bus stop (talk) 19:41, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

In the US though , it seems that 'Worth' is based more on financial wealth – not pedigree. Indeed, great store seems to be put in notable 'worthies' inventing (contriving) deprived origins, to bolster the poor-boy-made-good to cover up the less than Christian methods, they used to trample over their fellow brethren on their way to the top of the heap. The Public Enemy attempted to elucidate There but for the grace of God, go I but America has changed. No longer can the bum in the gutter, look up and see the stars above – and be so reminded, that this is the land of opportunity where a man can achieve anything he wants to -by hard honest work.--Aspro (talk) 20:08, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

If that's true, why did it all go so badly wrong, and what can be done about it? -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 20:37, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Nothing can be done about it. There is a 400 year cycle between west and the eastern worlds. When Marco Polo went to China, its technology was far advanced from ours. The technology then drifted west. Today we speak of the 'wisdom of the crowd' but that is balances by the ignorance of the masses and those whom they give their political support to. This cycle is still in motion. The US society now is wrap up in litigation and stagnating, whilst the the far east (and India) is entering a new renascence. What can be done about it??? Look through your home for anything not made abroad. Who is exporting your jobs and means of wealth creation abroad for their own enrichment? 200 years ago the Chines said the same thing – did it do them any good? The society went into stagnation – just like the US is currently slipping into. "Those Who Forget History Are Doomed to Repeat It"--Aspro (talk) 00:45, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

.Hmm: Thinking about it, I think I meant Angels with Dirty Faces--Aspro (talk) 20:38, 27 November 2011 (UTC)--Aspro (talk) 20:38, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

There is definitely an "American aristocracy" made up of "blue bloods" with "old money". Google on those terms to find many results. Here's a page from a book describing it to some degree, The power of privilege: Yale and America's elite colleges, p. 74. Pfly (talk) 21:39, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

What is to be done? I'd suggest reconfiguring economic life based on insights into higher productivity economic relations seen in proletarian communities of all kinds, and finalise the enlightenment project by democratising production and ownership, and by reducing the caprice and power of the state still further, though there are other visions of how to reduce class society or class disparity including fascist corporatism and social democracy. Fifelfoo (talk) 00:58, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Hawaiian Islands, Liberia and the Orange Free State

Looking at this quote "Thirdly, a few Christian states in other parts of the world, as the Hawaiian Islands, Liberia and the Orange Free State" from here. Can anybody tell me where the quote originated in what document or treaty is it from? --KAVEBEAR (talk) 09:55, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

So far as I can tell from googling the quote, it seems to be text written by John Westlake in his "Chapters on the Principles of International Law", published by Cambridge University Press in 1894. Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:54, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

That's what the link KAVEBEAR gave us suggests as well. It's the first result in his link (and is quoted in the second result). Adam Bishop (talk) 12:38, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Protest over Kashmir Map Controversy at Wikipedia Conference Mumbai 2011

I work with www.mylaw.net.

I wish to have a formal reaction of the Wikipedia editorial board on the controversy.

[[2]].

What is Wikipedia going to do about this problem?

Please respond fast.

name and email address redacted — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.125.21.243 (talk) 12:45, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

I don't know what this is about, but the last paragraph of our article BJP youth wing protest against Wikipedia's map of India gives the official response of the Wikimedia Foundation to the "controversy". Is that sufficient for your needs? PS. This is not the place to raise this kind of question. PPS. Was that fast enough? --Viennese Waltz 12:59, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

To clarify Viennese Waltz's P.S., there is no reason to believe that members of the Wikimedia Foundation will read this page before or after it is archived. Also, people who do read this page regularly, such as myself, have no connection to the Wikimedia Foundation other than as users of its media and do not know how to contact members of the Foundation. Posting your request here is like posting a request to the board of directors of a city bus service on the walls of one of the bus stops. Marco polo (talk) 16:46, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

My PS did not require any clarification, it was already perfectly clear. What you've done is expanded upon it, which is a different thing and arguably unnecessary. In fact I probably would have said something along those lines but I was in a hurry to "respond fast". --Viennese Waltz 17:41, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Talk:BJP youth wing protest against Wikipedia's map of India is interesting. "It is outrageous that to even publish a map showing what the Pakistan government believes or wants to be the case is illegal. This shuts down legitimate public debate and understanding of the issue." --Jimbo Wales. India's law making it illegal, under penalty of imprisonment, to show all of Kashmir as anything other than fully part of India, is, according to Jimbo at least, a "freedom of speech and human rights issue". Finally, Wikipedia/Wikimedia isn't going to do anything about this. No other country abides by India's censorship law. Nor does the UN. The issue is strictly internal to India and something Indians need to address and fix. Also, that page is likely to be deleted soon. At least that's how it's looking at its deletion page--the protest is probably not notable, although the law itself is. I've already added the information about the law in question over at Censorship in India#Maps and Kashmir conflict#Map issues. Pfly (talk) 21:17, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

We don't have an editorial board in the first place. Nyttend (talk) 03:26, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Harvard Citation Style

I need to use the Harvard citation style for a social sciences essay that I have to write. I've been told that I need an add-on to use the style in MS Word. MS Word tells me that I'm already using the Harvard style, but there are some small differences between what it does, and how the bibliographies appear in my text books, e.g. missing brackets. Does anyone know where I can find the Harvard add-on? — Fly by Night (talk) 13:40, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

You shouldn't need to download anything, you can just do it manually. There is a way to use Word to input all the information you need for a reference, and it will organize it according to whatever style you want, but I find that it's actually almost completely useless. Creating references manually is definitely easier. Adam Bishop (talk) 13:53, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

I agree with Adam. The problem is that implementations of style sheets can vary a lot and software is often pretty bad at it. Why not just do it manually? Most styles are pretty regular once you take a minute to learn how to do the three formats you'll be doing constantly (the article out of a journal; the book; the article out of an edited volume, or whatever your paper uses). It takes a lot less time than futzing around with Word. This page and this page break it down and give examples. Just copy the pattern. If you have questions feel free to ask them here. --Mr.98 (talk) 15:25, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

An automated referencing system (like I use in LaTeX) guarantees continuity. Moreover, it's far easier. Once I input the information into a referencing system, I will have a consistent referencing system that I can use repeatedly. If you don't agree with my method then don't answer the question. I didn't ask: "What do you think of..." I asked "How can I do...". — Fly by Night (talk) 16:21, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Maybe next time you can give us all the relevant information in the original post. Adam Bishop (talk) 18:15, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

I gave all the details: "I need to use the Harvard citation style for a social sciences essay... I need an add-on to use the style in MS Word... Does anyone know where I can find the Harvard add-on?"Maybe next time don't waste people's time (and your own) by making posts that don't answer people's questions. — Fly by Night (talk) 19:00, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

You didn't mention you were using LaTeX...and unless there is an add-on for that, "you don't need an add-on" is still probably the correct answer. Adam Bishop (talk) 19:24, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

I am not using LaTeX; I use LaTeX. As I mention in my original post, and have since repeated: "I need an add-on to use [an Harvard style] in MS Word..." Please re-read what has been written. — Fly by Night (talk) 19:36, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

"I am not using LaTeX; I use LaTeX." Are you using LaTeX or are you not? 194.100.223.164 (talk) 13:43, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

Would you like me to explain the finer points of the English language to you? "I am not using LaTeX" means that, at this moment or for this project, I am not using LaTeX. "I use LaTeX" means that, for some things, I use LaTeX. It's an analogous distinction to that of perfect and imperfect tenses. Let me give you another example: I am not drinking water (right now), but I do drink water (at times). — Fly by Night (talk) 19:57, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

And if you are just looking for computing answers, consider asking the question on the computing desk. Anyway, we're not trying to be difficult, there's no need to be snippy about it. My personal experience, as someone who has probably written far, far more essays than you do (and more or less writes them for a living), is that reference software is usually more trouble than it's worth, consistently requires work-arounds and debugging, and is indeed less of a time-saver than just learning how to do styles from memory. But hey, it's your time, and your essay, do it as you feel. --Mr.98 (talk) 18:38, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

It wasn't a "computing" question, and did not require a "computing" answer. It was a question about citation styles in social sciences. It just so happened that the medium of choice was a word processor. I'm sure that, if you stop and think, you can understand my annoyance. I ask a question and the answers are, to paraphrase, "I wouldn't do that..." — Fly by Night (talk) 19:00, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

If all you want is a Word plugin, it's a computing question. If you want a discussion of citation styles in the social sciences, it's a Humanities question, and that's what mine and Adam's responses are. We're addressing this as a question about citation practice, not a narrow computing question. If you're really just looking for the right Add-on, ask in Computing. Otherwise expect a more Humanities style answer. I'm sure that, if you stop and think, you can understand our annoyance at trying to give thoughtful responses as people who practice in the Humanities, and being told that all you want is a narrow Computing answer, despite this being the Humanities desk. Getting snippy with people trying in good faith to help you out is irritating to them, as you can imagine, if you stop and think. --Mr.98 (talk) 21:55, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Let's agree to disagree… — Fly by Night (talk) 17:11, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

You may (or may not, given the above comments) be interested in the fact that there are at least 5 different styles of referencing that count as "Harvard". (I write this as a retired lecturer in the social sciences at 2 different UK universities, by the way) From experience, the best advice to give you is to follow exactly what your university has told you to do and do it manually, as you will lose marks for sloppiness. Don't rely on a computer to do it for you. (If I'd have taken my own advice a few years ago I'd have got a 1st instead of a 2:1, so I write whereof I know.) --TammyMoet (talk) 19:25, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments. I've noticed that there are several similar styles. Is there a way to write a personal citation style file in MS Word? As a maths PhD, I have used a custom bibliography file in all of my LaTeX documents. I would like to have the same functionality -- if possible -- in MS Word. — Fly by Night (talk) 19:44, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Wouldn't it be easier to do everything in LaTex (since you already can deal with it) and then converting it to MS Word? Quest09 (talk) 00:23, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

I had thought about that, but it isn't very user friendly and is very specialist. It's designed to write mathematics. You have to type in LaTeX syntax and then it's compiled into a document that is displayed. I prefer the WYSIWYG style for simple word processing. — Fly by Night (talk) 17:11, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Zotero may help.[3] It lets you create a citation database in a Firefox plug-in, and then insert references into common word processors. (I think you can import a database of citations into Zotero as well, but haven't done it.) Several styles of reference are directly supported, and you can freely change the citation format by editing XML files, so you should be able to match almost any variation of Harvard. (The built-in referencing features in Word or Open Office are not really suitable for serious academic use.) --Colapeninsula (talk) 10:35, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Excellent. Thanks for the advice. I've downloaded it, and it seems to work really well. I love the way that I can "grab" citation information directly from websites. :-) — Fly by Night (talk) 17:11, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

You may also be interested in Comparison of reference management software. If you are at university as staff or student, you may want to see if your university has any site licenced software that you can use including at home or on your personal laptop. On a personal note I've used EndNote a while back and found it worked well without needing much fiddling around as others have mentioned here although was mainly working with journal articles and occasional web sources. And importing citations was usually fairly trivial for journal articles. I did hear EndNote had some major stability and similar issues in one of the versions after I last used it although I think those are mostly resolved by now. Of course if your university provide it then hopefully a style exists for the software that fulfills exactly what your university requires avoiding TammyMoet's problem although if they are known to be fussy it may still be a good idea to check the output just in case. Reference management software when properly set up should provide not only the advantage of managing the stuff in your Word processor, but also if properly set up, of managing a large number of references and being able to easily access them when you have local digital copies. However EndNote is not cheap if you have to pay for it yourself. I do agree this question was probably better asked at the computing desk. Nil Einne (talk) 19:24, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Most lopsided prisoner-swap not involving Israel

With the recent headlines on the Gilad Shalit prisoner exchange, where Shait was released in return for 1,027 arab prisoners, I wondered: which would be the closest such swaps not involving Israel?

(Yes, I'm aware that the Israelies have historically paid a lopsided price in numbers for the return of their captured soldiers. I'm interested only in non-Israeli cases). Has any other swap come close? And if not, which swaps have come closest? 58.111.163.17 (talk) 16:24, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

In 1985, Soviet Union traded the U.S. 23 for 4 at Glienicke Bridge. Rmhermen (talk) 21:23, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

On a grander scale, during the U.S. Civil War by the Dix–Hill Cartel, the "Union Army paroled or exchanged 329,963 Confederate prisoners of war, while the Confederacy paroled or exchanged about 152,015 Union prisoners of war". A balance of almost 178,000 in the Confederates' favor, although only about a 2 for 1 rate. Rmhermen (talk) 21:46, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

According to The Final Crucible: U.S. Marines in Korea: 1953 by Lee Ballenger, in 1953 (following the death of Joseph Stalin), the North Koreans agreed to exchange 684 "sick and injured prisoners" for 6670, "about 5 percent of all POWs held by either side". Clarityfiend (talk) 03:17, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

This BBC article says it was called Operation "Little Switch". And of course, we have an article: Operation Big Switch#Operation Little Switch. In Big Switch, 75,823 communist prisoners were exchanged for 12,773 UN ones. Clarityfiend (talk) 03:23, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

There have also been more recent exchanges between North and South Korea[4], but I'm having trouble finding details. --Colapeninsula (talk) 10:38, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Julius Peter Garesché

Good morning,

I'd like to know why Julius Peter Garesché is listed as one of the Spanish in the Civil War. He was NOT Spanish; he was of French-American descent, only born in Cuba because his parents were there temporarily. By the way, his last name is spelled wrong in the body of his mini-bio. Please note, too, that there should always be an accent on the last e of his name so that people understand that it is French and know how to pronounce it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.81.132.153 (talk) 17:54, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

What is the title of the article with the problem? --Jayron32 21:24, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Having looked through Julius Peter Garesché, my comments are (1) Welcome to Wikipedia! Anyone can edit articles, if you see something wrong, please fix it! Nobody here has any more standing than you do. (2) I can't see any examples of the accent missing? I've added the missing 'h' in one example of his name, though (3) He's not listed as 'Spanish' (from your q, I was expecting something about the Spanish civil war), under 'see also', there's a link to Hispanics in the American Civil War - my understanding, and I'd need an American to clear this up, is that 'Hispanic' is a very broad catch-all that doesn't just take ethnicity, or at least not only ethnicity into account? --Saalstin (talk) 21:38, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Hispanic means coming from a Hispanic culture into the U.S. Like any such nebulous term, it is usually self-defined (only a person may define for themselves if they are Hispanic). It doesn't really matter what the last name is, or the ethnic background before settling in a Hispanic culture. It only matters that the person self-identifies as being Hispanic, at least by the U.S. definition. --Jayron32 21:49, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

If the person who asked the question has reliable sources indicating the Garesché was born to parents of non-Spanish origin and lacked a Spanish-language cultural background, then he should be removed from the article on Hispanics in the Civil War. (He would not have identified as "Hispanic" since nobody at his time identified as such.) Marco polo (talk) 02:18, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Jatiyatabadi Ulama Dal in Bangladesh

Hi,

What is the Ulama Dal or Jatiyatabadi Ulama Dal? How is it different from the rest of BNP ?

Thanks. Apokrif (talk) 21:44, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

It is the pro-BNP front organization of religious clerics (ulema). BNP has many front organizations, amongst youth, students, women, labour, farmers, etc. See this for example, http://www.unbconnect.com/component/news/task-show/id-18672/format-raw --Soman (talk) 04:02, 28 November 2011 (UTC)