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February 5

How do you get over the idea that online dating is weird and pathetic?

Mr.K. (talk) 01:16, 5 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I tend to think at online dating as a better form of brokering than offline dating. At the end you just find the same partner you would, if you kept trying offline. It is only more efficient, similarly as online trading is more efficient than other forms of trading.217.168.3.246 (talk) 01:47, 5 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You can get over it by finding your perfect Ms or Mr Right online. It worked for me. Mind you, if you never find such a person online, you might still feel like you're being weird and pathetic by trying. In that case, just put it down to experience, go out for a walk in the fresh air, smile at the first person you see, and wait for what happens next. :) -- JackofOz (talk) 12:37, 5 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Start by finding a site that doesn't appear to be as cheesy or pathetic looking as others. Decide what are the best qualities of an online dating site (perhaps private chat, no online sex, fee-based sign-up to avoid practical jokers), and perhaps one that caters to a specific interest (i.e. for Christians, backpackers, left-handed stand-up comedians, etc.). If you're still feeling embarrassed or put off by it, then perhaps a different approach to finding a partner might be better for you, such as speed dating or desperate and dateless balls. Steewi (talk) 23:56, 5 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If you are acostume to 'normal' online dating probably online dating will seem for you as pathetic. In the same way as a bikini can look pathetic if you'are not used to it. Both are product of the new new era. Obvisously people that go the offline or online way find the kind of people as them. Everywhere you go, you'll find people like you, provided you go there where you want to go. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.58.205.37 (talk) 16:30, 6 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Need info on St. Mary's Church of the Assumption in Wilkes-Barre,PA

Need info on finding history re: abve mentioned churh. It started as a Russian Orthadox church and then changed to Byzantine (Greek?) Catholic. It's celebrating it's 100th anniversary. Location is North Main Street in the city of Wilkes-Barre, PA. Any help would be appreciated! Also had a school thru 8th grade that close a few years ago. Thanks1to3lat4ever (talk) 07:09, 5 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Extreme elements photographers in the 70s

I would like to find some information on a pair of photographers that were husband and wife. I do not know their names. I know that I believe they did their major work in the 1970s. The husband would expose himself to extreme elements for several days and the wife would take one single picture at the end of the period. I was told that the husband died after one of them while he subjected himself to being in a swamp up to his nose and he only let his mouth come above the swamp to eat when his wife brought food. Thank you for any help.

Aviaries (talk) 08:58, 5 February 2008 (UTC)Aviaries[reply]

I tried using extreme photographers 1970s but nothing, sorry. Somebody will come along, in the meantime this looks like a candidate for the Darwin Awards... Julia Rossi (talk) 10:59, 5 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You may want to slog your way through List of photographers. I'd suggest starting with the "art" entries. Bovlb (talk) 18:36, 5 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

These aren't the folks you're looking for, but they rhyme. --Sean 20:47, 5 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Do people get reimbursed for a travel expenses going to a job interview in Switzerland?

Would someone get reimbursed for travel expenses for going to a job interview in Zurich? How do you know (wikipedia page, web site, etc)? What is the procedure.

Thank you!

Should we assume that you are not in Switzerland? Dismas|^(talk) 11:44, 5 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

that's right...

It will vary from potential-employer to potential-employer. There's no resource, beyond the HR department of the potential-employer in your specific case, that you can ask. --Tagishsimon (talk) 11:50, 5 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

How do you know? Can you link to a web site where you saw that? Thank you!

As per Sherlock Holmes modus operandi: dismiss the impossible & consider the improbable. I'm doing your homework for you, am I not? (Alternative answer: experience & common sense. In the absence of a Swiss law requiring firms to offer travel expenses - most unlikely - the decision rests with the company.) --Tagishsimon (talk) 13:14, 5 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

it's not my homework, though I'm very curious... I wouldn't like just a 'hunch' though -- personal experience is good too!

Depends on how much they want to hire you.—Chowbok ☠ 19:50, 5 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If they offer you a job, they will not offer you a reimbursement for travel expenses. 217.168.1.246 (talk) 02:34, 6 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. And if they don't offer me a job, might they offer reimbursement?

Some companies do it, some don't. Asking for reimbursement is considered impolite and they have the right to not reimburse you. 217.168.1.246 (talk) 02:34, 6 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have been reimbursed for travel expenses for an interview. In that case, I was told at the time I was invited to interview that my "reasonable costs" would be reimbursed upon presentation of receipts. Both cities were in Canada, but far enough apart that flights and an overnight hotel stay were required. I would suggest that you ask, if the informaton is not volunteered. If you are a very good prospect for a mid- to senior-level job, the company is likely to agree to pick up your expenses. I doubt very much that this is an matter of law or even of the corporate policy of any given company. It is much more likely to be an individual matter, related to the job and to the candidates for it. ៛ Bielle (talk) 02:53, 6 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I also was offered (and accepted) the job. I don't think what 217.168.1.246 said above is necessarily correct. ៛ Bielle (talk) 17:13, 6 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I made this comment refering to Switzerland.217.168.1.246 (talk) 01:54, 7 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Links between language and reality

I would like to read more about the correspondance between language and reality. What are the current main theories or schools of thoughts and opinions on the subject? Is there a name for this field of studies (is it simply language philosophy)? I guess most theories would fall into big categories such as the logic, empiric, idealist, what are the current dominant ones and their contenders? Thank you Keria (talk) 10:58, 5 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's normally (in the analytic tradition at least) called the philosophy of language. That page seems to have quite a lot of information. Algebraist 13:12, 5 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's a big, big field. My favorite book in it is George Lakoff's Women, Fire, and Dangerous Things (1987), but I know that many of those who care about such things more than I do disagree with his approach. I find it pretty useful for my own work, though, and its very readable (skim the case studies). He gives an overview, if I recall, of some of the many different approaches others take to the question, though he of course showcases his own views primarily. --24.147.69.31 (talk) 22:58, 5 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You may be interested in the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis. -Elmer Clark (talk) 08:23, 6 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You may also be interested in this news story.--droptone (talk) 12:41, 7 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Cancelling postal orders

If I post an order off to someone, and it gets lost, can I cancel it? Porcupine (prickle me! · contribs · status) 12:24, 5 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This article states that you can have the payee's name printed on postal orders nowadays. If you do that, it shouldn't matter if it gets lost, since it won't be usable by anyone except the payee. If you don't... I'm not sure. --Richardrj ^talk ^email 13:07, 5 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That's too simplistic an answer. Don't you pay for money orders up front? If so, a lost and uncashed order would be a gift to the post office. Even if not, the questioner may want to cancel the order before replacing it if he doesn't have 100% faith that the loss of the original order was honestly reported. APL (talk) 14:14, 5 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It seems entirely possible that the answer, or at least the detailed rules, will be different from one country to another. If Porcupine is from a country where the post office has a web site, it would make sense to look there. --Anonymous, 01:27 UTC, February 6, 2008.

History of data

I am writing up a report about how much IT has made an impact on the world, but I want to open it up with the means people used to transfer data before the age of computers, such as printed manuscripts and such. I will write about the history of the Internet and computers but it's just the age before computers I'm having trouble understanding.

Would anyone be willing to help me out here? Thanks in advance. Druss666uk (talk) 12:45, 5 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Can you be more specific about what you're having trouble with? Obviously you know of manuscripts, books, and the like, so it's not clear what assistance you're asking for. Also, I would make sure to note the impact of technologies such as the telegraph. — Lomn 14:44, 5 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I would treat the history of information technology as being at least three different strains of development, which I will here just call replication, transmission, and data.

Replication: You might start off with Johannes Gutenberg and the history of the printing press. What made the press so revolutionary in the Western world is not just that it allowed mass communication (which it did), but it allowed mass replication as well—you, the author, could be reasonably sure that people would be reading whatever you want in exactly the form you meant it (high fidelity, so to speak). Compare that with any pre-press transmittal of information, where you had to rely on the copyist not making errors, or making "corrections" in some cases, or not mis-understanding the thing to be copied in question. Mass printing—cheap printing—took off in the 19th century primarily. The rise of the newspaper, the magazine, the gossip column. Literacy climbs. Printing costs plummet. Suddenly a market opens up for an educated public. Would Darwin have been as socially important had his book not become a popular sensation? Perhaps not—it certainly wouldn't have been discussed the way it was, in so many different circles.
Transmission: Both the technology of getting information from here-to-there, but also the availability of a market to want to receive the information in the first place. The telegraph and the radio are of course topics to be discussed here, as they allow syndication of information across continents. But don't omit the simple things like a reliable postal service—the British postal service in the 19th century was a thing to be reckoned with—which allowed people to create networks across continents, albeit much slower ones than we are used to.
Data: Statistics, as the name implies, was originally the "science of the state", and really took off in the 18th and 19th centuries as a way of understanding the populations of various countries and understanding the best ways to govern them. Various methods were adopted to acquire massive amounts of data and to make it useful and accessible. Emblematic of this might be Bertillonage—a system (of using data about criminals) to allow law enforcement to quickly determine whether or not a piece of data was or was not already in a massive database. Running further down the line, it is easy to see how something like this eventually ends up in the massive punch-card machines created by International Business Machines for the state census at the turn of the 20th century.

Anyway, just some food for thought, some blue-skying from someone who likes to try and break things down into major themes as an easy mode of organization, as something that helps sharpen the analysis and keep it from being a progressive this-invention-to-that-invention sort of thing. --24.147.69.31 (talk) 16:09, 5 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Big subject. We can for the time being only chip away at the edge. To the above I'm going to pitch in with carbon paper & Carbon copy, and typing pool (oddly, an article not yet started). But that would only help for the period since the use of the typewriter. Before that, you'd have to consider the legions of clerks who kept things ticking over, and the postal service. It would help us if you could articulate what problems you are having with the pre-computer age. --Tagishsimon (talk) 16:27, 5 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Microfilm, microfiche and related technologies deserve a mention. Gandalf61 (talk) 16:29, 5 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

But they should be regretted woefully. ;-) I ~~hate~~ loathe microform—it's a step I wish we'd skipped. It degrades whatever you put on it horribly, and isn't is much harder to use than the original as well. The only benefit is storage and distribution (and even that, to my mind, has to be offset against the ease of losing/misplacing any individual bit once you've got it in large amounts), and for my money I wish we'd have just put things on paper and kept them that way and sucked up the extra costs. I spend a good part of my time each year converting a lot of microfilmed material into digital files. --24.147.69.31 (talk) 22:53, 5 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

My favorite: a series of tubes. --Sean 20:52, 5 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Tally sticks and knotted strings?^{(Hypnosadist)} 07:19, 6 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ethics

what are the humanistic ethics for rhetoric? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.201.253.222 (talk) 13:08, 5 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm...I could point you to Humanism, 194.201, I could even point you to Ethics and to Rhetoric, but I have not the first idea what you mean by the 'humanistic ethics for rhetoric'. If you could try to be a little more precise I might be able to help. Clio the Muse (talk) 00:11, 6 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

For the historical touch on Greek humanism, (start here ^[1] there's a note on Plato's criticism of the ethics of rhetoric as worked by the Sophists: Plato (427-347 BC) has famously outlined the differences between true and false rhetoric in a number of dialogues, but especially the Gorgias and the Phaedrus... in both Plato disputes the Sophistic notion that an art of persuasion... which he calls "rhetoric" ... can exist independent of the art of dialectic. Plato claims that since Sophists appeal only to what seems likely or probable, rather than to what is true, they are not at all making their students and audiences "better," but simply flattering them with what they want to hear. ^[2] More or less arguing for content over style. Otherwise, what humanism are you referring to? Julia Rossi (talk) 01:56, 6 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Schopenauer and free will

I working may way (slowly) through the philosopy of Arthur Schopenhauer, and am having not a few difficulties. I'm still a more than a little baffled by the concept of Will, which seems to be nothing but a blind force. Is there anything in his work that can be equated with the Christian notion of free will?Sophie Sophist (talk) 13:11, 5 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sophie, the closest you will come in Schopenhauer to the idea of free will is in The World as Will and Representation, where he discusses Willkür, which has the sense of choice, arbitrary power or caprice. It is, however, quite different from the concept that you may be familiar with from Christian theology. It is will, rather, with the power of choice; will determined consciously by a specific set of motives. As such it is not entirely free, because it is subject to the determination of motive. For Schopenhauer absolute free will does not exist in the word of phenomena. Clio the Muse (talk) 00:22, 6 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Location of archives of Gerald Abrahams

Can any user please tell me where the archives of Gerald Abrahams (1907 - 1980), the chess player, author and barrister, are located? Thank you. Simonschaim (talk) 13:51, 5 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

photographer - mass naked people

Who is the artist who has several times persuaded hundreds of naked people to traipse around their various home cities, photographing them en masse? BrainyBabe (talk) 14:38, 5 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Spencer Tunick, I believe. -- JackofOz (talk) 14:42, 5 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Rap music, M to the C

What does it mean when a rap musician sings, eg. M to the C to the 3 of the Z (fictional lyrics, you get the idea)? 81.93.102.185 (talk) 19:40, 5 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Usually they are spelling something. Izzo (H.O.V.A.) is one real example. When Jay-Z says "H to the Izz-O, V to the Izz-A" he is spelling "HOVA" (and using -izzle as an infix). Recury (talk) 20:17, 5 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

They are usually spelling their stage-name in rhyme/lyrically...So Jay-z (who seems to also be known as HOVA) sings "H to the izz-O, V to the izz-A" - essentially spelling out his nickname. ny156uk (talk) 20:18, 5 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The central topic of hip hop subject matter is what the singer's name is and whether he got something to say, which is challenging to stretch out to a 4 minute track, so it helps to pad it by spelling out the lyrics. --Sean 20:58, 5 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Just FYI, unless you are twelve years old or younger you are not allowed to claim that one genre of music is in any way inherently artistically superior/inferior to any other. --24.147.69.31 (talk) 22:23, 5 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I made no such claim. I was merely noting that a major theme in hip hop is what the name of the singer is. It's very unusual in that regard. --Sean 23:58, 5 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

OK. Just putting that out there, lest there was disparaging going on. ;-) Actually, the trope of self-promotion one of the things that makes hip-hop the most post-modern of all musical styles—the authored work is about the ability of the author to author the work (I rap well, therefore I am the shit, as a modern-day Descartes might say). I think of the spelling out of the name in a complication fashion to be something like the graffiti artist who writes their name in a complicated fashion—it makes the saying of the name (long a holy thing) into a work of art itself, and even an expression of the virtuosity represented by the name. --24.147.69.31 (talk) 17:18, 6 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"The authored work is about the ability of the author to author the work"? That's the kind of sprezzatura shiznit that Byron is up to in Don Juan. George G to izz-O, R to the D-O-N, gangsta rapper? 80.254.147.52 (talk) 11:37, 7 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm 2 to the 4-dot, one-forty-seven, if that helps. See how much more lyrical that sounds when said aloud than just saying "twenty-four point one-hundred-and-forty-seven"? --24.147.69.31 (talk) 22:21, 5 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Don't agree with your cultural relativism. There is nothing wrong with ranking different genres - just as you can rank different works in the same genre - in terms of artistic merit and contribution to society. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 03:00, 8 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Multinational Force and Observers (MFO) in Egypt—Current Deployed U.S. Forces?

At Multinational_Force_and_Observers#States_involved, the current forces deployed from the U.S. as part of the MFO are identified as Puerto Rican NG units. I was under the impression that the group deployed there right now is in fact Pennsylvania NG. Anyone know a good way to find whether or not that is the case, along with information as to their groupings with a similar level of detail to what's currently in the article? Jouster (whisper) 21:04, 5 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

According to this MFO web page, the Pennsylvania NG assumed the mission in January 2008. The same page suggests that the Puerto Rico NG held the position until January 2008. So our list appears to be out of date. I will fix this reference, but if you want to do a more thorough update to our article, you can find similar information for all of the members of the mission by following the links from this MFO web page. Marco polo (talk) 23:22, 5 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Orwell and Trotsky

George Orwell served in the Trotskyite POUM during the Spanish Civil War. I assume this was a reflection of his politics, but have been unable to establish this for certain. Can anyone please confirm that he supported Trotsky? Some direct references would be helpful. Thank you very much. 217.43.9.102 (talk) 21:15, 5 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

George Orwell#Political views would be a good place to start. --Tagishsimon (talk) 21:38, 5 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I read Homage to Catalonia last summer. I remember, as our article states, that he "joined the POUM rather than the Communist-run International Brigades by chance — but his experiences, in particular his and his wife's narrow escape from the Communist purges in Barcelona in June 1937, greatly increased his sympathy for POUM and made him a life-long anti-Stalinist." In the book, he mentions the Trotskyists in the third persion several places, as if he did not identify himself as one of them. --NorwegianBlue^talk 21:40, 5 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It might be best if we allowed Orwell to speak for himself.

The fact that Trotskyists are everywhere a persecuted minority, and that the accusation usually made against them, i.e. of collaborating with the Fascists, is absolutely false, creates an impression that Trotskyism is intellectually and morally superior to communism; but it is doubtful whether there is much difference. Notes on Nationalism, Polemic, October 1945.

I was associated with the Trotskyists in Spain. It was chance that I was serving in the POUM militia and not another, and I largely disagreed with the POUM "line" and told its leaders so freely... Pacifism and the War, Partisan Review, September-October 1942

The various other Marxist parties, all of them claiming to be the true and uncorrupted successors of Lenin, are in an even more hopeless position. The average Englishman is unable to grasp their doctrines and uninterested in their grievances. And in England the lack of the conspiratorial mentality which has been developed in police-ridden European countries is a great handicap. English people in large numbers will not accept any creed whose dominant notes are hatred and illegality. The ruthless ideologies of the Continent-not merely Communism and Fascism, but Anarchism, Trotskyism, and even ultramontane Catholicism-are accepted in their pure form only by the intelligentsia, who constitute a sort of island bigotry amid the general vagueness. The English People

Not much evidence there of support for Trotsky and Trotskyism! You should also bear in mind the figure of Snowball/Trotsky in Animal Farm, 217.43. This wise little book is sometimes taken as an anti-Stalinist polemic, but the revolution begins to decay and to corrupt well before Napoleon/Stalin takes absolute power. In political terms Orwell was a 'Tory anarchist', a little bit like me! Clio the Muse (talk) 00:56, 6 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What the hell is a 'Tory anarchist'? (see question below)Mr.K. (talk) 02:52, 6 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Can a person be a Tory and an anarchist at the same time?

Mr.K. (talk) 02:57, 6 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Don't know about that, but in the second quarter of the 19th-century, there were "Tory radicals", who were highly opposed to the negative effects of industrialization in Britain. Factory owners had a prominent role in the Whig party, so that the Whig party was not the natural home for advocacy for the rights of factory workers... AnonMoos (talk) 08:29, 6 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

My guess: Perhaps Clio just meant she is a rather independent or free-thinking right-winger? --Taraborn (talk) 11:30, 6 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

They can hold bits of both. Ones doesn't have to be a fundamental tory and a fundmental anarchist. They could easily associate with segments of each without being entirely contradictory. There feels like a growing trend in politics to think that people must be '100%' whatever party they associate themselves with or they are labeled hypocrites. In reality very few people are outright supporters of every single stance that the party they support has, they just happen to broadly agree with that party (or its philosophies in general). ny156uk (talk) 17:27, 6 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, but there is still an inherent contradiction here. A Tory is someone who wishes for government by the Conservative Party. An anarchist is someone who rejects the whole notion of government outright. My simple mind tells me it's not possible to be both. --Richardrj ^talk ^email 20:21, 6 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If a "Tory" is a "Conservative" and a "Conservative" is a "conservative", and a "conservative" wants the least possible involvement of government in daily life, then an extreme "conservative" would be one who wanted no government involvement, which could be the same as "no government", which is an "anarchist" perspective; thus a Tory becomes an anarchist. No? ៛ Bielle (talk) 21:23, 6 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A Conservative cannot want no government, since by definition they support government by the Conservative Party. Sure, they can argue for a light touch; but at the end of the day they accept the authority of the ballot box and of government by Westminster. An anarchist cannot accept either of those things. --Richardrj ^talk ^email 22:41, 6 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'd suggest re-reading Anarchist and Tory, anarchism doesn't solely have to be about the abolishing of the entire government - at least not from my reading of the article. Again as with almost all political philosophies there are areas of overlapping so it is very easy for people to be supporters of parts of each philosophy. ny156uk (talk) 23:05, 6 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

My goodness, I did not expect my casual aside to bear such fruit! This is not the place to discuss my politics at length, but it is indeed possible to be an anarchist-a libertarian if you prefer-and a Tory; to resent the intrusions of the state on one's personal freedom; to value liberty above all things. And describing oneself as Tory in an English context is about far, far more than voting for the Conservative Party. Orwell did indeed talk of himself as a 'Tory Anarchist' in the early part of his career, though so far as I am aware he never voted Conservative. I'm being disingenuous, of course; his remark was most likely made tounge-in-cheek. In later life he became a democratic socialist, though of a highly idiosyncratic variety, one might almost say of a Tory and anarchist variety! I, at one and the same time, can embrace the politics of Edmund Burke and the philosophy of Max Stirner. I choose always to think for myself; to select for myself and to live for myself. I choose to be a Tory and an anarchist, not to fit easily into anyone’s narrow scheme of things! Clio the Muse (talk) 01:35, 7 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It is the other way round: Orwell defined himself as a 'conservative anarchist' not a 'tory anarchist'. I don't know if he voted Conservative either or voted at all.

Orwell was someone who has a strong attachment to tradition - particularly of Britain - but also a deep-seated dislike and distrust of arbitrary authority and government interference, whether on a local, national or supranational level. That is: a conservative anarchist. 217.168.1.246 (talk) 01:47, 7 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Italian heraldic question

I have come across an Italian crest which is surmounted by a crown with 5 balls ~~(which would indicate a Baron in England)~~. What does this mean under Italian heraldic rules please? It seems to be the crest of Francesco Ognibene of Palermo. It could be described as a lion on its hind legs facing right and holding fleur-de-lys (or 3 feathers) in its right paw, on a field azure. Maybe there is a better place for me to ask this. Thank you in advance. CarbonLifeForm (talk) 21:28, 5 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If no-one hear can help, you could try Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Heraldry and vexillology. Algebraist 21:44, 5 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Crowns usually indicate nobility, but I'm unsure about the Italian rules. It doesn't look like there's a heraldry wikiproject on it:wiki, or I would ask them. -- I. Pankonin (t·c) 07:17, 6 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

References

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