Wikipedia:Peer review/Marshlink line/archive1

Marshlink line

I like travelling on this line; it's completely different to anywhere else I might go. I improved the article to GA some years back, and since then, I've expanded the article using more sources and documented more of the history. Through some discussions on the talk page, there have been some other ideas of what else to include. So I'm going to put up a formal PR to see what else is required before we can consider FAC. Your thoughts, please. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 15:24, 14 October 2019 (UTC)

Couple of initial thoughts:

• Several claims are cited to Rob Sissons' book, which is published by Trafford Publishing and hence a self-published source, though Sissons has contributed regularly to The Railway Magazine. Similarly, this website will probably get criticised, though I would personally trust what the Marshlink Action Group say to be factually accurate. There's one citation to kentrail.org.uk; again I would trust David Glasspool to be accurate and correct in what he writes, though the only thing being cited is that trains still run to Dungeness Power Station, which should be easy enough to switch.
• When exactly did the name "Marshlink" get introduced? From looking through sources, it seems to be on privatisation by Connex in 1996. I'd quite like a source with an actual date.

Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 15:55, 14 October 2019 (UTC)

Heritage stuff: There is a template for National Heritage List for England links, {{NHLE}}, which I have converted three refs to use. You mention that Rye station, Rye Signal box and Appledore station are listed. Also listed are:

• Former level crossing keeper's cottage at Rye - 1252167
• Appledore Goods shed - 1245944
• Ham station - 1391381
• Railway bridge, Queens Road, Hastings - 1043419 (the site says the bridge was built in 1841, but as Hastings station did not open until 1851, this appears to be an error}.

I found these using the National Heritage List for England Map Search tool (here), whic provides a handy way to search for stuff in a locale without knowing what things are actually called. --DavidCane (talk) 22:20, 14 October 2019 (UTC)

The Queen's Road bridge date of 1841 is definitely wrong; it could not have been constructed before 1846 as no Act of Parliament was passed for the line (and hence it would have been illegal). Grace's Guide and Hastings Observer both say it opened in 1898, replacing the original road tunnel. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 11:26, 15 October 2019 (UTC)

Are there any good sources for old images? Anything from the 19th century is going to be out of copyright, surely? Also I can't find a free image of the gatekeeper's cottage by the Grove / Rope Walk level crossing in Rye. I can get there easily enough if I've got a free afternoon and the weather's nice, but that's a big "if" now we're in the throes of autumn. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 10:46, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

Some comments by Amakuru

History section - Construction:

• "The line was part of an original proposal by the Brighton Lewes and Hastings Railway (BLHR) to extend its coast route to Hastings" - not sure what the word "original" is referring to here. Was there originally a proposal which was later implemented? Or do you just mean the proposal was original because nobody had ever made it before?
• When did the BLHR make the proposal?
• I don't really understand the relationship between the three companies outlined in the first two paragraphs. In particular:
  • Was the BLHR a subsidiary of the LB&SCR at the time? If so it should be spelled out.
  • "with a caveat that the SER could take over operation if they so wished" - why was this? And does it mean that the BLHR could build the whole line and then the SER would swan in and take it away from them? Sounds a little odd.
  • "the SER easily managed to acquire the contract" - which contract? The previous point said that Parliament had authorised them to take over the line if they wished, so was this contract a separate thing from that?
  • "As part of the construction contract" - is this also the same contract?
  • "Construction began in early 1847" - which were the first sections to be constructed? It's quite surprising that they started construction when there were seemingly (from the next sentence) quite major disagreements about route.
• More later!  — Amakuru (talk) 11:46, 15 October 2019 (UTC)

  Just a quick holding reply, I know more about the history and politics behind the line now compared to when I originally improved the article to GA, and this section could do with a rewrite, which I'll try and get onto this evening. That should hopefully address all of the above concerns. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 12:24, 15 October 2019 (UTC)

   — Amakuru (talk) 13:32, 15 October 2019 (UTC)

  Okay, I've rewritten that, so hopefully it makes a bit more sense. Part of the problem is the in-depth book sources I've got assume you know the basic history about the various railway companies, so just skip over basic facts like when exactly the LBSCR was formed, and what from. Aaargh! Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 19:54, 15 October 2019 (UTC)

  The LBSCR - like the Great Western - expanded primarily by amalgamation and absorption, rather than projecting its own new routes. If they were interested in a particular town or area, they would wait for a small company to be formed which would build the line. During construction, the LBSCR would offer to work the line upon completion; once it was opened the LBSCR could see how profitable it was before buying the small company outright a few years later. This reduced the financial risk to the LBSCR, but it didn't always pay off - some of the lines taken over in this manner were always loss-makers. All this means that LBSCR history is complicated by a vast number of little railways, many of which never ran a train of their own. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 19:49, 16 October 2019 (UTC)

Clarification needed

In the Later Improvements section the following needs clarification: "The station was never modernised, and retained its original mid-19th century wooden platforms." The previous sentence is about Snailham Halt which is implied to have opened on 1 July 1907 (year not stated). If it was opened in 1907, how did it have a mid-19th century platform?--DavidCane (talk) 11:03, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

The source says "original wooden platforms", but I was getting confused with other stations that opened in February 1851. The halt opened on 1 July 1907 as stated. Anyway, fixed. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 11:06, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

Distances

@Redrose64: (or anyone) Do you know what the source is for the distances in the infobox? It currently says "26 miles 21 chains"; McCarthy / McCarthy p.53 says it's 28 miles, but I suspect that's just rounding for convenience for the reader, and what's in the article is probably right. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 14:07, 2 November 2019 (UTC)

It depends upon what you take as the start of the line. According to

• Yonge, John (November 2008) [1994]. Jacobs, Gerald (ed.). Railway Track Diagrams 5: Southern & TfL (3rd ed.). Bradford on Avon: Trackmaps. map 11B. ISBN 978-0-9549866-4-3.

Ashford has several quoted distances:

• Platforms 1/2 west end - 56 mi 2 ch
• Station (domestic ticket office?) - 56 mi 12 ch
• Platforms 1/2 east end - 56 mi 16 ch
• Ashford 'D' Junction - 56 mi 20 ch

Map 18C shows Hastings station is at 82 miles 33 chains, so subtracting, it could be from 26 miles 13 chains up to 26 miles 31 chains. The 26 miles 21 chains figure may be arrived at by using the mileage of the station, probably the domestic ticket office. I can't see how a figure of 28 miles might be arrived at, unless they're taking the southern endpoint as Bo-Peep Junction, 1 mile 44 chains west of Hastings station - Ashford west end to Bo-Peep would therefore be 27 miles 75 chains. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 12:51, 3 November 2019 (UTC)

Okay, the Trackmaps sound like the more authoritative source; Template:Marshlink Line RDT shows the Ashford distance using the centrepoint of the station. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 12:53, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

Route Recognition:1 - Southern Region (Colin J. Marsden, Ian Allen 1985 ISBN 0-7110-1553-8) has distances between the stations in miles as follows : Ashford (5.53) Ham Street (2.98) Appledore [(6.96) Dungeness] (6.83) Rye (1.85) Winchelsea (4.27) Doleham (1.27) Three Oaks (2.71) Ore (0.90) Hastings Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 14:01, 9 November 2019 (UTC)