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Everywhere at the End of Time

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Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch • Watch peer review

I've listed this article for peer review because I want to bring it up to FA candidacy, but am not sure if it meets the criteria. This is a useful page for doubts on whether a source of the article is high-quality or not.

Thanks, Wetrorave (talk) 13:48, 15 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Gerald Waldo Luis

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Thanks for the review on Living in the Age of Airplanes! Right now at 2:11:18 of the whole thing while reviewing this. GeraldWL 09:16, 17 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Be careful. Something is expecting you on Stage 5.
Stage 5 is definitely terrifying. Somehow Midsommar struck in my head while listening to this. Right now at 5:50:00, still going strong.
The worst part are the clarity moments that give you false hope. At 3:40:08 it's very possible to hear music but then it goes back to noise again, and by 3:40:48 I can hear a voice saying "Who are you? WHO ARE YOU?!". Wetrorave (talk) 14:02, 17 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Also, please do not use level 2 or 3 headers (==...== and ===...===) below to break up the review. Use level 4 (====...====) and so on, and level 5 (=====...=====) for subsections of your own comments. Wetrorave (talk) 13:01, 17 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
How did I not spot that? Thanks for observing. GeraldWL 13:45, 17 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Lead and infobox
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Background
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  • "scene of filmmaker Stanley Kubrick's movie"-- change "movie" to "film" per consistency with film articles.
  • "In 2011, the Caretaker released An Empty Bliss Beyond This World. The record was"-- suggest changing to "In 2011, the Caretaker released An Empty Bliss Beyond This World, which was".
Music and stages
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(Stages 1–3)

  • "Stage 1, according to Kirby, is the album where "we experience the first signs of memory loss."" Better rephrase to "According to Kirby, Stage 1 is the album depicting initial signs of memory loss."
  • "drama works"-- better link to Woody Allen filmography.
  • "the first stage as "really like an old person daydreaming", and"-- not needed; feels like a repetition of "He calls it the one that is "most like a beautiful daydream.""
  • "compared it to the bathroom scene of The Shining"-- it would be more helpful to have a note describing the bathroom scene, cause as I remember, there are several bathroom scenes in The Shining.

(Stages 4–6)

Production
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Artwork and packaging
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  • "Because it's all glitched. It's all nonsense in a way." Paraphrase: "Because it's all glitched [and] nonsense in a way." Also in the quote box, an emdash before the author would be great.
  • Link oil painting.
  • The last paragraphs in the stages subsections, that discuss the artwork, should probably be moved here.
    • Those paragraphs discuss the individual album covers and how they relate to the concept, whereas Artwork and packaging discusses who made them. Plus, without those last paragraphs, the infoboxes would be too big and overlap sections, so I think it's best for them to stay where they are. Wetrorave (talk) 12:38, 17 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Link Berlin.
  • "the musician noticed"-- again, "the musician" better be changed as "he".
  • "Ivan Seal (pictured)"-- don't think "(pictured)" is needed, as the entire photo is just Seal.
Release and promotion
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  • "When asked what studies interest"-- what kind of studies? Scientific studies? Literary studies? Scholarly studies?
  • "The musician stated"-- the musician, "He". There seems to be more "The musician"-s though, you can just Ctrl+F it.
    • What is the problem with "the musician" though? What other musician could the term be referring to? Wetrorave (talk) 12:38, 17 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      • Unless it hasn't been stated like "Filmmaker Stanley Kubrick", it has been stated that Kirby is a musician. That's why I find the many "the musician" repetitive. The common practice I see is interchanging between the name and the pronouns, so in this case, between "Kirby" and "He". GeraldWL 13:41, 17 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
        • Alright, I tried to remove any instances of "the musician" now. I think I was initially trying to make the prose more varied but, as you said, this actually made it less varied. Wetrorave (talk) 13:50, 17 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Critical reception
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(Accolades)

  • All good here.
Impact and popularity
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  • Except for its last two sentences, the first para seems to fit more at "Critical reception" instead of here.
    • The first para directly talks about the emotional impact of the album on music critics, as well as claims that it is Kirby's best work or comments on its influence on a certain genre. I think this kind of info definitely belongs in an Impact section.
      • I have an idea. What if "Critical reception" is changed to just "Reception", and this section becomes a sub?
        • That doesn't seem like it's gonna work, given that there are two images together and separating the first para of Impact and popularity from the rest would make the Memories Overlooked image be out of place in the article. I think overall, the first para of Impact and popularity (which surrounds the emotional aspect of the record) fits well with the rest (which surrounds how this album "breaks you"). Wetrorave (talk) 14:34, 17 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
          • I don't think I was clear. File:Everywhere Wikipedia subsection.png-- here's a screenshot of a dummy edit I did showing what I proposed. Basically merging the section to the reception hierarchy. GeraldWL 15:53, 17 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
            • Oh ok, I thought you meant to merge only the first paragraph into Reception, but it's the whole section. And I'm not entirely sure about this. The model of the article body at WP:ALBUMSTYLE recommends that there be a section for "further public reception outside of just critical assessments or sales figures." This is also applicable for "the legacy that a certain recording has had on a genre". I think "Impact and popularity", as a separate section, does this job well, and deserves its own part; let me know your discretion. Wetrorave (talk) 16:05, 17 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
              • I just think that because there's some reviews in the legacy section, it should not be separate from the reception section. The essay doesn't really stress the need for it to be a standalone section. "reception" basically means how the work is being received, which is also what that section covers. GeraldWL 16:34, 17 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • ""Unexpected Hit and Niche Discovery""-- maybe link Niche market?
    • Also, did you finish Stage 6 by now? Wetrorave (talk) 14:17, 17 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      • I just finished Stage 6 some 10 seconds ago. Wow. Beautiful album. A family member of mine is suffering from dementia too, so this is hitting hard. I might consider buying the CD. GeraldWL 14:28, 17 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
        • Not trying to get too personal here :), but did you cry? I didn't have any close experiences with dementia and I cried, so I wonder how's it like for someone who had this kind of experience. Wetrorave (talk) 14:36, 17 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
          • Its fine, not personal at all. I cried at track 1 and the last. There's an existential to it, and I start to wonder what would happen when I die, while reflecting on how my household is right now with the fam member. Is it going to be harmony or emptiness? What did he ever do to deserve this hellhole? I can see why the critics think 1-3 is bad, but I don't think it's romanticizing at all: on the verge of death this is literally how it is. Stuff like these are good for reflection and a reminder that life is short. GeraldWL 15:07, 17 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
            • Agreed. Overall, it's an album that just makes anyone much more aware of their own mortality, y'know? Life can be like the decaying blue tape on that blank canvas, just barely trying to hold on, but ultimately failing. It's too fragile to keep going. Wetrorave (talk) 15:18, 17 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The others
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Hey Gerald, I'm not close to my desktop at this moment so I'll respond to your comments when I'm back there Benjamin. Wetrorave (talk) 11:09, 17 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Noted! Feel free to respond whenever you can. GeraldWL 11:40, 17 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Alright G, now I'm back there. I've responded to your comments. Wetrorave (talk) 12:20, 17 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

DMT Biscuit

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[More comments TBA]

Lead
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  • "Everywhere at the End of Time is the best-selling dark ambient release on Bandcamp." – this isn't lead-worthy; Dark ambient and Bandcamp are both niche enough to whereas this detail is inconsequential to most. If there is a citation that calls it the best-selling Dark ambient album in general, that'd be different. DMT Biscuit (talk) 21:30, 12 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The record is regarded by critics and listeners as emotional, with some calling it a dark album." – this is repetitive.
  • Because it was already mentioned at "They felt emotional about the complete edition," right? This was done, as well as re-worded "ambitious concept" to "Alzheimer's-driven concept" for more neutrality. However, I did not remove the "dark album" part, so this suggestion was in practice  Partly done; it now appears later as "Some users called it a dark album, correlating to further creepypasta stories at the time of its TikTok popularity." Is it okay this way? Wetrorave (talk) 02:01, 13 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Background
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  • "the Caretaker was a pseudonym of English electronic musician Leyland Kirby that sampled big band records." → "English electronic musician Leyland Kirby sampled big band records under the pseudonym The Caretaker." - it's confusing to the average reader to contextualize the project as district from Kirby himself - a person unto itself; it's, of course, a part of the theatrics but we're nominally cynical audience members.
  • "it" → "Kirby" - same reason as above
  • "the Caretaker released" - take a guess as to my gripe (it's the same reason I didn't refer to Phil Elverum, in A Crow Looked at Me, as Mount Eerie.)
  •  Done not only here but in other places at Background. However, this was not at "The alias would first explore memory loss with [2005 album]," because Kirby himself has spoken in an Ondarock interview (I can't remember which, ironically) that even his albums from the 90s already explored memory loss—only (badly) distorting 80s pop songs rather that 20s ballroom music.
  • Trangent, but that note of 80s songs not working is rather astue. I heard a remix album of Everywhere - Nowhere at the millennium of space - that did that idea and it worked well until I got to the third track, to which i simply said: Oh, It's Every Breath...a song I recall quite well. Kind of fell apart :)
  • The caption about Al Bowly could expand on his presence on the album.
  •  Partly done, I've expanded on his presence on the Caretaker project by adding "a big band artist extensively sampled by the Caretaker" now; some paragraphs ahead there is "According to Kirby, Bowlly is 'one of the main guys' sampled by him.", so this seems appropriate. Wetrorave (talk) 18:57, 13 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Music and Stages
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  • Considering Kirby removed the lyrics, the use of "poetic" here is a bit confusing. If it's a mark of quality, then that could be editorializing.
  • "Another musician likened to Everywhere is Burial" → Fellow electronic musician, Burial's style has been compared to the sound of Everywhere. - The current wording may imply that Everywhere is a musician and confuse readers.
  • "Track titles suggest a light mood, with names such as "Childishly Fresh Eyes" and "The Loves of My Entire Life".[10] Other names, such as "We Don't Have Many Days" and "Slightly Bewildered", portray sadder themes associated with old age.[23]" - I feel this could be merged, by saying: "The album features a range of emotions, mostly by the notions its song titles invoke."
  • Does Palozzo (2016) expand on its cinematic comparisons? I feel some readers may be confused in regards to the relation of film and music, especially whether it's subtextual, aesthetic, musical...etc.
  • Yep
  • "sadder emotional state" → "Sorrow" - more formal prose.
  • "a result of using a sample from a different performance of the piece" - I can't find this supported by Hazelwood (2021) or Doran (2016); I'd appreciate it being highlighted.
  • It's at Doran-2016: "a different version of the same song", however I've now changed it to be more accurate: "a result of using a sample from a different version of the piece." Wetrorave (talk) 00:53, 16 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Although Kirby described "It's Just a Burning Memory" as upbeat, "What Does It Matter How My Heart Breaks" sounded "as if the band haven't had a coffee yet." → WDIMHMHB (obviously write the abbreviation out), in contrast to IJABM, sounded downbeat to Kirby.
  • "I can't believe it's just a burning memory / Heartaches, heartaches / What does it matter how my heart breaks?" - are these italics for emphasis? If so, the text should clarify.
  • "heavily differs" → "differs heavily" - flows better.
  • "albeit" → [an alternative, per your discretion] - albeit invokes I a little too much – and, to quote the late great David Berman, "I is a pretty heavy concept"; it's also probably a MOS violation. Either way, best left aside.
Production
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  • "on his flat" - or in his flat?
R&P
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  • I don't see the value or insight of [62], beyond being a charming joke.
I&P
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  •  Done: changed to Considered by few to be among the best music releases of the 2010s, Everywhere at the End of Time was complimented by some critics as Kirby's magnum opus.
  • "They often described Stage 6 with additional praise, identifying it as a "jaw-dropping piece of sonic art" with "a unique force." - Better suited for the preceding section.
  • "...with a Tiny Mix Tapes writer attributing this to Stage 6 "going fully corny in its final minutes." - I don't see the causal link between this statement and what it succeeds. An explanation would be appreciated.
  •  Done - you are correct, changed to with a Tiny Mix Tapes writer highlighting Stage 6 "going fully corny in its final minutes".
  • "Arielle Gordon of Bandcamp Daily attributed to the deterioration of the stages" - probably worth mentioning the "serene" quality, that is more common of ambient music.
  • "however, music has been proven to make patients happier." - Although I'm layman-certain that is correct, I don't see it supported by Ezra (2018)
  • "later called by TikTok" - This seemed very much to be a description by Variety. Lambast if I am wrong.
  • I'm not exactly sure about this as well but it seems like the report is by TikTok themselves. On the source's first paragraph, the magazine refers to the report as TikTok's: When it comes to music, TikTok is not your usual platform, so it’s not surprising that its first year-end report has a different approach. Also, after we skeptically asked for more data, they sent our request to their U.S. music editorial lead, William Gruger [...] who lived up to his title with some detailed details and data beyond what was in the press release, which are woven into the following article. This is indeed a bit post-awareness confusing at first, but reading the text it seems like this is a report that this William Gruger (a TikTok employee) sent to the magazine. Wetrorave (talk) 13:24, 23 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Spotchecks
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  • Hazelwood (2021): The article says that "Kirby's work focuses less on physical decay than that record does", however, Hazelwood writes that the differentiation is that The Loops are physically disoriented - very much implying that Everywhere doesn't feature physical disorientation.
  • "On the last six minutes, a song from Selected Memories can be heard." - I don't see this supported by Vukos (2021).
  • "The series ends with a minute of silence, representing the death of the patient." - I mostly don't see this supported by Ryce (2019); the concluding paragraphs mentions the drone, not silence. The "kind of oblivion" mentioned in both is, of course, present in both.
  •  Done - I've simply removed the ref so that this can be sourced to Hazelwood-2021, which talks about both the silence and the death at for one minute, there is only silence, placed here for exactly one reason: to give The Caretaker, our subject, the moment of silence they deserve. With that minute, the losing battle and long decline are over. Wetrorave (talk) 13:24, 23 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Bowe (2019): "pale romantizcation"; supported by both.
  • The Quietus (2019): "it does not present Kirby's sound as the Caretaker, portraying the patient's anxiety"; supported by both
Conclusion
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Good shape, good article. A thorough look over sources would be benefical - and maybe a trip to the Wikipedia:WikiProject Guild of Copy Editors.

@DMT Biscuit: thanks a lot for this thorough review. I believe I have addressed all issues in this edit, as well as re-wording Reynolds said Kirby "could have renamed himself The Caregiver to Reynolds said the Caretaker "could have renamed himself The Caregiver for more clarity. Wetrorave (talk) 13:24, 23 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Wetrorave: Your welcome. I've looked over your rationales/clarifications and are satisfied with all. FAC-ready, in my opinion. DMT Biscuit (talk) 16:21, 23 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I will now close this review then, if that is the case, but for now I'll focus on finding a mentor. Wish me luck at FAC :) Wetrorave (talk) 01:14, 24 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Misc
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  • Hey DMT, I'll likely close this PR when you are done with it since you (and various others really) have said that the article is ready for FAC. However, is it really good to have a "mentor" when putting an article at FAC for the first time? Did you have one for ACLaM? Wetrorave (talk) 02:01, 13 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • This is tangentially related but I found this journal article which discusses the Caretaker in the context of Hauntology:https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.1525/fq.2012.66.1.16 If you're unable to access it, you can through the Library Program. It's a very useful tool - although maybe outside the realm of Leyland Kirby; Vaporwave, I'm sure, will have seen some interest.
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