Wikipedia:Peer review/Chetana Nagavajara/archive1

Chetana Nagavajara

I've listed this article for peer review to seek advice and suggestions for edits before nominating featured article. This article was opposed for featured article (Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Chetana Nagavajara/archive1) previously. Commentators mainly comment about "prose" tune-up and excess usage of too formal words. I had made some edit (from the introduction until German and comparative literature subtopic). Any comments on how do I make this article better and meet the criteria for featured article would be really appreciated as this is my first nomination.

Thanks, Eevnnap (talk) 11:42, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Draken Bowser

Reserving a spot. Will get back to you soon. Draken Bowser (talk) 14:43, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Aight, there's quite a lot of trimming required, I'm gonna forego the usual "proposals" commonly used during the FA/PR-process and just edit the article directly. Feel free to reverse and/or discuss as necessary per the standard rules of WP:BRD. Draken Bowser (talk) 20:54, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Does "distinguished" as used for Prof. Nagavajara and the Universities have a specific "technical" meaning, or is it just an adjective stressing their importance? Draken Bowser (talk) 20:57, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Although the paragraphs still communicates without the word "distinguished", The title distinguished Professor are given to the faculty member (professor) who served distinct service in the University for a certain period, usually more than a decade.(To my knowledge). However, the title also could be nominated by the others. Eevnnap (talk) 11:06, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

If it is a bestowed title rather than a value judgememt I think we can keep it in. Draken Bowser (talk) 12:51, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

It is true that distinguished professor is a valid title, but after some citation recheck, it seems that Prof. Nagavajara was promoted to professor emeritus not distinguished professor. That was false information, My apologies. Eevnnap (talk) 13:35, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

Thank you very much for your kind involvement. This article is my first on wiki, so please do not hesitate to point out how can I improve this article. Eevnnap (talk) 11:05, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

A few ideas:

• "he received guidance and instruction from his grandmother" - I think we should state explicitly whether her guidance was also concerning a specific skill set or general advice.
• "Nagavajara played a pivotal role in realizing the collegiate system's educational ideal, conceived by ML Pin Malakul, former Minister of Education and former President of Silpakorn University, alongside his young colleagues" - It is not clear to me what is meant by the underlined section, or what the relationship between Nagavajara and Malakul is. Draken Bowser (talk) 06:00, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

• That would be a good idea, his grandmother taught him about oral literature. while his father and mother taught him music and English accordingly.
• ML Pin Malakul was a former ministry of education in Thailand and chancellor of Silpakorn University, before Nagavajara's placement. My intention regarding the underlined sentence was that Prof. Nagavajara alongside his colleagues drove the development of ideal higher education system, which ML Malakul initiated (as seen in the attempt of constructing Sanam Chandra campus).

Eevnnap (talk) 11:22, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

It's been a while, are there any more suggestions for the edit?

I've made a print-out that I'm gonna revise. Got stuck doing a few source reviews over at WP:FAC, I expect to get back to you before this weekend. Draken Bowser (talk) 10:43, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Starting from the end to mix things up:

Influences

• It is not clear what "culture of criticizing" is, the text must explain this to make it accessible to readers unfamiliar with Nagavajara.
  • I will try explain in the text, it informally means the norm or act of criticizing works as a community or culture.
• We generally use the surname whenever we shorten it, so "Nagavajara" not "Chetana".
  • Understood, I will scan through and edit accordingly.
• We generally avoid the use of stylistic connectors like "Moreover" or "In addition", there's a decent guide on this somewhere. If I find it I'll post a link.
  • Thank you, I will change this also.
• I'm gonna do some direct copy editing of the middle sections
  • I'm just guessing "completed in 1998", plese change to "began in" or whatever is correct.
  • "Chetana is the general of humanistic and socialism division, who are capable to reliably and nobly combat against the science fields. And certainly, I highly admired him and his fields." - is this a translation from thai?
    • Yes, this is quoted from Prof. Wanchai De-eknamkul, he used analogy to compare Prof. Nagavajara with military general of the "socialism and humanism" (as in academic division) that "fights" with the other field which is sciences, if that make sense. I tried to capture that analogy he used but if it does not seems in place would you recommend editing this?
      • My guess is (without knowing any Thai at all) that the quote is still very close to the original Thai version. When translating quotes between languages we have to translate from Thai into idiomatic English, that is we have to change word order and use of the definite/indefinite as well as singular/plural to correctly represent the quote in standard English. Additionally, we have to do all this without changing the meaning of the quote, not a simple thing to do by any means. Draken Bowser (talk) 20:49, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes it is indeed. I tried to make a change, without touching the analogy used. Is it any better? Eevnnap (talk) 01:45, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

A lot better. I tweaked it slightly, and rewrote parts of another paragraph, hopefully improving the flow of it. Draken Bowser (talk) 21:58, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

• "His work is not without controversies" - would generally be a nice introduction, but since we already have a header doing the work for us, sentences like this are usually considered "fluff" and removed.

Awards and honors

• The use of "unprecedented" and "has set precedent" in the same sentence sounds a bit repetitive

Overall, I think you could benefit from brushing up on your prose skills. If you haven't done Tony 1's exercises I think you could learn a lot, I sure did! Best Draken Bowser (talk) 20:55, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

I sure will give it a try, thank you. Eevnnap (talk) 00:58, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Lead

Leads generally follow the same order in which the ideas are presented in the body of the article. Also, leads of 230 words are commonly presented in three, at most four paragraphs. Try to rearrange the lead to align with these points. Draken Bowser (talk) 20:49, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

Life and academic career

• I don't think we need thai translations for the most part, they're available at the other end of the wikilink and the parantheses clutter the text. Although, we should perhaps keep the thai translation of his relatives names, I'm unsure of the policy on this.
• "foundational notions" sounds a bit unusual, "core beliefs" or perhaps even better "(core) values" is probably more familiar to readers of English.
• "Throughout his academic odyssey" - these kinds of opening statements are generally considered redundant. The entire paragraph actually looks a bit out of place. Maybe the first part should be moved to "influences", and the final sentence to "Humanities education and Thai higher education"?
• The section contains several clauses that would be considered "puffery". Often it's best to follow the principle of show, don't tell. Don't tell the reader how impressive Nagavajara is, show them by recounting his exploits and achievements in a neutral manner – problematic sections are underlined (and might warrant a rewrite, or outright removal):

• "Nagavajara's daily commute along Phaya Thai road on his bicycle was emblematic of his youthful vigor and enthusiasm for both sports and music, endearing him to the community."
• "he assumed the position of deputy director of SEMEO's secretariat office, further solidifying his impact in the realm of education."
• "underscoring his commitment to holistic educational development. In recognition of his scholarly achievements and contributions, Nagavajara was promoted to full professorship in 1983, a testament to his academic prowess and leadership."
• "Silpakorn University honored his enduring legacy by appointing him Emeritus Professor of German, acknowledging his profound impact on the institution."
• "Throughout this period, Nagavajara continued to receive numerous honorary doctorate degrees and awards, further testament to his enduring influence and esteem within the academic community."

Time for a break. Draken Bowser (talk) 22:17, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

• For Thai translation and RTGS, I'm still unsure whether removing them is a good idea. From a Thai person's perspective, the pronounciation and readings of names that are transliterated from Thai might be challenging English readers.
• I trimmed out the lavish using of clauses as suggested. Some rewrote and some removed, to fit the writing style of wikipedia.
• However, I'm still figuring out the lead for the article. It might take some time.

Eevnnap (talk) 01:45, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

Since the lead should follow the body, we might not need to address that now. We could focus on the body, aiming for comprehensiveness, and return to the lead once we're content with the rest. Draken Bowser (talk) 08:20, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

Understood. I'm working on the addressing of books names that are not align with the official translations. Eevnnap (talk) 08:49, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

German and comparative litterature

• This book was later used by Roger Paulin in the biography of Schlegel. - I'd slightly rephrase this to clarify that it was used as a source (one of many I assume).
• Final paragraph: we generally dont mix italics and quotation marks. Italics are used for complete works (including books), and quotation marks for articles/chapters published in journals/books.
• Reviewers lauded Nagavajara's incorporation of Thai cultural theory, such as the "alto bamboo xylophone theory" (Thai: ทฤษฎีระนาดทุ้ม, RTGS: Tritsadi Ranat Thum), which posits that true leadership is akin to playing the alto bamboo xylophone (Thai: ระนาดทุ้ม, RTGS: Ranat Thum) not alto xylophone (Thai: ระนาดเอก - this simile needs to be explained, otherwise readers unfamiliar with these instruments, like me :), won't get it. Draken Bowser (talk) 19:28, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

  I find it hard to translate the quote and Prof. Nagavajara's idea into English without sounding weird or out of place. Like the word "alto bamboo xylophone" seems very strange in English but apparently this is the most accurate translation. However, I will try to make an edit without the phrase being too confusing. Thank you for your suggestions! Eevnnap (talk) 12:25, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

  The quote was renewed. I changed the using of musical terms into the more common ones and added the definition of "Tritsadi Ranat Thum". I hope the section makes more sense now. Eevnnap (talk) 02:39, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

  Yeah, that's better. Draken Bowser (talk) 19:41, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

  @Draken Bowser and Eevnnap: i’ll see this peer review being closed unless more comments/responses are made in the coming days. 750h+ 15:18, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

  I think I'm done for now. The article needs a bit more tuning, but most of the puffery has been trimmed and some improvements to the prose have also been achieved. A little more info on what he did at the various universities could probably be added, but it's tricky to balance since there shouldn't be too much redundancy between the chronological section and the other themed sections. I recommend a little more work in these areas, and especially evaluating the text with respect to a comprehensiveness. Best of luck! Draken Bowser (talk) 16:41, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

  Eevnnap hasn't been active for a few weeks, so I believe i'll be closing. 750h+ 23:59, 29 May 2024 (UTC)