Wikipedia:New Zealand Wikipedians' notice board/Archive 8

This is an archive of past discussions on Wikipedia:New Zealand Wikipedians' notice board. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current main page.

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Reform governments merge

I've proposed a merge of First Reform Government of New Zealand, World War I Coalition Government of New Zealand and Second Reform Government of New Zealand into Reform Government of New Zealand. (see Talk:First Reform Government of New Zealand) It's a bit inconsistent to see the middle one as seperate, but not each Labour coalition since 1999, and besides, they are generally seen as one government. --Helenalex 22:29, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Finally done. I've also altered all the links to those pages so they link to the new one. Many of them used the term 'First Reform Government' to refer to all three governments, so we have a bit more consistancy now. --Helenalex 23:18, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Maori voting rights in Australia article

A discussion at the Wikipedia:Australian Wikipedians' notice board led to a stub article on Maori voting rights in Australia being created. As mentioned in the article, Maori were the only non-Europeans awarded voting rights in the newly federated Australia. No one, however, is quite sure why this happened. If anyone here has the inside word on this, I'd be pleased to hear about it. --Roisterer 23:00, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Could it be a similar situation as in apartheid-era South Africa, where full blooded kaffir negroes were at the bottom of the barrel, whereas a halfcast negro/white was of a much higher ranking than simply negro? ie, they had more white rights. Not referenced, just my pondering. --Hayden5650 01:14, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

There might be some similarities. Although Maori were no more European than Aborigines and less so than, say, Indians, they were often seen as being a superior type of 'native', probably because they were quite keen to adopt various European ways of life - writing, Christianity etc. There was also a theory that Maori were actually of Aryan descent. All of this is in Paradise Reforged (and I think also in Making Peoples) by James Belich. It doesn't explain the Australian thing but I would guess that NZ somehow managed to get Australia to accept the idea. It would have helped that Maori were never going to 'swamp' Australia, which was the big fear with the Chinese and other Asian groups. And at this point it was widely believed that Maori were dying out. Another thing to remember is that the Australian federal constitution has a provision allowing NZ to become a state of Australia, and since Maori had more or less equal voting rights in NZ and the guarantee of being treated as British subjects in the Treaty, it might have been felt that the 'Maori can vote' clause was necessary if NZ was going to become a state. So I suppose there were three things which set Maori apart from other non-whites: 1) supposedly being more intelligent and civilised than other 'primitive' races, 2) a fairly low population, unlike non-white groups such as the Chinese who were generally regarded as being more advanced than Maori and other 'uncivilised' peoples, but were seen as likely to 'swamp' Europeans and 3) their special recognition under the Treaty and also in NZ generally. Sorry I can't provide any references other than Belich - I'm out of the country at present and anyway don't know a lot about Australian history. --Helenalex 17:32, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

I also read a book a while back about colonial Ceylon which mentioned that Maori could vote in elections there when many of the indigenous Ceylonese could not. The author added that a census from colonial Ceylon indicated there was one Maori resident, and it was unclear whether he ever voted in Ceylonese elections, so whether or not the franchise ever meant anything is questionable. --Roisterer 23:38, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Having been reading quite a bit about Australian Federation int he past week, I would suspect that it was done because Australia wanted NZ to become a state (and their constitution still allows for us to become one if we decide to), but Māori already had the vote (since 1893) in NZ, and they would strongly oppose union if it meant they would be disenfranchised. dramatic 01:37, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

I think dramatic has it right. NZ government representatives were involved in the drafting of the Australian Constitution as there was a belief during that a period that NZ would likely be (or would soon become) part of the Australian federation. That believe dissipated, but Maori already had voting rights by that stage so that clause would have had to be there if NZ ever was to become a state. BigBadaboom0 07:25, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Names of Māori iwi

Are there standardised or otherwise predominant versions of iwi names? Previously, I’ve named or moved articles on Māori iwi to reflect the names of iwi as they appear in Te Ara. However, having encountered "shorter" versions of these names – e.g., Tūhoe vs Ngai Tūhoe, Whakatōhea vs Te Whakatōhea, Rongomaiwahine vs Ngāti Rongomaiwahine – in other sources, I’d like to know which of these naming styles would be best to use here on Wikipedia. Cheers. – Liveste 06:53, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Te Ara seems to follow a coherent set of conventions, so why not stick to that. The shorter versions might (might) be less formal. Otherwise it would be a matter of contacting each group and asking for their preferences - not really on. Kahuroa 11:39, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

there is also a huge list of iwi and hapū at Iwi-Hapū Names List maintained by The National library. The narrower terms under each iwi are the hapū, or under each waka, the iwi of that waka. I think there are something like 1500 names in all Kahuroa 07:38, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the website, Kahuroa. Its naming convention is, for the most part, consistent with the naming convention used in Te Ara:

The 'longer versions' (for want of a better description) of iwi names are preferred to the 'shorter versions' in all cases.
Macron usage is consistent with both sites. However, 'A' is listed before 'Ā' in alphabetised lists, e.g., Atiwaku is listed before Ārau Kuku. If this were applied in Wikipedia, Te Whakatōhea would be listed before of Te Āti Awa in alphabetised categories. In this case, I suggest applying {{DEFAULTSORT}} with unmacronned iwi names, e.g., {{DEFAULTSORT:Te Ati Awa}}.

There are a few notable instances where Te Ara and the Iwi-Hapū Names List differ. Examples listed below are as they appear in the latter.

'Kāi Tahu' is preferred to 'Ngāi Tahu'. This is understandable, though I personally favour the latter.
Ngāti Rongomaiwahine is listed as a hapu of Ngāti Kahungunu ('Rongomaiwahine' isn't listed anywhere, even as an 'unpreferred term' for something else). I always considered Ngāti Rongomaiwahine as an iwi with a close association to Ngāti Kahungunu; Te Ara seems to think so too. Any thoughts on this?
Ngāti Toa is so-listed. 'Ngāti Toa Rangatira' is listed as a variant (cf. 'Ngāti Toarangatira' in Te Ara, but this reflects another problem entirely). It seems safer to stick with Ngāti Toa, nē?

One other thing: New Zealand government and Statistics New Zealand websites use the shorter versions of iwi names. Individual iwi websites vary in their use of longer or shorter names. I was personally hoping to use one site or another as the basis for a naming convention here, but I'm not sure which one to use (personally, I like Te Ara's). Any suggestions? Cheers. – Liveste 06:52, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

First, re DEFAULTSORT, my (the?) standard practice is to use standard characters only, ie never use macrons or special characters in defaultsort codes at all. This is because Wikimedia has a 'feature' = 'bug' of sorting macrons last. So Yes on that - ie for Ngāti Tū the defaultsort would always be Ngati Tu. Re Ngāti Rongomaiwahine, I agree with you but I'm not expert on that area. Re Te Ara's list vs Iwi-hapū list vs Government vs iwi websites. Well the Govt and stats websites seem haphazard and inconsistent, so probably not much use. To me the value of a 'standard' is that it takes the pressure off you to decide everything on a case-by-case basis. You just go with what the standard has, done, simple, over. And you can always note the alternatives in the article somehow. Seems to me you are leaning to having Te Ara as the main standard - sounds like a very reasonable choice. The iwi-hapū list could be a backup where Te Ara doesn't mention the particular iwi or hapū. How does that sound? I guess with Ngāti Toa etc and Kāi/Ngāi Tahu etc you chose one according to the standard you decide on, and then note the other and have it as a redirect too. But I don't think it's necessary to mention every possible variation in the article. Another consideration is an understanding and a familiarity with the conventions and principles of Te Taura Whiri, which are downloadable from their site Kahuroa 10:51, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Wikimania

I am developing a bid for Wikimania 2008 to be held in Auckland in 2008. You can see my progress at meta:Wikimania 2008/Auckland on meta. I'm planning it for SkyCity Convention Center, because of the convenience and the fact I already know a lot about it.

Any comments/suggestions? (Feel free to revise bits, auckland is not my home city) Matt/TheFearow (Talk) (Contribs) (Bot) 01:33, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

This is certainly worth discussing at the upcoming meetup. I'm not sure how much work may be required by local Wikipedians; my gut level feeling is that we are not yet sufficiently organised to hold such a meeting.-gadfium 08:29, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Similar feeling. Do we have anyone who's ever attended one of these? Ingolfson 09:37, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

I was planning to attend wikimania this year - I just didn't have 20K lying around for holidays. Also, i'm going to be spending an hour on the morning of the meetup at SkyCity, i'm going to ask some questions. Lastly, I have some experiences setting up events, so I can help organise a bit - i've also attended quite a few there. I'll definately put this up for discussion at the meetup. Matt/TheFearow (Talk) (Contribs) (Bot) 09:49, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Taniwharau DESTROYED!!!

I have made this into a redirect to Taniwha, because there was no real content, not even enough for a disambig. I am unable to follow the logic of the reasons given on its talk page for why it should exist, but will in the meantime leave it to wiser heads to unravel. Kahuroa 21:59, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

There is simply massive content available, so yeah wiser heads are required, but they weren't interested for a year or whatever so why would they suddenly be interested now??? the real question is why pretend the material doesnt exist??? signed by leaving my mark; x....

The discussion Page is HERE: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Taniwharau Discussion isn"t THAT where the discussion is supposed to take place? x —Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.154.231.225 (talk) 13:05, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

This looks like valid content to me:

Taniwharau Logo of the Hamilton Technical College, 1920-1968 Enlarge Logo of the Hamilton Technical College, 1920-1968

Taniwharau is the motto underneath the logo of Hamilton's Fraser High School, formerly Hamilton Technical College; the logo depicts a two-headed water monster or taniwha. Hamilton Technical College existed from 1920 to 1970, when the college changed its name to Hamilton's Fraser High School (The Māori name of the school is Te Kura Tuarua o Taniwharau), and moved to the suburb of Forest Lake. Taniwharau is a non-standard conjoined spelling of the Māori phrase taniwha rau, meaning a hundred taniwha or chiefs. As explained in the article Taniwha, this phrase derives from a Māori proverb praising the Waikato district as having many chiefs, and its use in the school motto refers to many leaders said to have been produced by the school. Te Pouihi

Guide to Te Pouihi - First level of carving

The Pouihi was carved by Inia Te Wiata from one giant 600 year totara tree felled in the New Zealand native bush and shipped to England. It was carried in three lengths, which on arrival were cut into six logs each more than nine feet long. The base was nearly four feet in diameter and each log, full of sap, weighed about two tons. Five of the logs were used for the main carving while the sixth was converted into vertically laminated slabs for the canoe prows.

Inia Te Wiata, internationally acclaimed bass baritone in the world of opera, started carving in 1964 in the basement area of New Zealand House. He was only able to work during the periods between singing engagements and overseas tours.

The heroic figure of Kupe faces visitors to New Zealand House in the traditional stance of welcome. He wears a rapaki (skirt/kilt) and holds a mere pounamu (greenstone weapon) in his right hand with the fingers of his left hand around the blade, a symbol of his peaceful intentions. He has a moki Ariki (a chief’s facial tattoo) while his thighs have the puhoro pattern tattoo. He represents Tangata Whenua, host of the land – in this case welcoming visitors to New Zealand House.

Tangaroa and Hinetuatai stand on Kupe’s right. They are carved in the elaborate style of Ngati Porou, the great master carvers of the East Coast. Sky Father and Earth Mother, Rangi and Papa, were the parents of Tangaroa, God of the Ocean, who married Hinetuatai, Maid of the Surf. Between them they fashioned all mortals out of the earth.

To his left is the plain but beautifully carved Taniwharau which represents the Waikato River Maori.

Other uses

   * Taniwharau Rugby league
   * Taniwharau Maori Culture Group
   * Puhi Taniwharau (Northland Basketball team)
   * Taniwharau Street (Huntly 'Best established garden' prize winner)

Categorisation policy

Hi. I have a question that I couldn't seem to find an answer too in the FAQ and Category pages. Should all NZ people articles include the "New Zealand people" category? I notice that some do and a lot don't. I kind of assumed at first that people listed in subcategories, for example 'New Zealand TV presenters' would automagically get listed in 'New Zealand people' because NZTp is a subcategory of NZp, but that obviously isn't the case.

So should we be adding NZp to all NZ people articles we stumble across? How is this supposed to work.

Apologies in advance if the answer to this appears somewhere and I haven't seen it. -- BigBadaboom0 11:26, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

No, articles should be categorised at the most specific level, ie as Category:New Zealand novelists not as Category:New Zealand people. Otherwise the New Zealand people category would very quickly grow out of control, and it would be difficult to find its subcategories. See Wikipedia:Categorization and subcategories.

I would prefer to see almost no names directly in the New Zealand people category directly, but my view is not the only one, and some people are hard to assign to a subcategory. I have cleaned out some of the names from the higher level category from time to time, but usually I have higher priority things to do on Wikipedia.-gadfium 19:21, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

In the media

Who has read this? I believe it was front-page of The Press! - Shudde ^talk 22:51, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Seems to be a worldwide thing - this was one of the BBC news website's top three stories a couple of days ago. Seems like some new software has made it far easier to see who's fiddling with articles. Grutness...wha? 00:20, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

The Wikipedia Scanner checks annoymous edits from certain IP ranges used by companies. It seems quite popular. Matt/TheFearow (Talk) (Contribs) (Bot) 01:12, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Wonder if it works with churches too. Check out the recent (10 days) POV edits to Eliseo Soriano from many first-time or newish anons. While you're there, have a look at his list of "Awards and Recognitions". He'll have one from his cat soon. Oh, I forgot, I'm not supposed to be sarcastic. Moriori 01:55, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

And this is currently getting prominence on the Herald web site. I haven't looked at a physical copy of the paper yet. I've added this to WP:PRESS.

Cheng, Derek (2006-08-25). "Online jokesters have a go at PM". New Zealand Herald.

"A photo of Helen Clark on the online encyclopaedia Wikipedia has been "protected" to prevent people editing her listing, and Ministry of Justice staff have been detected using Government computers to alter other entries."
The article goes on to talk about Wikiscanner, vandalism to the Helen Clark article, and unrelated vandalism from Justice Ministry computers.

Here's the print edition: [1].-gadfium 19:03, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

New user to keep an eye on

Special:Contributions/NZVince has created a couple of low-quality articles and made POV changes to Rob Moodie - which I removed, but that article needs some love to tidy its previous content too. dramatic 06:23, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Renamed

Just a quick note, I have been renamed from Brian New Zealand, to Brian cheers Brian | (Talk) 07:05, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

M2 magazine article on Samantha Fox

Does anyone have a copy of the July 2007 issue of M2 magazine ( website ) with David Beckham on the cover and a photoshoot of Jessica Alba? If so can you have a quick look at the article on Samantha Fox and compare it to the wikipedia article? I read the magazine last night in a shop and the wikipedia article seems to have similar phrases from my memory. The M2 article was written in the 1st person so probably not copied from the Wikipedia article. - SimonLyall 08:23, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject New Zealand - Content task force

Following on from the meetup I have created a Content task force for people who are interested in approaching content holders about releasing their material so it can be used by Wikipedia and related projects. Please sign up if you are interested and/or make suggestions as to material and groups we could target. - SimonLyall —Preceding signed but undated comment was added at 10:41, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Truewater

Something needs to be done with this page - nominate for speedy deletion, or research and rewrite with external sources? (I don't have time, sorry) dramatic 21:19, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't think they're notable. If one or both of them gets elected then maybe, but probably not even then. --Helenalex 21:46, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Tourism in New Zealand

For a country in which tourism play such a huge role, economically, this pseudo-article sure is pitiful. Anyone interested in helping me fix it up from the three unreferenced lines it has now is very welcome. Ingolfson 17:33, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

I've made a few edits which has approximately doubled the size of the article. If a few other people also double the size, we'll have a decent article in no time.-gadfium 22:01, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

election template

Could someone design a decent infobox for the NZ election pages? The ones currently on the recent election pages are designed for American elections and don't work so well for ours. I would do it myself, but I have absolutely no clue how to go about writing infoboxes... it seems to involve a lot of coding and the instructions assume prior knowledge of that.

Anyway, there should ideally be seperate infoboxes for MMP and FPP elections. The MMP one should show how much of the party vote each party got plus how many electorates they won, and how the parties worked together afterwards (ie in government coalition, providing confidence and supply to government, or in opposition), whether the government changed, name of government, and what term that put them in. The FPP should show how many electorates each party won, and possibly what percentage of the total vote, whether the government changed, name of government, what term that put them in, and, in some years, coalition partners. I don't think there needs to be massive amounts of information, basically just who won, how much by, and what combination of parties formed the government.

There is also some work to be done in making each page consistent - at the moment I am trying to put summaries on the pages that don't have them, but ideally someone should come up with some kind of ideal page which the rest can be made to conform to. --Helenalex 22:37, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Can you find a good example of a template used on another country's election pages that we could adapt to suit our MMP elections? Anything on German federal election, 2005 for instance? What about those of other countries that use MMP-like systems? Kahuroa 07:21, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

As far as I know the only other country which has a similar electoral system is Germany, and they don't seem to have infoboxes of the type we're after. I think the best way is for someone who knows how to do this stuff to just experiment. --Helenalex 21:55, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

You're probably best to ask at Wikipedia:Requested templates. Producing a mockup of what you would like might be useful.-gadfium 04:07, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Suggestions where to put image?

OK, I know. Have uploaded a photo -- Image:Kauri.gum.insect.jpg‎ -- I took yesterday of an insect trapped in a lump of kauri gum. Can't quite figure which article to put it on, so suggestions would be welcome. I think it is a better illustration that some that already exist (but I would say that, wouldn't I?) Moriori 03:20, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Kauri gum redirects to Agathis australis, which already has a photo of a piece of gum, but I think your photo could certainly be added. Amber would be the other possibility; there are photos of insects trapped in resin there, but most are not nearly as clear as your one. There are some to rival yours at commons:Category:Amber.-gadfium 07:52, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

or start a Kauri gum article?? Interesting material, Northland social history of the gumfields of the 19th century, dalmations, Māori, their resulting intermarriages, leading to wine-making dynasties... Kahuroa 05:45, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Keitematewahineau

Is there a small town called Keitematewahineau in Northland? There are no Google hits for it, nor is it in my Heinemann's New Zealand Atlas. The article claims that Tuku Morgan comes from there; the same editor added this to the Morgan article. Is this a hoax? A misspelling?-gadfium 08:03, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Nope. It means I am in love with a woman, lit, I am dying of (love for) a woman. And Tuku Morgan is Waikato. Doesn't come up here, either. Kahuroa 09:31, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

No sign of it, in the census it would be here . I've skimmed a few online maps and no sign either. Morgan is also Tainui which would make it more likely he was born more in the Waikato area rather than Northland - SimonLyall 09:35, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

I have removed the town from Tuku Morgan page, and asked the editor for clarification. If he doesn't answer pretty soon I will nuke the town's own page too. Moriori 09:38, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Tuku was adopted by his grandparents who lived in Huntly, so it might be possible he was born outside of Waikato, but nonetheless its pretty clear Keitematewahineau doesn't exist. Kahuroa 09:49, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Is the name in the LINZ 55,000 placenames database? here; http://www.linz.govt.nz/core/placenames/searchplacenames/index.html NZ Placenames ~~

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.154.231.225 (talk) 13:15, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

I've deleted the article as a hoax.-gadfium 03:40, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

All Blacks versus France at rugby union

This article is now a Good Article and I've put it up for peer review. I was wondering if any New Zealand editors would be able to have a look at it and place some feedback at the peer review page here. I'm hoping I can get it to Featured Article standard in the next month or so. Thanks. - Shudde ^talk 03:13, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

The article has had a few alterations. Is it still on for a featured Article? L-Bit 07:33, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm going to fix a few things as per suggestions and will hopefully nominate in the next week. - Shudde ^talk 22:36, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

New Zealand local elections, 2007

New Zealand local elections, 2007 The elections underway, lets have a collaborated effort on the election article Brian | (Talk) 11:43, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Comment from anyone?

I uploaded a couple of images of a medal struck 25 years ago regarding kiwi aviator Richard Pearse. -- Image:Richard Pearse medal 1.jpg‎ and Image:Richard Pearse medal 2.JPG‎ . Any comments? Moriori 03:48, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Any information on whether these were just a comemrcial commemorative issue or awards? dramatic 22:45, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

See Image:Richard-Pearse-certificate.jpg Moriori 01:41, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Wouldn't these be copyright? The medals are not old enough for the design to be public domain. You could make a fair use argument.-gadfium 01:31, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Don't think they breach copyright G. The photo is my own work. If I was trying to reproduce the medals for sale, or very similar medals with slightly different name, then I would be breaching design rights. No? Moriori 01:41, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Mid-Cantabrians with cameras?

Probably too late for the current anticyclone, but as summer approaches it worth pointing out now that the small article on the Nor'west arch could do with a photo from a Wikipedian living on the Canty Plains somewhere... Grutness...wha? 23:18, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Port of Tauranga

Could someone maybe rifle through their collections and see if they have any photos of the port of Tauranga for Port of Tauranga? Would be great if someone could upload one. Or five! Ingolfson 11:01, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

And a decent one of Mount Maunganui while they're at it. Kahuroa 18:32, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

I know there is a (liitle used) photo wanted category, but perhaps we need to add a list to Wikipedia:WikiProject New Zealand of articles that could do with photos... Grutness...wha? 23:07, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Such requests should indeed be added to WikiProject New Zealand, but it does no harm to make the occasional request here. I've just checked my photo album for 1993, the last time I climbed the Mount, but I have no photos of it there.-gadfium 02:06, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

I've added two pics from Flickr, but compared to the quality I'd like to have on the article, both are semi-unsuitable. So the request still stands.Ingolfson 10:15, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

I'll be up there some time next week, and will make a point to take my shiny new camera along with me. And for that matter, I guess I should start snapping up more places. -Pumpmeup 09:49, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Were you able to take any? Ingolfson 10:44, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Greytown

I have to wonder about the accuracy of the final paragraph in Greytown, New Zealand. It was added by an anon in July last year along with much other information in a very chatty style. I think it probably is a good faith edit. I can find no google hits for the term "Te Hepenui" other than in Wikipedia mirrors.-gadfium 02:28, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Actually, it seems to be legitimate, but the spelling is wrong — it should be Hupenui, not Hepenui. You should be able to find a few hits with that — this one, from the Wairarapa Times-Age, specifically discusses the name. -- Vardion 03:30, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, I've fixed it and cited it. Impressive that the paper's archives are online for that far back.-gadfium 04:26, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Wayne Barnes

Would any Kiwi admin's be able to expand this article a little? Quite a lot more information is available now then yesterday but the page has been protected due to vandalism (and death threats!). For example the Paddy O'Brien link on the page should not be to a Gaelic Footballer. - Shudde ^talk 20:54, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

You should use {{editprotected}} on the talk page.-gadfium 04:00, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

A couple of resources:

I just came across http://www.nzetc.org/tm/scholarly/tei-corpus-misc.html - it looks invaluable for referencing NZ history articles. Also http://www.firstfourships.co.nz/index.php for information on colonial Canterbury. dramatic 00:47, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

I've used it at times. Good stuff there, but sometimes a little chaotic in what is in there and what isn't (like the early internet ;-). BTW, can somebody recommend any New Zealand newspapers that allow online research for older dates? The Herald seems to provide only the 2000s... Ingolfson 15:42, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Past Papers has several scanned pre 1915 ones online. - SimonLyall 00:37, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Christopher Wingate

This looks like an autobiography and the user is stamping the same text in a few places throughout the Wiki. I've reverted the changes they made to Matakana Island as unsourced and of subject PoV, but there's more to be done. Malathos 18:12, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

I've reverted all those not already removed, except the main article of Christopher Wingate, and the edits to Scott Dixon, which are not dealing with the legal dispute which is at the centre of the other posts, and seems a reasonable addition. The Wingate article I've put up for AfD.-gadfium 19:52, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

The Wingate article has now been deleted. Can someone with a legal background comment on whether Arklow vs. MacLean, by the same author, is a significant case which is appropriate for an article? The author has provided references for the article, but not really established the case's notability. If it is an appropriate subject, I'm happy to wikify the article, if not, it should go to AfD. -gadfium 05:28, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

If there is a reference which says it is significant - and I'd imagine it has been discussed in a NZ legal magazine somewhere - I would suggest deleting it and rewriting from scratch to eliminate the Conflict of Interest from having Mr Wingate editing the article. dramatic 08:18, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Arklow vs. MacLean has now been nominated for AfD (not by me, although I was considering doing so).-gadfium 01:23, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Issue with searching the Herald database

Hi all (who are interested in such arcane things) - I have recently tried to link a Herald article listed only with name and author to the Herald database, so its directly linked as well. The article was listed as:

"Elizabeth Binning, Go-ahead for new Mt Eden jail, The New Zealand Herald, Friday 15 June, 2007".

Various approaches found nothing. There was no article in the prisons tag for that day that fit (there was another one about the same theme, but it did not contain the info the editor had referenced with it), and for the author's name tag, there was no article for that day at all. I was about to suspect incorrect citing, when I found this:

Google search result

So there was an article in the Herald database under that name at some time (and likely with the information that it is to reference). But since the google engine only gives me another article as it had archived it at that time, with one of those non-permanent links off the page which only existed at that time, I can't find it anymore. Any ideas? Ingolfson 07:07, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

I think the Herald updated the story, and changed the headline, after the Google index of the site. The Google cache shows the story on the right side of the page, but when clicked it leads to [2]. In my experience, links to Herald articles (since a change to their site policy many months ago) are permanent; that is, the link will still work, although the story might be updated. The original ref may have been using the print edition of the Herald, which is valid although not as convenient.-gadfium 08:29, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

The editor used the ref to cite a 1960s riot at the prisons. That is missing from the other article, so I am a bit confused. I guess I should ask him... Ingolfson 09:10, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree that asking the editor is sensible, and I see you have done so. The article I linked to has a "view photos" link which may have the information referred to - I can't display them since the Herald doesn't recognise that I have Flash player installed (probably because I also have flash blocker, or perhaps because I'm using Firefox on Linux). For the relevant quote from the article, see St Peter's College, Auckland#The prison riot.-gadfium 18:28, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

The photos do have a picture from the 1965 riot, but don't contain the text that the print article had. It appears that the online version of the Herald doesn't always have the full text. The digital replica of the paper only goes back to late July, so this will have to remain an offline reference.-gadfium 02:55, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

I have an extract from the hard copy of the New Zealand Herald, Friday , June 15, 2007, Section A, page 2, "Go-ahead for new Mt eden jail, by Elizabeth Binning (police reporter). Sorry, I don't know about internet versions. But I notice now that the full reference was removed from the St Peter's College, Auckland article as part of the whirlwind of (perhaps justified) vandalism which slashed the artice then, I have will now replace the full reference in that article. But hoefully the above gives enough information to find the articel on the net. Thanks, Rick570 23.28, 21 october 2007(UTC)

Māori voting rights article, revisited

With the macron, or without? See the discussion and edit history for background. My own preference would be with, for uniformity and because that is how it's spelt in the Māori language, but disagreement does exist, so I thought a wider discussion should be held. Biruitorul 23:55, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

List of New Zealand birds

I am in the initial stages of undertaking a major overhaul of the List of New Zealand birds, based on the way I laid out the List of birds of Fiji. You can see my early work here. Because New Zealand, like Fiji, is composed of a number of important island groups and good sources exist for all the islands, I feel a table form is the best way to lay out teh various familes. I anticipate it will take a while, as I am swamped with my PhD and Nanowrimo is coming up too. But, before I get too far along I thought I'd seek some opinions about names (I'll be crossposting this on WP:BIRD to get their opinions too. I plan to use the official New Zealand recognized bird names (NZRBN) as suggested by the NZ Ornithological society, which will mean Orange-crowned Parakeet instead of Malhere's Parakeet, Rock Wren instead of South Island Wren, etc etc etc (note I haven't gotten round to standardising my work so far, I still use albatross instead of mollymawk in some instances for example. But I'd be interested in thoughts about whether or not to continue to include Māori in the tables. Thus for the honeyeaters...

Meliphagidae
Species	Kermadecs	North I	South I	Chathams	Auckland
Stitchbird Notiomystis cincta		B	X
Bellbird Anthoris melanura		B	B		B
Chatham Island Bellbird Anthornis melanocephala				X
Tui Prosthemadera novaeseelandiae	B	B	B	B	B

...would it be preferable to include the Māori name in every instance where there is one (specific to a species), in situations where the two are interchangable and commonly used (Kereru for example) or not at all? In the above example, the Māori name for one species is also the English name (Tui), Hihi as a synonym for Stitchbird is sort of established but I seldom come across the one for the Bellbird, and I'd need to look up whether the Chatham Bellbird even had a known Māori name. I'd be inclined to go for the second option, seeing as how this is an English language Wikipedia; we don't include local names in other languages for other bird lists, but for some species (principally the Kereru but also a few others) both are used in English. It would aslo save space and, (I must point out since I'm doing the legwork), effort, not to mention you need to distinguish between Māori initalics and binomials in italics)

Meliphagidae
Species	Kermadecs	North I	South I	Chathams	Auckland
Stitchbird Hihi Notiomystis cincta		B	X
Bellbird Korimako Anthoris melanura		B	B		B
Chatham Island Bellbird Anthornis melanocephala				X
Tui Prosthemadera novaeseelandiae	B	B	B	B	B

So what do you all think? Sabine's Sunbird talk 05:15, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

I know very little about birds (which could be useful in this case), but as a reader I'd prefer the second, I think. Whilst the former option might give the appearance of adding extra information, it isn't always useful information. The second option is in fact more informative: I personally would like to learn the names of these birds, and the Māori names in particular, but only if they're actually going to be used, and you - as the bird expert - have taken care of that for the poor ignorant end user, me. kabl00ey 13:30, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

All Blacks versus France at rugby union

Hi all. This has undergone a copy-edit, and except for a little bit of info needing to be added is nearly ready for FAC. However before I do that I really need someone to copy-edit the article. Was wondering if somebody here would please be able to give it a copy-edit? Would really appreciate this. - Shudde ^talk 05:43, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

New Zealand dream

I am strongly tempted to nominate this article for AFD, because if the author can't come up with references for the main statements, then the entire article is essentially Original Research, no matter how well supported by statistics. The author has already removed an OR template once - could others please keep an eye out or give guidance. dramatic —Preceding comment was added at 08:37, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Nominated for AfD.-gadfium 18:27, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Category:Hills of New Zealand

Hi. A user recently created the above cat. While I normally applaud a better sorting - I create cats all the time myself), I am somewhat dubious if this actually helps. So One Tree Hill is now in "Hills", while for example, Mount Eden, which is similar geologically, and comparative in importance and size, is still in "Mountains". How do people feel we should handle this? Ingolfson 20:09, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

To clarify, I am somewhat dubious about whether MOUNT Eden would make sense in "Hills". Also, we get into discussions about where a Hill stops being a Hill and vice versa for Mountains. Ingolfson 20:10, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

I created this category - tidying up the category "Hills" which had a random few individual hills in it as well as the various subcategories for "Hills of x (country)", by creating subcategories into which to put those unassigned hills. The UK, I thought uniquely, has "Mountains and hills of the United Kingdom" - subcategories of which include "Mountains and hills of x" or "Hills of x" for different counties, as appropriate (with an intermediate category "Mountains and hills of [constituent country of the UK]"). (I've just spotted that several other countries have "Mountains and hills of..." as a subcategory of "Mountains of Europe", but those categories aren't listed under "Hills"!) As for the definition of a mountain... Good luck in trying to come to a sensible conclusion! PamD 20:34, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

I've now tidied up further, so that any "Mountains and hills of x (country)" is now a subcategory of "Hills" as well as of "Mountains of y (continent)". PamD 20:47, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Apologies: I've just re-checked and realised that One Tree Hill was previously categorised as Category:Mountains of New Zealand, rather than as Category:Hills as most of the ones I was tidying up were. I think I must have decided to recategorise it because it appears in List of hills, not a good rationale. I've recategorised it back, and will propose for deletion the now-empty Category:Hills of New Zealand. Sorry for the confusion caused by over-enthusiastic tidying up. PamD 08:33, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Have now worked out what needs to be done - will place template {{Db-catempty}} on the cat when it's been empty for 4 days. PamD 08:40, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Done. PamD (talk) 17:43, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Mass deletion

Just notifying people here of the mass deletion of ~~nearly all~~ many images in Category:New Zealand Crown Copyright images for lacking fair-use rationales. {{NZCrownCopyright}} was found a while back to be incorrectly a free license. It is in fact a non-free license, even for the New Zealand Agencies that allow reproduction, because they do not allow modification. See Wikipedia:Non-free content for the policy. Some things to note:

In many cases no rationales will be able to be found, due to the impossibility of proving the irreplaceableness, and impossibility to create a free equivalent.
In some cases a rationale can be created but the images will only be allowed to remain in the article namespace. (no templates, portals, user pages etc.)

Sorry for the inconvenience I know this sucks. Jackaranga 09:59, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Turned out not to be so bad, only nominated around 50 in the end. Many more still fail other fair-use criteria though. Jackaranga 10:36, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

A lot of these images have fair use rationales, and come from the "permissive" New Zealand Crown Copyright sites, which say anyone can use these images for any purpose. Because Wikipedia doesn't recognise such a licence, these have to be treated as fair use. Unfortunately, to defend these images is a long and involved process, and I am no longer willing to take the time to do so. Wikipedia becomes a poorer encyclopedia as the result of the well-meaning work of people such as this.-gadfium 18:38, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

My words. On the other hand, I am always amazed that nobody ever yet heard of a "Wikipedia sued for 3.5 gazillion dollars of damages for incorrect use of three badly lighted photos!!!". Really amazes me - and I guess the increasing clampdown on dubious/tenous fair use is part of a campaign that such headlines don't happen. Showing an agressive attitude in combatting 'unfair' use is a valuable legal defense when Wikipedia is sued. Ingolfson 07:37, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Primary and Intermediate Schools

It seems to be widely considered that schools beneath the secondary level are not notable enough for Wikipedia. When they are put up for AFD, there has to be something quite special about the school for it to survive. This raises two questions:

Why do we have an infobox template for NZ Primary schools?
Should we be nominating all NZ primary/intermediate school articles for deletion as they are created? Many seem to be created by relatively inexperienced contributors, and these are often the most unaccepting of notability arguments.

dramatic (talk) 01:10, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Do we have a widely used infobox specifically for primary schools? I think someone tried to introduce one, but I don't think it's in common use. Most schools use {{Infobox NZ school}}.

I don't nominate primary or intermediate school articles for deletion, but I don't defend them either unless the article makes it clear they are something out of the ordinary. To reduce the number of such articles created, should we unlink such schools (where no articles exist) from the series of List of schools in New Zealand articles. My original proposal in creating these articles was that only secondary schools be linked, but the only feedback suggested all schools be linked.-gadfium 05:08, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

An alternative proposal is to create a redirect for all primary schools to the local town or suburb article, which would then have a paragraph on local schools with the basic TKI information. I'm prepared to do this if it's considered worthwhile.-gadfium 05:13, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Sounds like a good idea. --Helenalex (talk) 23:16, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. Would it be wrong to insert the school infobox in an article about the suburb it is in? (lower down the page of course). dramatic (talk) 20:20, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

I can see the page getting a bit crowded, particularly if there are several schools or the page is not very big. Perhaps a table might work better? --Helenalex (talk) 22:16, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

My intention was to produce some text along the lines of:

==Schools==

Ahipara School is a coeducational full primary school with a decile rating of 3 and a roll of 225.^[1]

==References==

==External links==

Ahipara School website

which I will do by running a script over the "List of schools in xxx, New Zealand" pages (or perhaps directly from the tki site, since I already have the python program I used to parse that into the tables for the lists), and then to add the paragraph to a "==Schools==" section of the nearest town.

In this case, I would need to create an article, Ahipara, but the town article would be more useful to build upon than a primary school article would be. For Ahipara, I'd write a line about where the town is, include a little information from and a link to Te Ara, and give a population from the 2001 census (or 2006 census if I can find it - for some reason it's much easier to find 2001 data still).

I think a school infobox would be overkill.-gadfium 22:56, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

I have started the process, and my report after finishing all schools in the Far North District is at Talk:List of schools in New Zealand#Further improvements.-gadfium 00:30, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

If you just need 2006 census population totals for area units (which generally correspond to suburbs or small towns), look in the regional spreadsheets linked on this page. -- Avenue (talk) 15:20, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, I had found that since my earlier post.-gadfium 21:53, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Tapu Te Ranga Marae

Interesting article on a house. I'm guessing a notible enough but the whole structure of the article is a bit too much like a travel brochure. Can people have a quick look? - SimonLyall (talk) 05:32, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

There are several concerning aspects of this article:

The article has been written in a largely subjective style, containing several quotes from either permanent or former residents of this marae (ref. Neutral point of view).
There are several possible violations of the Wikipedia notability guidelines, including independence of subject, objectivity, no original research.
It does, generally, seem to be a poorly written article, with little in the way of factual information on the actual subject and most of the focus being on its residents, in particular the principal resident.

I'd be reluctant to nominate it for deletion yet, but it does seem to be worthy of some relevant tags to encourage a clean-up. -- Matthew25187 (talk) 11:21, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

A lot of the article seems to be plagiarised from http://www.taputeranga.maori.nz/. Based on a google search, the marae doesn't seem notable apart from the heritage site listing, and I'm not sure how significant that is - I'm pretty sure there's a lot of heritage sites out there. --Helenalex (talk) 23:29, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

its simply the biggest recycled timber building in the southern hemisphere but what does that matter in this space. Easier to dribble on about how bad it is when the same effort applied to building a decent article would likely fix it. Have a look in the literary mirror guys, not a pretty sight.. how about taking some pride in your heritage adjusting it to your requirements as opposed to the sanitary process that is such a time waster.. incessantly talking about talking....mmm that will grow the editing base real fast.. oh thats right, you want to builld it all yourselves, so just continue to insult the tryers out here and see how fast the thing grows..or is it fast enough already... you guys are supposed to be educated, dont you know that Marae is the first to have a whare decorated by a woman artist, Robyn Kahukiwa, a national treasure, a year and a halfs work paid for by creative new zealand.. do your homework... or i spose its simply easier to cut it to shreds and have yet another shell of an article... whatever. I'm currently re-building the official site in a space that none of you will ever be able to mess with. And you are supposed to be the collaborative ones, yeah right. moza (talk) 13:25, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Ok, so you have a reference for all the extra information you gave there? A neutral reference - that is not published by the Marae or anyone involved with it?dramatic (talk) 17:28, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Bruce Stewart and the Marae featured on Maori television last night. Paul Moss (talk) 12:43, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Kiamo_Te_Aroha

Is this the right place for this?? Not sure, but in any case, Kiwi opinions on Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kiamo Te Aroha would be welcome. --Slp1 (talk) 20:16, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

The correct place is Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/New Zealand. I've added it there.-gadfium 20:41, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Naming conventions

New Zealand's somewhat unusual placename naming conventions are unde fire again at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (New Zealand). I've defended them, though I'm beginning to wonder whether it would be less fuss to change them all...(crossposted to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject New Zealand) Grutness...wha? 23:12, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Ministers

It seems that the state of articles on our ministers are a bit of a mess. Most are unreferenced with unsourced phrases like "there are strong rumours", etc floating around the place. Also there does not seem to be a standard infobox for them. For example Steve Maharey has an {{Infobox Officeholder}} infobox, which I partially filled up, yet another format is the one seen in Ruth Dyson or Trevor Mallard (with election history rather than posts). I'm not sure which one is better actually, all our ministers seem to hold many posts at once so completing an infobox with all the term_start/term_end/predecessor/successor for each post would get quite bloated, not to mention tedious to acquire information for.--Sir Anon (talk) 21:14, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

I think all MPs have the election history one, or at least they should do. The Ministerial offices thing is a different matter, and Ministers should really have both.

I agree that Ministers of the Crown should have both their standard MP election history and their held offices. kabl00ey (talk) 07:37, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

While we're on the topic, a number of important Ministerial Offices don't have pages: Minister of Education (New Zealand) (this redirects to Ministry of Education), Minister of Social Welfare (New Zealand), Minister of Police (New Zealand) (redirects to NZ Police) etc. Minister of Railways (New Zealand) does, which is kind of funny - I think it was part of a railway history project. Anyway, does anyone know a list of Ministers of these things? --Helenalex (talk) 03:38, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

I've just done Education, since I though that one was rather important. -- Vardion (talk) 22:58, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

funny? Typical! Of all the fields of human knowledge, railways possibly has the most complete coverage on wikipedia. Dozens of articles on small towns in NZ have been created merely as vehicles for a section on the minutae of railway history. There's something about trains which affects the mind slightly ;-) dramatic (talk) 07:51, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Very true (coming from a long line of railway buffs, I know exactly what you mean), but I don't think it's quite the most complete field on Wikipedia. If any of those small towns was even mentioned vaguely in passing in a Pokemon videogame it would have a A-class-length article, 90% of which would be about its role in the game! Grutness...wha? 08:41, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm rather pleased that I just checked what links to The New Zealand Story, and only one mainstream New Zealand article considers this a major event in its history.-gadfium 08:51, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

I just realised that some time past I removed the link to the game from Waitomo Caves. Does that make me a good guy or a vandal??? Ingolfson (talk) 11:19, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

I've just removed the link (from Aoraki/Mount_Cook) that I referred to above.-gadfium 18:59, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

A particularly handy - and recent - list can be found in the following Word document. kabl00ey (talk) 07:37, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

For lists of historic office-holders, I have yet to find anything substantial online — or any complete lists offline, for that matter. However, you can put it together from lists of cabinets found in New Zealand Parliamentary Record (although the latest edition I've found doesn't go beyond the 1980s). I've done a few, but it can be a bit time-consuming, though, scanning the whole thing looking for the relevant entries, especially if the office changed names sometimes. Anyway, I don't think there are any convenient lists to copy for historical ministers, unfortunately. -- Vardion (talk) 20:52, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

I have a complete list of ministers from 1935 - 1981. It is published in Lambert & Palenski: The New Zealand Almanac, 1982. ISBN 0908570554 - seems to have been dropped from later editions (I also have the 1986 4th edition). I shall look at the task once I have completed both my current tasks (tidying the events/see also links for 1932...2007 in New Zealand and adding population figures to those articles (since 1972 and before 1926). If anyone is mad-keen to get it done sooner, contact me and I will copy those pages for you. dramatic (talk) 23:27, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Te karanga

Initially (before I fixed such atrocities as "Maorian") I was going to niminate this article for speedy deletion as patent nonsense (even I know that the Karanga is not limited to weddings) - an example of how a single source can be misconstrued by an editor with no direct knowledge of a topic. But then I thought that we probably should have an article about Karanga - however, I'm not the person to write it. Note that Karanga, which is probably the better name for the article, is currently a redirect to an article on an african language. dramatic (talk) 08:55, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

What a shocker. I'm not the one to write it (plus I don't know how to do a disambiguation page for the African language), but I can see how it should fit alongside hongi and wero as part of a more general article on powhiri - perhaps that page needs beefing up (with some more authoritative source material than a tourism brochure) including a detailed section on karanga as part of the powhiri. --Tirana (talk) 00:41, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Oh, it was too annoying to let it survive in that form. Hopefully what I've cribbed from a couple of googled websites is sufficient until someone who knows what they're talking about comes along. And then someone who can work out how to rename it and do the disambiguation thing can fix that up. --Tirana (talk) 01:15, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Many thanks Tirana. I've tweaked the lead to make it clearer for people with zero knowledge of Māoritanga and set up the disambiguation page, moving the article to Karanga (Māori culture) in the process. dramatic (talk) 03:57, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Separate articles on the eight national highways

Hi all - we've long had an article on SH1, but none on the other seven national highways. It's probably about time we did - I've just made State Highway 8 (New Zealand), which I'd like other editors to have a look at and comment/expand on. BTW, if anyone's willing to make any of the others, I'd be only too keen to make appropriate maps (just leave a note on my talk page). Grutness...wha? 23:54, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Does anyone know of a reference for information like the highest point on each highway? e.g. I know by hearsay that the highest point of SH3 is at Midhurst, New Zealand (rather than Mt Messenger as you might expect), but I need a reference before adding that to an article.dramatic (talk) 17:32, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Huh, that's a great bit of trivia - I never would have guessed that. Still I suppose Midhirst is pretty close to the mountain. Lisiate (talk) 01:42, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

^ "School information". Te Kete Ipurangi.

[1] "School information". Te Kete Ipurangi.

[1]