- Lucas Horton (talk|edit|history|logs|links|archive|watch) (RM)
Closer initially closed the request as "no consensus." The main opposer complained, and the closer then moved the page. I did not see any solid reasoning given by the closer for going ahead and moving the article. Like the closer, I saw the discussion as "no consensus" as well, and would like a review of whether or not the second outcome of the close is valid and the change in the decision followed protocol. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 14:32, 22 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- I also have concerns about the experience level of the closer, but I am aware that the close review should not focus on that. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 14:45, 22 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
From the policy up-page:
Editors desiring to initiate a move review should limit their requests to one or both of the following reasons:
- [Closer] did not follow the spirit and intent of WP:RMCI because [explain rationale here] in closing this requested move.
- [Closer] was unaware of significant additional information not discussed in the RM: [identify information here] and the RM should be reopened and relisted.
Flyer22 Reborn initiates the review with neither! She is disregarding policy here - as she did in the move debate itself - and instead she appears to instead be fishing in the editorial pool for the result that she wants - without doing the necessary and important work of placing a valid argument as per the protocol that a move review is supposed to adhere to. Why is this approach even being entertained? It seems an abuse of the system to me.
We need to be all about policy here - if a good outcome is to be reached - and the closer correctly stated in their decision that "The move was supported by good policy based arguments." This is very true, and that is why it is a great decision. As the review-initiator has failed to put forth rationale as to why the closer did not follow the spirit and intent of WP:RMCI policy, this is an improper review request, and it should be thrown out.Aliveness Cascade (talk) 15:32, 23 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- I disagree, per the comments made by others below. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 16:19, 24 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Hello! I am the nominator of the move. There were three votes (including mine) for the move, and two against. As I was surprised by the initial close decision of "no consensus", and the closer had not initially given any reason for their decision, I raised the matter with the closer on their talk page,as per protocol. Happily they responded. I specifically asked the closer this question: given that WP:RMCI#Three_possible_outcomes, says "no consensus" is indicated when "equally strong arguments and appeals to Wikipedia policy and outside sources were found on both sides", can you state what arguments by the two opposers you found had "equal weight" to all the arguments, evidence, and logic presented in the request (and its defense) that enabled you to arrive at the conclusion of "no consensus"?
The closer, Yashovardhan, responded by changing their decision, on their own initiative, to "MOVE". And they have my appreciation and commendation for that!
I had asked the question for the very reason that I did not believe the initial decision reflected wikipedia policy. It is a question I pose again to those who would overturn the decision to MOVE, and restore a "no-consensus" closure. What argument/s of the two opposers do you find are equally strong to the plentiful, reasoned, and evidence-backed arguments I provided in the nomination, its defense, and the ongoing discussion about the move.
By the way, Flyer22 Reborn (the opposer-in-chief) appears to have initiated this move review before waiting for a response to their own submission to the closer.
@Born2Cycle: @TAnthony:
Aliveness Cascade (talk) 20:05, 22 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Do not overturn for now - To be honest, I don't strongly favor the move. I really thought the character should be surnamed "Roberts" based on real-life sources. I would give the closure a weak endorsement. However, the closer said that those who opposed the move used IMDB. Actually, one of the supporters mentioned IMDB, though the person implicitly could not use IMDB for obvious reasons. None of us voters, support and oppose, used IMDB. "Neutral" arguments were not summarized. However, the whole comment does not imply that the decision should be overturned. In fact, the previous title "Lucas Roberts", which was used from 2012 to 2017, had been disputed, leading to move warrings. Any kind of title change would not help improve the article, which already mentions both of his surnames. Well, I did favor "Roberts", and I still do prefer it. However, I realize that more readers do not mind typing or calling him "Lucas Horton" than "Lucas Roberts". Also, I realize nothing is wrong about using one title as the article title and the other as the redirect. I hope the title change would prevent or reduce more edit warrings. --George Ho (talk) 23:51, 22 May 2017 (UTC); edited. 23:53, 22 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- – I'll take PaleAqua's suggestion: reopen, rewrite rationale, and reclose without relisting. --George Ho (talk) 03:47, 23 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- If I interpret what you say correctly, the old name for you is a personal preference, in other words you have a personal attachment to the old name, and I thank you for sharing this. It is totally understandable for folks who watched the show before 2007 to have an attachment to the name used before 2007. This is a good opportunity point out that we need to use the name that is best for the user, and our personal feelings are irrelevant. Clearly you understand this yourself - I am merely taking the opportunity to underline it for the benefit of this discussion. It is the name that is best for the user which matters - and the name that is best for the user is the current name that the show uses (and has been using for the past ten years) and WP:COMMONNAME, which are both Lucas Horton. The move to Lucas Horton is a benefit to the user and good for the encyclopedia. (Nominator Aliveness Cascade) (talk) 09:20, 24 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I wonder whether most readers are part of democracy, which Wikipedia is not supposed to be. Also, consensus ≠ democracy. --George Ho (talk) 06:59, 25 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, "user" is part of consensus. What constitutes a "user"... well... we'll decide for ourselves. --George Ho (talk) 17:47, 25 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- Huh? A reader! Someone who goes to a page to read it for information! It is inherently confusing to a reader for the show to call the character one thing and the encyclopedia to call it another. What is the reader going to take from that? And is wikipedia a better authority than the show or something? Plus it is inherently confusing for son Will to be at Will Horton and father Lucas to be at Lucas Roberts when Lucas changed their names at the same time, nine-and-a-half years ago to boot! It makes no sense, and is baffling to the reader. If the article is at Lucas Roberts it makes the encyclopedia look out of date! And *that* means folks will always be coming by to move it to Lucas Horton. LOL - that's been proven over and over and over! The page will never be stable at Lucas Roberts! Never! And it is indefensible to put the page back at Lucas Roberts, because Lucas Horton *has* now become WP:COMMONNAME.(Nominator Aliveness Cascade (talk) 22:38, 25 May 2017 (UTC))[reply]
- A demonstrably bad closure? It is demonstrably the right decision to move to Lucas Horton - and right is good! I demonstrated in the opening of the move request that Lucas Horton is WP:COMMONNAME, and the right location of the article. The opposers only demonstrated that they did not understand WP:SET#Notability and the necessity of using "phrase searches" when using google to measure notability of two-word or more names.(Nominator Aliveness Cascade (talk) 10:06, 24 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- You are arguing the merits of the proposal. I am criticising the close. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 22:04, 28 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- Excuse me? I was talking about "whether the close of the discussion was reasonable or unreasonable based on the debate and applicable policy and guidelines", as per move review guidelines above.Aliveness Cascade (talk) 22:41, 28 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- I know. What you say may be true, but it is not the point and I don't want to go there. The discussion was not appropriate for an inexperience NACer. The result was something not looking very good, not endearing of respect, and detrimental to the RM process. Another NACer may well have done something different. The closer also failed to follow the instructions and declare himself a NAC closer. It should be reverted and reclosed, by any admin. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:31, 28 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- Regarding "it is not the point" - This is a free discussion, and many points can be made. That's kind of the point, LOL! What's more it is perfectly appropriate of me to say why I think the key part of the decision is correct, and why I think it should be upheld, and to express an alternative view on the importance of other elements. Aliveness Cascade (talk) 01:02, 29 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- Oh sure. It's not my point. I assume we are discussing my !vote. I think the NAC should be reverted some someone else to close. I have no issue with what I think is your point, which I think is that the end result should be the same. "Demonstrably bad" in terms of style and equivocating by a technically incompliant NAC close. Not necessarily bad in terms of the end result. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:46, 29 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn per all above. My preference would have been an overturn to no consensus, but a reclose by someone else will be fine. RMCI says being a non-admin is not a reason in itself to overturn something, but this is an issue of a closer who has made enough mistakes on RMs in the past that their judgement on closing contentious ones can be questioned. IAR on it and punt to someone else not involved to judge. TonyBallioni (talk) 03:52, 23 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- RMCI does say "the mere fact that the closer was not an admin is not sufficient reason to reverse a closure", but no one is saying that. The additional facts, that the closer did not follow the advice of WP:NAC, or the instructions of WP:RMNAC, or the fact that they made a dubious looking close. There is no need to appeal to IAR, it is documented, in two places. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 21:46, 23 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- I don't see anything in either of those that was violated to the point of overturning. The issue is that this closer in particular has made several bad calls in the past and had trips to move review before to the point where the community (or at least those of us who are activish in these matters) aren't confident in this close being done by them, and the convoluted nature of this close makes it better for someone else to do it. TonyBallioni (talk) 21:57, 23 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- I think we are talking at cross-points. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 10:47, 24 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- "The issue is that this closer has made several bad call in the past...". The issue here and now is the decision on this move-request, and the decision was correct. As the closer said in their decision, "The move was supported by good policy based arguments." The closer is correct in that, and that is what chiefly matters for this decision. (Nominator Aliveness Cascade (talk) 10:22, 24 May 2017 (UTC))[reply]
- No, the close was flummoxed because it went from one justifiable close to another without a very good rationale in my opinion, and the fact that there have been issues in the past and the community would prefer that someone else who is more experienced take a look at it is reason enough to have another uninvolved closer evaluate it. I personally think the first close of no consensus was correct and that it should be overturned to that, but I'm willing to have another closer take a look. I would have been fine if they had done a courtesy relist, but if you can't find a consensus in your initial close, moving to move on something that is controversial is not a good idea. TonyBallioni (talk) 16:23, 24 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- What arguments of the two opposers do you find equally strong to the arguments, evidence, and logic of the move request (and its defense and support), that allows you to reach an opinion of "no consensus", given that WP:RMCI#Three_possible_outcomes, says "no consensus" is indicated when "equally strong arguments and appeals to Wikipedia policy and outside sources were found on both sides"?Aliveness Cascade (talk) 17:17, 24 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I've been informed that it was wrong of me to ping move-supporters TAnthony and Born2Cycle into this review discussion, and not move-opposer @Livelikemusic: and neutral-voter @Old Naval Rooftops:. Sincere apologies to the latter for bothering you now. It is necessary in the interests of fairness and balance. This is a one-off to restore balance. Thank you.Aliveness Cascade (talk) 09:49, 24 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse move to Lucas Horton. The move is supported by WP:COMMONNAME, WP:SET#Notability, and WP:ASTONISH. The closer was entirely correct in saying "The move was supported by good policy based arguments." The opposition's arguments were based on a fallacious use of google searches without the quote marks which are needed to indicate the phrases being tested for notability. This was sufficiently explained to the opposition within the move debate, but was repeatedly dismissed out-of-hand by the main opposer. Nevertheless it is a fact. The opposition's argument is entirely based on fallacious use of google searches and false logic; whereas the nominator's arguments are based on correct and appropriate use of google searches with enclosing quote marks to indicate the phrases being tested for notability; and good logic, and appeals to the policies of to WP:ASTONISH and WP:COMMONNAME and plain common sense. The discussion shows that Flyer22 Reborn (the main opposer) initially has no understanding of the nature of the searches with and without enclosing quote marks; and it also I'm afraid shows that she had no interest in it when this was pointed out and explained to her. Instead of taking advantage of the information presented to her and seeking understanding of how google searches work and what the policy is on the matter, she initiated a move-review to overturn the move, which would put the article back at a location which is not supported by policy, which is not WP:COMMONNAME, and which is not the name used by the show, and which hasn't been used by the show for the past nine-and-a-half years. Such an overturn would endorse Flyer22 Reborn's fallacious notion that quote marks in searches don't matter, and go against the actual fact that they totally matter, and would go against WP:SET#Notability. If this article is moved back to Lucas Roberts (which is what on overturn will do) then that will be in conflict with the policy of WP:SET#Notability, and be in conflict with the very facts of how googles searches work. A move back to Lucas Roberts should only be done if you are also prepared to move Virgin of the Rocks to Madonna of the Rocks, and change WP:SET and WP:SET#Notability to say, a la Flyer22 Reborn, that quote marks don't matter. Are you prepared to do that? Moving the article to the current and predominant name Lucas Horton, is the right decision, in accordance with WP:COMMONNAME, WP:SET, and WP:ASTONISH, and it should not be reversed. The closer could have written a better rationale, but the decision is right! A better closer rationale would have been "There are strong arguments for the move, supported by WP:COMMONNAME, WP:ASTONISH, and evidence from google searches made in accordance with WP:SET#Notability, and referenced sources; whereas the opposition argument was fallacious, being entirely based on a mistaken view of how google searches work, and contrary to WP:SET#Notability". The fallacious arguments against the move should *not* be endorsed by overturning the move, nor given false equivalence by a "no consensus" result. This is why it's very important to endorse the move to Lucas Horton, which is backed by policy, evidence, and common sense. (Nominator: Aliveness Cascade (talk) 20:20, 28 May 2017 (UTC))[reply]
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