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Archived discussion for December 2008 from Wikipedia:In the news section on the Main Page/Candidates.

December 31

December 31, 2008 (2008-12-31) (Wednesday)

ITN candidates for December 31

  • Last nomination of 2008:
World's largest site of dinosaur fossils is found near Zhucheng city of China.
Feel free to alter the blurb, but mention that this is a huge discovery. Expanded the article multiple times Very much encyclopedic news. Happy new year 2009!!! --GPPande 22:31, 31 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Going to post. SpencerT♦C 23:12, 31 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
When you've finished with the article, you have my support to post it. --Tone 18:15, 1 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Could you give it a lookover? SpencerT♦C 18:25, 1 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I think it is ok. Maybe some more content about the aftermath but more will be known later I suppose. I think it's ready to post. --Tone 18:33, 1 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Posted. SpencerT♦C 18:53, 1 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

December 30

ITN candidates for December 30

The final election result count is yet to be declared officially - should be done in next couple of hours. --GPPande 07:31, 30 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The official confirmation has come. Article is updated with the results. I think we can post it to ITN now. Feel free to alter the wordings, am not good at it. --GPPande 13:36, 30 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Posting. --Tone 14:00, 30 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

and replace the part about Yves Leterme with it.

The section about becoming PM in Van Rompuy's article is one sentence long at the moment. When expanded, I think it is a good idea to post. --Tone 17:01, 30 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Van Rompuy I Government is a brand new wikipage.
-- 199.71.174.100 (talk) 18:38, 30 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well done, posting. --Tone 19:30, 30 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hey! We have two items with Belgium prime minister on ITN !!! Remove one. --GPPande 20:12, 30 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Done. SpencerT♦C 20:31, 30 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oops, missed that one... Thanks for fixing ;-) --Tone 20:39, 30 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Can we have the Turkmenstan item back, please? The two sides on the main page are not balanced now. The right side is too short. --199.71.174.100 (talk) 21:15, 30 December 2008 (UTC) Never mind. We have new news from Guinea. (below) --199.71.174.100 (talk) 21:35, 30 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Kabiné Komara is also a brand new wikipage. --199.71.174.100 (talk) 21:30, 30 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The coup article needs some more content on the new PM, otherwise I think we can update the blurb we have at the moment. --Tone 21:48, 30 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Update? I was thinking of a replacement. The new content on the new Pm can be found in the new PM's wikipage. Here's a shorter blurb:
--199.71.174.100 (talk) 22:01, 30 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Posting. SpencerT♦C 02:52, 31 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

December 29

December 29, 2008 (2008-12-29) (Monday)

ITN candidates for December 29


The article is updated, the topic is standard ITN material, posting. Someone please upload the photo (a cropped version may be better). --Tone 20:49, 29 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Personally, the licensing seems a bit suspect (normally photos like that come from a government source, but this comes from an Indonesian-language Wikipedia - no too many of those in Somalia), so I'm not going to rush and use it. SpencerT♦C 22:25, 29 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'd like to have the article about the winner blue first... Hm, I don't know, we usually don't put sub-entity elections on ITN. Any other opinions? --Tone 15:47, 30 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Nope, we don't post election results from Scotland, Hong Kong, Puerto Rico, etc. either. It should be something historic like Sark elections ending feudal order in Europe or Greenland's referendum for autonomy from Denmark. Try DYK. --GPPande 15:52, 30 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
We had Taiwan elections, but those are from a more autonomous state considered by many to be an independent nation. However, Bouganville is much, much smaller, and as gppande said, it's not historic like other sub-entities. Oppose. SpencerT♦C 17:08, 30 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think you mean "massacres carried out by Ugandan rebels in the Democratic Republic of Congo". --199.71.174.100 (talk) 21:20, 30 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

December 28

December 28, 2008 (2008-12-28) (Sunday)

ITN candidates for December 28

Oppose the immigrants one: Illegal migrant are nothing new on Lampedusa. Support the election; I'll see if I can update. SpencerT♦C 17:57, 28 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Final election results come out tomorrow at noon UTC. SpencerT♦C 18:06, 29 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Too close to call, appears there's a recount. SpencerT♦C 17:10, 30 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

December 27

December 27, 2008 (2008-12-27) (Saturday)

ITN candidates for December 27

Do we have an article already? Support then. --Tone 12:44, 27 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
What article? None of the article linked to above by Hektor seem to be specific or were bolded. Gaza Strip does mention the attacks but it is completely unsourced and seems too newsy and a bad case of recentism for a general article on the Gaza Strip. It would be better covered in sub articles like Gaza–Israel conflict + Violence in the Israeli–Palestinian conflict 2008 + 2008 Israel–Gaza conflict none of which mention the attacks at all + probably an article on this latest operation Nil Einne (talk) 14:15, 27 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I just said I think that the topic is ITN material. Of course, a well-updated article is a prerequisite. --Tone 14:26, 27 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I would also support this, if there were an article. I've tried looking for the past 30 minutes or so and can't find one yet. Coverage of the story is on most major networks websites. Caulde 15:04, 27 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see any point to this discussion. I highly doubt there is going to be any objection to this. We just need an article which we don't have. The only thing that may be necessary to discuss is the wording Nil Einne (talk) 16:26, 27 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry when you said "Do we have an article already? Support then" I thought you meant "oh so we have an article already, well support then" not "If we have an article I will support" Nil Einne (talk) 16:26, 27 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
My bad, too much shortening of sentences... The post is fine now and the article is developing well, so it seems. --Tone 21:02, 27 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

<--- I've begun a section about this at 2008 Israel–Gaza conflict#Later airstrikes. It's stubby and needs renaming, but we can start putting together something here. SpencerT♦C 16:34, 27 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Does it look good enough to post now? SpencerT♦C 17:23, 27 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Should be, just correct a few spelling errors. With respect to the thread hook, I would suggest "After the end of a six-month ceasefire, Israel launches Operation Cast Lead in the Gaza Strip following recent militant attacks by Hamas, killing over 200". Caulde 17:30, 27 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
May need shortening? Caulde 17:35, 27 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
We need to mention Gaza as the location. Do you mind if I edit your wording suggestion in the comment? SpencerT♦C 17:46, 27 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No, go ahead. Caulde 17:46, 27 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Also, is there an article for the ceasefire? SpencerT♦C 17:48, 27 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I couldn't find one, but I presume it'll be in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict article somewhere. Caulde 17:55, 27 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

December 26

December 26, 2008 (2008-12-26) (Friday)

ITN candidates for December 26

December 25

December 25, 2008 (2008-12-25) (Thursday)

ITN candidates for December 25

December 24

December 24, 2008 (2008-12-24) (Wednesday)

ITN candidates for December 24

December 23

December 23, 2008 (2008-12-23) (Tuesday)

ITN candidates for December 23

  • I just posted an article about toxic coal spill in Tennessee, and I'd like to nominate it for a headline spot in ITN on the main-page. Not sure if this is the appropriate way to do so, but bear with me please :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by YAYsocialism (talk • contribs) 20:47, 24 December 2008
Thanks for nomming, but we need an article on the spill. Anyone got anything? I'd support inclusion. Master of Puppets Call me MoP! :D 21:51, 24 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Expanding Tennessee coal sludge spill; will post with this blurb:
"The largest coal slurry spill in the United States occurs when a coal-fired power plant in Kingston, Tennessee, releases 500 million gallons (1892 million liters) of fly ash slurry into the surrounding area." Master of Puppets Call me MoP! :D 02:46, 25 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Ready to post; "The largest-ever coal slurry spill in the United States occurs when a coal-fired power plant in Kingston, Tennessee, releases 500 million gallons (1.8 billion litres) of fly ash slurry into the surrounding area." I'd post it myself but there's no urgent need, so people can look over it first and see if everything's good. Master of Puppets Call me MoP! :D 03:28, 25 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the attention; this is getting buried in holiday-related news so would be great to get up on the main page. An image would be nice but none is showing up on Flickr. How about uploading a fair use image (with rationale), as this is a fairly inaccessible location? Badagnani (talk) 03:38, 25 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I doubt that a fair-use image exists, given that only news organizations have access. I'll look around on government sites. Master of Puppets Call me MoP! :D 05:14, 25 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Excellent! I found a free-use image to use. Once I finish converting the video (government-made, which makes it awesomely free) I'll grab a screengrab and probably upload the video to boot. Master of Puppets Call me MoP! :D 05:31, 25 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Posting; also, using File:TVAHouseflood.jpg as the image. Master of Puppets Call me MoP! :D 06:21, 25 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Was president at the time of death, clearly meets any death criteria. As said, the article needs an update. SpencerMerry Christmas! 02:49, 23 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
According to the article, there's something going on right now, a possible coup d'etat. Let's wait a little to see if there is any major development, otherwise we can put this on, meets the criteria. --Tone 08:42, 23 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think the death criteria is met and so the news merits listing now. If the coup is made official and seizure of power actually happens then blurb can be modified later accordingly. What do you say? --GPPande 12:55, 23 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well, since we already have 2008 Guinean coup d'état article, I think now is an appropriate time to propose the wording. --Tone 12:57, 23 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
blurb: President Lansana Conté death sparks coup d'état in Guinea.
Not sure if this sounds correct or may be something else. I am not good at this. --GPPande 13:06, 23 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
blurb: The death of Guinean President Lansana Conté sparks a coup d'état.
My suggestion. Thue | talk 13:37, 23 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
looks good.Geni 13:40, 23 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Posting. --Tone 14:06, 23 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Not sure "sparks" is the right word. Posted as
--PFHLai (talk) 14:12, 23 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Even better. --Tone 14:13, 23 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm iffy on this one; that image is usable, yes, but in terms of aesthetic worth it is mediocre. Any where you can clearly see him? Master of Puppets Call me MoP! :D 23:13, 23 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]


Support, but I don't see any updates to the article. All I see is 2 sentences in the intro. SpencerMerry Christmas! 17:22, 23 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I've added the first outline in the section Yves Leterme#Fortis and fall of government. I will expand and update the section and add references this evening (Dutch time). Aecis·(away) talk 17:41, 23 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Aecis, are you still working on this? --PFHLai (talk) 04:56, 26 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Here's my suggested headline:
Or shall we wait till a new PM forms a new coalition government, hopefully around new year's day. --PFHLai (talk) 05:31, 26 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm going to post now, without bolding Fortis. We need a new item. SpencerT♦C 19:55, 26 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The collapse of a government is significant enough in itself imo. I don't think we need to wait for a new coalition government, which, given Belgium's recent history, could be a long way away anyway. After the previous elections, it took almost a year to form a government. Aecis·(away) talk 23:51, 26 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

December 22

December 22, 2008 (2008-12-22) (Monday)

ITN candidates for December 22

No deaths, and more suitable for DYK in my opinion. SpencerMerry Christmas! 17:04, 23 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This can be combined with the proposed headline below. Any suggestions? --Tone 15:40, 22 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"The United States and Canada announce auto industry bailout packages amidst global auto industry financial crisis as Toyota, the world's largest automaker, forecasts losses for the first time in history." Sound good? A bit wordy, I think, but I'm not sure how else to combine them. I'll post the below headline by itself, I think. Master of Puppets Call me MoP! :D 00:47, 23 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The problem is the blurb implies that only the US and Canada have 'bailed out' their car industries. Both Sweden (Volvo, Saab, Scania) and Germany (Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Porsche, Volkswagen) have made investments too and several others (UK, France, Japan etc) could follow. Maybe it should be more inclusive and just say 'several countries' instead. As for Toyota I think that should go up as they are the largest car company in the world --Daviessimo (talk) 08:49, 23 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
An IP suggested:
How about: In Turkmenistan, the first parliamentary election since the abolition of the People's Council is held, and winners are announced for 123 of 125 seats.
Should it be mentioned that all 288 candidates ran on a platform of support for Gurbanguly Berdimuhammedov? 70.239.12.70 (talk) 23:03, 23 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think the platform of support for the president is a good idea, and I'm trying to think of a way to incorporate it. SpencerMerry Christmas! 02:09, 24 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Posting without mention of the president. If anyone can think of a good wording, I'm open to it. SpencerMerry Christmas! 20:34, 24 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

December 21

December 21, 2008 (2008-12-21) (Sunday)

ITN candidates for December 21

With Canada declaring a bailout for auto industry, second country in row for this industry in specific, I think it merits a listing. --GPPande 20:49, 21 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Greece riots are ok, but the auto industry issue may have merit if we can cobble together a good section somewhurr. Master of Puppets Call me MoP! :D 23:56, 21 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I've updated the Greek riots entry. --BorgQueen (talk) 00:13, 22 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Auto industry crisis article mentioned below contains the update of Canadian package. We can twist the blurb a little bit to highlight the Global auto industry crisis at large if we think the bailout does not qualify to ITN due to small amount. Recent Toyota and Honda statements of first time losses in more than half a century is making this more relevant. Tata Motors is providing a bailout for Jaguar plant in UK. The auto industry crisis is in all parts of world and not just north America. --GPPande 13:12, 22 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think I will support this now. Please, propose a headline. --Tone 13:36, 22 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Feel free to change the wordings. I have formatted the header completely, added a new section for Japanese industry, consolidated Canadian section and expanded European one. Not much information on South Korean big three. --GPPande 14:20, 22 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Posted as "The United States and Canada announce automotive industry bailout packages to counter the global auto industry financial crisis." Master of Puppets Call me MoP! :D 00:55, 23 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

December 20

December 20, 2008 (2008-12-20) (Saturday)

ITN candidates for December 20

This appears to be in desperate need of an update. Irish banking irregularities anyone? --➨Candlewicke  :) Sign/Talk 21:06, 20 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This can be includedin the auto industry bailout plus the other bailouts lately. –Howard the Duck 01:03, 21 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps 2008 submarine cable disruption#19 December? --PFHLai (talk) 20:03, 21 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Way too short but the story has a potential. --Tone 20:34, 21 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Expanded and posting as: Damaged submarine communications cables (diagram pictured) cause disruption in communication throughout the Middle East and Asia. Master of Puppets Call me MoP! :D 23:39, 21 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
That is, "Damaged submarine communications cables (diagram pictured) cause disruption in intercontinental communication throughout the Middle East and Asia." Used File:Submarine cable cross-section 3D plain ITN.svg as image. Master of Puppets Call me MoP! :D 23:51, 21 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

December 19

December 19, 2008 (2008-12-19) (Friday)

ITN candidates for December 19

  • Does anyone think that the auto industry bailout plan is worth ITN? The amount of $17Bn is small (compared gigantic previous bailout packages) but the impact of this bailout plan seems pretty enormous, considering the current grim employment scenario and real dependence of economy of not just US but 35 other nations too where GM operates. I think the 100 year old company, worlds largest auto manufacturer with 266,000 employees just go an artificial breathing machine to celebrate 101th birthday. --GPPande 18:26, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Nomination: Bailout package of US$17.4 billion is announced for three big auto manufacturers of United states during ongoing financial crisis.
Article is updated. Feel to alter the blurb - I am not good at it. --GPPande 20:59, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I dunno... this doesn't seem any more notable than any of the other financial issues. All of them have large implications worldwide. Master of Puppets Call me MoP! :D 08:58, 20 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yup, we did cover almost all bailout packages by various countries on ITN. Canada is also suppose to declare a bailout for big three on Monday. It will be more ITN worthy then. We can go for this one now. --GPPande 13:48, 20 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
$17.4B seems rather small-time now. Japan just approved another aid package at $54B. I'm getting numb about these figures... --PFHLai (talk) 22:06, 20 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The International Criminal Tribunal sentences Théoneste Bagosora and two other senior Rwandan army officers to life imprisonment for their role in Rwandan Genocide (museum pictured).

Regarding the bailout, what would the focus article be? Maybe support. Regarding the image, on small resolution it is not clear what is on the image so I would prefer another one. --Tone 19:09, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I've cropped the image and posted. Better than the check post image, still. --BorgQueen (talk) 19:16, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I have uploaded another closeup image of skulls from Flickr (lot of choice there with images in CC license). Not sure if such images on main page would seem nice but we have few options (I wonder why they don't bury/cremate the dead?). But this second image needs to pass flickr review before it goes up on ITN. If fine, admins - please keep an eye. --GPPande 19:49, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I hate to say this, but is this really an appropriate picture? Can't we get one on anything else? For some reason this just strikes me as placing far too much emphasis on the gravity of the war; leaning far from neutral. I'll try to find some other images, I guess. Master of Puppets Call me MoP! :D 08:47, 20 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Only if the resignation is accepted by King. --GPPande 21:13, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The King can't refuse except under certain circumstances; once the PM decides to resign, the fall of the government is more or less a fait accompli. Lockesdonkey (talk) 05:12, 20 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Just tendering a resignation is significant enough for ITN, imo. The wording of this blurb is important though. Basically the government had been accused of trying to influence the judges in a court case over the sale of Fortis. Aecis·(away) talk 13:24, 20 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Update is now appropriate, I think. --Tone 15:47, 23 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Personally, €87 million isn't enough, and the repercussions aren't really large enough. I see it was created on December 20, so you might want to nominate for DYK. SpencerMerry Christmas! 15:51, 22 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

December 18

December 18, 2008 (2008-12-18) (Thursday)

ITN candidates for December 18

Indeed. Also, the Ruanda genocide verdict would be a good candidate, only the article needs updates. --Tone 12:49, 18 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'd support that nom as well. Can't update article now, gotta run to school. Master of Puppets Call me MoP! :D 13:16, 18 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
See if we can procure good free images for the items currently on ITN. Really a shortage of images I would say. --GPPande 12:55, 18 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Flood article here; 2008 Papua New Guinea floods. I'll work on images for everything else, I s'pose. Master of Puppets Call me MoP! :D 13:14, 18 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Posted as:
--PFHLai (talk) 15:39, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

December 17

December 17, 2008 (2008-12-17) (Wednesday)

ITN candidates for December 17

Aldo L (talk) 03:32, 17 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Is this a nomination or has this been put in candidates rather than events by mistake? --Daviessimo (talk) 08:58, 17 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]


  • Image: I have uploaded a an image of Bernard Madoff on Commons from flickr. But the image would need a manual review before it can be posted on WP main page. Admins - please keep an eye on this and use it when passed flickr review on commons. --GPPande 13:22, 17 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Forget it. It got nominated for deletion :-( --GPPande 14:00, 17 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have uploaded another image showing EU-Swiss border check post. Wordings can be whereby cross-border passport checks (pictured) will be abolished. Hopefully this image should pass the test now on commons. --GPPande 14:38, 17 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Image has passed flickr review. Now it can be used for ITN. --GPPande 15:23, 17 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Posted, thanks. --BorgQueen (talk) 15:45, 17 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Rewrote/expanded the article completely. Discovery is ITN worthy and encyclopedic in nature. Feel free to change the blurb as suitable. --GPPande 19:27, 17 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

December 16

December 16, 2008 (2008-12-16) (Tuesday)

ITN candidates for December 16

Sure support for this news which is from Dec 16 and not Dec 17. But again we would have an item with no image. --GPPande 13:08, 17 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
In terms of subject notability, I'm not sure this item is vastly important in the whole scheme of things. Not to sound disrespectful or anything, but people die in accidents all the time. Master of Puppets Call me MoP! :D 18:23, 17 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure. 25 is a lot, but I also think that this could be a candidate for DYK if it was updated recently enough. SpencerMerry Christmas! 20:58, 17 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It is the worst road accident in the country's history (in terms of deaths), so that could be added to the tagline. пﮟოьεԻ 57 22:05, 17 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think I'd rather see this as a DYK candidate than on ITN. Also, with respect to all other countries, record-making tragedies happen a lot; they're not horribly important due to their frequency. All I'm saying is that it would be seen as giving undue weight to a relatively common thing. Also, is it internationally notable/relevant? Master of Puppets Call me MoP! :D 23:17, 17 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
So nominated for DYK. --PFHLai (talk) 00:13, 18 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Is this in the news? Which article is the ITN candidate? --PFHLai (talk) 07:43, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This happened what, one month ago? Master of Puppets Call me MoP! :D 07:56, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Not quite. Now its the electoral college who votes. Oppose: The election is enough (Though also we're putting the inauguration). SpencerMerry Christmas! 01:00, 17 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Are we really putting the inauguration??? –Howard the Duck 03:08, 18 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
As far as I understood from last discussion, we would be mentioning the take-over of White House by Obama administration. The blurb would focus on the entire team instead of just Barack Obama. I had suggested that Presidential transition of Barack Obama article can be the bold article. But it will all depend on what happens at the time of inauguration - if Obama declares something major then it can be used also. --GPPande 07:49, 18 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Got a source? If you manage to find one just add the story in the template above this. Cheers, Master of Puppets Call me MoP! :D 08:20, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The article is full of the required sources, pick any one you like. Zunaid 15:43, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I am aware of the ongoing political developments in SA, but as I had mentioned earlier (few weeks back I guess), I am not sure if this news would be ITN worthy. Let the party contest one election minimum. At the skeleton, it is just formation of a political party in a nation. This happens frequently in many other multi-party democracy countries. --GPPande 13:10, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
However in this case we are talking about a split in the African National Congress, by far the largest and most dominant political party in South Africa (69.69% of the vote in the previous general election, enough to make unilateral changes to the contitution), and the formation of the first realistic black opposition party that could take a significant proportion of the votes. This is merely the culmination of issues that have been on the front pages of newspapers here since the 52nd National Conference of the African National Congress in December 2007, and more so since the conclusion of the Jacob Zuma corruption trial and the removal of Thabo Mbeki as president of South Africa. It is HARD to convey all this in the limited space afforded by ITN (I've rephrased to make it sound more significant), however all these details and history are discussed in the bolded article as linked. We wouldn't even be discussing this if it was a split in the Republican or Democratic Party, so why should it need to be motivated further just because it is some other country? Zunaid 15:43, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Exactly. As you said above that could take a significant proportion of the votes. That's speculative. So I had said, let it show up in one election minimum. Sorry if I am appearing too bullish here. Just it just my two cents. --GPPande 16:11, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Did you read anything else I typed or did you latch on to one point that suited your argument? It is not OR either if that's what you're implying. All political analysts over here have been quite emphatic that COPE would take a significant proportion of the votes, potentially displacing the Democratic Alliance as the new official opposition in parliament, and at a stretch, possibly reducing the ANC's vote to <50% for the first time. Zunaid 06:20, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Will ANC lose the majority in the SA Parliament due to MPs defecting to COPE tomorrow? If not, I don't see how this brand new party, which has done nothing yet, can be significant so soon on the day it is formed. Achieve something first. It has to wait till it wins the next general election to get on ITN, DA permitting. --74.13.129.214 (talk) 17:03, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
GAH!!! You guys are driving me up the wall! The point is NOT so much that COPE has been formed, but rather that it signifies the huge tensions within the ANC (the dominant political party BY FAR) that led to its split. A split in the ruling party of ANY country deserves an ITN entry IMHO. Rephrase the blurb if you think it doesn't succinctly capture the point, but dammit, I'm done arguing over this. Zunaid 06:20, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It depends on how the ruling party is split. If only a few MPs leave, making no impact on the ANC's control on the South African parliament, then I don't think we have big enough a story for ITN. If ANC loses its majority, I may be more supportive of this nomination. BTW, please don't post nominations on Portal: Current events. Headlines should only appear on P:CE after things happen. ITN/C-related discussion should not appear over there either. I'm moving them here:
And please take care of the {merge}. Thanks. --PFHLai (talk) 06:37, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Merge tag issue has been sorted out. (p.s. I also refactored this section slightly) Zunaid 08:57, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with PFHLai here. While I don't deny given the dominant party system that has existed since the end of apartheid in South Africa, the split in the ANC seems significant, ultimately only time will tell (in other words all we really have is speculatiion of what could happen at the moment). We really have to wait until the election to know. Sure the fact that high level members are involved as well as the result of some by-elections suggest this is significant but if this party gets 5 seats in the next election and then dies soon after that, it's likely to be barely a footnote in history. BTW, because of the party list system used in South Africa and the Floor crossing (South Africa) system, there is no real chance this is going to result in a change in government unless perhaps a no confidence motion is called. Incidentally the Sabah Progressive Party pulled out of the ruling coalition (with their two MPs) in Malaysia a few months ago. While this was partially reflective of an uncertain situation behind the scenes after what many would call a momentuous election a few months prior and a lot of talk of the government losing power with the opposition leader even claiming he had the numbers, ultimately nothing really came from it and I would have opposed any story about SAPP pulling out. Nil Einne (talk) 14:22, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sorry, how the hell does "number of sources" establish notability? This hardly seems any more significant than the split in the ANC. Zunaid 06:20, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Usually signifies international interest, hence the sources from Xinhua, AP, Reuters, New York Times, BBC, The Times, etc. Master of Puppets Call me MoP! :D 06:42, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Please note that Rod Blagojevich federal fraud cases is currently scheduled to appear on MainPage as a DYK later today. Let's not have the same thing on two sections of MainPage at the same time. --PFHLai (talk) 06:24, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, and why not? There isn't really a hard and fast rule - if something is notable now, we should post it now, regardless of what is in the DYK. Master of Puppets Call me MoP! :D 06:43, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
For one thing, it was nominated for DYK by one of the primary authors of this article. It's obvious that he wants it there, so we should respect his wish. Secondly, this story was briefly on ITN already, and it was removed (by me) by popular demand. See Dec.9th below. I believe there is interest from many people around the world because of the Obama connection (his seat, actually), but I am not going to fight the crowd. And I am not going to fuel any meaningless arguments. I am just a facilitator here. --PFHLai (talk) 06:57, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
December 9 was a week ago, when the story was still developing; I opposed it then. Right now it seems it has picked up a lot more steam. Just because something sees ITN and is removed doesn't mean it can't go back up. Also, no offense to this user, but his wish shouldn't prohibit news from being updated. Master of Puppets Call me MoP! :D 07:14, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
In the spirit of collaborative editing in the wiki, I'd advise against deliberately messing up a fellow Wikipedian's plans. --PFHLai (talk) 07:46, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I know I am opposing quite few noms recently, but I still doubt the Illinois Governor case really deserves an ITN. He is leader of a sub-national entity and I doubt if there is any impact on even neighboring states forget international? Just because all media sources are carrying it should not pressurize us to do so. --GPPande 07:56, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well, it shows international interest. Whether or not there are tangible international repercussions isn't important here, I feel.
Also, PFHLai: Where did Tony say that he didn't want this in ITN? Or where did anyone say that we can't have two things about the same topic up at once, while I'm at it? Master of Puppets Call me MoP! :D 08:00, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You might want to read this: Articles that have appeared on the main page's In the News section are not eligible. --BorgQueen (talk) 08:22, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
What a silly criterion. Whatever, DYK is updated 50 times a day, so this could go on after that, right? Anyone? Master of Puppets Call me MoP! :D 08:47, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No. Editors in the various sections on MainPage (all admins) do not fight for content, and generally stay out of each others' way. There is no written rules on this, but we do not double-feature anything on MainPage. The Blagojevich item is now scheduled for DYK, as Tony requested. Let it be. --PFHLai (talk) 10:43, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well as was discussed about this below, 'international interest' cannot be gauged by the number of media reporting. Organisations such as the BBC have whole departments (and in their case worldwide channels) that are devoted to international news stories. If you want to know the notability abroad you have to access websites through a local based IP. Now on the BBC.co.uk news home page this story is not present, however both the South Africa political party and US Fraud case are. Thus the BBC see a new political party in SA as more internationally important than this and I would personally concur. --Daviessimo (talk) 09:00, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
While you have somewhat of a point, I don't think you comparison is fair since the story is getting a bit old now so it's not surprising the world has moved on Nil Einne (talk) 14:23, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The question is how to quantify the "international interest" criterion so we can agree on what item has "international interest". Too many people are obsssesed with "international importance" they totally forget "international interest" has an equal standing too. News organizations determine which stories are notable and which are not. Hence, notable for them = notable for ITN. Some news websites have two versions/editions: one for their intended local audience (BBC=UK, CNN=U.S.) and one for everyone else, and both can be easily accessed from either version hence it is easy to determine which stories have big interest. Anyhow, I'd support this iff the Illinois governor (his name is really hard to spell :D) is removed from office. That'll be the breakthrough for this story. –Howard the Duck 05:39, 17 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
So far, not enough notability, I feel. We don't know the repercussions (or even the circumstances) yet. Master of Puppets Call me MoP! :D 07:24, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I agree we need to wait for now. Btw, a rebel group claimed today that they kidnapped Fowler. --BorgQueen (talk) 14:10, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'd support the story, but please take care of those {{incomplete}} tags on ASEAN and ASEAN Charter before posting this onto MainPage. --PFHLai (talk) 07:50, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Removed the incomplete tags, as they were around before the whole thing was ratified. They should be sufficiently updated now. Master of Puppets Call me MoP! :D 07:56, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well, posting. Master of Puppets Call me MoP! :D 09:26, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Good. If the deletion discussion comes to a keep - we could use Flag of ASEAN for image. --GPPande 09:35, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Sounds good to me. In the meantime, there's the Romanian election below that could be posted; nobody's commented on my update yet though so I'm not sure what consensus is. There's an image ready to accompany it. Master of Puppets Call me MoP! :D 09:49, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
(ec) A cropped map of ASEAN countries would do as well, the discussion about the flag will probably take some time. In any case, we need an image update since the current image is associated with the lowest ITN item. --Tone 09:51, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Meh, maps on ITN make MoP sad. I think we'll be ok with the Emil Boc image below, but that's just me. Master of Puppets Call me MoP! :D 10:09, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, I realize this is not that official and accepted around the world. Skipped. --GPPande 08:07, 17 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

December 15

December 15, 2008 (2008-12-15) (Monday)

ITN candidates for December 15

Korat Post copyrights all of their work, so it is non-free I'd say. Couldn't find any non-free replacements either. Master of Puppets Call me MoP! :D 06:26, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for looking, MoP! If you feel like looking for more pictures for ITN, try Emil Boc, the latest Romanian PM-designate. We may finally have an excuse to get Romanian legislative election, 2008 on ITN. Happy searching. :-) --PFHLai (talk) 06:45, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I dunno about posting it on ITN (bit stale of a story, lol) but I'll look for a picture. Master of Puppets Call me MoP! :D 07:33, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
How come this is not on ITN? Nergaal (talk) 07:33, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Emil Boc
A bit more expansion would be loved in the Emil Boc section. And a picture, of course. I'll post it if we can get rid of the first one, second one isn't vital. Master of Puppets Call me MoP! :D 07:38, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Blurbage: "Emil Boc recieves the Romanian Democratic Liberal Party's Prime Ministerial nomination.

(unindent) How does that look? Master of Puppets Call me MoP! :D 08:34, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The article is well updated. ITN material, sure. I'd propose an alternative blurb, something like After winning plurality in the election, Emil Boc is nominated PM. Opinions? --Tone 09:53, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm down with that. "After winning a plurality in the Romanian legislative election, Emil Boc is nominated to be the Prime Minister." How does that look? Master of Puppets Call me MoP! :D 10:06, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Ready to post, I'd say. Go ahead and you can also put up the photo. --Tone 10:09, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Will do. Someone's going to kill me for using up two good items in the space of an hour... :P Master of Puppets Call me MoP! :D 10:23, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Problem: Has Boc formed his coalition government yet? The first PM-designate quit before forming government. We don't know if Boc will actually become PM of Romania. I'm afraid this item as gone on ITN a little prematurely. Very nice picture, though. --PFHLai (talk) 10:47, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Also, Boc did not win plurality, neither did his party, Democratic Liberal Party (Romania). Social Democratic Party (Romania) won plurality by <1%. Please fix or remove from MainPage. --PFHLai (talk) 10:55, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I've removed this from ITN for now. We need a new headline. And I suggest we wait till we have a coalition government formed first. --PFHLai (talk) 11:05, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, wait a minute. The prose and the table in Romanian legislative election, 2008 don't match? I'm lost.... --PFHLai (talk) 11:10, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, Democratic Liberal Party (Romania), the party, not Emil Boc the person, indeed won plurality. Social Democratic Party (Romania) had more votes but fewer seats. I got confused by all the rounding and all the similar numbers. Sorry about that. But we should wait till we have a coalition government formed. Boc may or may not end up as the PM. And the headline should mention the coalition government. Which single party has plurality doesn't matter when there are coalitions forming bigger blocs in parliament. --PFHLai (talk) 11:24, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
(outdent) A proposed headline for use on ITN when Boc successfully forms the coalition government as expected:
Go ahead. --GPPande 14:16, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Still no news on the formation of a new government. I hope this won't drag on like 2007–2008 Belgian government formation. --PFHLai (talk) 21:43, 20 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Finally posted. --PFHLai (talk) 22:37, 23 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

December 14

December 14, 2008 (2008-12-14) (Sunday)

ITN candidates for December 14

The Turkmenistani parliamentary election, 2008 is the first election in Turkmenistan since the abolition of the People's Council, and the first involving more than one political party. This story is ITN-material. Too bad we still don't have the results. --PFHLai (talk) 21:40, 20 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Results have to be announced by Monday according to Turkmen law. SpencerMerry Christmas! 19:50, 21 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hopefully we'll have sth for ITN tomorrow or so. --PFHLai (talk) 20:03, 21 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, the results were released, but the party affiliation of the candidates wasn't listed! Can you think of some wording for this? SpencerMerry Christmas! 16:10, 22 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
How about: In Turkmenistan, the first parliamentary election since the abolition of the People's Council is held, and winners are announced for 123 of 125 seats.
Should it be mentioned that all 288 candidates ran on a platform of support for Gurbanguly Berdimuhammedov? 70.239.12.70 (talk) 23:03, 23 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed spelling, noting above. SpencerMerry Christmas! 02:07, 24 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

December 13

December 13, 2008 (2008-12-13) (Saturday)

ITN candidates for December 13

The Madoff fraud is said to be $50billion. According to the Marc Stuart Dreier article, that fraud is only $380M. with over a factor 100 in difference, I don't think there is much of a comparison :). Thue | talk 12:26, 13 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
True, the Madoff case involves a higher dollar amount, but the Dreier case involves a larger number of people. --Eastlaw (talk) 19:15, 13 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I suspect that if you include all the people who ultimately end up losing money, Madoff's case will impact a much larger number of people. Dragons flight (talk) 00:43, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This is ITN-worthy because of the big numbers involved. Thue | talk 12:35, 13 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think this is noteworthy enough particularly as the investors will come from all over the world. However, the article needs a bit of expansion that deals with what he is accused of having done, as well as who it is likely to have affected --Daviessimo (talk) 01:23, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The article covers the relevant details pretty well now, and since we need a new item to go up, I'd suggest posting this. Random89 18:57, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Posted, thanks.--Pharos (talk) 19:12, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
We could use a better wording. Maybe include the largest investor fraud ever blamed on a single individual or similar. The current blurb is quite non-informative for non-experts on the topic. --Tone 19:15, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

December 12

December 12, 2008 (2008-12-12) (Friday)

ITN candidates for December 12

Support. But a quality update to Schengen Agreement is a pre-requisite. --GPPande 18:26, 12 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
There's a bit here, but I'm not sure how up to date it is --Daviessimo (talk) 18:39, 12 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Posted. Master of Puppets Call me MoP! :D 02:10, 13 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Dunno about this since this was only mentioned in passing in BBC World News. –Howard the Duck 02:24, 13 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
How prominently BBC World News mentions a story isn't the deciding factor at work here. ;) Master of Puppets Call me MoP! :D 09:04, 13 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
WTF? International interest, people? –Howard the Duck 11:28, 13 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well I'd suggest the international interest comes from the 24 other nations who now share 'open borders' with the Swiss. As for using BBC as a marker of international interest this[4] should remind us that being reported by international media doesn't neccesarily equate to being newsworthy --Daviessimo (talk) 00:28, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

December 11

December 11, 2008 (2008-12-11) (Thursday)

ITN candidates for December 11

If there's an updated article, I'll consider it. Right now at the link you gave, there's minimal if any updates about it. SpencerT♦C 12:27, 11 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

None of the above storys belong in the news section. There simply not notable enough. 88.111.134.84 (talk) 11:38, 12 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe we could do an article about the decline of spelling in the English language? --Blake the bookbinder (talk) 22:22, 12 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Amusing, but let's keep it relevant, k? Master of Puppets Call me MoP! :D 22:29, 12 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I guess it's too late to add it now, but I had written a short article on FSF vs. Cisco at the time. Xasodfuih (talk) 21:48, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

December 10

December 10, 2008 (2008-12-10) (Wednesday)

ITN candidates for December 10

Sark general election, 2008. Here, the election itself and not the result is the interesting thing. Feudalism in Europe in 21st century? Great story. --Tone 15:14, 10 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think it's really interesting story. The last feudal country in Europe. I've already put it on the Polish Main Page. Why it's not on the English one? :) It was on the Main Page before (April) when the Privy Council approved the changes in their undemocratic law. Now it's even more important. V1t 18:03, 10 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Elections marked the end of feudal era I suppose in Europe. Significant from perspective of a whole continent. Support. --GPPande talk! 18:23, 10 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It's up. Master of Puppets Call me MoP! :D 18:42, 10 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Crossposting this from WP:ERRORS:
But it's not the first democratic election there. They're moving from a Chief Pleas with 12 elected and 40 feudal members, to one with 28 elected and 2 feudal members (the seigneur and seneschal). Of course that is more democratic, but this isn't the first election nor the first fully elected chamber. It is the first time that Chief Pleas will have a majority of elected members though. Modest Genius talk 23:44, 10 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm changing the blurb to:
Hope this helps. --PFHLai (talk) 00:18, 11 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
BTW, can someone beef up the Sark general election, 2008 article, please? When the last section is entitled "Background", it's obvious the page is still under construction. I'm not sure such an "immature" page should be showcased on MainPage so soon. Thanks. --PFHLai (talk) 00:27, 11 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The results are in. The article looks much better now. ---PFHLai (talk) 23:53, 12 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose The general elections of 600 people are not significant. Jeff Carr (talk) 02:25, 11 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It's not the election itself that is of note. It's the fact that this is last territory in Europe to move from feudalism to democracy. --Daviessimo (talk) 08:10, 11 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

December 9

December 9, 2008 (2008-12-09) (Tuesday)

ITN candidates for December 9

Well, the article Operation Atlanta is obviously incomplete -- the last section before the Refs cannot possibly be "Prelude". What happened after June 2008? It doesn't even say the operation has started, as the nominated headline states. Please let us know when you are done building this wikiarticle. It's hard to evaluate when the wikiarticle doesn't tell us what has happened in the news and there are no newslinks in Portal:Current events to click and read up on. --PFHLai (talk) 12:38, 10 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Former Prime Minister of the Republic of Macedonia Vlado Bučkovski is sentenced to three and a half years in jail for abuse of power.(Forbes)
    • I think that sentencing of the former PM (previous one that is) is quite notable. Imagine Tony Blair or someone like that sentenced to jail. Well in this case it's Bučkovski.--Avala (talk) 17:20, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • If he were found guilty of abusing power as PM I would agree. Trouble is he wasn't. He was found guilty for abuse of power as Defence Minister and wasn't PM at the time. Nil Einne (talk) 08:23, 10 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        • Yes but he became after the abuse of power incident not before so he was the PM bearing the charges.--Avala (talk) 15:18, 10 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
          • He was no longer PM when the charges were brought and he wasn't PM when he abused his power so I don't see how you can say the PM had was charged. The former PM was charged from crimes he commited before he was PM which is a much less interesting story then a PM being charged or a former PM being charged for crimes he commited as a PM. To use a different example, if 5 years from now Bush was brought up for crimes he commited as governor of Texas no I don't think that should go on ITN. Nil Einne (talk) 10:10, 13 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Quickly remove: What is this news doing on top of the ITN section????? A Governor is arrested for possible bribery. Is it "internationally notable"? I would say the posting admin has clearly failed in understanding basic ITN policies. Somebody needs to pull this down as soon as possible. --GPPande talk! 17:30, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
All news related to Obama cannot go up on ITN. Only possible reason the admin seems to have given is in Edit summary. See here. --GPPande talk! 17:32, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I suggest replace this with Macedonian PM jail sentence suggestion from above.--Avala (talk) 17:36, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Removed by User:PFHLai. --BorgQueen (talk) 17:55, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I removed Blagojevich, not the Macedonian PM jail sentence suggestion. I can't look into that one yet. (My lunch hour is over.) --PFHLai (talk) 18:03, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Just wanna remind everyone that no prior consensus is required before any items are added to ITN. This Blagojevich item is now off the ITN for now. So ahead and discuss all you want. ( I may come back in a few hours.) --PFHLai (talk) 17:58, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks a ton! --GPPande talk! 18:06, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You're welcome. Thank BorgQueen for getting me to look here. ... For the record, I don't mind seeing this item on ITN as I expect some interests from around the world due to the Obama connection. Not super-strong, but some interests nonetheless. --PFHLai (talk) 12:19, 10 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • I added it because it's very rarely a sitting politician gets arrested for corruption, this is especially important that it has to do with Obama former Senate Seat. It's also reaching International News such as BBC and front page at the Times, so it's not a U.S only news Secret account 18:25, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • Some Governor appointed by Putin in some Russian Gubernia might have been arrested too but we don't care. Obviously US news get a bigger coverage in Anglophone media but it still doesn't make these news international. And this isn't even that surprising when you look at how many Illinois Governors got arrested, to start with the previous one George Ryan.--Avala (talk) 18:34, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Secret. See, it is rare that a sitting "U.S" politician (of less importance than head of state) gets arrested. But it is quite frequent in other parts of world. For example: Sudan's sitting President was convicted (by Security council in past I guess) and so deserved a place on ITN. A good example of notability and international importance. --GPPande talk! 18:40, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
And only last week a British MP was arrested for leaking government information. --Daviessimo (talk) 18:53, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Seems like most of you are unaware that the Blagojevich story actually does draw the attention of media around the world (see SPIEGEL, for example). Anyway, why should this US-American story be less interesting to the world than the 2008 Canadian parliamentary dispute or the Irish pork recall? Add the Blagojevich story! ––bender235 (talk) 20:05, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This is a minor, US-centric event, as GPPande states it. The Canadian parliamentary dispute and Irish pork recall had much larger repercussions, as noted in the press. Also, to Secret: just because this was covered internationally doesn't mean it is internationally notable. Almost every story that comes out nowadays will be mirrored on BBC, CNN, Reuters, CBC; however, they're not all internationally notable, just internationally noted. Finally, stories don't require previous consensus, but they do when the stories are of questionable ITN-notability, such as this one. Oh, and I'm in opposition of this being on ITN unless the story evolves. Master of Puppets Call me MoP! :D 21:00, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed. Canadian story is notable because it is the story regarding the main Government not provincial (or state in the matter here discussed) and the Irish story is Irish-world relation so it is important. An example of local issue which is ITN notable is election of heads of state and heads of government but this is the issue regarding the head of local government. If the story evolves in the sense that somehow US President-elect is involved in some of the charges it would be different but as it is now it's just an arrest. On the other hand conviction of a head of government, in today's news Macedonian, is ITN notable I think.--Avala (talk) 21:23, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In the U.S. federal system, a governor is not comparable to a local official like a mayor. A state is a constitutional entity like the member states of the EU. Thus, as I state below, the arrest of the governor of Illinois would be like the arrest of the president of Greece. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 23:11, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

So you're trying to convince me that Anti-police riots in Greece, or Lewis Hamilton winning F1 is more important than the Blagojevich fraud? You gotta be kidding. --bender235 (talk) 15:18, 10 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The article update in Bučkovski case is too short at the moment. Depends how it develops, I may support inclusion. --Tone 22:02, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Extended Bučkovski article with section on conviction.--Avala (talk) 22:24, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Weak support If this was just another Eliot Spitzer style scandal, I would agree that it doesn't belong on the main page. However, the accusations here state that Blago was offering a US Senate seat to the highest bidder. That's not just a state matter, that's a national matter. Consequently, its receiving main page coverage in international outlets such as BBC and Al-Jazeera. I'd call that notable enough based on the current guidelines, though I'll agree its probably not THE most notable thing happening out there. Also, I might add, ITN is not a competition. If both this story and the Macedonian story are notable, updated, and referenced, they should both go up. Teemu08 (talk) 22:05, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Its exactly that - a national matter, not an international matter. Just because it is being covered by international news media at this point is irrelevant. There are absolutely no international implications as of yet and as such cannot be considered ITN worthy --Daviessimo (talk) 22:28, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It is absurd to claim that everything on ITN has had international implications. Honestly, what are the international implications of the riots in Athens? Not much. But it's a story of global interest and therefore goes up. The arrest of a sitting state governor (basically equivalent to the president of Greece, an EU member state, being arrested) for trying to sell a Senate seat is mind-blowing news, and readers will be happy to be directed to more background information on the topic. Support. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 23:09, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Mwalcoff sorry but I stopped reading at the part when you say that the Governor of a US state is "basically equivalent to the president of Greece". EU is not a country, it's like NAFTA. --Avala (talk) 23:38, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The EU has a parliament, an executive and is responsible for hundreds of regulations that affect the daily lives of Europeans. It is far similar to a federation than it is to a run-of-the-mill intergovernmental organization.
I don't see how the Greek riots or Canadian political stories are international. Are you suggesting that they be taken down? -CWY2190(talk • contributions) 00:48, 10 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"Honestly, what are the international implications of the riots in Athens? Not much. But it's a story of global interest and therefore goes up."

Exactly. I've personally noticed a very biased stance against items regarding U.S. related news. I'm glad that Wiki tries it's best to be international, but we still need to include news items out of the U.S.JanderVK (talk) 03:50, 10 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Both the Obama connections and the national scope of this event make it notable. This is front page news on the websites of The Times, the BBC, and the Australian. Chardish (talk) 01:17, 10 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • While shocking and clearly of international interest (as noted above) we need to remember that this was just an arrest so far. I think we can at least wait for an indictment and could even wait for impeachment or resignation. In short, there is plenty more Main Page worthy news related to this guy in the pipeline; we might as well wait for something more substantial (I vote for impeachment/resignation). His article and related articles will also likely be in much better shape by then. Remember - we are not a news service, but an encyclopedia. We can wait. --mav (talk) 02:21, 10 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The Greek riots spread outside of the country (plus they've affected tens of thousands of people) and the Canadian parliamentary dispute is an unprecedented event of huge national importance. Meanwhile, as has been said before, corruption in someone's government isn't very rare at all. Sure, it may be a sitting US senator, but he was only arrested, and his only claim to fame is being connected to Obama. Are we going to start publishing tabloid news? "Obama-related senator is evil"? Of course, this is all POV. From a NPOV I'd have to say the incident has some notability but there hasn't been enough development in the story yet. Master of Puppets Call me MoP! :D 07:05, 10 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
If you are going to bash the story, you should at least understand the story. He is the Governor of Illinois, not a senator. He has been arrested and charged with (among several other crimes) trying to sell an appointment to the US Senate in exchange for various kinds of bribes. See Rod_Blagojevich#Federal_arrest_on_corruption_charges. Dragons flight (talk) 07:28, 10 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, I knew he was the governor; somebody up there said Senator and I think I just mindlessly copied it down. Anyway, I've already said everything I can say on the situation; if it develops then maybe I can reconsider. Dunno 'bout everyone else. Master of Puppets Call me MoP! :D 07:56, 10 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed and I should point out that the Canadian parliamentary dispute does have vast international implications. If you think who leads a country with the 9th largest economy in the world at this time of international crisis doesn't have international implications you're living in fairy tale land. If the governor is convicted of trying to sell a Senate seat I may support this story but not at the current time. Nil Einne (talk) 08:30, 10 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Nil, if you think the Canadian election has "vast international implications," you're the one who is living in fairy tale land. Canada is now a minor player on the world scene, and the top two parties are close enough in ideology that there are no huge shifts in policy as a result of a change of power (e.g., the Liberals aren't going to nationalize the oil industry or something). That's why Canadian elections receive little media coverage even in the neighboring country, unlike British, Israeli and Mexican elections. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 00:39, 11 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It doesn't matter which media have the story on their websites or what country the news comes from, in order to go up any item has to be encyclopaedic. The person involved is not well known enough to warrant going up automatically (I suspect many in the US outside of Illinois have never heard of him let alone outside America). The actual event (i.e an arrest of politician) is nothing new and these things go on all the time, again insufficient to warrant going up. Now unless something changes (such as him being charged and prosecuted or it leading to a much higher profile politician being arrested) this lacks the value to go up. Comparing this to the Canada and Greece strories is silly. In Canada its unlikely the current PM will last much longer and in Greece today their will be a general strike in protest of the police and government, which means millions of workers downing tools affecting any country that Greece exports too (and thats not even mentioning the numerous protests that occured outside the Greek embassies in other countries). --Daviessimo (talk) 08:52, 10 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
He was charged, and as a rule of thumb the number of US politicians "much higher" than a governor could probably be counted on one hand. Oh, and to Nil, the economy of Illinois is larger than all but 17 countries on Earth. So while Canada's economy is more important, I wouldn't say it is dramatically so. Dragons flight (talk) 12:50, 10 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Economy alone is not enough. Imagine if all such types of news from rest of the world start coming in. International impact is also important when the news is related to "a person" (Governor in this case not head of state). I really do not see any impact of Governor's arrest on other nations. --GPPande talk! 13:22, 10 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
If it were a head of a state of similarly sized country to Illinois (say Greece or Guatemala), I think the international impact would be similar (in both cases quite low), but I doubt we would be having an argument over whether he was "important" enough. Personally I think it smacks of reverse bias when people regard the leaders of major US states as less important than the leaders of minor nations. Since there are only 100 or so heads of government leading similarly sized populations (69 countries, 5 US states, 1 Canadian province, 5 Russian districts, ...), and they can't all get arrested, I would have no problem at all including "all such types of news from rest of the world". Dragons flight (talk) 13:50, 10 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well does Illinois have its own foreign policy? Does Gordon Brown or Nicolas Sarkozy visit Bush at the White house and then fly off and visit every state Governor as well? Does Illinois have its own army, or own currency? If it does then your right it should go up. If not it's silly to compare it with Sovereign states who have all these things. Size is not a marker of power, because if that were the case then India and China are four times more powerful than the US. --Daviessimo (talk) 14:48, 10 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It seems to me that Dragons flight problem is a bit like Mwalcoff's and he/she unfortunately is unable to understand that there is a fundamental difference between the subdivisions of one large country (be it the US, China, India or whatever). Daviessimo makes soem good point. Another good point is to take a look at G-20 major economies (which I remembered due to recent events). While it's true that some of the European countries in particular are left out, it does include several EU member state economies as well as the EU. Guess how many US states it includes? (Who know's Rod may even be like the incumbent President of his country and not know what the G20 is.) The UN Security Council has 2 EU member states as permanent members, currently 2 EU states as non-permanent members and one EU candidate as a non-permanent member. Guess how many US states, Indian states, or subdivisions of the PRC is includes? (And of course each EU member state is a UN member state. Guess whether any of the US states, Indian states of subdivisions of PRC are UN member states? Even Taiwan doesn't get to be a UN member state because it's part of China.) Seing the picture yet? To the chargrin of EU-sceptics, the EU may be advancing to a federation (although with recent developments some would argue they aren't) but they're clearly not there yet. Most of the world is apparently able to understand this, hence the evidence already presented (hence also why if a website asks you to fill in country, it doesn't list 'EU' as an opinion but does list, UK, France, Germany, Italy, Belgium..... US, India, China) Nil Einne (talk) 22:39, 10 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'll brush off any offense at the accusation that I can't understand the difference between a national and a subnational entity, but I will point out that Illinois is not like a county in England either. The U.S. is a federation of states, and the federal government has limited powers. The states pass most of the laws that affect the day-to-day lives of their citizens. In fact, most Americans only deal with the federal government face to face if they get Medicare or Social Security or have served in the military. Thus, U.S. states are more similar to unitary states like Greece than is the U.S. federal government, which is more like a super-EU. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 00:39, 11 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
That's a completely seperate issue. People were arguing the Canadian parliamentary dispute had no international impact. I pointed out that who leads the 9th largest (sovereign) economy in the world has clear international implications. Also I admit at the time I wrote that message I wasn't quite aware of the level of evidence against the Illinois governer, I'm no longer so strongly opposed but still far from convinced. Incidentally 18 states or territories of India have a larger population then Illinois. However if the Chief Minister of Chhattisgarh was arrested, I doubt anyone would have

even proposed the item. The same with say the Mayor of Tianjin (okay it's smaller but not by that much) or say whoever controls one of the larger prefecture-level cities of China. For that matter with the various subdivisions of China, we could probably come up with a whole lot of people who control some subdivision that has a greater population then say 10 million (okay this is smaller then the 12 million for Illinois, but there's no reason why 12 million is a magic number). Oh and Indonesia has four provinces larger then 10 million. Nil Einne (talk) 21:58, 10 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

My problem with this item is that the Rod Blagojevich federal fraud scandal article actually says very little about the arrest and charges. Most of it concentrates on the replacement of Obama in the senate. The very fact that there can be some problems in appointing another senator is not ITN material in any case. If the article can get improved to give more details about Blagojevich, maybe. Otherwise, I'd rather have this on if/when the verdict is given. --Tone 12:57, 10 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Rod Blagojevich federal fraud cases is a new wikipage. It will need time to grow. --PFHLai (talk) 18:00, 10 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The Blagojevich case was easily the most covered and most important news item for quite some time. It's silly not to have it featured the original decision to put it up was correct. Also some seem to have misunderstood what was the news item about, the "simple arrest of a politician" is not the news item here. That the FBI has him on tape trying to sell 1 out of the 100 seats in the United States senate to the highest bidder is the news. Put it up already. Hobartimus (talk) 22:18, 10 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I say wait for an indictment, imeachment, or resignation. Fishal (talk) 22:43, 10 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think this story should NOT go up even after impeachment just because the effect of it globally would still be little to none. I am sorry if i sound biased here but just because a news is covered a lot in US does not mean it should be up on ITN. It is covered a lot in US mainly becuase there is nothing better for CNN etc to talk about right now. US stories even without this story get the most attention. just an example would be Palin and Biden both had their own blurb up when they were CHOSEN not ELECTED. Canadian Liberal party chose Ignatieff as their leader but it did not go up (and i agree it really shouldnt). Just because it was important thing for US it went up and considering the whole election hoopla i wont argue against it either but fact remains the same that if same thing happens for another country it is overlooked a LOT more. This story in particular is arrest of someone who is not even a president which has happened in half the countries out there and happens regularly (many examples already stated above). So i strongly oppose this news on ITN. 99.237.101.160 (talk) 03:51, 11 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm new to this discussion so I'm not sure exactly what the criteria are, but it seems to me that virtually all English-speaking internet users cared about Obama's election to be U.S. President, and everyone who hears anything about this story will want to know whether or how Obama was involved. If we have a page we can link to on the home page to explain that to them, let's do it. Dave Smith (talk) 00:07, 11 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Wait, to say that Illinois = Greece in political terms is stretching it a bit. U.S. = Greece, but Illinois > the highest local government unit of Greece. It's like country (U.S., Greece) > highest local government unit in federal states (Illinois, West Bengal, Quintana Roo, etc.) > highest local government unit in unitary states (Greater Manchester, Guangdong, Pattani province, etc.) –Howard the Duck 04:48, 11 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This just seems to institute a small country bias. The same events interesting/affecting the same number of people spread across the same number of square miles will or will not receive coverage on ITN just because their local administrative division is closer to the United Nations than someone else, not because the event is any more relevant globally, historically, or encyclopedically. That seems silly - a pork recall in Illinois would never get on ITN, but since Ireland happens to be a small, sovereign country its administrative details get thrown onto ITN, even though Illinois is three times as populous.
So that seems like the wrong way to interpret the criteria. The criteria says "international importance OR international interest" which I take to mean of "global" importance rather than "happening near international boundaries in administrative divisions close to the United Nations," because otherwise we end up with an ITN talking about arbitrary Liliputian issues. And in its own right, the Blagojevich case clearly has global interest, probably far greater than Sark or Ireland. Equilibrium007 (talk) 17:07, 11 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The thing is people think of ITN = global importance alone. ITN is quite more liberal: items can be of international importance or interest (emphasis on "or"). Several non-American news media had picked up the story hence it is said to have international interest. –Howard the Duck 04:51, 12 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Heck even Barry Bonds' indictment made it to ITN. If this governor was Republican it would've made it. :D –Howard the Duck 06:04, 12 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah. The criteria need to be clearer, or changed entirely. The fact that Sark goes up twice while major scandals in large countries are suppressed perpetuates notion that Wikipedia is a pile of trivia not to be taken seriously (and obviously I don't feel that way); the fact that a pork recall in Ireland goes up without a fuss because it's a sovereign country, while the very same recall would be suppressed if Ireland were a member of a federation is just...ridiculous on its face.
Just off the top of my head, a better solution would be to say "Stories on ITN must be newsworthy and important globally or regionally. ITN should reflect a global perspective, and as a rule of thumb no more than one or two stories per region should appear on ITN at any one time." That would seem way better than the present solution, presenting regional diversity, reflecting historic, relevant stories even if they're not international, counteracting to some extent systemic bias in favor of US/European media, and also managing it so that there isn't an overflow of stories. It would showcase a balanced, interesting, and relevant selection of stories on Wikipedia rather than an arbitrary handful of stories that are "international" but not terribly relevant.
But even if that weren't adopted, frankly there's enough space on ITN for Blagojevich anyway - two of the stories, I think, have no right to be up there in the first place; another two of the stories - Patriarch Alexy II of Russia and the December 2008 Peshawar bombing - happened a week ago and the international news cycle has passed them by. Now, it's probably passed Blagojevich by this time, too, but I still think it should have gone up there when it was a live issue. For the future, these bizarre criteria need to be clarified or changed. Equilibrium007 (talk) 18:19, 12 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Sounds like a sensible set of standards, Equilibrium. You should suggest them somewhere where they'll be seen. Fishal (talk) 14:29, 13 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
If you read the article the Irish prok recall has affect at least 25 nations whom it supplies. Thats not just interest that is international implications. As for the Sark story that has gone up for encyclopaedic reasons as it is the last territory in Europe to move from Feudalism to democracy. In the case of the Illinois governor international interest cannot be claimed just because BBC or Le monde report the story because they are international news media and have a duty to do so. A better indication is that in Europe all news reports regarding this have focussed on Obama and not on Blagojevich. As such all international interest is associated with the president elect and is trivial at best. There is no 'real' interest in what he has supposedly done. As for the balance you suggest there is already a balance in existence here, which is achieved through concensus. Now in the case of this story the general concensus was it shouldn't go up, therefore it didn't. Using a weighted system as you suggest wouldn't work because there would be a definative bias towards large powerful nations. For example a couple of months ago Iceland's whole economy was on the verge of bankruptcy, yet the figures were actually quite small (only a couple of billion). Many major cities and in fact some companies in the US are likely to have economies bigger than that of Iceland but that doesn't mean they are comparable. As a result news items have to be judged case by case and that is why consensus is the agreed method of deciding which stories go up and which don't. --Daviessimo (talk) 00:51, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It doesn't matter on which between international importance or interest is more important: as long as either of the two is satisfied it can be considered. And one way of determining interest in the English Wikipedia is the number of English-language media reporting the event (with Wikipedia's policy of citing references, this is the equivalent @ ITN: more media reporting = more international interest). Now I think only the UK is the English speaking country in Europe so I used the BBC. CNN International (also based in the UK) also reported it a while back. That's why elections large and small make it to ITN: they are always reported by news media with great interest. (Full disclosure: I haven't seen how the BBC and CNN International treated the Illinois governor story. I don't know if it were in-depth reports or in passing as what the Beeb did with the Switzerland story.) Same for U.S. sports: they are always reported in international news media despite the perception that they are not followed elsewhere (especially for the Super Bowl, although it has quite a following in Canada and Mexico). –Howard the Duck 05:32, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
There's only one problem with that. The way BBC's 'international' news coverage works is that it reports regional news as an international service. So if you take the BBC website, it makes and assumption that non-British english speakers will use the website and thus feals it has to provide some form of regional news for these people otherwise they are not likely to visit. As such on the world news tab what is actually shown is regional news stories for the international community. The only way you can judge whether the story is of international interest in Europe and more specifically the UK is whether it makes it onto the BBC News home page, which is targetted at the British audience and not whether the story is reported by the BBC more generally. Now if the BBC service you receive is world service then that is completely different from the BBC N ews here in the UK so again cannot be used as a marker of the interest in stories in the UK. --Daviessimo (talk) 09:42, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I don't quite understand but the BBC News website lets you choose what edition to use -- the UK or International (I myself use international). For most part, in cases of determining international interest, the Beeb is used to determine which items have international interest if they appear prominently in the BBC News homepage, of course with concurrence with other news outlets. –Howard the Duck 10:05, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yes your right 'if the appear on the BBC news homepage', which is by default the 'British' homepage (as illustrated by the fact that most stories on it are about the UK). This item didn't make it to the news homepage, but the FBI fraud case above (Dec 13th I think) did. That is why I felt this wasn't noteworthy because whilst the BBC reported it, it only made it the the world news page not the home page. Now with the FBI case the BBC saw it as significant enough to bring directly to the attention of UK readers. --Daviessimo (talk) 17:38, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think it depends on your IP: I just went there and the international version was the default. –Howard the Duck 02:11, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think enough people dislike the current criteria to warrant a discussion about it (and Fishal mentioned that I should bring up my suggestion somewhere where they'd be seen), so...where would such a discussion take place? The criteria talk page? The death criteria get a page of their own, so I'm not sure. Equilibrium007 (talk) 18:26, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

December 8

December 8, 2008 (2008-12-08) (Monday)

ITN candidates for December 8

I don't think this has the notability, how about we wait until Mohammed is sentenced. SpencerT♦C 02:38, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'd like to hear more opinions on this — it certainly seems more significant than the IWF Wikipedia block, which made it to ITN briefly. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 05:19, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Only really noteworthy within the US, IMO. Though we have covered similar cases in the past... Master of Puppets Call me MoP! :D 05:27, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'd dispute the suggestion that this is only news in the US. In addition to the links provided above to BBC News, Le Monde, Xinhua News Agency and Al-Jazeera (and note that this was on the front page of all those news sources' websites), I'd suspect that it's significant news throughout the Islamic world. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 06:00, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Just because international news sources have reported it doesn't necessarily mean it is internationally significant. You're probably right about the Islamic-world repercussions; I'll check Al-Jazeera and such. Master of Puppets Call me MoP! :D 06:03, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The top three stories on front page of Al Jazeera English right now: "Greece riots rage for third day", "US guards charged over Iraq deaths" (Blackwater case), "9/11 suspects ask to 'plead guilty' " (with the pic of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, unshaven and unkempt at the time of his capture). Al Jazeera Arabic has different pictures, but one of the three in rotation is an artist's rendering of the Guantanamo courtroom. Al Arabiya English leads with the Blackwater story, and KSM & co. are #2. Based on pictures, I gather that Al Arabiya in Arabic is leading with a story about pilgrims in Mecca for Eid al-Adha; second is a story about the riots in Greece, and third is KSM. The story is also linked from the front page of The News of Pakistan. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 07:23, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I support Spencer's idea above to wait till sentence is declared. Agree to MoP's argument that being on all news website is not noteworthy. WP has it's own set of guidelines. --GPPande talk! 09:04, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
My point was not that the story was present on international news websites, but that it was prominent on international news websites — that is, they all treated it as a major world event. But I'll bow to the apparent consensus on this item. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 17:42, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]


This isn't the "start" of internet censorship, it's just the first time such censorship been applied to such a high profile website. Secondly, the prevention of UK IPs being able to edit is collateral damage that the IWF didn't directly cause. Don't get me wrong, I'm very pissed off about this and I think it has potential as an ITN story if it picks up a head of steam in mainstream media, but the wording would have to be more based in fact than this. Hammer Raccoon (talk) 17:11, 8 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Plus this isn't 'censorship' per se. Banning clockwork orange was censorship - not letting ISP's access a url which shows a picture of a topless 10 year old girl is a much more complicated case relating to a topic that is particularly sensitive in the UK. --Daviessimo (talk) 17:26, 8 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
To not let the story on the main page because someone might think its bad taste is not a reason not to put it there. If WMF does not censor, then censorship should not be discussed. The point should be how newsworthy it is. See Wikinews for story examples: British ISPs restrict access to Wikipedia amid child pornography allegations, Wikimedia, IWF respond to block of Wikipedia over child pornography allegations. DragonFire1024 (talk) 18:43, 8 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This story has become huge in the UK, where a quarter of the English Wikipedia's edits come from. Here's an index of the extensive press coverage so far that's being kept up to date, you can see the story has been picked up by national newspapers, TV channels and radio stations in very high-profile positions. The traffic for the page concerned reached 126,000 pageviews yesterday - as a lot of visitors to the site will now be looking for information on this event it would make sense to feature this on ITN, possibly linked to Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/2008_IWF_action, or the Wikimedia press release. PretzelsTalk! 18:53, 8 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The number of news agencies reporting something isn't necessarily the best method of determining eligibility for ITN. For instance just because the BBC, Telegraph and Times all reported on the discovery of the worlds heaviest potato, it doesn't mean it should go on ITN. On none of the websites I've just mentioned is the Wikipedia story very prominent either. Hammer Raccoon (talk) 19:24, 8 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Do we actually have an article about this censorship? An article is a prerequisite for ITN debate. --Tone 19:47, 8 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. At Virgin Killer#Internet censorship --InfantGorilla (talk) 21:12, 8 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
There is a small para in Internet censorship in the United Kingdom. However the problem is if you put this up how do you remain neutral on the issue. Everyone is saying the IWF are censoring Wiki but in truth they are merely following guidelines laid down in British law (regarding explicit images and websites). I'm pretty certain the image has been on wiki for a long time prior to this without the IWF blocking so why is everyone saying they have done it now. All they have done is responded to complaints made regarding the image, applying the same rules as all other websites are marked on. The comparissons with China or Iran simply serve to show how much the whole thing has been blown out of proportion. Being blocked from seeing truthful information about the outside world and having access to an image of a naked 10 year old girl are not the same thing --Daviessimo (talk) 20:52, 8 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I made a start to an article in my Sandbox. It mainly quotes and stuff to work into prose but if anyone wants to add things feel free. Rambo's Revenge (talk) 22:26, 8 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
There is now an article at IWF block of Wikipedia. Gwinva (talk) 01:02, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The Internet Watch Foundation restricts access to Wikipedia over a controversial image in accordance with British law.
How does that sound as a headline? The article is post-worthy, we just need a good blurb. Master of Puppets Call me MoP! :D 02:06, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm going to have to support. From WP:ITNMP: ...editor may write an in-depth update on a topic normally considered marginal, thus convincing commentors that it is deserving of inclusion. I feel this fits in this case, and also, this is being listed on the front of new.google.com as well. It doesn't appear to be just UK interest. SpencerT♦C 02:37, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Except it's not in "accordance with British law": that is part of the furore, that a small charitable organisation are making judgements on what British law might "potentially" rule. The album is legally on sale in the UK with that cover. Moreover, the IWF have no legal or governmental authority, and have no power (on their own) to restrict access. Gwinva (talk) 02:49, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
How about: "Following a blacklisting by the Internet Watch Foundation, access to Wikipedia is restricted in the UK" Gwinva (talk) 03:05, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I can agree with that. Including as "Following a blacklisting by the Internet Watch Foundation, access to Wikipedia is restricted in the United Kingdom." Master of Puppets Call me MoP! :D 04:08, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Changed blurb to: "Following a blacklisting by the Internet Watch Foundation, access to Wikipedia is partially restricted in the United Kingdom." Added "partially" because it sounded like all of Wikipedia had been restricted (or maybe that's just me; if it is, please do tell me and we'll see about changing it back). Master of Puppets Call me MoP! :D 04:18, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That's neater. Gwinva (talk) 04:25, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Still sounds like they've disabled access to all of Wikipedia, though. "Access to Wikipedia is partially restricted in the United Kingdom due to blacklisting by the Internet Watch Foundation."? Master of Puppets Call me MoP! :D 04:44, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"Restricted" means there's still some access, not disabled, not blocked. The word "partially" is unnecessary. (Restricted = Partially blocked.) --199.71.174.100 (talk) 05:03, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This doesn't meet the criteria for inclusion and should be removed, with the Zimbabwe health crisis story restored. Daniel (talk) 05:06, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. --MZMcBride (talk) 05:07, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Removed. Lets find a real story. Prodego talk 05:08, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
How is this not a "real" story? Significant and not only so in Britain, lots of major news sources reporting it; what's missing? Master of Puppets Call me MoP! :D 05:09, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
More stories get more significant news coverage than this; we're just focusing on this one. Every EPL game gets more coverage, the recent fighter pilot crash gets more coverage than this, etc. etc., but that doesn't mean they're fit for inclusion. Daniel (talk) 05:13, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I've got to agree with Daniel on this — this story is not significant enough to merit inclusion. It looks like we're tooting our own horn. I'd say that the guilty plea of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed (above) is more noteworthy: it's front page material, while the IWF block of Wikipedia would be lucky to make it on page A10. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 05:17, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Those aren't as internationally important, however. The IWF block is affecting a huge amount of people, while (just taking those examples) the Shiekh Mohammed guilty plea isn't really of much interest outside the US and the fighter jet caused three casualties (a miniscule number in terms of ITN coverage). Master of Puppets Call me MoP! :D 05:26, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The IWF story is fairly international (275 news articles), with knock-on effects. See Sydney Morning Herald's report that it's impacted Labor's plans to introduce internet censorship in Australia. Or WP's growing list of foreign-language reports. Gwinva (talk) 06:14, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
But again the problem is the blurb is riddled with bias and gives a miss leading impression. Three crucial factors have to be considered:
(1) According to the IWF "the image could potentially contravene the Protection of Children Act 1978". Thus The IWF are simply acting in accordance with British law (As with all instances these things are judged case by case so there is no definitive way of proving that this acutally breaks the law as of yet)
(2) This is not direct censorship. The IWF have added the site to a blacklist but that doesn't mean that the ISP's have to block it. It is their choice to do so. If AOL or Virgin Media decided tomorrow to unblock the site they could. Thus the IWF are not censorring - they are merely pointing out url that could contravene British law
(3) The problems caused to anonymous IP's is collateral damage, but again is caused by the ISP's and the way they are dealing with the issue
The nominated blurbs provide the reader with an untrue account of what is going on and I'm pretty certain contravene Wiki's own guidelines on neutrality. --Daviessimo (talk) 08:20, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, my understanding is that the ISPs working with the IWF are contractually obligated to filter the entire list without being selective. In other words, the ISPs do have to block it at least as long as they are working with the IWF at all. Given that context, I would say it is correct that the IWF is responsible for the censorship, and it is not really the ISPs "choice". Dragons flight (talk) 11:23, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well even if that is the case the ISP's are not legally obliged to work with the IWF. What I'm trying to say is that this is not complete censorship like that which goes on in Iran and China (5% of Brits who are with other ISP's not following the IWF blacklist still have access to the content, the problem is the majority of ISP's do work with them). Anyway I believe it is a moot point because I concur that Wiki related articles shouldn't be on ITN. --Daviessimo (talk) 11:45, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
They are legally obliged to filter, however. Back in 1996, the UK authorities declared their position that ISPs could be held criminally responsible if illegal materials are transferred over their networks. At the time an agreement was reached not to pursue prosecution as long as the ISPs used some active filtering service (and took other related steps), and the IWF was created to fulfill the role of providing the filter. It is hardly surprising that most ISPs signed on to the IWF rather than take on the burden and responsibility of monitoring themselves. Dragons flight (talk) 12:48, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
That doesn't mean they are legally obliged to filter. It just means that if they don't filter and illegal material is transferred over the network, they could get into deep shit. However if they don't filter they can't be prosecuted for not filtering if no illegal material is transferred over their network. Also AFAIK, it's still untested in a court of law. So whether ISPs are even responsible if illegal material is transferred over their network is unclear. As I understand it, the government has made it clear they will legislate if they consider it necessary to force regulation but as long as they're satisfied self-regulation is working they'll let things stand. This is quite common in many areas in many parts of the world but it doesn't change the fact there isn't actually any legal requirement at the current time Nil Einne (talk) 08:20, 10 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Notwithstanding the problem of agreeing on a suitable blurb, I support the inclusion of this item. I do not think it is appropriate only to consider what are the biggest news stories in international media. We do have editorial discretion and we frequently apply it to feature stories from different subject areas that are deemed to qualify as major international news. __meco (talk) 10:15, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Personally, I feel ITN should never be used for Wikipedia related news. It's too self-serving. Wikinews covers it and I am okay with that, but let's not start using the main page to highlight stories about ourselves. Dragons flight (talk) 11:16, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
After some thinking, I second that. ITN should be used for not-WP related news. --Tone 11:18, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Why not? If it meets ITN standards then it should go up, regardless of whether about us or not. Of course, that may not apply here, but in other cases... Master of Puppets Call me MoP! :D 07:05, 10 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The problem is that this news is already marginal as it is. For wikipedians, it may seem like a big deal but even for most Brits I suspect it's hardly even close to the biggest thing on their minds. This may have received some international attention, but as someone pointed out so does big potatoes [5] [6]. A marginal story which receives limited international attention is still not an ITN item Nil Einne (talk) 08:14, 10 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Pointless now anyway as IWF have reversed the decision (only serving to prove how much the whole thing was blown out of proportion) - personally in future we should have a rule that no wiki related news goes on ITN. Their is no way standard rules can be applied, not least because wiki can't be neutral on the issue (which is a vital prerequisite) --Daviessimo (talk) 13:37, 10 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

December 7

December 7, 2008 (2008-12-07) (Sunday)

ITN candidates for December 7

  • In relation to the food recall mentioned below on the 6th, Northern Ireland has now warned its people not to eat pork due to nine farms being affected and Italy has just been named on RTÉ News as the country to notice a problem and the country that recommended the 1 September date. So the facts now stand at three countries being very firmly involved. --➨Candlewicke  :) Sign/Talk 18:23, 7 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Crisis? What crisis? "2008 Irish pork crisis" may need a re-naming. So far, it's just a food recall. --PFHLai (talk) 20:25, 7 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, I accept that. That was just a quick solution for starting the article and I've since heard it described as such but yeah, I see what you mean. --➨Candlewicke  :) Sign/Talk 20:52, 7 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Although I have just now heard a television reporter refer to it as a "crisis" twice in the space of a matter of seconds, i.e. "the crisis" and "this crisis". Obviously we're supposed to be neutral but at the same time aren't we supposed to go with what the sitaution is being described as by sources or the media, etc? --➨Candlewicke  :) Sign/Talk 21:13, 7 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This has quite a big impact. Issues with the article should be fixed first, however. And I see some nonsense images in the article. --Tone 21:40, 7 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Ireland's chief vet has suggested that contaminated meat may have been exported to up to 25 countries. I suspect if this is confirmed many other countries will soon follow the UK lead withdrawing Irish pork from sale (particularly Central and Eastern Europe which are quite large export markets) --Daviessimo (talk) 07:20, 8 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This recall should have some big impacts, but the article doesn't say much on this. The "Effects" section actually was a description of the Irish pork industry and I've re-named this section as "the Irish pork industry" to reflect this for now. How many kilo-tonnes of Irish pork have been/will be destroyed? Is this the "largest food recall in Ireland since 19XX"? You may want something like these in the ITN headline to point out the gravity of the situation. Right now, the wikipage says Deputy Chief Executive of the FSA Alan Reilly described it as just "a precautionary measure". --PFHLai (talk) 11:48, 8 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Countries as far away as Singapore, Japan and Korea are banning the importing of Irish pork. That's international significance. Irish pork producers could be forced to destroy 100,000 pigs and are facing a 100 million-euro ($128 million) bill to recall all pork products. That's the impact to the Irish economy. This seems to be an ITN-type story, but the article needs more.... at least some updates/more info on the impacts, and explain why this is a "crisis". Do I have a cache problem again? I don't see it. --PFHLai (talk) 17:29, 8 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Can I get some assistance? I took a wikibreak but I've returned to help fix this. --➨Candlewicke  :) Sign/Talk 21:10, 8 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Better now? A revised headline perhaps (I constructed the other one about half an hour after it was announced). --➨Candlewicke  :) Sign/Talk 21:38, 8 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Plus the article needs a tidy and a resolution to the 'neutrality' issue if is to have any chance --Daviessimo (talk) 20:59, 7 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
First the article needs a cleanup, then I'll support this one. --Tone 21:40, 7 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Moved to 2008 Athens rioting, cleaned up, cited. Support. Master of Puppets Call me MoP! :D 09:02, 8 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I see that it's now back as 2008 Greek riots. The rioting has spread across the country. --PFHLai (talk) 11:28, 8 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Posted. --Tone 11:33, 8 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

December 6

December 6, 2008 (2008-12-06) (Saturday)

ITN candidates for December 6

Good update, unsure of the notability. SpencerT♦C 01:36, 7 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not precisely sure when you saw it but I have recently added a BBC ref which will hopefully place its notability in a clearer light. Just to let it be known in case it was missed. --➨Candlewicke  :) Sign/Talk 02:05, 7 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Reports now from four English-speaking countries, Ireland (obviously), the UK, Australia and the US. Plus the realisation that is much more massive than I could have realised; it affects several countries - the aforementioned four plus Germany, France and Italy, as well as Eastern Europe, Russia and China. I think (in my own unbiased way) that this really ought to be on the Main Page - pronto. --➨Candlewicke  :) Sign/Talk 04:03, 7 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Actually from what I understand we don't know who it affects yet other then Ireland. Ireland export pork to those countries, but whether any of the contaminated pork has been exported is unclear. Of course, some of them may withdraw Irish pork even if it is not part of the contaminated batch but that doesn't seem to have happened yet. However it does appear to be a very significant problem in Ireland with potential international implicants so would support it for that reason. N.B. I'm going solely by the article, since that's what we should be going by. Nil Einne (talk) 08:15, 7 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well given that the recall applies to pork stocks dating back to Sept 1, which is 3 months ago I'm pretty certain this pork will be all over the world by now so I support. --Daviessimo (talk) 08:50, 7 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
That will likely depend in what form, when, and how the pork is exported. For example China only received less then 1% of the exported pork in 2007. It's easily possible little or none of the meat has made it into China yet. Of particular note, the UK FSA have said they're not concerned at the moment, and the UK received of nearly of the exported pork in 2007. Also although the recall was for all pork, according to the article only certain farms were affected. (The recall may have been general, but that's not uncommon since it can be difficult to distinguish which meat came from which farm. On the other hand, it may be easier to know if any of the meat from the farms was exported. This is not an assumption but a possibility which is significant since you were claim the meat must have been exported whereas I'm saying, we still don't know.) Making assumptions on ITN is always a bad idea, it's far better to go by the facts as they stand. Even more so since there is absolutely no need to make assumptions. Nil Einne (talk) 09:36, 7 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well the facts as they stand are a country has withdrawn all of its pork products from within a three month period and there are possible implications for vast sections of the wider world. The story is "in the news" everywhere else across the world today. --➨Candlewicke  :) Sign/Talk 11:55, 7 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Please see also discussion above in #ITN candidates for December 7. Thanks. --PFHLai (talk) 17:40, 8 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Updated article: The Dream Match. –Howard the Duck 04:56, 7 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Surely it is only notable if it is for the title, which based upon the article this doesn't seem to be. As such I'm afraid I don't see the notability --Daviessimo (talk) 08:50, 7 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Surely the Ring Magazine pound for pound rankings doesn't count? Pacquiao is currently #1, and OLDH, won at the Latin Grammys (LOL).
Or are going to wait for Ricky Hatton to make this "notable"? –Howard the Duck 16:22, 7 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
P.S. As proof of its notability, it is still on the Yahoo! Sports home page several hours after the fight, considering BCS season and the fact that it is a non-title bout. They don't even do that for many title bouts. –Howard the Duck 16:32, 7 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Ha ha. Don't let your opinions stop you stereotyping me (or was it that I actually stated this isn't notable because their wasn't a Brit in it?). It doesn't matter who is involved, how much money it makes or anything else all I wanted to know is what was the encyclopaedic, oops I mean encyclopedic (sorry me being Brito-centric again), value? --Daviessimo (talk) 20:21, 7 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Second biggest gate revenue = encyclopedic. But I can wait for the Hatton fight to make Euros happy. –Howard the Duck 01:26, 8 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Just second, eh?.... Encyclopedic? Do you have a list comparable to List of highest-grossing films? I don't think this "biggest gate revenue" record is something too many people care about. Non-title fights are just for show and have little significance beyond stuffing up the promoters wallet. Wait for Oscar's official retirement announcement. That, you might have a case. --PFHLai (talk) 04:42, 8 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Don't tell me the championship bout of the flyweight division has more chance to get in ITN. That's moronic. The fact that this has been extensively covered elsewhere means it is ITN-legit. The fact that it is a non-championship match is beside the point, since it was the bout of the year, as exemplified by homepage coverage on Y!Sports and ESPN and several other sporting websites. Even championship boxing matches didn't get that. –Howard the Duck 01:28, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
TV stations and websites need new content every day. They use the best available that day. ITN doesn't work that way. --PFHLai (talk) 05:25, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
My point is boxing matches are almost never make it to the homepages of these websites. Never. They're overshadowed by the North American sports leagues. –Howard the Duck 06:04, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Also, it's quite senseless to wait for OLDH's retirement announcement. We posted Obama's nomination right when he won it, not at the convention, remember? –Howard the Duck 01:38, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I meant if ODLH had retired, you might have a better story and a better case for an ITN candidate. --PFHLai (talk) 05:25, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think this needs OLDH's retirement to be notable. –Howard the Duck 06:04, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This won't be considered for ITN while Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The Dream Match is still on. --PFHLai (talk) 20:32, 7 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
What keeps you using either Oscar De La Hoya or Manny Pacquiao? By the way, the way the AFD it is going to be kept anyway. –Howard the Duck 01:26, 8 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Howard, your post at 04:56, 7 December 2008 (UTC) indicated that the updated article was The Dream Match, not Oscar De La Hoya nor Manny Pacquiao. BTW, The Dream Match, an article supposedly about the fight, has merely two sentences in the "The fight" section actually describing the fight. It's hardly good enough for ITN. --PFHLai (talk) 04:42, 8 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The OLDH article has a longer update. I'll incorporate that to all three. –Howard the Duck 06:36, 8 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. But if you want The Dream Match bolded in the ITN headline, you still need the AfD to end first. (Typically, AfDs run for 5 days.) And there is still an issue with the "(in)significance of the bout". Good Luck. --PFHLai (talk) 11:09, 8 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
In any case I've update details already. And with the flurry of keep it should be ending soon.
Or wait for Hatton to satisfy the people from the other side of the pond. LOL. –Howard the Duck 12:16, 8 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
That's another fight for another day, and another chat on WP:ITN/C when the time comes. --PFHLai (talk) 17:36, 8 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
AFD has been withdrawn. Lots of extensive expansion. What more do you want? –Howard the Duck 01:24, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
More significance to the bout. --PFHLai (talk) 05:16, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Check out Pixelface's comment on the AFD. Probably this is more covered than the shootout proposed at the beginning of this section. –Howard the Duck 06:04, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Is the shootout getting on ITN? It doesn't look that way. I like your passion and enthusiasm on this, Howard. But realistically, neither the shootout nor the boxing show has much hope sticking on ITN even if it's added there. (See above discussions on other news items.) --PFHLai (talk) 12:48, 10 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I actually thought the shooting event would have made it since an admin was more than willing to add it if it weren't for yours truly slapping the article deservingly with a prod. –Howard the Duck 04:41, 11 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
P.S.: I don't think any boxing match has made it to ITN and stayed for a considerable amount of time. Unless it was before 2005 or something... –Howard the Duck 04:42, 11 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

December 5

December 5, 2008 (2008-12-05) (Friday)

ITN candidates for December 5

Alexiy II
Alexiy II
The death of Patriarch Alexey II of Russia is quite significant and should be on the front page. Esn (talk) 12:36, 5 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I am not sure if it meets WP:ITN/DC. If Consensus is reached then put it up on ITN. Also article needs little more updates before it can go up. --GPPande talk! 13:25, 5 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
As he died in office (and was active as he conducted a service at the Moscow Kremlin the day before he died), the article should qualify; the article has been updated today. --Hapsala (talk) 20:55, 5 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I support this, he died in office (so to speak), which lends credence to his notability for ITN. Random89 23:57, 5 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Considering that the Russian Orthodox Church has ~200 million adherents around the world, I would say that this is noteworthy enough, but that's just me... It's not quite as noteworthy as the Catholic Pope dying, but still. Esn (talk) 01:49, 6 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Patriarch_Alexey_II_of_Russia#Death needs more real text, not just a big quote. But support. SpencerT♦C 15:15, 6 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Going to post. SpencerT♦C 01:37, 7 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It's a delay. Maybe when it's launched, though. SpencerT♦C 15:15, 6 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support if expanded --Daviessimo (talk) 18:19, 5 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Expanded a bit. Anonymous101 (talk) 19:50, 5 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Also, the verb tense in the blurb should be changed, per ITN standers: '...province of Peshwar kills at least 35 people.' Random89 23:57, 5 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

December 4

December 4, 2008 (2008-12-04) (Thursday)

ITN candidates for December 4

-The second sentence on the Canadian item is really unnecessary; the first link is just to the same item as the bolded dispute, and the coalition (which did not have a chance to form) is, if not yet moot, at least on the back burner. Radagast (talk) 19:03, 4 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm also no expert, but from what I can see, a motion of no-confidence is a form of confidence vote, albeit one tabled by the opposition. The second sentence is indeed unnecessary, please look at WP:Errors where I have proposed an alternate wording. Also, this photo (cropped maybe) is a better image than the current one. Random89 20:42, 4 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]


  • Not sure exactly where to suggest this, but I think we should use this image of Michaëlle Jean, rather than the one of Harper. After all, it is her decision to prorogue parliament that is being reported. And on the political crisis page, we used to have an image of Harper as the lead, but users complained that using it was choosing sides. -- Scorpion0422 21:49, 4 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • The current wording of the last sentence won't make a lot of sense to a lot of people. How about, "The move was to avoid a confidence vote and the potential installation of a coalition government." -- Mwalcoff (talk) 00:00, 5 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

December 3

December 3, 2008 (2008-12-03) (Wednesday)

ITN candidates for December 3

December 2

December 2, 2008 (2008-12-02) (Tuesday)

ITN candidates for December 2

Does that cover the important points well enough, or do we need to mention the parties by name? Should we mention the end of the airport protests as well? —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 17:32, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I support this in principle, but the lead section of the article isn't up to date yet. And Is there more on the explosion mentioned above yet?--Peter cohen (talk) 17:40, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I've updated the article, including the PM's resignation. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 18:18, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Added. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 18:24, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Sad to know that even in these modern days basic diseases like cholera can affect an entire nation and it's neighbors. The outbreak began in August but latest figures and spread of disease to neighbors has made this significant. --GPPande talk! 14:47, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support - any outbreak of disease with this effect warrants going up --Daviessimo (talk) 17:27, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support. But is the style here to drop the "the" at the beginning or not?--Peter cohen (talk) 17:36, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
My inclination would be to include "the". —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 18:18, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Added. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 18:24, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

December 1

December 1, 2008 (2008-12-01) (Monday)

ITN candidates for December 1

See Nov.30th below. --199.71.174.100 (talk) 21:05, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'd support this, but the table isn't completely filled out. Master of Puppets Call me MoP! :D 05:16, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support if table is updated
Support once article is ready.--Peter cohen (talk) 17:44, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The results table in Romanian legislative election, 2008 is filled up alright, but we still don't know who will be forming the next government yet. Still too close to call. Negotiations are ongoing. ITN will probably have to wait till a coalition govt is announced. --PFHLai (talk) 16:20, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
When you say 'coalition government' are they actually in power? If yes I support. If they are not in power then they must have formed a coalition party in which case I fail to see the international significance as of yet (ie if they're not in power their actions will have no international effect) and do not support --Daviessimo (talk) 17:26, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
According to the first source, "The opposition plans to take down the government with a confidence vote next Monday", so if they succeed then, the event will be ITN worthy. MeekSaffron (talk) 17:40, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. Act on the news and not the speculation--Peter cohen (talk) 17:44, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed --Daviessimo (talk) 19:04, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with Tone, election result plus presidential and VP candidate noms are enough. No other countries elections get as much coverage as the US election --Daviessimo (talk) 17:26, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with Tone.--Peter cohen (talk) 17:44, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well normally we only do election results but I suppose the whole taking office thing here is more significant in Obama's case because at that point in time he will actually be the first black (or rather mixed race) president of the US (as opposed to now were, if he was killed next week, because he has yet to take office it would remain that there has never been a non-white US president) --Daviessimo (talk) 21:14, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think, if there is some significant event at the time he is inaugurated as President or he makes some significant declarations impacting world politics/economy/major deviation from Bush administration policies – then it deserves an ITN entry. A plain swearing in ceremony may raise eyebrows. Just my 2 cents. --GPPande talk! 09:29, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Or, if we want to cover the event on ITN, then the blurb should focus on "new team taking over White House" instead of just Obama – The President. That way, it would be less biased towards a single person. --GPPande talk! 09:48, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
That's what I was sorta thinking. However, to me it also depends on the update. Very high quality, somewhat lengthy or even a separate article would be a yes. SpencerT♦C 21:43, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep an eye on Presidential transition of Barack Obama. Pretty elaborate article which might see some high quality updates when Obama takes charge. --GPPande talk! 07:14, 4 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

November 30

November 30, 2008 (2008-11-30) (Sunday)

ITN candidates for November 30

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