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Wikipedia:Files for deletion/2007 October 29

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October 29

[edit]
Image:WP-GM-LOGO1 with logo.png (delete | talk | history | logs) - uploaded by And-Rew (notify | contribs).
Image:Arms-tameside-mbc.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs) - uploaded by HeraldicBot (notify | contribs).
Image:Arms-salford-city.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs) - uploaded by HeraldicBot (notify | contribs).
Image:Arms-rochdale-mbc.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs) - uploaded by HeraldicBot (notify | contribs).
Image:Arms-oldhammet.JPG (delete | talk | history | logs) - uploaded by Kevyinus (notify | contribs).
Image:Evp1.png (delete | talk | history | logs) - uploaded by Perfectblue97 (notify | contribs).
  • This image is an illustration which contravenes original research policy. Specifically: "Images that constitute original research in any other way are not allowed, such as a diagram of a hydrogen atom showing extra particles in the nucleus as theorized by the uploader." In other words, Perfectblue's sayso that something is an EVP is not allowed. The image is not verifiably claimed by any notable group. The axes are unlabeled and the rationale for why this would be EVP and not something else is totally absent. ScienceApologist 01:01, 29 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Disclaimer: Taking WP:NOR out of context without the consideration of the paragraphs before is not very Scientific (its like throwing out the substantiating evidence and simply proposing the theory alone) and highly suggestive of interrupting the normal editing patterns through violation of WP:POINT thus gaming the system in order to pursue a personal dispute between yourself an Martinphi now in Arbitration. All editors should take this into consideration. This discussion at least should be put on hold until the matters clear themselves up with Arbcom. --Northmeister 00:26, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Striking the above, in order to assume the best. I still don't like the timing of this deletion request but worse things have happened. Changed my 'vote' to delete below based on Jossi observations. --Northmeister 01:18, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Actually no, EVP was written in scare quotes, this is the same as writing so-called in front of it. It's a pretty obvious statement. Also, the image description explicitly stated that the image was created on the understanding that it had no scientific value. - perfectblue 20:52, 1 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The issue was never the "scientific value" of the image. It was also never about whether there were "scare quotes" or the phrase so-called. It was about it being your original research. ScienceApologist 20:55, 1 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete: Image claims to be nothing and something at the same time. Equivalent narratives would be termed editorialising, I fail to see how this is different. Would recommend it be replaced by a real EVP image ((if one exists), surely with all the publications on the subject, there is something? Shot info 07:12, 29 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete The image summary reads: 'A self generated image of "an EVP voice" and surrounding background noise. Released to all who want to use it on the understanding that the image itself has no scientific value and does not represent proof of anything.' Not only is it OR, because it describes itself as an image of something whose existence is in doubt and was, as far as I can tell, an original production by the uploader, but it then disingenuously denies being OR. Cardamon 07:34, 29 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • delete as unencyclopedic. dab (𒁳) 08:03, 29 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • An identical image is at Image:Evp2.png, and should probably also be considered under these deliberations. The uploader of both has discussed his rationale for uploading the second image here on his talk page. — BillC talk 19:17, 29 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I listed the other images below. Baegis 20:45, 29 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete: Non-encyclopedic and appears to violate even the wide latitude provided to images by WP:OR. Additionally, this appears to be a WP:COATRACK situation, where the image is a bit of an end-run around a highly controversial article and discussion ([1]). MastCell Talk 21:05, 29 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete While not taking back any of the reasoning below, I'll follow "consensus" on this matter, as it is not really an issue of NPOV or ATT, but merely an issue of a topical improvement to an article. I'd like to point out that the caption could simply have been changed to make no claims at all, and that any visualization of a voice would serve as an illustration of what EVP is supposed to look like. And that no claim was made in the actual article that the image was EVP. I would also like to note the timing of this deletion, and that ScienceApologist is currently attempting to get me banned by the ArbCom. So I think this image deletion was requested purely to make a point.

This image is a clear illustration. However, we could change the caption. Keep in accordance with WP:OR:

"Pictures have enjoyed a broad exception from this policy, in that Wikipedia editors are encouraged to take photographs or draw pictures or diagrams and upload them, releasing them under the GFDL or another free license, to illustrate articles. This is welcomed because images generally do not propose unpublished ideas or arguments, the core reason behind the NOR policy. Also, because of copyright law in a number of countries and its relationship to the work of building a free encyclopedia, there are relatively few publicly available images we can take and use. Wikipedia editors' pictures fill a needed role."
There are no claims made in the article for this image, except that it illustrates the subject matter of the article. Alternatively, change the caption summary on the image page to something everyone likes, or nothing. But there is no reason under policy for deletion. ——Martinphi Ψ Φ—— 21:33, 29 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The reason is quite simple--there is no basis for thinking it represents the subject matter of the article, or for that matter any subject matter in particular. A speechlike waveform out of context is not illustration of any thing, and we have only the assertion of its contributor that it represents even what he thinks is an example of EVP. DGG (talk) 21:48, 29 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, DGG, but in the context of the article a speechlike waveform becomes an illustration. That's all that's claimed. The image is similar to the non-OR image at the top of the EVP page. No one -at least in the article- is claiming that it is actually EVP- it is only claimed to be an illustration of what EVP might look like- were it to actually exist. Same as with the pic on the Will-o'-the-wisp page. It illustrates the article, nothing more. That's what the OR page allows in illustrative images. ——Martinphi Ψ Φ—— 00:28, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • KEEP Delete (after soliciting some advice from editor involved at WP:NOR page) Seems to me that NOR is being read wrongly and being used in an ongoing dispute thus violating WP:POINT in the process by said editors. The images themselves seem harmless enough, illustrate the paranormal topic, and show no indication of manipulation per say. There is presently an Arbcom involving the deletionist ScienceApologist. The image is indeed self-described by perfectblue as uploaded 'informing the reader' - and as this is not a science-related topic and clearly paranormal in nature, and as long as it is labeled as a 'suggested' or 'possible' EVP then the image does no harm and is not in violation of the spirit of the WP:NOR definition as it does not take on airs. If this deletion is allowed to stand then several images across Wikipedia, self-proclaimed and uploaded - that illustrate but do not pontificate about the subject would be erased into oblivion - doing more harm than good to Wikipedia in the process. Can a better image be found - I think so! But, that is not for here. I suggest a proper reading of WP:NOR be given - rather than taking a single sentence out of context and arguing from that. --Northmeister 00:15, 30 October 2007 (UTC) Concur with Jossi below after thinking over imgage itself, void of any other observations (regarding timing of deletion request and Arbcom case), I do stand corrected on my original observations about the policy and concur therein with ScienceApologist. --Northmeister 01:18, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. Obvious OR. If a similar image is available from a published source, it could be used, but not a user-generated image. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:40, 30 October 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Martinphi (talkcontribs) [reply]

Description changed - The above discussion has been restated as of this time stamp perfectblue 20:19, 1 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

New discussion, post descriptive change

As the creator of this image I have changed the description, it now no longer meets ANY deletion criteria for a public use image. I'd also like to point out that this is a catch 22 situation that gives Wikipedia a bad name.

According to Wikipedia regs I can't say that this is EVP because there is no scientific conformation that EVP exists, I can't say that it's NOT EVP because I don't have a third party source to say that it ISN'T a ghost on tape. I can't say that it resembles EVP because there is no scientific confirmation that EVP exists in order for this to resemble, and no scientific consensus on what an EVP might look like if it ever were confirmed to exist.

How silly is that, I can't even say that this is a perfectly explainable sound because I don't have a third party to explain it. It's just a recording of sound, when you play it it sounds like a man saying a something, I put it up to show the kind of sound result that a ghost hunter would call EVP if they were to record it. What more does anybody need?

I also can't rename it as there doesn't appear to be a rename function. Therefore for the purposes of WP:NOR the EVP mentioned in the name now (officially, as the creator of the image) stands for "Electronic visualization (recorded by) Perfectblue97".

This is a silly silly situation that never should have arisen. It's just a picture of a wave-form. That's not WP:OR.

perfectblue 20:19, 1 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I don't get it. The image is still original research. Just changing the caption doesn't make it less so. ScienceApologist 20:42, 1 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Now you're just reaching. By the definition you're using a picture of anything user generated would be WP:OR. Take a look at any wave-form in any published media and you will clearly see that that's what this is, and it's not claiming to be anything more, certainly not anything that would require verification to a third party. - perfectblue 21:06, 1 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'm confused, are you saying you want to incorporate this image into the article on waveforms? ScienceApologist 21:19, 1 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Image:Ahwaz-Map.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs) - uploaded by Hisham ibn Oamr Alharbi (notify | contribs).
Image:Mow.png (delete | talk | history | logs)
Image:MowDNA.png and Image:Cartoonmow.png
- uploaded by NeoNecronox (notify | contribs).
Image:PacoIraq1.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs) - uploaded by User25be (notify | contribs).
Image:Mikeindialantic.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs) - uploaded by Oceanbourne (notify | contribs).
Image:Tyfbanner.gif (delete | talk | history | logs) - uploaded by Soman (notify | contribs).
Image:Djzardonic.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs) - uploaded by Gorepriest (notify | contribs).
Image:JEMIII.JPG (delete | talk | history | logs) - uploaded by Slopigyo (notify | contribs).
Image:Coorg.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs) - uploaded by Adugani (notify | contribs).
Image:Sevag3.jpg.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs) - uploaded by Sevag.derderian (notify | contribs).
Image:For web.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs) - uploaded by Waqcku (notify | contribs).
Image:United States One Dollar Bill 2003.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs) - uploaded by Eztli (notify | contribs).
Image:P R Indepence Flag.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs) - uploaded by Marine 69-71 (notify | contribs).
Image:Xander face.JPG (delete | talk | history | logs) - uploaded by Xandergiles (notify | contribs).
Image:Deepbluey.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs) - uploaded by Fellinox (notify | contribs).
Image:World operators of Mi-8.png (delete | talk | history | logs) - uploaded by Sniperz11 (notify | contribs).

Additionally, there are no pages that link to this (apart from my user page). Thus, Deleting it will not affect any other pages. Sniperz11talk|edits 19:05, 29 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Image:Evp2.png (delete | talk | history | logs) - uploaded by Martinphi (notify | contribs).
Image:EVP_illustration.png (delete | talk | history | logs) - uploaded by Martinphi (notify | contribs).
  • Policy does not indicate that this image or the other one should be deleted. See caption of image [2] for more. See argument above. There is no intent to circumvent policy, only to try and address the concerns of editors. ——Martinphi Ψ Φ—— 21:30, 29 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Wait a second, you knew your other argument was going to lose so you decided to reupload the image? That seems dishonest to me, but it also means there's a strong precedent for deleting this image and any subsequent images identical to it (with or without caption) as OR. Speedy delete. Cumulus Clouds 01:17, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Image:Hs_129B-3.jpg (delete | talk | history | logs) - uploaded by Maury_Markowitz (notify | contribs).
It's definitely not the same aircraft. The former (the topic of this thread) was one of a small number of B-3 models with the BK7.5 cannon. That's the big honkin' pipe sticking out under the front of the nose. The later is a stock B-2 model (IIRC), and obviously lacks this equipment. Maury 01:11, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

So can I remove the tag? Or do you still feel it should go? I have no problem with a "free replacement request" tag BTW, but I believe there are no more B-3's. Maury 11:57, 31 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]