Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/Minnesota Mr. Basketball/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by Dabomb87 00:12, 19 September 2010 [1].

Minnesota Mr. Basketball

Featured list candidates/Minnesota Mr. Basketball/archive1

Nominator(s): ~EDDY ^{(talk/contribs/editor review)}~ 20:15, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured list because I think it meets all the FLC criteria. It is well-written and comprehensive, at least in my opinion. I'm relatively new to the FLC process, so if there is something wrong, just tell me. ~EDDY ^{(talk/contribs/editor review)}~ 20:15, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment—The links to Charlotte Hornets, Division I, Division II, and Kevin Lynch lead to dab pages, and the external link to http://www.mndaily.com/1996/10/09/kolander-enjoys-life-after-u-hoops is dead. Ucucha 20:18, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Fixed the dab pages, while I turned the dead link into "hard" form. ~EDDY ^{(talk/contribs/editor review)}~ 20:32, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment — player column not sorted properly; need to use {{sortname}}—Chris!_c/t 20:59, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm curious: why is this? 2010 NCAA Men's Basketball All-Americans passed FLC without having the sortname template. ~EDDY ^{(talk/contribs/editor review)}~ 21:27, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  - Actually, it used sortname template, too. But, names in non-sortable tables don't need sortname template.—Chris!_c/t 21:49, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    - You didn't answer my original question. Why should I go to all the work to do this? Is it in some policy that I don't know of? ~EDDY ^{(talk/contribs/editor review)}~ 22:06, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      - Because the names in the column don't sort by last name, which is incorrect when sorting alphabetically. There is no policy about this that I am aware of. But a featured list should get this right.—Chris!_c/t 22:50, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        Agreed. Sorting should be alphabetical by last name, as is standard with sortable featured lists. --Another Believer _(Talk) 15:49, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        I will add the sortname template, despite how pointless it seems. But, you are not suggesting I sort the list by last name? Because, the list is much better ordered in year form. ~EDDY ^{(talk/contribs/editor review)}~ 20:33, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        The table can still be ordered by year. There is no need to change that. But you need to use sortname templates for names, otherwise the name column will sort incorrectly after clicking the icon on top.—Chris!_c/t 21:03, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
~~Reference error needs fixing~~—Chris!_c/t 23:42, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support - I think it looks good now.—Chris!_c/t 18:33, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

~~Comments~~ Support

Resolved comments from Reywas92) 00:02, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

*First sentence: Is the basketball for only one boy?

- Added "(s)". Read the bottom of the paragraph. It mentions that twice the award was given to two people.. ~EDDY ^{(talk/contribs/editor review)}~ 21:27, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  - No, I mean that it should be boys' basketball. There are many boys involved so you need the plural possessive. Reywas92^Talk 00:16, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    - Done. ~EDDY ^{(talk/contribs/editor review)}~ 00:25, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Also needs an apostrophe in the third sentence.
- Done. ~EDDY ^{(talk/contribs/editor review)}~ 21:28, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The details about Boston College and WVU's coach seem irrelevant.
- Removed. ~EDDY ^{(talk/contribs/editor review)}~ 21:30, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It also seems irrelevant that Northeastern Illinois has dropped its athletic programs. This has nothing to do with the award.
- Removed. ~EDDY ^{(talk/contribs/editor review)}~ 21:34, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
References do not need to be repeated in the University or high school tables.
- Removed. ~EDDY ^{(talk/contribs/editor review)}~ 21:41, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Very nice overall. Reywas92^Talk 22:46, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from Jrcla2 (talk) 00:02, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

;Comments from Jrcla2

Lists descend from earliest to latest; ergo, 2010 should be at the bottom and 1975 at the top.
- Aww, shit. Okay, I fixed it. ~EDDY ^{(talk/contribs/editor review)}~ 22:11, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The Notes column should be unsortable.
- Fixed. ~EDDY ^{(talk/contribs/editor review)}~ 22:35, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The image of Peterson is not a good one to use. It shows him from the back while the true focus of the image – Kevin McHale shooting – is right in the center. I would take it out.
- I added a request at the graphics lab to crop Petersen from this. ~EDDY ^{(talk/contribs/editor review)}~ 23:01, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  - I'll wait and see how the image turns out before I yea or nay it, but I'm still skeptical that the image (cropped) of the back of his body is really all that usable. Jrcla2 (talk) 23:25, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    - I replaced the original Peterson image with a crop of it. Check it out. ~EDDY ^{(talk/contribs/editor review)}~ 13:35, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The following sentences need references attributed to them:
- "The first award winner was Gene Glynn, who attended Waseca High School in Waseca, Minnesota. He played for Mankato State University, now known as Minnesota State University."
  - Reffed. ~EDDY ^{(talk/contribs/editor review)}~ 23:10, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    - There's a cite error at the bottom. Jrcla2 (talk) 23:25, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      - Whoops! Fixed that. ~EDDY ^{(talk/contribs/editor review)}~ 00:15, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- "The current winner, Kevin Noreen, is the all-time leading scorer in Minnesota high school history, with 4,086 career points."
  - See below. ~EDDY ^{(talk/contribs/editor review)}~ 23:13, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    - See response below. Jrcla2 (talk) 23:25, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- "In his senior year at Minnesota Transitions School, Noreen posted averages of 38.6 points, 16.5 rebounds, 5.9 assists, 3.9 steals, and 3.2 blocks, while also having a 4.0 grade point average."
  - I don't think a ref is necessary here, as the one at the bottom of the paragraph should do. ~EDDY ^{(talk/contribs/editor review)}~ 23:13, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    - Disagree. I'd be fine with using that same reference after each of those statements, but they need to be cited. If someone read the sentence and wanted to know which ref it came from, they wouldn't necessarily look for the one at the end of the paragraph - they'd look for one located right at the end of the sentence. Jrcla2 (talk) 23:25, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      - Whatever, I reffed it. ~EDDY ^{(talk/contribs/editor review)}~ 00:18, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
When the acronym NBA is used in paragraph four, it needs to be spelled out like National Basketball Association (NBA) Draft because the term had never been clarified before. After that, it is fine to use "NBA".
- Done. ~EDDY ^{(talk/contribs/editor review)}~ 23:16, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

*Typo, sice → since

The word must have been taken out. Jrcla2 (talk) 23:25, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Jrcla2 (talk) 02:12, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

A few more things. I think the high school redlinks need to be removed. They clutter the page. I don't foresee anyone making all of those high school articles anytime soon or else I wouldn't care as much.
- I do not intend to remove all those redlinks. They encourage creation of articles, and frankly they don't bother me at all. If they bother you that much I could go around and create articles on them, but unless you will oppose this FLC I really don't feel like it. Yes, I am too lazy. :) ~EDDY ^{(talk/contribs/editor review)}~ 00:23, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The Notes column is pretty insufficient. If there is going to be a notes column, then IMO there shouldn't be a 25-no notes to 13-notes ratio. There's got to be at least one thing worth mentioning about most of these players in that column.
- I changed the notes column to NBA Draft. The other notes I compiled into a seperate notes section. ~EDDY ^{(talk/contribs/editor review)}~ 00:59, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
In 1981, it says that Redd Overton went on to an "unknown" junior college. I'm assuming that it's too difficult to track down, via internet resources, which school that was. I have no problem with not knowing which junior college he went to, but I think the word "unknown" needs to be removed because it is ambiguous as to why it's unknown and it doesn't further elucidate the fact that he went to junior college, which is really all that's pertinent in that note.

Jrcla2 (talk) 00:02, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

- Removed. ~EDDY ^{(talk/contribs/editor review)}~ 17:00, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support - All of my comments have been addressed. Jrcla2 (talk) 19:55, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved question from Jrcla2 (talk) 14:23, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

;Question

I want to see what other people think of this idea: Since there seems to be so much dead space next to the sections titled "Most winners by university" and "Most winners by high school", I propose that they be condensed into one section. The section header would something like ==Winners by school==, and then within that section it would be two columns. The left column would be titled By university and the right column would be titled By high school. This would condense the page and eliminate dead space without being impractical or aesthetically unappealing. Jrcla2 (talk) 00:53, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

As the author of the list, you should take this with a grain of salt, but I am opposed to this. The so-called "dead space" doesn't really bother me that much, and it would be superior, I think, to a massive combined table. This might just be a stylistic preference, so I want to hear other opinions. ~EDDY ^{(talk/contribs/editor review)}~ 01:12, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- There may be miscommunication for what I meant, and after reading what I wrote I blame myself. I do not want to combine the lists into one; I think that would be a bad idea. What I mean is to split the pre-existing school breakdown lists into two separate columns within that section, using {{col-begin}}, {{col-2}}, and {{col-end}} to do so. Jrcla2 (talk) 01:22, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  - I like the idea of having the tables positioned side by side, similar with the conference standings in 2009–10 NBA season#By conference. — Martin tamb (talk) 18:02, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from Martin tamb (talk) 17:22, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

;Comments

Per WP:REPEATLINK, I think every entries in the high school and university columns need to be wikilinked.
- Linked. ~EDDY ^{(talk/contribs/editor review)}~ 23:40, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think it is worth mentioning that Kevin McHale has been inducted to the Basketball Hall of Fame.
- I added this, plus a bit about his NBA career.~EDDY ^{(talk/contribs/editor review)}~ 00:10, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Has Ken Lien headed the selection committee since the first award in 1975?
- Since 1977. Clarified. ~EDDY ^{(talk/contribs/editor review)}~ 00:44, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Were the finalists selection dates and the winners announcement date always on January, March and April since the first award in 1975?
- See below. ~EDDY ^{(talk/contribs/editor review)}~ 00:44, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Have the numbers of finalists always been 15 and 5 since the first award in 1975?
- Yes, clarified. ~EDDY ^{(talk/contribs/editor review)}~ 00:44, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Overall, nice list and very well referenced. — Martin tamb (talk) 18:02, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support Great job, but just one more thing, I think the notes in notes section will look better if they are using normal citation, rather than the "See...". Not a big issue though, just a suggestion. — Martin tamb (talk) 17:22, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

- I tried that, but I think that <ref> and <ref group=note> are incompatible. I wish they would work, anyway. ~EDDY ^{(talk/contribs/editor review)}~ 00:10, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  - Interesting, never knew that they wouldn't work. Anyway I've made the change using another method from WP:REFGROUP. Now the notes can have citations. — Martin tamb (talk) 08:42, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from The Rambling Man (talk) 07:46, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

"The female equivalent is Minnesota Miss Basketball. " shouldn't be the second sentence of this list. It should go somewhere but not second sentence.
- I like where it is, and I cannot think of a better place to put it. If you can, please tell me. ~EDDY ^{(talk/contribs/editor review)}~ 22:23, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  - If no-one else objects, fine by me. The Rambling Man (talk) 07:46, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"high school" and "basketball" linked second time round rather than first time.
- Delinked both. ~EDDY ^{(talk/contribs/editor review)}~ 22:45, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"selects five finalists in March of every year since it began" what's "it" here? re-iterate "the award" rather than "it".
- Done. ~EDDY ^{(talk/contribs/editor review)}~ 22:52, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe consider linking "assists", "rebounds", "steals", "blocks" etc for non-experts.
- Done. ~EDDY ^{(talk/contribs/editor review)}~ 23:03, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No lead image?
- I didn't know whether to put the images in the awards section or in the lead. What do you suggest? ~EDDY ^{(talk/contribs/editor review)}~ 22:26, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  - No big deal, wondered if there was a logo for the award or something similar? The Rambling Man (talk) 07:46, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    - I don't know, their is no official Minnesota Mr. Basketball website and I don't think there's an official logo. Perhaps I could have the logo of the Minnesota Golden Gophers, because most recipients played there? ~EDDY ^{(talk/contribs/editor review)}~ 15:01, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Not sure "Most winners" section is really necessary as only 3 uni's have multiple winners and 4 high schools. This can easily be covered in the lead.
- Yes but it is useful to see which schools have won the award without directly consulting the main list. ~EDDY ^{(talk/contribs/editor review)}~ 23:05, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  - I think you could cover this in the lead in a single sentence. The Rambling Man (talk) 07:46, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    - I personally like the section, mainly for the reasons above. Others have supported the FLC while providing touch-ups to it, but not objecting to its presence. I'd rather not remove it. ~EDDY ^{(talk/contribs/editor review)}~ 15:01, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Template is weird because it looks incomplete (presumably to avoid red links?).
- Do you want me to fill them in? ~EDDY ^{(talk/contribs/editor review)}~ 23:06, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The Rambling Man (talk) 19:06, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

- - Well it's not directly related to this FLC, but it is very odd. The Rambling Man (talk) 07:46, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    - Okay, I filled it in. ~EDDY ^{(talk/contribs/editor review)}~ 16:38, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      - It doesn't appear so to me. The Rambling Man (talk) 08:30, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        That's because it was reverted. Apparently not all states have Mr. and Miss Basketballs. ~EDDY ^{(talk/contribs/editor review)}~ 00:04, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        Then the template should be modified so that it only includes states which do have Mr & Miss Basketballs, otherwise it's quite misleading. The Rambling Man (talk) 07:40, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments –

~~"selects five finalists in March of every year since the award began." Considering the structure of the sentence, should "selects" be "has selected"?~~
- Done. ~EDDY ^{(talk/contribs/editor review)}~ 22:24, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
~~I see the image that had been at the top got deleted. Can it be replaced with a photo of another winner? There are already a couple in use here.~~
- I could not find any besides the ones on the page. ~EDDY ^{(talk/contribs/editor review)}~ 22:24, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  - ~~In that case, could one of the existing images be moved to the top to improve the appearance of the intro?~~ Giants2008 (27 and counting) 23:05, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    - Okay, I moved up McHale's image because he had the most successful career of any player on the list. ~EDDY ^{(talk/contribs/editor review)}~ 22:06, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
~~In the notes, remove the space before reference 43.~~ Giants2008 (27 and counting) 01:23, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Done. ~EDDY ^{(talk/contribs/editor review)}~ 22:26, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  - Support – Meets FL standards. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 23:02, 18 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from Courcelles 09:44, 18 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

*Oppose for now There's nothing too major, but the references need a significant clean-up. :*A lede image would make this look so much nicer. Right now it is just a "wall o' text"

- See above. ~EDDY ^{(talk/contribs/editor review)}~ 22:06, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"Joel Przybilla was the co-recipient of the award in 1998." There's five guys in that picture. Use a more precise caption.
- Added "center, in black". ~EDDY ^{(talk/contribs/editor review)}~ 22:50, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"White signed with the Minnesota Golden Gophers, ~~but did not play due to shoplifting and trespassing charges.~~ however, he transferred to Iowa State in July 2010 before playing a game with the Golden Gophers." When it is not necessary, don't include negative BLP information. Quite honestly, we don't need the one sentence on this entire website about someone saying they've been charged with stealing unless absolutely necessary.
Done. ~EDDY ^{(talk/contribs/editor review)}~ 23:59, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
References, you've got quite a few problems, none major, but a good deal of collective clean-up needed. Ref numbers are of this revision.

NewsBank is an archival service; the MediaNews Group is the publisher of the St. Paul Pioneer Press. Do not list the archival service that is hosting your convenience link as the publisher- use the paper's actual publisher, and leave the archival service out of the template all-together.

The rest you're going to have to look up, but refs 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 9, 12, 14, 15, 16, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 26, 27, 28, 30, 31, 33, 36, 38, 40, and 42 all need publisher clean-up or added.

I did not know this rule. In any case, I think I fixed them all. ~EDDY ^{(talk/contribs/editor review)}~ 00:32, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

May I was why you took the easy route and simply removed the wrong information, instead of adding the correct info? Courcelles 00:34, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Pardon? I did add Media News Group to the appropriate references. ~EDDY ^{(talk/contribs/editor review)}~ 00:49, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, but you need to look up the publishers for the other papers, I only gave you one of them, the rest aren't hard to find. Courcelles 01:12, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, I filled the rest in. ~EDDY ^{(talk/contribs/editor review)}~ 00:46, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Anything that doesn't have the city name in the paper; for example, the Deseret News, add the location. Ref 5 will need a location because you're citing a paper from Charleston, WV, and there are two major cities named Charleston.

Hopefully I didn't screw this up. ~EDDY ^{(talk/contribs/editor review)}~ 00:59, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Refs 30 and 41 need author

Fixed number 30. I already had the author on 41, but for whatever reason it isn't showing up. This is very strange. ~EDDY ^{(talk/contribs/editor review)}~ 01:04, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You were missing a | in the template call. Went ahead and fixed it while I was looking. Courcelles 04:24, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Quite frankly, so many of these newspaper links are behind pay walls, we might be better without the links than tagging them all as subscription required. For the St. Paul Pioneer Press links, when you open it up, and it says , "St. Paul Pioneer Press (MN) - April 19, 1988 - 5D Sports" Add the 5D to the page field if you take this route. Same thing for the Duluth News-Tribune reference.

Courcelles 04:37, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know how to tag subscription required. Could you do it for me? ~EDDY ^{(talk/contribs/editor review)}~ 00:46, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Add |format=subscription required to the templates. Dabomb87 (talk) 03:53, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Capped most off, but this one needs to be fixed. Courcelles 05:55, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, done. ~EDDY ^{(talk/contribs/editor review)}~ 23:47, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.