Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of presidents of Georgetown University/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by PresN via FACBot (talk) 00:27, 1 April 2021 (UTC) [1].[reply]

List of presidents of Georgetown University

Featured list candidates/List of presidents of Georgetown University/archive1

Nominator(s): Ergo Sum 20:13, 14 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This is my first FL nomination, so feedback from the FL regulars would be much appreciated. I've improved this article several times over the years, most significantly in the past week, and believe it meets the FL criteria. Thanks in advance. Ergo Sum 20:13, 14 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from ~ HAL333 22:00, 1 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

;Comments from HAL

You should center the refs in the column. Use |style="text-align:center;"|
- Done. Ergo Sum 18:48, 15 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
president of Georgetown University doesn't need to be bolded.
- Done. Ergo Sum 18:48, 15 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
You should add scope to the column with their names. User !scope=row|
- I think I've done it correctly here. Is the bolded text and darker cell background supposed to be the correct output (instead of for the number column)? Ergo Sum 19:03, 15 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The lede looks good. But it could be better. I think you could expand the third paragraph by noting some trends and nuances. Gender, shortest-serving, their background, other interesting things, etc.
- There's not a whole lot more I think can be put into the lede but I will do some digging. My only concern with trends was verifiability. I won't be able to find sources for trends, but would have to infer it from the table below. Not 100% sure whether that's allowed by policy. Ergo Sum 19:10, 15 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  - I've fleshed out the third paragraph with trends about religious order membership and how many went on to become bishops, etc. I can't think of/find a whole lot more to add to the lede. Ergo Sum 01:55, 20 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not a huge fan of having the references in the notes column. I would move them to the ref column.
- The only reason I've done that is because there would otherwise be 4 or more links in the references column for some people, which seems unsightly and a bit confusing for readers. Right now, the references in the ref column support their order in the sequence and the dates of their office. I admit it's not a great setup to have some refs in the ref column and some in the notes column, but I'm not sure how else to do it. Ergo Sum 19:05, 15 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It would be nice if you put a few of the better portraits of the presidents to the right of the table.
- I have correctly licensed portraits for every president but one. I considered creating a column for portraits between number and name (e.g. List of presidents of Washington College). Do you think it would be better to do that or just have a couple to the right of the table? The only downside to having a dedicated column would be that it would lengthen the table and create some empty space for people with nothing in the notes column. Ergo Sum 19:09, 15 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That's all for now. I'll be back. ~ HAL333 21:57, 14 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@HAL333: Have you had a chance to take a look at my comments? Ergo Sum 20:19, 26 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support ~ HAL333 22:00, 1 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from ChrisTheDude (talk) 09:18, 24 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

;Comments

I agree that the lead is a bit "thin" and could do with a bit of expansion
- I will see what else can be added. Ergo Sum 19:15, 15 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  - As I mentioned above a moment ago, I've fleshed out the third paragraph with what I could find in terms of extra detail. Ergo Sum 01:55, 20 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
When sorting on the "No" column, the dash against Quain jumps to the top. You need to use a hidden sort template to make it sort between 44 and 45
- Done. Ergo Sum 19:15, 15 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
On that note, why does Quain not have a number against his spell as acting president, yet the other two who served in that capacity do have a number?
- This has perplexed me. In virtually every source mentioning Georgetown presidents, there is no mention of Quain. However, the third Curran book lists Quain as an acting president in the list of presidents. The problem with this is that whenever a president is referred to as the 48th, 47th, etc. president, that numbering must omit Quain in the order, otherwise, the number would be one higher. Ergo Sum 19:15, 15 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- After thinking about it, I've removed Quain from the list. I looked up his position and he was chairman of the board. So, while it may be true that he "acted" as president, I don't think he was actually an "acting" president in the same sense as the other acting presidents (which conventionally receive a number). The Curran source, while authoritative, seems to be an anomaly on the question of Quain, so I will go with the rest of the sources. Ergo Sum 19:17, 15 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Refs should be centred, as mentioned above
- Done. Ergo Sum 19:29, 15 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Notes against Grassi need a full stop at the end
- I'm not sure what you mean. I've used periods to separate groupings of notes and semicolons within groupings. E.g. all positions are separated by semicolons but positions from alumni status are separated by periods. Ergo Sum 19:29, 15 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  - I can't remember the page, but there's a MOS page that says that in a case where you combine multiple sentence fragments in something like a note, if you have full stops anywhere then you need a full stop at the end. So in the note against Grassi, because you have a full stop after "Rector of the Pontificio Collegio Urbano de Propaganda Fide (1840–1842)" then the whole note needs to end with a full stop. Does that help? -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 19:47, 15 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    - Oh, I see. I'll fix that. Ergo Sum 20:09, 15 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      - NB It only applies if there is a full stop anywhere in the note -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 20:15, 15 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Same with Fenwick's first spell
Conversely, the notes on Fenwick's second spell have a full stop but shouldn't
Just spotted at least three more where the notes need a full stop at the end. In essence, if you have a full stop in the middle of the notes, you need one at the end as well.
You say that two different people, more than 60 years apart, are both sometimes referred to as Georgetown's "second founder" - is this correct?
- Yes, this is unusual, but there are reliable refs referring to both as a second founder. If I'm just speculating here, I think when people started referring to Healy as the second founder, they had forgotten that Grassi was already called the second founder. Ergo Sum 19:31, 15 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  - Fair enough. Just checking it wasn't some sort of copy+paste error -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 20:16, 15 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Timeline diagram looks weird - why do the "blocks" jump back up to the top in 1858?
- I made the timeline a while ago but am not really sure it adds much to the article. Same goes for other timelines on other university president articles. I've considered scrapping it altogether. Do you think it is useful to have?
- The reason I made the line jump is because the purpose is to visually represent the length of time each served in office. Because there were so many presidents, one would be unable to see thee whole list if it were only vertical. Ergo Sum 19:34, 15 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  - TBH I am not sure it adds that much to the article....... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 19:40, 19 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    - I'm inclined to remove it. Perhaps HAL333 might care to weigh in? Ergo Sum 20:37, 19 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      - I would support removing it. ~ HAL333 21:38, 19 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
        Removed. Ergo Sum 01:15, 20 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Think that's it from me -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:36, 15 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 12:04, 21 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from Sdkb

Comments from Sdkb

I'm glad to see another college people list being put forward after my recent nom. This looks very close to being ready for support. A few comments:

Some of the sentences in the last paragraph of the lead, such as for William Matthews (priest), read like caveats. These might be better if converted to {{Efn}} footnotes. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 17:57, 11 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- I've tweaked para 3 a bit so I think this has been resolved. Ergo Sum 02:12, 14 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  Looks fine. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 03:45, 14 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I noticed you decided not to include {{Timeline Georgetown University presidents}}; I don't have a strong view as to whether it adds enough to be worth including or not. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 17:57, 11 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- I created that template a while ago but removed after discussion found above. I don't really think such tables add anything to an article and might go so far as to be a bit gimmicky. I'd ideally like to see their use not proliferate to other articles. That being said, if their occurrence becomes common on list articles, I'd consider re-adding it, but would rather like to see a community-wide discussion about them instead of an article-by-article discussion. Ergo Sum 02:14, 14 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  Makes sense. I can see both sides of the timeline vs. no timeline debate, so in the absence of wider consensus I'll defer to whatever your preference is. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 03:45, 14 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The "SJ" and "SS" are undefined. I'd suggest adding either {{Abbr}} or a link, at least on their first occurrence. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 17:57, 11 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- I initially had the first use of SJ and SS linked but removed them for stylistic reasons. It looks a bit odd to me to have only one linked in the table but not others. My thought was that the meaning of SJ and SS can be gleaned by clicking on the individual's name, where the abbreviations are linked. Do you think this is inadequate? Ergo Sum 02:16, 14 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  - I'd like to see something that doesn't require readers to click through to the person's page, yeah. A link that can be previewed or abbr could work. It could be over only the first instance, or it could be over every instance, since per MOS:DUPLINK, repetition is allowed for lists, since they are expected to be parsed for particular bits of data, not read from top to bottom. I tend to err on the side of more links rather than fewer, since as a reader I find underlinking much more of an impediment than overlinking, but that's somewhat just my personal stylistic preference. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 03:45, 14 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    - I've added links at the first instance. Ergo Sum 03:58, 14 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Many of the presidents are old enough that their images are in the public domain, so I think the visuals could be improved. You could either add a portrait column, as at President of the University of Michigan, or you could add selected portraits on the side, which would double as a way to highlight the more notable presidents. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 17:57, 11 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Added images. Ergo Sum 02:36, 14 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  - Looks good! The current one renders a little small since it's horizontal, so you could try cropping to make it square and see if that's better, but it's acceptable either way. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 03:45, 14 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    - I've enlarged them slightly. Ergo Sum 03:03, 15 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support, as my concerns are addressed, and article overall looks to be in featured shape. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 19:11, 15 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Source review – Pass

Will do soon. Aza24 (talk) 03:00, 12 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I like the timline Sdkb mentioned! I would think it's inclusion in this list could only be an improvement; List of presidents of the University of Illinois System, which is also at FLC right now, just added one as well, if that's any reassurance. Aza24 (talk) 03:00, 12 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Please see my related comments above. I welcome your input. Ergo Sum 02:52, 14 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Unrelated to sources, but is there a point in putting the start and end dates in different columns? They'll sort the same regardless
- Not really. I'll combine them into one column. Ergo Sum 02:52, 14 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Formatting

Sources

Any identifier for Chambon, Célestin M. (1909)? OCLC, ISBN etc? (and for the other Catholic Encyclopedia refs, if possible)
- Added OCLC. Ergo Sum 03:05, 14 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Citations

Is there a link for ref 48? Or if not, an ISSN might be helpful
- There are only 46 citations. But, I've double checked all the refs and they all have links except two of the Curran books, for which there is no courtesy link available, but they have ISBNs listed. Ergo Sum 03:08, 14 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  - Apologies, I was rather talking about the last citation, 45. I'm assuming it's not a web source (since there's no link) I'm just wondering if there's any additional information that can be added (an ISSN for example) to increase verifiability. Aza24 (talk) 02:36, 15 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    - Oh, yes, the only link that I can find for that news article is in newspaper archive databases that are accessible only by subscription, which usually are not included as courtesy links. Ergo Sum 02:54, 15 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Are we sure the NYT access status parameters should be different?
- You are right. Fixed. Ergo Sum 03:10, 14 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  - @Aza24: have you had a chance to take a look at my responses? Ergo Sum 22:12, 16 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    - Thanks for the ping, I missed your last one, but it makes sense. Aza24 (talk) 22:14, 16 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Reliability

No doubts here

Verifiability

Spotchecks not done Aza24 (talk) 03:15, 12 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Pass for source review. Aza24 (talk) 22:14, 16 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from Therapyisgood (talk) 14:07, 19 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

"{ class="wikitable sortable"" should be "{ class="wikitable sortable plainrowheaders"" to start off the main table
- Tables are not my forte. Is this a stylistic point or an MOS requirement? Ergo Sum 01:35, 19 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  - I believe it's a bit of both. I know we're not supposed to be bold linking wikilinks, and all examples at WP:WHENTABLE use it. Therapyisgood (talk) 02:02, 19 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    - Done. Ergo Sum 02:59, 19 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps link ex officio somewhere, if appropriate.
- Linkedin. Ergo Sum 01:24, 19 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
"chartered by Congress" US Congress I'm assuming?
- Yes, clarified. Ergo Sum 01:24, 19 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
File:Timothy S. Healy.png: archive link is not present.
- Added. Ergo Sum 01:28, 19 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
In the most recent president's notes: "Georgetown alumnus." is not a complete sentence so a period is not required.
- Per the discussion above, I've been informed that the MOS requires periods in a paragraph if punctuation is used at all. Ergo Sum 01:30, 19 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
"white American university." perhaps "predominately white American university" as the source says.
- I don't believe there was actually a difference at this point in history, but I've modified it to be extra sure. Ergo Sum 01:30, 19 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Healy notes aren't complete sentences, no need for periods.
- See above. Ergo Sum 01:30, 19 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I'm seeing more generally notes section sentences using periods which really aren't sentences. Please clean up, .
- See above. Ergo Sum 01:31, 19 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Ndash needed for year range in Curran, Robert Emmett (1993).
- Fixed. Ergo Sum 01:34, 19 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The emdash for Curran, Robert Emmett (2010a) and Curran, Robert Emmett (2010b) should really be ndashes. Therapyisgood (talk) 01:05, 19 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Fixed. Ergo Sum 01:34, 19 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your comments, Therapyisgood. Ergo Sum 01:34, 19 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support. Therapyisgood (talk) 14:07, 19 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Please note: the table in this list did not meet WP:ACCESS requirements. Specifically: the table should have a caption (e.g. |+ caption), which can be inside of an {{sronly}} template if it would duplicate the section header. I've gone ahead and added it myself, but keep it in mind for future FLC nominations. Promoting. --Pres N 19:44, 31 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Closing note: This candidate has been promoted, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FLC/ar, and leave the {{featured list candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through.

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.