Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of heads of government of Liechtenstein/archive2

List of heads of government of Liechtenstein

Nominator(s): TheBritinator (talk) 21:34, 11 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Renominating this for FL since it's rejection several months ago. I have taken time to significantly improve it to fit the criteria, mostly taken from experience in my other successful nomination, and I believe it is now ready to reviewed again. TheBritinator (talk) 21:34, 11 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Drive-by comments

All images need alt texts.
Please clarify that you've incorporated all the feedback from the last time this was nominated.
I would remove the images from the Monarch columns. Its a bit distracting.
Scopes need to be on the header cell. e.g. in the deputy heads table, the scope is present on the image cells. It should be on the number cell. Also, if the header cell spans multiple rows, then the scope should be "rowgroup". -MPGuy2824 (talk) 07:30, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hello, I have addressed these comments. TheBritinator (talk) 12:33, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Noting that I've left a notice about this nom at WP:WikiProject Liechtenstein. Hey man im josh (talk) 15:48, 19 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, but that WP is inactive. TheBritinator (talk) 14:41, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

"The appointed head of government is typically the leader of the political party with the most seats in the Landtag or a coalition of parties, but is not required to be a member of the Landtag themselves, although they should meet the eligibility requirements for that office." - source for all this?
"The title was changed to 'Governor'" - what was it before, then? You don't say......
"People are numbered according to periods served by the same person. For example, Carl von In der Maur served as State Administrator twice in two non-consecutive terms, yet is still counted as the second" - this doesn't really make sense as written. Change it to "People are numbered according to periods served by the same person. For example, Carl von In der Maur served as State Administrator twice in two non-consecutive terms, but is counted only once"
Any particular reason why the head of government table has the start and dates squished into one column and a duration column but the deputy heads table has the start and end dates in two separate columns and no duration column? -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 16:58, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I actually coincidentally fixed the second one earlier today while working on something else. I will get on the rest tomorrow. TheBritinator (talk) 00:37, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Feger's first row in the deputies table looks odd with the "duration" being half blank - is the 91 days only the time he served under Ospelt? -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 15:52, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I merged it because he technically still had the role during his time as acting prime minister. TheBritinator (talk) 16:41, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 17:43, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sgubaldo

Will try to look at it this weekend. Ping if I haven't said anything by Wednesday. Sgubaldo (talk) 19:01, 4 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Prose:

Note a ('Defunct from 1936') probably needs a citation. Also, reading the article, it seems like it merged with a separate minor party. Perhaps this could be added to the note?
"In 1921, a new constitution was ratified in which the office was replaced by that of Prime Minister" ==> "In 1921, a new constitution was ratified in which the office was replaced by that of the Prime Minister"?
"The role originated as Landvogt when Michael Menzinger applied for the creation of the role in 1833, which served as the head of the district office, and was the first office-holder" ==> This is one sentence saying two different things at once; I also am not entirely clear if the role itself is what served as the head of the district office. If so, consider changing to something like: "The position originated as Landvogt in 1833, when Michael Menzinger applied for its creation. The role functioned as the head of the district office, with Menzinger serving as the first office-holder."
"... One of the cabinet ministers is appointed to this position by the prince of Liechtenstein upon the proposal of the Landtag of Liechtenstein." ==> Since this is the first time you're mentioning the prince and landtag in the body, you could probably wikilink both again?

Tables:

Text and references are centered in the State Administrator table, but not the Prime Minister or Deputy Prime Minister ones.
I'm not sure if it's a visual glitch or an issue with the table code, but the Josef Büchel box has some weird doubling of the lines.

Source Formatting:

Ref. 1 doesn't comply with MOS:ALLCAPS
Add an archive link for Ref. 2 and 3?
Minor nitpick but some references have opaque names like :1 or :122, when it would be better to have more descriptive ones.

Sgubaldo (talk) 19:32, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sure, removed the excessive capitalization. Will work on archiving later. TheBritinator (talk) 12:40, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Sgubaldo All comments have been addressed. However, I am having a bit of difficulty in getting the party colour bar to line up and can't seem to get it to work. Also, internet archive appears to be down again for the time being. TheBritinator (talk) 13:05, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support, but do archive the sources when the IA is back online. Sgubaldo (talk) 19:17, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Toadspike

"The incumbent Prime Minister is Daniel Risch since 25 March 2021" should say "has been", not "is".
The image caption in the lead is fairly clunky. I don't know if bullet points are a great idea (open to being convinced), and most collages describe images in clockwise order to avoid having to say "Top left:" etc.
The "parties" section is also a little jarring. I think it can either be converted into a paragraph of prose (e.g. listing number of PMs from each party and general trends) or omitted entirely, as at the list of US presidents, given that the parties are linked in the table. The footnote can be added to the first relevant entries in the table (e.g. Alfred Hilbe).
Does this nomination still need a source review? I'd be willing to do that, but it would have to wait until the weekend or perhaps next week. Toadspike [Talk] 15:19, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes @Toadspike, it does still need a source review. Hey man im josh (talk) 15:59, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Toadspike For the second point I was replicating List of prime ministers of the United Kingdom, which is a FL. TheBritinator (talk) 16:17, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm glad to see there's precedent, in that case I won't pursue this point further. Toadspike [Talk] 18:24, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Source review

Most of the list is cited to source 5, which is reliable as a publication of the Landesarchiv.

Source 5 does not mention some of the early acting governors/PMs or Michael Menzinger, doesn't list election dates, and doesn't have specific term start and end dates, only years. I will check the other sources for those later.
It does list Prinz Karl as being "provisorisch" (temporary, acting) from 1918 to 1920 – any reason he isn't listed as such in the table?
It lists acting PMs Feger and Gubelmann as being from the VP and FBP respectively – they are marked as "Independent" in the table.
Otherwise, all PMs' start and end dates are verified.
Source 5 lists Alfons Feger as being deputy PM three times and lists his total time in this post as 1922-1928. The table says that the post was vacant under Gubelmann in 1922 – this should say that Feger held the post during that time period. Also, his party is listed as VP in the source, but the table says that he's independent.
The red bar showing that the deputy MP was from the VP has a small gap between Nigg and Büchel. Probably some table syntax issue. I think it stems from trying to overlap PM Frick's last few months in office with the new deputy.
The remaining Deputy PMs also check out.

Source 1 is really interesting. It is, however, some kind of opinion containing proposed changes to the constitution of Liechtenstein, not actually the constitution itself. I appreciate the commentary where relevant (see below), but I am wondering if there's a better (unaltered, unannotated) version of the constitution you could cite for the uncontroversial stuff, like the first sentence.

I noticed that the sentence Under this constitution, the eligibility for becoming head of government was changed to require residency in Liechtenstein. is inaccurate, since it implies that rule existed in 1921 when the constitution was ratified. The source says that the 1921 constitution required holders of several high offices to be "natives" of Liechtenstein (I'm pretty sure this means "born in Liechtenstein", like the "natural-born" requirement for the US presidency), and that in/after 1992 the Government held that the rule is unenforceable or similar.
This source calls the "cabinet" the "Government". I prefer the term government – any reason why "cabinet" was chosen instead? (This is probably a COMMONNAME issue and I haven't looked into all the sources yet.)
Otherwise the source backs up everything it's cited for.

The third sentence of the lead is uncited. I assume you have a cite floating around for that somewhere? Sources 2 and 3 do not back up the start of the second paragraph, which says "The position originated as Landvogt in 1833, when Michael Menzinger applied for its creation. The role functioned as the head of the district office, with Menzinger serving as the first office-holder." It seems the sources may have been misread. Source 3 explains that the position of Landvogt existed from the 16th century until 1848, when it became the "Regierungsamt". Source 2 explains that Menzinger was the Landvogt from 1833 until his firing due to a financial scandal (sound familiar?) in 1861. The long sentence

Während die fürstlich-liechtensteinischen Beamten in Liechtenstein in der Regel ein Exil sahen, das sie möglichst bald verlassen wollten, hatte Menzinger, der vorher nicht in liechtensteinischen Diensten gestanden hatte, im März 1833 bei Fürst Johann I. um das Amt des liechtensteinischen Landvogts angesucht.

translates as:

While most officials of the princely domains of Liechtenstein saw Liechtenstein [the region that forms the modern country] as an exile [a backwater posting that no-one wanted] which they sought to leave as quickly as possible, Menzinger, who had never served under the Princes of Liechtenstein, applied for the position of Landvogt with Prince Johann I in March 1833.

Basically, Menzinger was remarkable in that he actively sought out the role. However, he did not create the role – it had existed since the 16th century. His role in Liechteinstein history does seem very important, though, so I will not dispute his inclusion in the list itself. The first half of the next sentence is easily verified by source 3. The second half is not entirely verifiable in the sources cited – probably finding the text of the 1862 constitution would be ideal.

Toadspike [Talk] 12:21, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed the party alignment of Feger and Gubelmann. Working to address the rest. TheBritinator (talk) 14:37, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Toadspike For the Menzinger part, how would you recommend rewording it? TheBritinator (talk) 14:41, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Will try to write something by Monday – currently extremely busy. Toadspike [Talk] 21:10, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No problem. I'll take a crack at it in the meantime. TheBritinator (talk) 14:31, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@TheBritinator I've reorganized/rewritten that paragraph to fit exactly what the sources say. I hope my directly editing the article isn't some major impropriety in the FLC process. Toadspike [Talk] 20:27, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've finished my source review. A few notes:

The third paragraph of the lead is verified by the sources cited, except that claim that There are currently five living former prime ministers. I'm assuming this was synthesized from other sources, which I am personally okay with and will not dispute, but if a source could be found that says this explicitly that'd be great. (Also, source 6 says "Government", not "cabinet", getting back to that commonname point I made above).
It looks like the birth/death dates and specific dates when each leader took/left office are based on this source [1], currently relegated to the External links section. I think this website would not generally be considered a reliable source (if I am mistaken, please let me know). I know it's a ton of work, but I strongly advise TheBritinator to go through the articles for each person at the Historisches Lexikon and properly cite these dates to that reliable source. For more recent politicians, newspaper articles might have to be found. Toadspike [Talk] 22:11, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If I remember correctly, there used to be a direct list on the Liechtenstein government website that had the direct dates of each head of government, but for whatever reason it was taken down and I was not able to find any archive. It was quite similar to the PDF I replaced it with but that just has the years instead. I may be wrong but I do believe that is what the source was before I picked up on it over a year ago.

What I'll do is cite the individual lekiton articles with the dates for each person, though this may take a little bit of time. I'll get on it either today or tomorrow. TheBritinator (talk) 00:44, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Toadspike It is done now. The dates for the latter PMs were harder to verify as the lekiton annoyingly didn't state them like the rest. TheBritinator (talk) 19:17, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for doing this, I'm checking the new citations. Comments thus far:

The link to Source 22 is live, so "URL status" in the citation should be set to "live". Currently the first link in the citation goes to the Internet Archive; you can't see the full article from there.
The worldstatesman.org source I previously objected to is still cited a few times. I understand that it's hard to find citations for some specific dates, but in the meantime I have learned that that website is deprecated at RSP, so I strongly encourage you to replace all citations to it.

I noticed that the Lexikon cites some sources in the "Nachrufe" section at the bottom of each article. For instance, you can find the date when Batliner became head of state here. You could also search that website, eliechtensteinensia.li, to find sources.

Best, Toadspike [Talk] 22:38, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Good point. I'll get on that. TheBritinator (talk) 22:40, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Toadspike Ping. TheBritinator (talk) 23:08, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the ping. I'm still going over the sources and dates. There's a small discrepancy around the end of Schädler's term and the start of Prince Alfred's provisional term – the Lexikon says Schädler's entire government resigned on 15.6.1928, and Alfred was provisional head from 24.6. to 6.8.1928. Based on this, I would change the end date of Schädler's term and the start of Alfred's term to 24 June. Toadspike [Talk] 09:52, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Alfred's Lexikon page also says that he was in office until 6 August, not 4 August, so his end date and Hoop's start date should be adjusted accordingly. (The Lexikon should be reliable, but maybe the book I sent you has more info on the specific transfers of power?) Toadspike [Talk] 09:58, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm doing spotchecks and I can't find a source for the end of Brunhart's term and the start of Büchel's term. The date currently listed, 26 May 1993, is several weeks after 1989 Liechtenstein general election the election. Same goes for Hilbe and Kieber. This looks like the same problem I brought up earlier with the state archive's list. At this point it might be better to simply state a year instead of giving a specific date which cannot be verified that originated from a deprecated source. (Alternatively, you can try finding more news articles from the time.) Toadspike [Talk] 10:11, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

On the positive side, the more recent transitions are cited to newspaper articles, which is awesome! I also won't go into detail in the dates for the deputies, since I'm assuming these are always the same as the ones for the head of government except for a few cases sourced to the Lexikon. Toadspike [Talk] 10:14, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'll try. TheBritinator (talk) 14:20, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]