Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of Boy Scout calendar illustrations/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by PresN via FACBot (talk) 00:27, 30 June 2020 (UTC) [1].[reply]

List of Boy Scout calendar illustrations

Featured list candidates/List of Boy Scout calendar illustrations/archive1

Nominator(s): Guerillero | Parlez Moi 17:36, 25 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It has been a 6 year long labor of love to research this article and try to create as many articles about the paintings as possible. I think the list of paintings meets the criteria --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 17:36, 25 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from ChrisTheDude (talk) 15:56, 4 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

;Drive-by comment

Refs should be centred, and where there is more than one on a row they should be in correct numerical order -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 18:44, 25 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- Done --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 02:07, 26 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Further comments

"Between 1925 and 1976, Norman Rockwell created a painting" - this technically means that he created just one painting at some point in those 50 years. You should change "a painting" to "a series of paintings"
- Done --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 02:07, 26 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"After seeing the results of the BSA's use of Norman Rockwell's paintings for The Red Cross Magazine that were donated to the organization by the American Red Cross in recruiting" - blimey, this gets a bit confusing. I think what you meant to say is "After seeing the impact on recruitment of the BSA's use of Rockwell's paintings for The Red Cross Magazine that were donated to the organization by the American Red Cross" but to be honest the sentence is very hard to understand and I may be misinterpreting it........
- I'm sorry my prose is lacking. You are spot on --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 02:07, 26 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"they wondered if " - who's "they"?
- fixed --Guerillero | Parez Moi 02:07, 26 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"bandaging the foot of spaniel puppy under the eye its mother" => "bandaging the foot of a spaniel puppy under the eye of its mother"
- Done --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 02:07, 26 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"the BSA, Brown & Bigelow, Rockwell worked out a deal" => "the BSA, Brown & Bigelow, and Rockwell worked out a deal"
- Done --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 02:56, 26 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"so it could be the cover" => "so that it could be the cover"
- Done --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 02:56, 26 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"Early in the year, the BSA and Rockwell would both pitch ideas for the next painting and decide on the theme." - this seems to contradict the earlier claim that the paintings were done "years in advance"
- Paintings were done 2 years in advance, but one was created every year starting in January. How would this be the best to say this? --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 02:56, 26 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  - So, to confirm, Rockwell would have begun work on the painting for (say) the 1935 calendar in January 1933, ahead of the publication of the calendar in (I presume) the autumn of 1934? Have I understand correctly? If so, I would change the sentence in the second paragraph to "Rockwell would begin his painting around 18 months in advance" -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 14:42, 26 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    - @ChrisTheDude: Sorry for the wait. I was working on The Minute Man which is at FAC. I clarified the timeline. --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 14:48, 4 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"After the painting was "finished,"" - I don't think the use of quote marks is appropriate. Probably better to say "After the initial draft of the painting was finished,"
- Done --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 02:56, 26 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Any note in the table that isn't a complete sentence should not have a full stop.
- I put semicolons between two fragments --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 02:56, 26 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
1929 note seems to have a line break in the middle - remove this
- Done --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 02:56, 26 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Same for 1951
- Done --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 02:56, 26 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
If the title column is to be sortable, then any entry that starts with "A" or "The" need to sort on the next word
- Done --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 02:07, 26 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"the cover of the various handbooks" => "the covers of the various handbooks"
- Done --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 02:57, 26 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
One final question - you say above that you tried "to create as many articles about the paintings as possible", but only three titles are bluelinked out of 49. have you definitely linked all the paintings that have articles?
- Yes, the paintings were widely distributed and are iconic pictures of Scouting in the US, but are mostly ignored by art historians. --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 02:07, 26 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Think that's it from me. This was an interesting read..... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 19:58, 25 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 15:56, 4 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from Aza24

I'm really surprised to see only 1 image in the list. Since this is a list of illustrations, having every single one would be ideal, I'm wondering why there aren't? At the very least there should be 4–5.
- All other paintings are copyrighted, and the NFCC forbids the use of copyrighted materials as a part of a list. --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 15:32, 9 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
While I recognize that you mentioned the illustrations weren't given in 1928 and 1930, I would add this to the table, similar to how List of winners of the Boston Marathon mentions in the table that it was canceled in 2020. A lot of people who go to this list might go straight to the table and just be confused over why those 2 years are missing.
- Done --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 15:32, 9 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Why are "Spirit of America" and "Beyond the Easel" redlinked/linked at all?
- I was going to write about them at some point in the future. Removed. --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 15:32, 9 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
How can the works be referred to differently as "paintings" and as "illustrations"?
- It has to do with who the art world sees as a "real" artist. Since Rockwell was commissioned to portray a client's product in a positive light, he is considered to be an illustrator, not an artist. However, the medium was always oils on canvas, so the produced work is a painting. This article was recommended to me by a friend who writes about Magic: the Gathering illustrations/art and how the line between the two is perceived. --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 15:32, 9 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Shouldn't "We, too, have a Job to Do" be "We, too, Have a Job to Do"?
- Done --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 15:32, 9 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Ref 33 seems to have the wrong page number. (Its in the thousands – the others from that author are in the 100s)
- Done --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 15:32, 9 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
It looks like Joseph Csatari can be linked in the sources with "|authorlink1=Joseph Csatari"
- This a a stylistic decision and isn't required --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 15:32, 9 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Like above, William Hillcourt can be linked too (The other authors don't seem to have authorlinks)
- This a a stylistic decision and isn't required --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 15:32, 9 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think I can support without these issues resolved - Aza24 (talk) 07:05, 9 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Aza24: Let me know what you think --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 15:32, 9 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support - I knew there had to be a good reason for the lack of images, copyright makes complete sense. You have my support. Aza24 (talk) 21:49, 9 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from — Bilorv (Black Lives Matter) 16:35, 17 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Intending to claim WikiCup points for this review.)

No major concerns, but I've done my best to find nits to pick:

Between 1925 and 1976, Norman Rockwell created a series of paintings ... — But the first one was created in (or before) 1918, right? Might be good to rephrase.
- How about Between 1925 and 1976, Brown & Bigelow released a yearly calendar for the Boy Scouts of America (BSA) featuring a yearly painting by illustrator Norman Rockwell. --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 23:51, 10 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  - Looks good except I'd remove the second "yearly" ("a yearly calendar featuring ... a painting" makes this clear). — Bilorv (Black Lives Matter) 12:23, 12 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    - Done --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 14:02, 12 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Up to your discretion but might be good to introduce who Norman Rockwell is for readers who aren't familiar, though there's not much to say that you wouldn't get from context. I'd just suggest ".... illustrator Norman Rockwell ...". It would be more an indication of absence of information to the reader (was he well-known in another context? No), which can still be important.
- Sounds good --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 23:51, 10 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Forgive me if I'm being thick, but it's one painting per year, and the calendar has what? These paintings on the front cover and then one image per month inside? Something else?
- Before the 60s, calendars had a single image for the year with a tear-off portion at the bottom for each month. --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 23:51, 10 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  - Is it possible to add a brief description of the calendars, before and after the 60s if there are suitable references? — Bilorv (Black Lives Matter) 12:23, 12 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    - I will re-read over some sources, but they seem to be so common that authors expect that you know what they look like. They look like this, btw --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 14:02, 12 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    - @Bilorv: I found a source! Done --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 15:50, 13 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Rockwell would paint his painting years in advance – paintings?
- Done --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 23:51, 10 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I would have expected italics in The Washington Times and Dallas Art News but not The Children's Museum of Indianapolis (which should use a straight apostrophe per MOS:CURLY). Mistakes or am I misunderstanding?
- Done --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 23:51, 10 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I've been getting this wrong until recently, and I might still be wrong, but MOS:ALT says The alt text is read out by screen readers just before the caption, so try to avoid having the same details in both and later suggests the alternative |alt=refer to caption. (In regards to the infobox image.) Another option might be |alt=A Good Scout. I think the point is just to bypass the full filename by giving a 'title'-like description.
- I skimped on this one. I replaced it with A Boy Scout in a dark tan uniform with a matching wide brimmed hat bandages the foot of a spaniel puppy while being watched by its mother --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 23:51, 10 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
1951 says The only time an Air Scout was included in an Rockwell painting. This seems to be the only fact in "Notes" not about a painting being published elsewhere or its current ownership. Is it particularly significant? Presumably lots of verifiable facts about other paintings are omitted (such as those on the articles for specific paintings). Have you thought about removing it for consistency?
- Removed --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 23:51, 10 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Can you walk me through what the NYT source verifies and where? Presumably Used as the cover art for the 4th edition of the Boy Scout Handbook but I can't see where it shows this.
- I remember there was a caption that mentions this, but it looks lost. I replaced with Moline 1979, p. 134 --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 23:51, 10 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

And some positive feedback:

The Washington Times is not a high-quality source for politics, but fine for simple statements of facts like how it's used here. Other sources are high-quality.
Thorough list with a clear scope and completeness – meets 3(a).
Good information and summary style in the lead.

— Bilorv (Black Lives Matter) 22:34, 10 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support: thanks for the quick replies, and the list looks very good in every aspect. — Bilorv (Black Lives Matter) 16:07, 13 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Source review passed; promoting. --Pres N 03:50, 29 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Closing note: This candidate has been promoted, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FLC/ar, and leave the {{featured list candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through.

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.