Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/1963 Pan American Games medal table/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was not promoted by Giants2008 23:27, 23 January 2012 [1].

1963 Pan American Games medal table

Featured list candidates/1963 Pan American Games medal table/archive1

Nominator(s): Felipe Menegaz 05:31, 31 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this medal table for featured list because it follows the standards of the 2007 Pan American Games medal table (FL) and is more comprehensive than the other tables from the Pan American Games. There is a lack of references, however, this is an old edition of the Games. Therefore, the only reliable sources found were placed. Regards; Felipe Menegaz 05:31, 31 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comments
- This is not a reason to oppose, since it's used all over the place, but it would be nice to get away from the Mercator projection for the map. Canada is taking up a full 1/3 of the image, and I'm pretty sure Greenland isn't larger than South America.
  - Well, I think that the map's projection does not affect the quality of the list and I appreciate if you save me some time from having to create a new map... Hahaha. Particularly I like Mercator projection maps. I decided to use this one because it already had the Caribbean islands highlighted. --F.M.
- The three footnotes say the exact same thing three different ways ("achieved, in fact,", "got", "earned"; "despite", "instead of", "despite"). In prose it makes sense to break up monotony in this fashion, but my feeling is that footnotes should be uniform.
  - What would be the ideal form? --F.M.
    - Simple, uniform writing. So probably just say "earned" and "instead of". 'Despite' seems like a poor choice of words; they didn't win these medals "despite" news coverage. --Golbez (talk) 13:59, 2 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
      - Done Some sources appoint that NOC earned X medals, instead of Y. This would result in a total of Z medals. Felipe Menegaz 19:35, 2 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Otherwise, looks good. --Golbez (talk) 16:12, 1 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  - Thank you for the review! Felipe Menegaz 00:23, 2 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from The Rambling Man (talk) 12:05, 6 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

~~No bold links in the lead per WP:MOSBOLD.~~ Done
~~"in nearly 155 events " why "nearly"? why not just have the exact number?~~ Done
- Actually, there is no reference for the number of events performed at the 1963 Games. Just removed the number. Felipe Menegaz 21:03, 3 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
~~"at least one gold medal" no need for that last "medal".~~ Done
~~"3 bronze" -> "three bronze"~~ Done
~~", being the Games " -> "making it the Games.."~~ Done
~~" The United States did lead all the medal counts" -> "The United States led all.."~~ Done
~~Put note a at the end of the sentence.~~ Done
"Boxing was the sport that earned more podiums to Brazilians (3 gold, 5 silver and 1 bronze), followed by Athletics (2 silver and 6 bronze) and Tennis (3 gold).[3]" poor structure, (a) Athletics/Tennis don't need to be capitalised (b) "earned more podiums" is not nice to read, perhaps make it more active, i.e. "Brazil won more medals in boxing than in any other sport, followed by athletics and tennis."? Done
~~Why is CIMED capitalised in your caption but normal in the link, i.e. Cimed?~~ Done
Distinct lack of English sources which is a shame because it will make verifying the content of the list very difficult.
- Unfortunately, I couldn't find reliable sources in English. I think that this is the only one, but it do not add much to the list. Felipe Menegaz 20:56, 3 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The Rambling Man (talk) 19:21, 3 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Is there adequate alt text to help people with the map who can't see it very well?
- Maybe "Map of the Americas colored with gold, silver, bronze and purple." I don't know... Felipe Menegaz 20:56, 3 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  - I'm not even sure that it really adds much at all to the article, and I still have concerns over it's compliance with WP:ACCESS. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:07, 6 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    - Changed alt text to "Map of the Americas pointing countries colored in gold, silver and bronze according to their top achievements during the 1963 Games. Countries that have not won medals are colored in purple. The yellow square indicates the location of the host city." Felipe Menegaz 23:25, 6 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
      - I don't believe ACCESS applies here - since the data in the map is also in the table, using colors alone in the map is not preventing anyone from receiving a full understanding of the data. --Golbez (talk) 02:44, 14 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
        What should be done then? Regards; Felipe Menegaz 03:26, 14 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Can't see the sorting arrows in the gold/silver/bronze column headings.
- I think that is a problem on {{RankedMedalTable}}. Felipe Menegaz 20:56, 3 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  - Well it should be sorted because right now you have a key that says those columns with the arrows can be sorted, which is not the whole picture because those without arrow heads can also be sorted. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:07, 6 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    - Changed key to "To sort this table by nation, total medal count, or any other column, click on the column title or the icon next to them." Felipe Menegaz 23:25, 6 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from Giants2008 (27 and counting) 21:04, 12 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comments –

"Columbia, Costa Rica, the Dominican Republic, Haiti, Nicaragua and Paraguay did not sent athletes to Sau Paulo". "sent" → "send". Done
"The United States led all the medal counts for the third consecutive time". A less wordy version of "led all the medal counts" is "led the medal count". The latter version seems cleaner than what's there now. Done
- However, medal counts remained plural because it refers to four different counts (gold, silver, bronze and total). Felipe Menegaz 23:07, 6 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
In the second paragraph, a few refs to a 1959 medal table would be helpful for verifying the first sentence. The other sentences need some form of citation as well. Done
Don't need to capitalize Tennis at the end of the lead. Done
Ref 3 could use an en dash to replace the hyphen in the middle of the title. Done

Giants2008 (27 and counting) 22:18, 6 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Support – Meets FL standards. Oh, and please don't strike a reviewer's comments for them; let them check that the comments have been satisfactorily addressed. The fixes were fine in this case, but I've seen comments not resolved that were struck by the nominators. It's an inconvenience all around. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 21:04, 12 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Oh, I apologize for that. Thanks for the advice. Regards; Felipe Menegaz 21:48, 12 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: just regarding the phrasing of the opening sentence, I've been told numerous times that anything not plural should have either "is" or "was" after it eg. "The 1963 Pan American Games...was" versus "The 1963 Pan American Games...were". Not a big issue for me, but I've been picked up on it before, so it might be wise to change. Otherwise, looks good, even down to the correct number of stars on the Netherlands Antilles' flag. I ♦A 15:06, 21 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Just changed. Thank you! Felipe Menegaz 14:59, 22 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Great, looks good! I ♦A 01:30, 26 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from KV5

Comments from KV5

"while the British Guiana" - is the British Guiana proper usage?
- Removed "the" after a quick look on British Guiana. --F.M.
"best performance so far" - best performance to date might be better wording
- Done. --F.M.
"highest ever position" - highest-ever position
- Done. --F.M.
"11 competing athletes from three countries" - comparable quantities, should be "11... 3" or "eleven... three"
- Done. --F.M.
Medal table needs captions, row-headers, column-headers.
- The table follows the standard of dozens of other medal tables with Featured list status. It already has column-headers, and the addition of row-headers and captions would be either irrelevant or redundant. Felipe Menegaz 03:51, 26 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  - Disagree. "Other stuff exists" is not a valid argument. Many of these lists were featured prior to the update and implementation of the ACCESS table requirements. These are important elements for non-sighted readers to be able to understand the table and should be implemented. — KV5 • Talk • 12:29, 26 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    - I understand. However, I don't know what kind of captions, row-headers, column-headers should be added to help readers to better understand the table. Could you give an example? Cheers; Felipe Menegaz 19:53, 26 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
      - The column headers are already extant but need the "scope" parameter to define for non-sighted readers what those columns encompass. The row-headers would be the country/IOC name (the "Nation" column) and also requires the "scope" parameter to define the information in each row for non-sighted readers and to help them navigate. The caption should explain for non-sighted readers what the table has, in simple short prose. For this table, I would recommend the following caption: "List of competing nations, showing the number of gold, silver, and bronze medals won by each nation and the total thereof" or something similar. For details on how to implement these, MOS:DTT has directions. — KV5 • Talk • 01:52, 27 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
        Made some changes. I don't know if I did it right... Felipe Menegaz 02:57, 27 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
        It's absolutely correct, well done. — KV5 • Talk • 13:48, 27 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Image captions are not complete sentences; remove the period/full stop at the end of each.
- Done. --F.M.

Hope these comments help. — KV5 • Talk • 12:51, 25 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Could you explain the last two comments? I do not understand very well what I need to do. Kind regards; Felipe Menegaz 17:42, 25 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- For examples and explanations about adding row headers, column headers, and captions, see MOS:DTT. For the captions, remove the period symbol . at the end of each captions, because they are not complete sentences and should not have periods at the end per MOS:CAPTION. — KV5 • Talk • 20:05, 25 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I still fail to understand why this and most all other medal table pages must be a separate list. 1963 Pan American Games is awfully darn short. Reywas92^Talk 21:29, 1 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I am also awaiting resolution of this question. — KV5 • Talk • 23:17, 12 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think that this can only be solved at WP:OLYMPICS and WP:MUSE. Felipe Menegaz 15:50, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Not particularly true, as this could be considered a content fork, which is not necessarily under a WikiProject guideline but rather a sitewide guideline. This is where concern arises. Discussion can be undertaken by the WikiProjects but users here can easily determine whether this is a fork or not and whether it meets the criteria for a stand-alone list given the current state of the main article. — KV5 • Talk • 18:29, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think that the main article can be easily expanded, and in my opinion it does not make the list a content fork. Alongside all medal table lists, I believe it meets the criteria for a stand-alone list. Felipe Menegaz 19:50, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The criterion is not meant to determine what could be (that the main article could be expanded); it is meant to determine things in their current state. As of right now, I'm tending to agree with Goodraise. At this time, the main article is not substantial enough to justify this short of a list standing alone. I am leaning toward a 3b oppose at this point but am willing to listen to more input from outside reviewers. — KV5 • Talk • 02:53, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Support Only problem I could see was that the sort key was not showing in the table but i've rectified this now, great work. NapHit (talk) 23:08, 29 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Support with only one comment - I don't think the "See also" section header is necessary for the footer table. -- SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 18:38, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. Violates criterion 3b. In my current opinion, this is a content fork of 1963 Pan American Games. Good raise 23:27, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.