Wikipedia:Featured article review/Pope Pius XII/archive1

Pope Pius XII

Review commentary

User:Savidan, original editor, already aware. Messages left at Wikipedia:WikiProject Biography/to do and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Catholicism,. Sandy 19:48, 16 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This article describes complex circumstances often by only one sentence. The facts are thus decontextualized, sometimes turned into the contrary. Furthermore, this article makes use of the appalling Hirshberger-image, which is POV and makes this a biased, balanced article.

Also see discussion, esp. request for opinion there. UAltmann 16:44, 30 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The first criticism ("context") is too general to be actionable. Many edits which have been labelled as context involve the dumping of large swathes of European history into the article which have little relevance to Pius's actual biography. This is not an article for discussing the entire history of Europe during the first half of the 20th century, or even the history of the catholic church during that period.

The Hirshberger image is being discussed on the talk page. If you see the "request for opinion" there, you will see that the only two users who have responded so far have supported the inclusion of the image. savidan^{(talk) (e@)} 17:42, 30 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Savidan, this is not true,

Str1977 has voted to remove the image,

so has Chris. UAltmann 17:53, 30 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

FearEireaan (Jtdirl) has voted to remove the image. UAltmann 05:59, 31 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

As to other criticism than the image: Savidan never lets us edit without consensus, consensus with him is impossible, since he has to all kinds of critizism his stereotype answers: "not actionable" "not biographic" "no relevance" "no entire history of church/europe", the list could go on and on.

Dates are not wikified.

You cannot describe complex circumstances with only one sentence. This is simply not encyclopedic. I am referring to the section where a report of v. Weizsäcker to Berlin Gov't. is cited. Neither the content of the citation is the whole truth nor leaving out its intent. Leaving both out is turning the actual message of the citation into the opposite. In this case, it would be better to leave out the circumstance, but do not alter the facts. One time I wanted to initiate a change of this, Savidan suggested I claimed v. Weizsäcker to have been a double agent. This is nonsense, v. Weizsäcker had a vital interest to let his 'Führer' not enlarge the conflict, which would have been the case if Hitler would have declared war on the catholic world. To keep Hitler vom enlarging the conflict, he worked together with Pius XII . There are numerous sources for this, v. Weizsäcker, Blet, Lapide, etc. UAltmann 06:15, 31 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I have accepted the removal of the Hirshberger image for the time being on fair use grounds. I'll wikify the dates too. As for this Weizsacker thing, what I explained to you on the talk page is that things like intent cannot be stated as objective facts in the same way that quotations can. The current quotation is undisputable--he said it. The intent is a matter of opinion/interpretation/etc. If you want to include this information you need a full citation and you need to attribute it to the author who ascribes this motive to v. Weizsacker (if your source is v. Weizsacker himself, state the way that he later explained his actions, and when).

All three of these sources that you mention are for the most part entirely out of print, and were never readily available in english. If your information instead comes from a secondary source who cites one of these three, then give a complete citation for that and at least we can work from there. savidan^{(talk) (e@)} 18:51, 31 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This article is not currently listed on WP:FAR. Was it ever listed correctly for review? Gimmetrow 23:12, 10 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This review was started on August 30, 2006 but was listed on September 14, 2006. Joelito (talk) 19:45, 14 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This article was made FA in June, and appears to be subject to POV warring. Perhaps instead of de-listing, the article should be reverted back to its nomination state, it appears much more concise and less biased than it has become. Judgesurreal777 22:22, 14 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm honestly not sure if there are still ongoing disputes about the two sections in question. Str threw up the pov flag in the "Reichskonkordat" section but hasn't replied yet since I rewrote the section, and CJGB added section dispute to the post-war orphans section, not because the content there was overtly incorrect but because he thought he could rewrite it to be more clear; that hasn't happened in a few weeks. Whenever I remove a dispute tag it seems to provoke moral outrage, but it does seem like there should be a burden on the disputer to attempt to discuss the objections in a timely manner. savidan^{(talk) (e@)} 22:48, 14 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I move that this FAC be closed. Judgesurreal777 01:05, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I move that this FAC remains open. While the article has a ton of references, there are still places which need references. LuciferMorgan 11:23, 27 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

FARC commentary

Suggested FA criteria concerns are comprehensiveness (1b), POV (1d), images (3). Marskell 18:39, 1 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: There was no consensus for closing early, so here it is. Marskell 18:39, 1 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There are no actionable concerns here. This review was started by UAltmann based on some minor disputes which have long since been resolved. The Hirshberger image was removed for fair use reasons and the section disputes have been addressed. savidan^{(talk) (e@)} 19:42, 1 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There are actionable concerns here, namely criterion 1. c. of "What is a featured article?". Yes there are a ton of references here, but given the size of the article they're real sporadic. The article needs more inline citations. Until this is done, I vote Remove. LuciferMorgan 13:39, 8 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Could you please provide examples of sentences which require an in-line citation? Otherwise, this objection is not actionable. savidan^{(talk) (e@)} 22:13, 9 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I appreciate you need clarification, but my objections are actionable. I'll find some examples though. LuciferMorgan 22:49, 11 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

A quick glance throws up the "Priest and Monsignor" subsection that needs inline citations, and I'm sure there's others. LuciferMorgan 22:52, 11 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

First paragraph of "Archbishop and papal nuncio" needs citing. These are only examples by the way, as there's more. LuciferMorgan 22:55, 11 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I've added a lot of citations to these sections, to the point where I think that there are too many. I am reluctant to add any more without knowing which statement you think lacks sourcing. savidan^{(talk) (e@)} 00:57, 19 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Keep, but will Savidan please change the titles to normal case, not title case (see MoS on this). One reference is wrongly formatted in "Archbishop and Papal nuncio". Tony 13:54, 16 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Missing ref— not sure what this is: Pollard, 2005, p. 70. Can the External links be trimmed down (WP:NOT, WP:EL)?

I added the Pollard ref. Don't know if I never remembered to add it or if it got removed somehow. I'm pretty happy with the EL right now, but if you have any in mind that you think are problematic, I'd be open to removing some. savidan^{(talk) (e@)} 03:58, 19 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

If all of the External links are relevant and important, I'm satisified with that, but I still see a lot of direct quotes (throughout the article) without inline cites. Sandy (Talk) 23:45, 24 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I believe I fixed what you were referring to. Two of them were quotes where the source was named in the text of the sentence and I added references. Two fo them were these unsourced "Nazi media" quotes which some IP snuck into the article several times. I always considered that passage to be unrepentently point of view, so I just removed it. savidan^{(talk) (e@)} 23:59, 24 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Keep, issues addressed. Sandy (Talk) 02:54, 25 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Remove for now.Neutral. Sorry but issues are not addressed here; at least, until the necessary inline citations are added. I don't want to put these ugly ^{[citation needed]}. That is why, I mention here all the sentences and paragraphs needing citations:

"After completing state primary schools, Pacelli received his secondary, classical education at the Visconti Institute. In 1894, at the age of eighteen, he entered the Almo Capranica Seminary to begin study for the priesthood and enrolled at the Pontifical Gregorian University and the Appolinare Institute of Lateran University. From 1895-1896, he studied philosophy at University of Rome La Sapienza. In 1899, he received degrees in theology and in utroque jure (civil and canon law). At the seminary, he received a special dispensation to live at home for health reasons." A whole paragraph in "Early Life: uncitated.
"During World War I, Pacelli maintained the Vatican's registry of prisoners of war. In 1915, he travelled to Vienna to assist Monsignor Scapinelli—the apostolic nuncio to Vienna—in his negotiations with Franz Joseph I of Austria regarding Italy." Important information which are uncitated.
~~"As Cardinal Secretary of State, Pacelli signed concordats with many non-Communist states in an attempt to gain recognition for the four-year-old Vatican State, including concordats with Baden (1932),~~ Austria (1933), Germany (1933), Yugoslavia (1935) and Portugal (1940). The Lateran treaties with Italy (1929) were concluded before Pacelli rose to the office of Secretariat. Such concordats allowed the Catholic Church to organize youth groups, make ecclesiastical appointments, run schools, hospitals, and charities, or even conduct religious services. They also ensured that canon law would be recognized within some spheres (e.g. church decrees of nullity in the area of marriage).

He also made many diplomatic visits throughout Europe and the Americas, including an extensive visit to the United States in 1936 where he met with Charles Coughlin and Franklin D. Roosevelt, who appointed a personal envoy—who did not require Senate confirmation—to the Holy See in December 1939, re-establishing a diplomatic tradition that had been broken since 1870 when the pope lost temporal power.

~~Pacelli presided as Papal Legate over the International Eucharistic Congress in Buenos Aires, Argentina on October 10-14, 1934, and in Budapest on May 25-30, 1938."~~ Three uncitated paragraphs in "Cardinal Secretary of State and Camerlengo".

"but the opposition of Protestant and Socialist parties and the instability of governments thwarted this aim. In particular, the questions of denominational schools and pastoral work in the armed forces prevented any agreement on the national level, despite talks in the winter of 1932." Here we have uncitated assessments. Who says that the opposition of Protestant and Socialist parties and the instability of governments thwarted this aim?
"Adolf Hitler, appointed Chancellor on 30 January 1933, seeking to gain international respectability and to remove internal opposition by representatives of the Church and the Catholic Centre Party, sent his vice chancellor Franz von Papen, a Catholic nobleman and former member of the Centre Party, to Rome to offer negotiations about a Reichskonkordat. On behalf of Cardinal Pacelli, his long-time associate Prelate Ludwig Kaas, the out-going chairman of the Centre Party, negotiated the draft of the terms with Papen. The concordat was finally signed, by Pacelli for the Vatican and von Papen for Germany, on 20 July and ratified on September 10, 1933." A whole uncitated paragraph in "Reichskonkordat". And why is there a comma before appointed?!
"Pope Pius XII accepted the Rhythm Method as a moral form of family planning, although only in limited circumstances, in two speeches on October 29, 1951, and November 26, 1951. (These speeches were translated into English and published under the title Moral Questions Affecting Married Life.) Some had controversially interpreted Pope Pius XI's 1930 encyclical Casti Connubii to allow moral use of Rhythm, but these speeches by Pope Pius XII were the first explicit acceptance of any method of birth regulation aside from complete sexual abstinence. The Catholic Church's modern view on family planning was further developed in the 1968 encyclical Humanae Vitae by Pope Paul VI." Important theological comments which are uncitated. I donot say that they are original research, but, if they do not get citated, they will look like that.
The whole "Apostolic constitutions" sub-section is uncitated.
"Great Consistory" is another uncitated sub-section.
"As the war was approaching its end in 1945, Pius advocated a lenient policy by the Allied leaders in an effort to prevent what he perceived to be the mistakes made at the end of World War I." Another uncitated assessment. In so important assessments of a FA, citations are absolutely necessary! Somebody must support this assertion!
"Galeazzi-Lisi gained admittance as the pope lay dying and took photographs of Pius which he tried unsuccessfully to sell to some magazines, forcing him to resign as head of the Vatican medical services in the wake of massive public protests." Citation needed.
"Many Jews publicly thanked the pope for his help. For example, Pinchas Lapide, a Jewish theologian and Israeli diplomat to Milan in the 1960s, estimated that Pius "was instrumental in saving at least 700,000 but probably as many as 860,000 Jews from certain death at Nazi hands." Some historians have questioned these figures. Dr. Raffael Cantoni, head of the Italian Jewish community’s wartime Jewish Assistance Committee, stated that "six million of my coreligionists have been murdered by the Nazis, but there could have been many more victims had it not been for the efficacious intervention of Pius XII." Moshe Sharett, later Israel’s second Prime Minister, met with Pius in the closing stages of the war and said, "I told [him] that my first duty was to thank him, and through him the Catholic Church, on behalf of the Jewish public for all they had done in the various countries to rescue Jews. . . . We are deeply grateful to the Catholic Church." Golda Meir, Israel’s Foreign Minister, eulogized that "when fearful martyrdom came to our people in the decade of Nazi terror, the voice of the Pope was raised for the victims."" This whole paragraph in "Contemporary" section is full of uncitated quotes. This is totally inacceptable for a FA!
In totally uncitated sub-section "The Deputy", I quote: "Lichten labelled any criticism of the pope's actions during World War II as "a stupefying paradox" and said, "no one who reads the record of Pius XII's actions on behalf of Jews can subscribe to Hochhuth's accusation."" It is not enough that you mention the book. Since you quote, you should mention a page number as well.
"In 1999, John Cornwell's Hitler's Pope criticized Pius for not doing enough, or speaking out enough, against the Holocaust. Cornwell argues that Pius's entire career as the nuncio to Germany, cardinal secretary of state, and pope was characterized by a desire to increase and centralize the power of the Papacy, and that he subordinated opposition to the Nazis to that goal. He further argues that Pius was anti-Semitic and that this stance prevented him from caring about the European Jews." Again, in which page of his book does Cornwell say that? Convince me that you have really checked the source!
"The Commission discovered documents making it clear that Pius was aware of widespread anti-Jewish persecution in 1941 and 1942, and they suspected that the Church may have been influenced in not helping Jewish immigration by the nuncio of Chile and the Papal representative to Bolivia, who complained about the "invasion of the Jews" to their countries, where they engaged in "dishonest dealings, violence, immorality, and even disrespect for religion." (Questions 7 and 12 of the ICJHC report)" Another uncitated paragraph in "ICJHC" with important fndings, which are unreferenced.

The article is well-written, but in its current form it has serious referencing problems. It is inacceptable to have all these important assessments and facts uncitated in a FA level article. I hope they'll be soon properly sourced.--Yannismarou 13:12, 25 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think I can address all of these rather quickly. I already took care of the early life paragraph. Most of these are implied references or issues where the same reference is used for multiple sentences. For some of these things adding a page number would be counter-productive. For example, the summary of Cornwell's book is ot a summary of a single page but of his entire argument! There's no point in citing the apostolic constitutions themselves just to give the jist and the year of publication, etc. savidan^{(talk) (e@)} 15:25, 25 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ok! I'm sure the article will be soon fine.--Yannismarou 16:38, 25 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I've addressed most of these. If you could strikethrough the one's in your previous post that have been addressed that would be helpful. savidan^{(talk) (e@)} 02:26, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I've done it. I also turned my vote into "neutral", until the remaining citations are added.--Yannismarou 10:41, 26 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Status: Eight-odd fact requests were added by another user, "per FARC". Savidan, can you tackle those and maybe we can move to close this? Marskell 13:59, 30 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I was out of town this weekend, but I'll get right on finishing these. savidan^{(talk) (e@)} 23:02, 30 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

With the exception of the three citation requests in the Reichskonkordat section (which str1977 has told me he'll take care of), the article should be fine. savidan^{(talk) (e@)} 05:07, 2 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Checking versus Yanni's list, "lenient", and the bit on Cornwell have cites, but "Apostolic constitutions", "Great Consistory", and "thwarted this aim" do not. Could you add a couple more Savidan? For instance, he´s one of a few modern popes to invoke papal infallibility. What is a "few" in this context? Inches away! Marskell 11:58, 2 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

To provide some grammatical input: there is (or rather was) a comma before "appointed on January 30" because it is a non-defining relative clause, giving additional information about this Hitler fellow (for those who didn't know who this is). Str1977 ^{(smile back)} 14:26, 2 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The Apostolic Constitution section really shouldn't require a citation. For example, would you find citations in an article about a major author next to a list of his works and their publication dates? I think that the cites that Str1977 has added take care of the "twarted this aim." I'll look for a book that discusses the Great Consistory to add a cite there. As for papal infalibility, as it is a 19th century invention, that should be pretty obvious. But I can cite Pollard's discussion of that if you wish. savidan^{(talk) (e@)} 15:54, 2 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I posted a note on last point on the article talk. Marskell 00:20, 3 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Keep as improved. -- ALoan (Talk) 17:57, 2 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Problem seem addressed. Keep!--Yannismarou 20:09, 2 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]