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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was removed by User:Marskell 11:38, 27 June 2008 [1].

Kazi Nazrul Islam

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Review commentary

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Wikiprojects listed on the talk page have been notified.

Article lacks appropriate sourcing. A large part of the "mass music" and "religion" section came from obscure and not-so-reliable sources. One was an unpublished and informal talk by a professor and another was an essay by a undergraduate student. So two subjective sections about scholarly analysis are from non-reliable or non-mainstream or non-notable analyses and violate undue. The other part is the general sourcing; most of the article just linked to the front page of a website without citing any pages. Other parts were sourced to blogs and other self-published articles. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 03:07, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I would like the folowing sentences to be altered as they use peacock terms:

  • Nazrul won admiration of India's literary classes by his description of the rebel whose impact is fierce and ruthless even as its spirit is deep:
  • While hailed by many as a pioneer and epoch-making poet by progressives, who took inspiration from his works that attacked
  • Nazrul is considered to have been one of the most brilliant exponents of Shaktism

KnowledgeHegemonyPart2 (talk) 06:20, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I just checked the version right before it was taken FAR and the version that was protected to feature on the main page. This is what I found. The article has degraded much, and one good way to deal with the degradation is a quick removal of all the POV copy and unreferenced information put in "after" it was assessed as an FA through community consensus. This looks like a much better solution to keep quality intact, more so than the painstaking rewriting and citing much of the new stuff would require. Any gem that lies hidden in the dirt can be shoveled back later. If someone wants bits of it back already, the article still would remain surely open to that. Aditya(talk • contribs) 10:56, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, the two sources I was talking about were there from the start. But it doesn't matter now because they have been removed. Although I think the rewrite has increased the amount of peacock terms and caused a 1a issue. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 03:58, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

FARC commentary

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Sggested FA criteria concern is referencing (1c). Marskell (talk) 20:09, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Don't remove speaking in context of the overall article. Its a subject on which there doesn't seem to be as many sources available. As a solution, I don't see why we can't just remove the sentences/facts without due citations - none of them seem critical or vital to the article. It won't diminish, as it doesn't seem people here can find any better literature. And is it worth risking the status of the overall article over those non-essential sentences? I don't think so. Vishnava talk 12:26, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Don't remove It is always more prudent to remove the parts that hurt, fixing the bits that has degenerated, than to remove the article from featured status. That is one of the reasons why we have this article history thingy. Aditya(talk • contribs) 03:04, 24 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep: The FAR helped improve the article significantly. The citation concerns have now been addressed. Thanks to diligent contribution from Anwarul Islam, Vishnava and others. If there are any other concerns, that should be raised here, otherwise I don't see any reason to remove. Arman (Talk) 06:15, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. The citations repeat the whole book details over and over, some of the refs are still not formatted consistently and – needs to be used for book range. Apart from that one new paragraph has been inserted without references, and some things have been bolded for no apparent reason. US and UK English have been mixed. Some literature names are italic, others are not, while others are in brackets. A lot of POV/commentary has been added, without attributing it to a pundit but in Wikipedia's voice "The forces that opposed him suffered defeat, and like all great poets, he succeeded in creating his own audience" and "astounding and far-reaching success". "Both traditional and non-traditional women were portrayed by him with utmost sincerity" (needs to be stated as a consensus/opinion not raw fact" and "It is the message of love, beauty and truth that he pronounced all his life". Footnotes need to be placed immediately after punctuation....The rewrite has also unfortunately introduced a lot of grammar errors such as "He was born in a Muslim family who is second of three sons and a daughter, Nazrul's father was the imam and caretaker of the local mosque and mausoleum" and so the article doesn't pass 1a anymore. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 06:29, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It can't be retained without serious work.

  • MOS breaches start with the unspaced en dash in the dates at the top. I see curly quotes, proscribed by MOS, and ellipsis-dot-spacing problems. And more.
  • Prose problems such as "Working at the literary society, Nazrul grew close to a rising generation of Muslim writers", although it could easily be saved on that front (concerned about reviewers' points above, though).
  • "Nazrul catapulted to fame with the publication of "Bidrohi" in 1922, which remains his most famous work."
  • US/Br spelling dissonances. TONY (talk) 16:17, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Remove Large groups of text remain unreferenced, inconsistent ref formatting, MoS errors. I'm not comfortable with using Banglapedia as a source in this article, given that this supposedly neutral encyclopedia uses terms like "martyr" and "freedom fighter" to describe certain individuals in Bangladeshi history. Remember the saying, "one man's freedom fighter and another man's terrorist". I know Kazi Nazrul Islam is a poet, but given Banglapedia's issues with neutrality, I wouldn't consider this an entirely reliable source. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 03:34, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I am afraid you are confusing between WP:VER and WP:NPOV. NPOV is a policy for Wikipedia, but this policy does not say that all it's sources must also adhere to this policy. As long as the sources have reputation of fact checking and proper attribution all sources, irrespective of their POV, are considered reliable. Arman (Talk) 03:59, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Extremely biased (which I consider Banglapedia to be) sources are almost always unreliable. Furthermore, I made this point to demonstrate that even if Banglapedia is a reliable source, its issues with neutrality should be taken into account when selectively citing parts of the text. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 04:13, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Banglapedia is a scholarly work produced by Asiatic Society, one of the most respected scholarly organizations in South Asia. Your claim about unreliability of Banglapedia is unfortunate. If your objections are to the use of the word "Freedom fighter", here is an example from Britannica online, which shows Britannica itself uses the term. So, your claim of POV is also unfounded. Banglapedia is a print encyclopedia, and the print version has full citations/references for all of the articles. --Ragib (talk) 15:55, 6 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Another problem is that 60+% of the article is now sourced to the Nazrul Institute. Although the people who wrote it are scholars, the mission statement of Nazrul Institute is quite hagiographic towards KNI, using extremely emotional language. The problem is that a lot of the new subjective content is now sourced to an organisation that is dedicated towards promoting Nazrul's work - and refers to KNI as "our" in its front page. This skews the pundit analysis heavily towards the promoters and admirers of KNI. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 04:19, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Remove - needs a fair bit of work on numerous criteria; MOS, reference formatting, (un)reliable sources (oft cited example), and the like. If this is all done satisfactorily I'm happy to take another look. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 11:07, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment (about Banglapedia): Virtually ALL sources (academic and popular) in Bangladesh refer to the fighters for independence of Bangladesh as Freedom Fighter and those who died in the war fighting for Bangladesh as Martyr. In fact, if any source published in Bangladesh fails to identify them as such, the source and author is likely to be harshly criticized. You may call this a national point-of-view. Now, if we start to say that all sources that use the words freedom fighter and martyr are unreliable, then we have to cut out all sources from Bangladesh - all newspapers, almost all books and all scholarly works on the history of the country - which is absurd.
Banglapedia is a publication by the Asiatic Society of Bangladesh, a 50+ year old research organization with solid reputation of research work. Some of the most reputed academicians from Bangladesh were involved with this organization. The Chief editor of Banglapedia is Professor Sirajul Islam, one of the most respected academicians in the country, a corresponding fellow of the Royal Historical Society, a former Senior Commonwealth Staff Fellow at the University of London (1978-79), a Senior Fulbright Scholar at Urbana Champaign (1990-91), and a British Academy Visiting Professor (2004). Please take some time to check out the page about him on Columbia University's International Directory of South Asia Scholars. The other contributors of Banglapedia are also known scholars in their respective field of expertise. The book can be found in all the leading libraries in the USA including libraries of almost all the ivy league schools. In Bangladesh Banglapedia enjoys far more credibility than wikipedia itself. Search on Google Scholar generates 170 hits.
Are there problems in the article on Kazi Nazrul Islam? Yes, there probably are; but citing from Banglapedia is not one of them. Arman (Talk) 02:54, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Can't agree with those claiming Banglapedia to be an improper source. I think Armanaziz has given enough reasons to explain why. Wouldn't it be like, you can't use the BBC as a reliable source 'coz its UK government-run and UK-centric in its activities? There are perceptions of bias with BBC, not proven bias. If it bothers you, its your right not to watch BBC but you can't dismiss it as a reliable source. Its not like the whole article relies only on Banglapedia. And Banglapedia is a sister to Wikipedia, helping considerably to expand its scope. Vishnava talk 21:57, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
With respect, I feel you are dragging in an irrelevant perspective - "BBC does not push some POV regarding British figures" - first of all, as I said, there are perceptions, not established facts. The same goes for Banglapedia - perceptions, yes, but established bias, no. Individual criticism cannot affect the reputable status of Banglapedia. You are confidently asserting that BBC doesn't push some POV, and I feel the same about Banglapedia. But even as you criticize Banglapedia, there are many who see a liberal bias in BBC. My point is, you cannot flatly reject Banglapedia as not a RS without due evaluation and evidence. Vishnava talk 01:23, 2 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Also, the Nazrul Institute sponsors research, publishes books and research papers, etc. I don't know why any book published by the institute is disqualified. The reliability of the source requires more analysis than that. Vishnava talk 22:37, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delist - In only a couple of glances, I could spot atleast 3 or 4 gross violations of PEACOCK and NPOV. For example, when did Calcutta become the "cultural capital of india"? It is at once, a vio of both PEACOCK and POV. "Nazrul's poetry is regarded as rugged but unique in comparison to Tagore's sophisticated style." doesnt convey anything at all! What is "rugged" and what does "unique in comparison to Tagore's" even mean? Also, some of the images (atleast the one in the infobox) lack source information. It has just been released into public domain on the claim that it was published for the first time over 60 years ago. But there is no evidence to back that claim. Same with other images too. One of the images, infact seems to be up for deletion on eo.wikipedia. Also, what makes nazrul.org and ethikana.com WP:EL-worthy? What makes nazrulsena.com RS? The article fails the basics. Sarvagnya 01:25, 29 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Calcutta's "cultural capital" bit is cited, I believe. Also, comparison of Nazrul and Tagore, if properly cited, is in fact a good addition, giving the reader an idea of the scholarly analysis and views of their respective poetry; now you can't blame someone for using "rugged" and "unique" to describe their analysis. To me personally, the implication is obvious - Tagore's use of Bengali is more classical, especially in view of his sophisticated education and expertise; Nazrul is more colloquial, his background being that of a son of the soil, representing Bengali spoken by common people across the region. The image is clearly more than 60 years old, given Nazrul's birth/death dates and age data. Vishnava talk 02:11, 29 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Nazrul Sena: The Nazrul Sena website has ONLY been used as a source for the statement, "Bangladesh Nazrul Sena is a large public organization working for the education of children throughout the country", which is clearly verifiable from the website of the organization. Since there is nothing exceptional in this claim, I don't see why we have to question this source. Arman (Talk) 03:40, 29 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
External Links: WP:EL says: "Wikipedia articles may include links to Web pages outside Wikipedia. Such pages could contain further research that is accurate and on-topic; information that could not be added to the article for reasons such as copyright or amount of detail (such as professional athlete statistics, movie or television credits, interview transcripts, or online textbooks); or other meaningful, relevant content that is not suitable for inclusion in an article for reasons unrelated to their reliability (such as reviews and interviews)." The links of nazrul.org and ethikana.com have audio records of recitation from Nazrul's poetry and Musics composed by Nazrul. These are relevant materials for Nazrul researchers but these items cannot be directly used in Wikipedia both because they provide too much details and have copyright issues. I hope this explains what makes them WP:EL-worthy. Arman (Talk) 03:50, 29 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Remove, unless more neutral sources are used. For example, this was cited in the article, and the same website includes sentences such as "By the magic touch of his wonderful talent" and "with a view to preserving his immortial achievements" ([2]). Hopefully this and others are replaced with more nonpartisan sources. If the text in the article becomes more neutral, I will reconsider my decision as well. Khoikhoi 04:35, 29 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Could someone help me understand what the problem is with using the words "Magic" or "Immortal" in the context of Kazi Nazrul Islam? He is the national poet of Bangladesh. Isn't it enough justification to call him immortal? It is quite common to use emotional language in critical commentry on artistic / literary subjects. It can be shown that even Harvard Gazette uses such terms (See Immortal, Magic etc.) So, next time we should have to avoid all Harvard publications as well, shouldn't we? Arman (Talk) 06:55, 29 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Not wanting to act as a double act, but Armanaziz is right (again) and I can't understand this type of objection either. Naturally I'll try to address the concerns once I get an idea how to. Almost all WP:RS-complying types of books, papers and sources contain some subjective statements and assessments and provide/promote one POV or another. I know the guy (don't remember his name) who wrote "Jinnah of Pakistan" also added a tribute to Jinnah as being a founder of a nation, changing the world, etc. So is his biographical work, which is reputed and widely read and cited, a bad source? Have you ever read a bio of Mahatma Gandhi, John F. Kennedy or Mother Teresa that doesn't include praise and tribute? A reputed organization like the Carnegie Endowment will have something nice to say about Andrew Carnegie. Albert Einstein is hailed by almost every scientific institution. Vishnava talk 07:13, 29 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well, there have been quite a few books that have slated JFK and Gandhi and Mother Teresa also have their critics. Your point about Carnegie is the problem though. The Carnegie Endowment, obviously because it is an associated organisation of Carnegie, has a predisposition towards him. Likewise, the Nazrul Institute was formed with the intent of promoting Nazrul's work and "spreading the gospel" so to speak, and says as much in its mission statement, aside from the emotive language in it mission statement, it has already stated its predisposition towards Nazrul. As such, its publications have a pre-defined slant. Sourcing 60% of an FA to a body with an institutional COI is not good. Likewise, having 60% of a war article written by the official scholars of one of the warring parties is a big COI. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 09:01, 6 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
HeLa cells (the subject of the first Harvard Gazette story) are immortal cells. Also, the word "immortalized" is used as an eye-catching title. The second Gazette link actually deals with "magic", or rather the medieval concept of magic. And, isn't the Harvard Gazette a student publication? Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 17:32, 31 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well, that specific example of the use of word "magic" may refer to medieval concept of magic, but how about this or this? Also, with due respect, you are incorrect about Harvard Gazette being a student publication. Harvard’s Office of News and Public Affairs, which is the liaison between the University and the news media and the general public, manages the University’s Web site as well as the production of the Harvard University Gazette (Reference). Arman (Talk) 06:30, 4 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I was only asking if Harvard Gazette was a student publication (hence the question mark). Besides, it looks like the Harvard Gazette is only used to publicize university-related matters. I wouldn't consider it a reliable source just based on who's publishing it; I would have to do some investigating before making such an assessment. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 19:20, 5 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
So, when Harvard's public affairs office publicizes its works or uses words like "magic" or "immortalize" to describe art and literature works, that's something to be evaluated separately from Harvard's research publications. On the other hand, when Nazrul Institute's website says their mission is to immortalize Nazrul's magical work in a sheer bid to publicize their work, it automatically makes all their research publications biased and unreliable? To me it seems like a double standard.
The bottom line is, Nazrul Institute is a research institution established by the Government of Bangladesh to conduct and promote study on the works of the national poet of the country. As such, the institute finances and coordinates majority of the research of Nazrul scholars in Bangladesh. The publications of Nazrul Institute are almost universally considered to be the most authoritative source about Nazrul in Bangladesh. The fact that they use emotional words in their website about Nazrul is not a valid argument to discredit all their works. If this is not evident to someone not familiar with the culture and academic arena of Bangladesh - it must be, if not anything worse, a big misunderstanding. Arman (Talk) 02:10, 6 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note I would like to request more time to address the issues raised here. It is very important to note that some clear-cut responses citing applicable Wikipedia policies have been provided as answers to the "remove" votes, so its not like there is a consensus or anything, nor can we argue that the objection arguments are settled. Considerable progress has been made in (a) addressing the prose problems (not finished though) and (2) providing sources to facts that required citations - the article doesn't have any holes. The continuing argument seems to be about a few sources contested under WP:RS. Vishnava talk 07:16, 29 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delist because 60% of the sources are from an institute with the explicitly stated aim of promoting the legacy and work of the subject. As such, there is a very heavy weight on an organisation/printing house with a declaration predisposition and a COI, as their mission statement has already declared the subject to be "immortal" and "incomparable" etc, and places a strong emphasis on declared supporters of Nazrul. This would be similar to having a religion FA where the sources are from a body sponsored by a missionary organisation related to the said religion. Or a memorial institute to some politician publishing books about the said politician. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 09:01, 6 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Correction - Nazrul Institute facilitates the publication. You cannot insinuate that the works of the authors are necessarily biased because the Institute published it - each book has to be evaluated on its own merit. Otherwise, it won't be worth trusting books from Simon and Schuster, which is linked with CBS News. Vishnava talk 14:41, 6 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well, CBS and Simon and Schuster are RS, although not for talking about themselves because that is a self-source and it isn't 3rd party. BBC is reliable, but it is not reliable for saying that the UK government is politically interfering into its journalistic freedom. The organisation is not a third-party organisation because of its mission statement of promoting KNI's work. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 03:58, 10 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
One distinct point to answer - have any bias from these sources permeated into the article? If we remove them and leave just the facts as cited, does it not work to maintain WP:NPOV? In this context, the research credentials of Banglapedia and Nazrul Institute are fairly good. If we leave out any possible opinons, etc., using them just as reliable verification of facts, then would there be a problem? Also, and I may be mistaken in my interpretation, but there are a few points in policy that are pertinent to this debate: (1) Wikipedia:RS#Reliability_in_specific_contexts - The claim that all or most scientists, scholars, or ministers hold a certain view requires a reliable source. If you claim that the authors of books published by the Nazrul Institute or Banglapedia carry the bias of the Institute or of a pro-Nazrul entity, you must prove it with a reliable source. Like the Simon and Schuster example, the mere note of publisher cannot stain the work itself. Vishnava talk 14:57, 6 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well, if the exact same things are in independent sources, then it is better to just use an independent source anyway, since it would be more professional. Even if George Bush's website says the same basic data as a historian for some things, if we put his website there instead of a historian, the reader may just assume that it is self-serving propaganda or a joke. Many FACs have required people to substitute 3rd party references for COI references. Many military FACs have forced the removal of refs by official army historians/publishers. In the case of the Nazrul Institute, many of the references are for non-black/white things about his stylishness, personal character etc and the Nazrul Institute's mission statement has already declared him to be the best etc. This was already done before the institute was founded, so they have already reached their conclusion before they started researching and publishing their papers. Also, your quotation from RS is referring to the use of subjective statements in article. As above, SS/CBS being used to talk about news is OK, but not to talk about itself or its associates. Using an organisation with a mission statement of promoting a certain thing in a WP article about a certain thing is problematic. It's the same as using a Petroleum Institute sponsored book for talking about global warming. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 03:58, 10 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I still think there is something wrong in your argument: (1) Banglapedia is a third party reference, b'coz it is not tied with the subject of the article, Nazrul. It is like the Encyclopedia of Islam and similar subject-specific encyclopedias. It is a national, accredited encyclopedia. (2) The citations are from individual works authored by Bangladeshi scholars; Nazrul Institute is the publisher, who may have its own mission statement, but it is not the author of the works, merely the publisher. Does any book published by Simon and Schuster necessarily carry the same issues of bias with S&S/CBS? No. Your reasoning would only apply if the article was about the Nazrul Institute, Banglapedia or the authors of the books in question. (3) I don't think the article imports any actual POVs from these sources. (4) Any source or work has elements of POV, as we've talked of bios of Gandhi, JFK, etc. In no way does it mean that the source/work is not properly researched. (5)


I think its wiser to ask others to chip into this specific debate, for the 4 of us (Nishkid64, Blnguyen, Armanaziz and myself) can keep emphatically arguing with each other and do this review no good. I am perfectly prepared to accept your arguments if I can see some of my specific questions answered. Vishnava talk 15:04, 6 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hold Placing a request to hold this FAR open for a bit - am working fast on getting more sources and seeking other opinions on the Banglapedia/Nazrul Institute issue. It will take several days - hope everybody is fine with that. Vishnava talk 16:01, 8 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Holding and holding, it seems. What are the opinions on the article? Marskell (talk) 19:54, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Remove, the two weeks of "hold"ing did nothing substantial to address the concerns expressed above. Urge this be closed shortly as there's a clear consensus (other than thoe who !voted "hold") to delist. Daniel (talk) 01:40, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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