Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Leo II (emperor)/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was archived by Buidhe via FACBot (talk) 7 August 2023 [1].

Leo II (emperor)

Nominator(s): Unlimitedlead (talk) 21:55, 25 June 2023 (UTC), User:Iazyges[reply]

This ~~Eastern Roman~~ Byzantine emperor died aged seven. The Byzantine world is a bit of a guilty pleasure of mine, so working on Leo II was an opportunity for me to take a break from my larger projects and have some fun researching simply for the sake of researching. I have worked on this article for a while with Iazyges, its primary author, and we now believe it is ready for inspection at FAC. Have fun, Unlimitedlead (talk) 21:55, 25 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, and I have previously stated elsewhere, "Please keep in mind that I will be embarking on a month-long international trip on the 28th, so responses to queries after then will be met with a delayed response [from myself, at least]. Apologies for any inconveniences, and enjoy reviewing". Cheers, Unlimitedlead (talk) 21:56, 25 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Images are appropriately licensed. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:07, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Believe it or not, I have never had these words uttered to me before. Thank you for the image review, Nikki. Unlimitedlead (talk) 11:46, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

PCN02WPS

Gave the article a read-through, here's what I've got:

The first sentence of the body reads with striking similarities to the start of the lead; could this be reworded (even slightly) to avoid this?
I'll have to work this out; probably best done by expanding the lede, as the current start of the body is formatted as I like (small wonder why...). Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 05:53, 4 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"daughter of then emperor Leo I" → "daughter of then-emperor Leo I" (with hyphen)

Done. Unlimitedlead (talk) 21:00, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"emperor" is lowercase through the lead and the first sentence of the body but switches to being capitalized with "He was the maternal grandson of Emperor Leo I"
This is per MOS:JOBTITLE. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 05:53, 4 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"The 10th century De Ceremoniis" → I could be wrong here, but I think "10th-century" should get a hyphen since it's a compound adjective

Done. Unlimitedlead (talk) 21:00, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"He was also appointed as the sole consul for 474 around this time" → I had to read this a couple of times to make sense of it, and I had to read the corresponding article to get some background knowledge, so two questions (not super pressing, just background information that could be helpful to unfamiliar readers (such as myself)):
- Why was he the sole consul when there were always supposed to be two?
  I'll have to look deeper, but my initial assumption would be a diplomatic move: when the East or West was trying to impress/court the other, they would only name one consul, and leave the slot open for the other. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 05:53, 4 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- Could this sentence be reworded just a bit and include a bit of information that consuls only ruled for one year, which makes the phrase "sole consul for 474" make a little more sense?
"as he was too young to sign official documents" → while it is fairly obvious who "he" refers to here, it might be helpful to change it to "Leo" since it could be argued that "he" is ambiguous here

Done. Unlimitedlead (talk) 21:00, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"especially when the high child mortality rate of the time is considered" → this does not sound as good as the rest of the sentence; I'd reword this to avoid the passive voice and repetition of "is considered" earlier in the sentence

Fixed. Unlimitedlead (talk) 21:24, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"for 17 years, until his death on 9 April 491" → comma is not needed here

Done. Unlimitedlead (talk) 21:00, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The link to Daniel the Stylite in Note A should probably be removed per MOS:LINKINNAME

Done. Unlimitedlead (talk) 21:00, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

In Note C, the phrase "This, however, would require to label the entire document as fake" reads as though there is a word missing ("require ___ to" or something like that)

Fixed. Unlimitedlead (talk) 21:00, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That's all I've got, well done with the article. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 15:24, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for reviewing, PCN02WPS. I am at the airport right now, so I am unable to do much, but I have attempted to tackle some of your comments. I will try to get to more, but I am sure Iazyges can get back to you faster than I can. Cheers, Unlimitedlead (talk) 21:00, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Iazyges, have all of the comments been addressed? If so, could you ping the reviewer? Gog the Mild (talk) 18:00, 4 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Gog the Mild: Not yet; I'm trying to do them as I can. I have a busy schedule with school until my final on Friday, after which I should be far more free. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 18:43, 4 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Borsoka

...called "the Younger"... Why? I would mention this information after his grandfather was introduced.
...and Ariadne, the daughter of then-emperor Leo I. He was the maternal grandson of Emperor Leo I... Repetition.
As the grandson of Leo I, Leo II had a strong claim to succeed his throne. Why? (Perhaps because Leo I had no sons, or Ariadne was Leo I's elder daughter.)
...passed over his son-in-law... We are not informed that Zeno and Ariadne were married.
...on account of his unpopularity This info is out of the blue. Treadgold gives a detailed explanation. He does not write of Zeno's unpopularity but his rivalry with Aspar, and also writes of the marriage of the Arian Aspar's son with Ariadne's younger sister in an attempt to seize a claim to the throne.
He was crowned at the Hippodrome of Constantinople, and the ceremony was presided over by the Ecumenical Patriarch Acacius. The 10th-century De Ceremoniis gives a detailed account of his coronation as augustus, which is dated to 17 November 473. I think the sequence of the two sentences should be changed.
He was crowned at the Hippodrome of Constantinople, and the ceremony was presided over by the Ecumenical Patriarch Acacius. Did the Patriarch only preside over the coronation without crowning the child emperor?
He was also appointed as the sole consul for 474 around this time. Some explanation? Who were the consuls or why was his appointment relevant?
When Leo I died of dysentery on 18 January 474, Leo II acceded to the throne as sole augustus. I assume he had already acceeded to the throne when he was crowned co-emperor.
I think the page in reference No. 7 is not correct.
... with the approval of Empress Verina... Why was her approval necessary?
... with the approval of Empress Verina... I think she was Dowager Empress at that time.
A wikilink to Nestorianos?
...speculation among some modern scholars... Could you name some of them?
Zeno was vastly unpopular due to a lack of dynastic prestige,... Is this a general view or only the cited author's PoV?
...Additionally, because he was an Isaurian, he was seen as a foreigner by the Byzantine elite... I think this info should be mentioned when introducing Zeno at the beginning of the section.
Do we need information about Zeno's reign after Leo II's death in this article?
Some modern authors, relying on a passage... Could you name some of them?
The writers of the Prosopography of the Later Roman Empire and other authors relied for the 473 date on the arguments of Otto Seeck .... However, modern scholars date the event to 472. When were the Prosopgraphy and other authors' works published? Could you name some of the modern scholars? (My problem is that you are contrasting the Prosopography with "modern scholars", although first published in 1971 the Prosopography is quite modern.)
Some authors have argued... Could you name some of them?
...and contradictorily... Is this verified by any of the two cited sources? Borsoka (talk) 13:33, 2 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Gog the Mild

Just passing comments at the moment. Which may or may not develop into something more.

Do either of you have access to Kulikowski, 2019? If not, may I commend Imperial Tragedy to you; utterly magisterial.

I do not. Perhaps Iazyges does. Unlimitedlead (talk) 23:30, 21 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

" Accordingly, Leo II was made caesar (heir to the throne) around October 472, and was later promoted to augustus in November 473, making him co-emperor alongside his grandfather." I think it could be pointed out that both of those promotions were made by Leo I. Delete "later". Possibly mention that Leo I made our Leo co-emperor when he, Leo II, was seriously ill and expected to die? Which he did. Are you sure about "November 173"? I have an impeccable source which states October.
"When Leo I died of dysentery on 18 January 474, Leo II acceded to the throne as sole augustus." No mention of the three days of horse trading and politicking between the court and military factions - obviously including Zeno - before they agreed that Leo would succeed to the throne? Nor that, unusually, the consent for this of the (Constantinople) senate was sought.
"it was only through cunning and bribery that he managed to rule". Unlike any other Byzantine emperor ever then? Not an actionable comment.

Very funny, Gog :) Unlimitedlead (talk) 23:30, 21 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

And foreign language words should use lang templates - you know that.

Done. Unlimitedlead (talk) 23:38, 21 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Carr, Croke, Meijer, and Jones don't have publisher locations.

And more:

"the Byzantine Senate, with the approval of Empress Verina, made his father Zeno co-augustus". Are you quite sure that's what your sources say? The Byzantine senate barely had the authority to adjourn itself for lunch. Since when did the eastern senate have the authority to appoint emperors? I have a source which mentions the senate's "token consent".

I can find in my sources only a single thing which Leo II - who is, after all, the subject of the article - is recorded to have done during his brief reign. Which is, as senior augustus, to physically crown his father as co-augustus, in front of a sell-out crowd in the Hippodrome, on 9 February.

It looks like I am going I will be doing that full review. I'll get on to it once your partner in crime is back from enjoying themself. Gog the Mild (talk) 21:09, 4 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This partner-in-crime will unfortunately be missing in action until late July. Unlimitedlead (talk) 00:59, 5 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hiking in Canada until late July! Gahn! Can you explain what is "unfortunate" about that? Please use short words. Gog the Mild (talk) 03:44, 5 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunate that I will be away from my beloved Wikipedia for so long. But other than that, the mountains have been treating me well

Unlimitedlead (talk) 04:05, 5 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Unlimitedlead and Iazyges - wakey, wakey! Gog the Mild (talk) 17:00, 15 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Gog the Mild Hello, yes, sorry. I have been quite occupied and my responses will still be slow as I am still in the mountains, but I will try to knock out as much as I can today. Unlimitedlead (talk) 23:13, 21 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Apologies, been unexpectedly busy with life; will try to get working soon. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 00:48, 22 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I assume that the unaddressed comments above are still waiting for attention from one of you? Give me a ping if I am wrong or once they have been addressed. Ta. Enjoy Canada. Gog the Mild (talk) 16:23, 23 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Freedom4U

Just one comment, the first paragraph of the history section is already long, but the sandwiching effect makes it very difficult to read. On a 1280x800 size screen, that single paragraph takes up the entire screen. :3 F4U (they /it) 18:23, 17 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Freedom4U I have split the paragraph. Please take a look and see if it is to your satisfaction. Unlimitedlead (talk) 23:40, 21 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Looks good! 👍 :3 F4U (they /it) 23:58, 21 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Iazyges and Unlimitedlead: - where exactly does this nomination stand? Hog Farm _Talk 23:49, 5 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Hog Farm and Buidhe (Gog being recused) it's unusual for both co-noms to be absent simultaneously but that's been the case for at least a week and given the age of the nom and it being far from consensus to promote I don't see an alternative to archiving at this point, WDYT? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 12:04, 7 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Agree - this one needs archived at this point. Hog Farm _Talk 12:24, 7 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Closing note: This candidate has been archived, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. (t · c) buidhe 16:11, 7 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.