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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose 15:44, 22 January 2013 [1].

Lady Saigō

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Lady Saigō (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): Boneyard90 (talk) 09:02, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because I have been the primary contributor to the article since its creation, improvements have been made since it was promoted to GA, and it has been very stable. Boneyard90 (talk) 09:02, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Support on prose per standard disclaimer. These are my edits. - Dank (push to talk) 01:00, 21 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm on Firefox now so it's difficult to quickly find and eliminate them, but her name is spelled inconsistently. Macrons should probably be added throughout, as well as to "Houdai-in". Once this is done, support. elvenscout742 (talk) 15:23, 21 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"Saigo" to "Saigō": Done.Boneyard90 (talk) 15:45, 21 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
On the issue of Houdai-in, I hesitate to make the proposed change with a macron ("Hōdai-in"?). Based on the Houdai-in website address, it would seem that "Houdai" is the accepted transliteration. Boneyard90 (talk) 15:47, 21 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia prefers macrons over us and hs and so on. The url isn't really a reliable source anyway; the whole website is in Japanese, and even the English copyright notice at the bottom gives the name in kanji as 宝台院. WP:MOSJ says we should spell it the way reliable English sources (the ones used in the article?) spell it, but honestly internal consistency makes me think we should use a macron for all long os in the article if we use it in the title. elvenscout742 (talk) 16:36, 21 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
You understand, it's not really my own opinion or position on "macros vs. no macrons" that I'm putting forward, so much as just accuracy to sources. I would think that the url address is an accurate reflection of what the temple calls itself. For the moment, I'll look through English sources, and see if they even mention the temple, or her posthumous name. Boneyard90 (talk) 16:41, 21 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
FWIW, here are the Google ngrams. - Dank (push to talk) 17:09, 21 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Also found the following:
Oh of course, I did not mean to imply that you didn't understand the policy or anything of the sort. I meant that since the site is entirely in Japanese, it doesn't seem to count as a reliable source on the spelling. If they could use kanji in their URL it seems they would (see the copyright notice I already mentioned). No URL has a macron in it anyway; it seems just as likely that the URL has "houdaiin" solely because those are the keys on a keyboard that one uses to type 宝台院. This seems to be a case where there is a lack of reliable sources in English, and so I think we should default to the standard Hepburn romanization. elvenscout742 (talk) 07:28, 22 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Done: "Houdai-in" to "Hōdai-in". Boneyard90 (talk) 10:23, 22 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Images: several images need US-compatible licences. For pre-1700 images, I suggest adding the PD-Art parameter as PD-100. Where there is no PD-ART tag, either use a) PD-100, or b) PD-OLD and PD-1923. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 23:13, 22 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, most of that is a bit over my head at the moment. You'll have to give me some time to figure out what I need to do. Boneyard90 (talk) 03:00, 23 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I've corrected them for you, please take a look so you know next time :) Essentially I upgraded pd-70 to pd-100.
  • Could you translate or obtain a translation of the source information of File:Tokugawa Ieyasu2.JPG please
  • PD-art requires some explanation. If you take the lead image which you uploaded (File:Saigo-no-Tsubone2.JPG), two thinks went into the work. Firstly, someone painted (or drew) it. Secondly, someone came along and photographed it. As regards the first person (the "underlying work" referred to in the template), PD-100 is sufficient. Then we have to consider the second person. If that person is not you (say you got it from the Internet) then PD-ART explains why we don't need that person's permission: we assert they have no rights. That only works for the US, which is what's important to us, but not (necessarily) for re-users in other countries. For that reason, if the uploader is the photographer it is easier to create a couple of headings: "Underlying work" with a PD-100 template, and Photograph with a PD-SELF licence. You could use another licence for yourself, but that would only work in regards to your copyright over the image in other countries. For clarity, PD-SELF is easy and clean, and most uploaders do not consider themselves to have copyright in a "natural" sort of a way, so that's why I suggest it.

Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 17:24, 23 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

First, thanks for the help! I get bogged down in the different copyrights.
Done: Translation of image information.
On the photo File:Saigo-no-Tsubone2.JPG: Yes, I took the photograph. I'll work on making the changes.Boneyard90 (talk) 17:50, 23 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Done: Added PD-User to File:Saigo-no-Tsubone2.JPG. Boneyard90 (talk) 18:39, 23 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - spotchecks not done

  • Be consistent in how you format page notations - ranges should consistently use endashes, check inclusion of periods, abbreviation of ranges
  • FN1: why no page number?
  • Be consistent in whether you include publisher locations
  • Check for template glitches like doubled periods
  • Publisher for Zenkoku? Nikkimaria (talk) 03:39, 23 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • Done: Consistency of endashes, periods, and abbreviations checked &/or corrected.Boneyard90 (talk) 19:09, 23 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • On FN1: There is no page number because it's an online article without pages. Although the biblio listing is linked to the article, I went ahead and added the url to the in-line citation.Boneyard90 (talk) 19:13, 23 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • Done: Added publisher locations to all book listings in the Bibliography.
    • Done: Double periods found & corrected.
    • On Zenkoku: The publisher is there: "Yamagawa Publishers". However, I added the word "Volume" before "B" for visual clarification. And also every other listing that had a volume. Boneyard90 (talk) 19:39, 23 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Spotchecks

  • Ref 1 - first instance doesn't seem to discuss the content preceding it; second instance substantiated
First instance based on two sections:
(1) "between those of noble birth who were allowed to enter the presence of the shogun and those below, who throughout their entire careers would never see him." - mention of woman's position in relation to master of the house (the shogun, in this case).
(2) Discussion of layout of apartments, from wife's, to child bearing women, to other consorts: "Plans of the palace show that it was divided into three sections: the wing where the shogun’s wife had her apartments...Only the highest-ranking ladies and those who succeeded in bearing the shogun’s child had their own rooms. The rest had to share."
However, I will insert another source. Boneyard90 (talk) 23:36, 18 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Additional source added. Boneyard90 (talk) 23:59, 18 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref 3 - doesn't explain meaning of term Saigō-no-Tsubone
    • Ref 3 (now Ref 4) provides an example translation of a similar name: the name "Kasuga no Tsubone" is made synonymous with "Lady Fuku". I felt that the translation of "tsubone" as "Lady" needed some precedent in the literature. Boneyard90 (talk) 00:04, 19 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref 43 - doesn't seem to support info about Sunpu castle.
    • I can remove the specific reference to Sunpu. This was supposed to be a transition sentence. By 1603, he unified Japan and was named shogun, that is supported by sources, no problem. Therefore, as shogun, just about everything that could be his, was his; which by extension included Sunpu Castle. However, I can remove that phrase. Let me know. Boneyard90 (talk) 00:31, 19 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref 48 - substantiated
  • Ref 52 - doesn't seem to mention the names Okiko or Meisho
    • Last line before heading CX (110): "...(1629), le Dairi renonca au trone en faveur de sa fille Kid si."
    • First line of Chapter 110: "Mei sio in ...nommée Kid si... avant son avenement au trone, etait fille du Dairi Go Midzou o-no in". The name Mei sio in, in which -in = honorific, is written here as "Meisho". Actually, the whole section is about Empress Meisho, or Dairi Mei Sio In.
    • However, I can and will now add an English-language source.Boneyard90 (talk) 00:43, 19 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

These are the only sources I can check as the rest are in Japanese or not online, but I'm a bit concerned at this point that the sources in general may not be accurately used to reference the article content. Lemurbaby (talk) 21:33, 18 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I hope I have adequately explained my use of references, or the additional references provide adequate clarification. Boneyard90 (talk) 00:57, 19 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support - I understand how tricky it can be, pulling together bits and pieces when sources are historic or the figure is not well covered (like my FAC on Rakoto Frah). This makes more sense now. Really nice work on an important historic and non-Western topic. Once you've addressed all the issues raised by other reviewers, you have my support. Lemurbaby (talk) 07:37, 20 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your help! Boneyard90 (talk) 15:16, 20 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Crisco 1492

Addressed comments from Crisco 1492 moved to talk

Comments I don't know as much about this era of Japanese history as I'd like to, so I can't comment on the accuracy of the article. However, it all looks pretty good. My comments are pretty minor:

  • As the 'name' section states that "Although details of position and nuance produce exacting interpretations of the three terms, any of them can be translated to the English title "Lady"", I think that it would be helpful to explain why she's called "Lady Saigō" by English-language writers (presumably the term was selected as the closest English equivalent, even if it is not strictly correct, or was a mistake by an early translator which has stuck)
    • At the moment, the best answer is "when she was named first consort of Tokugawa Ieyasu, the title "tsubone"... was appended to the surname", and further down it says, "she was accepted as the first consort of Ieyasu.[7][25] Based on this relationship... she became known by the respectful title of Saigō-no-Tsubone." I might have gone into too much explanation in the Name section, but I wanted to preempt the possibility of detailed debates over translation (which never materialized). But, I will begin looking for other sources that provide a better "why" behind the title. Boneyard90 (talk) 01:23, 20 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • I've added more explanation on the significance of tsubone, with references, in the Name section. Boneyard90 (talk) 17:59, 20 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • That looks good to me, but you could chop the sentence which begins with 'Translated directly, the term' as this is pretty clear from the previous sentence (also, it's not directly referenced, though the preceding references pretty much cover it ;) ) Nick-D (talk) 10:45, 21 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
        • Done. I added it as sort of a summary of the previous paragraph, and to answer editors like Arius1998 (see below) who run the kanji through Google-Translate or something; and also to preempt readers who like to add their own "literal" translations of varying accuracy. But, as you point out, it's covered. Boneyard90 (talk) 14:57, 21 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The third and fourth sentences in the 'Background' section start with "Following"
  • Are the 'see also' links necessary? (and can they be worked into the article so that they have some context?) Nick-D (talk) 01:02, 20 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • It would be difficult to fit them in smoothly, but I thought they were relevant. Azuchi-Momoyama period is a sub-period of Sengoku period, the period in which she lived. Nirengi Castle was another Saigo branch castle; Oeyo married Hidetada, so she was Lady Saigo's daughter-in-law, and among Japanophiles, Oeyo is fairly popular right now because of a TV movie made about her life; Tokugawa Iemitsu and Tokugawa Tadanaga were two notable descendants of Lady Saigo. Toyohashi, Aichi is the present-day city where some of the described events took place. So I thought they were relevant, but difficult to work into the text. However, I know See also sections are not always popular (not sure why), so I can remove any or all. Boneyard90 (talk) 01:23, 20 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • The one on the period seems clearly relevant, but the others are a bit difficult to follow without the context you've provided here (and the notable decedents should be in the section on that topic). I'd suggest removing all these links other than the first. Nick-D (talk) 10:45, 21 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
        • Removed the castle and the city. Suggested alternative: Moved the people to a list format with glosses, sub-section of "Notable descendants". Let me know what you think. I thought I'd give it a try, but I can still remove them, no problem. Boneyard90 (talk) 15:10, 21 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
        • I made the list of notable descendants, described above, and included all personages with English-Wikipedia articles, which you can see here. As they were all descendants of Tokugawa Hidetada, I figured it probably made more sense to move the entire list to his page, leaving just the text article. Let me know what you think. Boneyard90 (talk) 17:05, 21 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support All my comments are now addressed - great work with this article. Nick-D (talk) 07:26, 22 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Tentative support - I'm just confused. When I used the Japanese characters for Saigō-no-Tsubone in Google Translate, it would appear that it's either Saigo's station or Saigo's office. I think Tsubone is not simply a nobility rank but an imperial office as well, that is, if I'm basing on the said translation. The Japanese for Oai does appear love in Google Translate. And yes, what was the required age to say that a Japanese woman at the time had reached "adulthood"? Arius1998 (talk) 04:17, 20 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Not entirely sure about the answers to your other questions at the moment, but 愛 means "love" and 於 appears to be just a character used in women's names in pre-modern Japan. I'm not sure if it has anything to do with the simple honorific お/御. elvenscout742 (talk) 09:13, 20 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I have re-written and hopefully clarified some of the explanation on name & title. Yes, "tsubone" is also a place. I add referenced info about how it was the quarters for concubines, but the word for the place was also made into a person's title. We don't do that so much in English. It would be like using the same word for both the US President and the White House. But it still remains that the title "tsubone" is commonly translated as "Lady ~". I'll probably tweak the section a little more today. Boneyard90 (talk) 14:56, 20 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Also added referenced info on age of adulthood, and what it meant for the girl/woman. Boneyard90 (talk) 14:56, 20 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Delegate comments -- just a couple of things:


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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