Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/John B. Creeden/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was archived by David Fuchs via FACBot (talk) 11 December 2023 [1].

John B. Creeden

Nominator(s): Ergo Sum 15:14, 13 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about a Jesuit and university president who played a major role in the creation of the modern Georgetown University. He was responsible for the eventual creation of the School of Foreign Service and he founded Boston College Law School. He also drew up plans for what would be the creation of the Gothic section of Georgetown's campus. Ergo Sum 15:14, 13 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

File:Fox,_Donnelly,_Dolan,_Haran,_Creedan_1938.jpg: source link gives the license as CC BY-NC-ND, not BY. Nikkimaria (talk) 22:44, 16 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- Am I correct in understanding that that means it cannot be hosted on Commons? Ergo Sum 15:14, 17 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  - If that is the correct license, it would only be usable hosted locally under a fair-use claim. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:31, 18 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    - I've removed the image because it seems (based on this) that I can't upload a local version of the image on EnWiki because its licensing status prohibits non-commercial and non-derivative use. I will (unfortunately) nominate that image for deletion from Commons. Ergo Sum 17:00, 24 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
      - @Nikkimaria: Just wanted to let you know that I nominated this image for deletion from the Commons and several users pointed out to me that it actually is valid under both Italian and US law. Since it has survived deletion, I have returned the image to the article. Ergo Sum 22:47, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
        When and where was this first published? Nikkimaria (talk) 23:27, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
        I'm not sure, but according to the Italian copyright template, the copyright of photographs of people expire 20 years after creation, not publication. Ergo Sum 01:30, 29 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
        My question is more with regards to US status. The current US tag asserts publication between 1928 and 1963 - can that be demonstrated? Nikkimaria (talk) 02:27, 29 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
        Rather than attempt to paraphrase, I will defer to Richard Arthur Norton's explanation (pinging). Ergo Sum 13:09, 29 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
        Not seeing anything there that supports it having been legally published in this period, though - if it was not that tag would not apply. Nikkimaria (talk) 23:24, 29 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
        Forgive my ignorance, but if it is validly PD in Italy, which is where the image was created, then why does US copyright matter? Ergo Sum 13:03, 30 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
        Images hosted on Commons have to be free/PD in both the US and country of origin. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:02, 1 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
        Ok. Well so as not to hold up this nomination, I've removed the image for now. Ergo Sum 13:59, 3 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from HAL

Comments soon. ~ HAL333 14:43, 22 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hi HAL333, I was wondering if these were still on their way? Otherwise I shall be giving the "this is in danger of timing out" warning. Thanks. Gog the Mild (talk) 13:20, 4 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Long belated comments:

he also expanded - the 'also' isn't needed.
- Removed. Ergo Sum 17:45, 4 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
which later became the Woods College of Advancing Studies - the later isn't needed
- I do think it contributes something here, as it suggests that it was not known as that until much later. Otherwise, it would seem like it became Woods during his time in charge or soon thereafter. Ergo Sum 17:46, 4 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The caption starting President Calvin Coolidge... doesn't need a full-stop.
- Removed. Ergo Sum 17:46, 4 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
existing facilities under significant strain - what kind of strain? Clarify.
- Clarified that it was their capacity. Ergo Sum 17:48, 4 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
quadrangle would haven
- Fixed. Ergo Sum 17:47, 4 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Do we know what Creeden died of?
- I cannot find a source that says his cause of death. Ergo Sum 17:47, 4 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Looks great otherwise and is certainly of featured quality. ~ HAL333 17:42, 4 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you very much for your review, HAL333. Ergo Sum 17:48, 4 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Happy to support. ~ HAL333 18:04, 4 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Hal333 and Ergo Sum: please remember the tq template can't be used at FAC as it slows down load time and affects archives; right now, the entire FAC page is not accessible to all users, so I've switched out some. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:05, 10 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Dugan Murphy

I'll take a look and write some comments soon. Dugan Murphy (talk) 19:25, 27 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There are 3 spots that refer to Creeden as the dean of Georgetown College. That Wikilink redirects to Georgetown University College of Arts & Sciences, which says that it had that name from 1990 to 2022, long after Creeden passed away, but not the current name either. Seems you should either use the modern name or whatever the name was in Creeden's time.
- The school was known as Georgetown College for most of its history, from its founding until an known date in the mid-20th century. The school's infobox reflects this. Ergo Sum 14:55, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Linking President of Venezuela doesn't seem necessary to me. In fact, there seems to be a bit of MOS:OVERLINK in other places too, like philosophy, Catholic theology, Holy orders in the Catholic Church, Priesthood in the Catholic Church, New York City, head teacher, federal government of the United States, graduation, and secondary school.
- I've trimmed many of the links. Ergo Sum 14:57, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The sentence that includes "size of the campus, established the university's first" seems to be missing an "and".
- Fixed. Ergo Sum 14:57, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"He taught at Georgetown from 1897 to 1902": this being the first reference to Georgetown in the body, this should be written out with the university's full name with a Wikilink.
- Done. Ergo Sum 14:58, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Footnote A doesn't say anything that isn't said in the sentence to which it is attached, so it doesn't seem necessary.
- Consolidated. Ergo Sum 15:00, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
What's the connection between St. Joseph's Lamp and the Spanish Flu?
- Added detail about the lamp's history. Ergo Sum 15:13, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Is there anything about Calvin Coolidge's visit to Georgetown that is worth mentioning in the body?
- I don't believe so. Ergo Sum 15:14, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"Together with these concrete improvements" doesn't seem necessary. And the tone doesn't seem quite right for Wikipedia anyway.
- Removed. Ergo Sum 15:14, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"Would involve" and "would be" doesn't sound right. Given that we know it didn't happen, I recommend "would have involved" and "would have been" or a different rewording.
- Done. Ergo Sum 16:04, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"Despite the move away from Georgetown's collegiate campus, Creeden continued" indicates that Creeden moved, rather than the school.
- Clarified. Ergo Sum 15:36, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The sentence that starts "Following the renaming" is really long, even though it is pretty readable, regardless, and if you really really like it, I won't fight you over it, but I think a modern reader would appreciate breaking it up, if you're willing.
- I think it makes sense as one sentence, so I broke it up a bit with a semi-colon. Ergo Sum 15:38, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I think "for the creation of the school" would read better as "for creating the school"
- Done. Ergo Sum 15:39, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I don't recognize the title "Fr." Maybe spell it out?
- In the past, I remember someone at FAC telling me that WP deprecates usage of that title in articles, so I've replaced it with a brief aside. Ergo Sum 15:44, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"School of Foreign service": Shouldn't Service be capitalized?
- Fixed. Ergo Sum 15:39, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"personality was more suited" is an opinion that I think should be attributed. Perhaps it should be "personality he felt was more suited".
- Clarified. Ergo Sum 15:45, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The sentence mentioned in the above comment is a bit long and would probably be more readable as two sentences.
- Broke up and reorganized that sentence. Ergo Sum 15:46, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"The highest educational honor bestowed": does this mean that it is the highest honor that a foreign citizen could possibly achieve or that it is the highest honor ever yet-bestowed upon a foreign citizen?
- Clarified. Ergo Sum 16:01, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The sentence that starts " With the support of Dean" is a bit too long and hard to understand, particularly because of the parenthetical interjection. I recommend breaking it up and potentially rewording to remove the parentheses.
- Broke up and clarified the sentence. Ergo Sum 15:59, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"Creeden then went" seems an inapropriate way to start a new section, especially the last thing said was describing events following 1925 and this sentence mentions events starting 1924. Perhaps it should be "after leaving Georgetown, Creeden went".
- Rephrased. Ergo Sum 15:59, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Despite what I said earlier about overlinking, I find myself wondering exactly what a regent is. Perhaps link Regent#Other uses?
- Yes, the Regent article does not do a great job of describing how it is (mostly historically) used in Catholic higher education. I've linked to that section. Ergo Sum 15:48, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Novitiate is WP:DUPLINKed
- Fixed. Ergo Sum 15:47, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Why is the Academic Offices table at the end missing so many predecessors and successors?
- Unfortunately, it seems the succession of regents has been lost to history (at least as far as publicly accessible records are concerned), probably because it was such a unique and short-lived position in American Jesuit higher education. As for his position as dean, after quite a bit of digging, I was able to find out his predecessor and successor and added some detail and context to the main text. Ergo Sum 16:15, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Overall: I didn't review the images, citations, or sources. Though, I did glance at the sources, and they all looked pretty legit. I didn't notice any titles that seemed really Creeden-specific, so I did a really really basic search on Google Books, JSTOR, and my statewide library for titles and couldn't find anything. That is my way of saying that I am willing to believe that the sources listed represent a reasonably wide breadth of available scholarship on the topic. Though I knew absolutely nothing about Creeden or the schools mentioned before reading this article, the article itself doesn't seem to have any glaring holes in covering the man's life, so I think it is pretty comprehensive. Yet, it doesn't go into too much detail anywhere, I think. And the tone throughout is very encyclopedic and clear. Well done.

Fun fact that has no bearing on this nomination: Creeden's predecessor, Patrick Francis Healy, is the brother of James Augustine Healy, who was the bishop where I live for 25 years. I guide walking tours by his old cathedral and tell guests about Bishop Healy. He has an amazing story. Dugan Murphy (talk) 21:49, 27 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Very interesting. And a small world. The Healy family is quite fascinating. Thank you for your review. Ergo Sum 16:17, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

No problem. I support this nomination based on the reasons stated above. If you have the time to do some reviewing of your own, this current FAC nomination of mine is in need of attention. I thank you in advance if you are able to take a look at the article and leave some comments. Dugan Murphy (talk) 22:12, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Source review

Spot-check upon request. Source formatting seems consistent and sources seem reliable, but I notice that a rather large amount of sources is affiliated with Georgetown and the Jesuits - is he primarily discussed by these? Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 09:34, 10 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Ergo Sum, are you planning to respond to Jo-Jo's concern about the sources associated with Georgetown and the Jesuits? FrB.TG (talk) 11:20, 23 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Apologies, I meant to get back to this and it slipped my mind. This was an issue that was broached in my last FAC. It appears that Creeden is discussed in detail primarily by Jesuit-affiliated sources, some directly published by the Jesuits, others published by institutions affiliated with the Jesuits, and others stilled only written by people affiliated with the Jesuits. That is, there are various levels of Jesuit control over the publications. In any event, it does not appear to me that any of the sources used engage in hagiography and generally bear inidicia of reliability. Ergo Sum 04:13, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm, tough to say. If substantial coverage by independent sources was a requirement for FA, I doubt this would pass. As it stands the article does not mention anything that would make me demand independent coverage. I've done some looking around myself and there are a fair few sources discussing political activities of the university and mentioning Creeden; did he play a role in them?

Also, from a close paraphrase perspective, I wonder if "On November 20, 1921, Creeden received Ferdinand Foch, the French marshal and Commander-in-Chief of the Allied Armies, and presented him with an honorary Doctor of Civil and Canon Laws degree, as well as a golden sword on behalf of the American Jesuits." is unduly similar to the source's "On November 20, 1921, Creeden received French Marshal Ferdinand Foch at Georgetown and awarded him an honorary degree of Doctor of Canon and Civil Laws. Marshal Foch was also presented a gold sword on behalf of the American Society of Jesus", it's admittedly not the easiest sentence to paraphrase.

Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:49, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed, not the easiest to paraphrase. I tweaked the phrasing a bit to make it less close to the source. I will take a look at those sources. Ergo Sum 20:04, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Jo-Jo Eumerus: I have gone through those sources and everything I have found either is already in the article or is not really worthy of mention in a biographical article about Creeden. Ergo Sum 22:49, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Closing note: This candidate has been archived, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^talk 19:04, 11 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.