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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 15:10, 27 April 2010 [1].

Gustav Mahler

[edit]

Gustav Mahler (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): Brianboulton (talk) 15:37, 21 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

7 July 2010 sees the 150th anniversary of the composer Gustav Mahler's birth. I would very much like to nominate this article as TFA on that date. The article has been around for a long time; much of its early development was due to users Pfistermeister and Andy M. Wang. I have expanded and refashioned the article to meet today's FA criteria; it has recently been through a thorough peer review here, for which I am most grateful. Whether you like Mahler's music or not (surprisingly many don't), he is a hugely influential musical figure; I hope the article does him justice. Comments welcome. Brianboulton (talk) 15:37, 21 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

looking good however music file File:Gustav_Mahler_-_Trombone_Solo_from_3rd_Symphony,_1st_movement.ogg has licensing information as a dead link 18:18, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

  • Support - A superb article. The British spelling is somewhat jarring to this American, but I'm sure the reverse is true, so I have no complaint. The "Philharmonic" subsection of "Vienna, 1897-1907" seems out of place, as we read of Mahler's departure for New York in 1907, and then jump back nine years to learn about his abbreviated association with the Vienna Philharmonic's subscription series. I'd suggest considerable shortening of this paragraph and weaving it into the narrative above. However, I don't feel strongly about this, and my support is not conditional on any change Brian may or may not choose to make here. This is a very fine article. Truly Mahler's time has come (on Wikipedia).--Paul (talk) 18:47, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Thanks for the support. The point you make is reasonable; however, it is not unusual in a biography to relate parallel experiences one after the other. In this case I wanted to draw the clear distinction between Mahler's highly successful conductorship of the Hofoper and his relatively inglorious period in charge of the Vienna Phil. So I'd prefer not to shorten or weave the two together, though this is a personal choice; I'm sure it could also work differently. Brianboulton (talk) 21:04, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments.

  • "During his ten years in Vienna, Mahler experienced opposition and hostility, much of it from the anti-Semitic press—he had converted to Catholicism from Judaism." I don't understand the connective logic of the dash.
  • "The Russian Dmitri Shostakovich and the British Benjamin Britten were among many later 20th century composers who admired and were influenced by Mahler, in whose memory the International Gustav Mahler Institute was established in 1955." "British" is a bump here ("Briton" would be correct but old-fashioned). Hyphen for "20th-century" required. The last clause is an awkward add-on, swivelling on the word "Mahler", approached and left from quite different angles.
    • There are problems with alliteration ("British Benjamin Britten") and assonance ("British" and "Britten") which make for awkward-sounding prose. I have reworded, removing "British" and "Russian" designations. I have also separated the Institute information from the rest. Brianboulton (talk) 14:43, 23 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "of this early work"—"early" is redundant in the context, I think. Should it be "have" instead of "has"?

I haven't read further yet. Tony (talk) 12:59, 23 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • PS the orchestral excerpt arranged for trombone and organ? I can't bear to listen to it. Doesn't it degrade the music horribly? Tony (talk) 13:03, 23 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • It's not good, but after much searching it appears to be the only free version of Mahler that's around. However, you are right; the article is better without it, and I have removed it. Perhaps in time something better will be available. Brianboulton (talk) 14:02, 23 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Excellent article on an important figure. I offer these comments. I also have no objection to my comments being collapsed once we've finished the discussion.:

Lede:
  • "his status as a conductor was established beyond question". Obviously a favourable status, but I would say so and also avoid the passive voice, which I personally hate as covering up (in other articles, of course) all sorts of sloppiness.
    • He is described as a "leading conductor" in the opening sentence, so I think the nature of his "status" is already clear. On the question of passive voice, I don't think it is objectionable here, but please suggest an alternative phrasing if you think the matter is significant. Brianboulton (talk) 20:58, 23 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "his own music" I was going to go ahead and strike the word "own", but then I saw the point you were trying to make. On balance, still, I would take out "own" as not really adding much meaning.
  • "After a ban in much of Europe during the Nazi era," Were there really bans outside German-controlled territory? If not, is that "much of Europe"?
  • "and a period of relative neglect, the music was discovered and championed by a new generation in the post-war age." It seems to me that an knowledgeable reader (like me) would see three periods here: Nazi era, then a period of neglect, then a period of popularity which still continues. If so, I would modify the words "post-war", I see that as 1945 onwards, rather than 1945 plus a period of neglect, onwards. Also, do you really need to make the point about Mahler's postwar (or whatever) rise twice in successive sentences?
    • I have modified the wording. The "relative neglect" (note relative) covers the period broadly from Mahler's death to after 1945, and includes the Nazi ban. I hope the new wording makes this clear, but I want to consider AuntieRuth's comments further, before finalising the phrasing. Brianboulton (talk) 20:58, 23 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "rising importance" Is this a Britishism? I would probably say "increasing importance", but as the article is written in British English, disregard if so.
  • "the New York Metropolitan Opera". Not its name. Suggest New York's Metropolitan Opera. This also occurs in the body of the article. I would also strike the word "Orchestra" after Philharmonic.
"own music output is relatively small" Perhaps a more dignified term instead of "output"? Collected works? Oeuvre?
Early life:
  • "of humble circumstances" Consider putting "and were" before this, or otherwise rephrasing the sentence.
  • "and the regular band concerts given by the local military garrison." Perhaps rearrange to "and the regular concerts given by the local military garrison's band."
  • "Many of these elements would later become parts of his musical vocabulary." I know what you mean here, but I'm not certain you are actually saying it. What you mean is that these melodies, or perhaps parts of them and melodic tricks from them, would show up in his works. Perhaps a more specific rephrase would help.
    • I have altered "become" to "provide"; I'm not sure that any other rephrasing is necessary. What I am saying is that the aforementioned elements (street songs, folk tunes, dances and band music) all entered into Mahler's music. Brianboulton (talk) 21:56, 23 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "failed to settle there" Perhaps "was unhappy there"?
  • "Despite having a reputation as something of a bully" I read a "despite" phrase as something of a contradiction to the phrase following, and see no contradiction (nor great relevance) to Bernhard being a bit of a bully, yet be supportive of his son's career. We haven't fallen into the Mozart articles by mistake, have we? !} Hoeever, if the person he was bullying was Gustav, that should perhaps be fleshed out a bit.
  • "gained his first conducting experiences" I would have said "experience" but this is perhaps again a Britishism.
  • "As a student," Surely surplus language?
  • "unable to submit" A common phrase used in such situations is "unable or unwilling".
  • "never his formal pupil" Suggest "never formally his pupil"
  • "though there is no evidence that he attended any of Wagner's operas when they were staged in Vienna." This phrase carries an implicit negative to my ears. If it is simply not known whether he saw Wagner's works while in Vienna, I would phrase it that way.
    • My initial phrasing actually missed the source's main point, which was that Mahler was more interested in the sound of Wagner than the staging of his works. I have added this, and incorporated it with your suggested wording. Brianboulton (talk) 21:56, 23 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
More later. You know me. Picky, picky.--Wehwalt (talk) 16:30, 23 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Okay.

Early conducting career:
  • "had told him" strike "had"
  • "In the following year" I would strike "In" or else say "In 1881".
    • BritEng requires the "In", but I'll make it "In 1881..."
  • "Back in Vienna," I guess we are now after Laibach ended. A word or two on why it ended after six months might be helpful for continuity reasons.
"An ardent but ultimately unfulfilled love affair" A bit of ambiguity here. Are we saying "unfulfilled" because they did not have sex, or did not marry? I guess probably the latter (and most likely both!), but I would rephrase.
    • "Unfulfilled" means no happy conclusion. I find this quite hard to rephrase, as the sources don't give much information other than that the affair ended unhappily, though exactly why is not clear. This was a very minor incident in Mahler's life, and I can't honestly see the ambiguity in the phrasing. Brianboulton (talk) 23:10, 23 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "which became the text of his song cycle" Suggest inserting the word "later" before "became".
  • "Without a post, Mahler returned to Prague" I assume he returned to the Neues Deutsches Theater? I would state the theatre name, rather than the city name.
  • "Guido Adler" Has article on German Wikipedia, here suggest interwiki link. So does Die drei Pintos.
    • Die drei Pintos is linked to its English Wikipedia article - what would be the purpose of linking to its German equivalent? Nor do I see much value in a link on Adler to an article in German. Probably a better idea simply to redlink him, then maybe someone will create an article. Brianboulton (talk) 23:10, 23 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In the years of Mahler's early conducting work" Suggest more effective as "In the early years of Mahler's conducting work"
  • Wunderhorn Somewhere in there, can you put in a interwiki link to de:Des Knaben Wunderhorn (Mahler)?
    • Again, why a link to a German article? Another problem is the distinction between the general folk-poem collection Des Knaben Wunderhorn, and Mahler's song collection of the same name, two quite different entities. I'll check out the Wunderhorn links again. Brianboulton (talk) 23:10, 23 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "second part of the Ring cycle" Suggest "remainder of the Ring cycle" due to the confusion caused by the fact that the Ring cycle is staged as a prologue and three nights, so by some accounts, "the second part" might mean Die Walkure (too lazy for umlauts) and for some Siegfried.
  • "in the autumn" As Australians can't keep their seasons straight, we are admonished to avoid stating a season. Suggest "In late ..."
  • Is it possible to mention when a Mahler work was first conducted by somebody else?

That brings me up to Vienna. Excellent work.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:01, 23 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Vienna
  • Hans Richter. It might well be worth mentioning he was the original conductor of the Ring cycle.
  • "Vienna's first uncut version of the complete Ring cycle." Surely "complete" is unneeded?
  • "in his new status". If "office" doesn't work, what about "position"?
  • "whose list of demands". Suggest strike "list of"
  • "In fact, attendances rose sharply in Mahler's first season," I'd strike "In fact". I really don't think that the fact attendence rose (so many other possible factors) proves that Mahler was or was not capable of protecting German music. If you want to be fancy, and if the source will support it, I'd consider saying "German art", as an echo of Hans Sach's diatribe at the end of Meistersinger.
  • "Maiernigg" Another interwiki link to de wiki is in order. Also for Das klagende Lied. Of course if you don't like them, feel free to disregard, but I found them useful in the Rudolf Wolters article.
  • "the scandals about him and every young woman who aspired to sing in opera" This might be worth mentioning outside the quotation, if such scandals plagued Mahler.
    • This, I am sure, is Almaspeak - exaggeration for effect. Having ploughed my way through many biographies, I know that Mahler had affairs, but he wasn't by any means the Lothario Alma implies. Let it rest, I think> Brianboulton (talk) 00:00, 24 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Later years
  • "position with the Metropolitan". Speaking as a New Yorker born and a subscriber to the Met for over a decade (though not anymore), I rarely if ever heard it called "the Metropolitan", a phrase which I would be more likely to associate with the art museum. I'm sure it is called that sometimes, but it is not common. Suggest "the opera company".
  • "the last of his works premiered in his lifetime." Awkward. Perhaps "the last of his work to premiere in his lifetime"
  • "The International Gustav Mahler Society was founded in 1955 in Vienna," Perhaps move to music section?

That's it for now. I will not get to do the music section today, I will complete it as time permits, hopefully over the weekend. Hope these are helpful and expect to support. Very interesting article.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:04, 23 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thank you for your meticulous auditing. Where I have not commented you can take it that I have adopted your recommendation, or as near as makes no difference. I look forward to receiving the rest of your comments presently. Brianboulton (talk) 00:00, 24 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Lovely article. Here's me, being picky:

.... As a composer he acted as a bridge between the 19th century Austro-German tradition and the modernism of the early 20th century.... In character, style, and technique (or whatever), his compositions bridged the Austro-German tradition of the 19th century and the modernism of the early 20th century.
After a ban in much of Europe during the Nazi era, and a period of relative neglect, the music was discovered and championed by a new generation in the post-war age. ...it is unclear what is banned here. The Nazis banned his compositions in much of Europe. After the war, his music was discovered and championed by ....
school reports from the Iglau Gymnasium portray him as absent-minded... portrayed.
  • Done
failed to settle there and soon returned to Iglau.... settle? He wouldn't live there? He didn't fit in? He didn't like it?
  • Amended to "was unhappy"
a bitter personal blow when his younger brother Ernst... a bitter personal loss...?
  • Done
Despite having a reputation as something of a bully.... something of a bully? Despite having a reputation as a bully.
  • I have removed the reference to Bernhard's "bullying". The evidence isn't strong enough to sustain it. Basically, older sources follow Alma Mahler's "he was a bully" line, later sources look for evidence to support Alma's assertions and don't find anything conclusive. Hence my cautious wording. But the implication is best removed altogether. Brianboulton (talk) 00:00, 24 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
the first sentences of the student days paragraph is "was this" and "was that". Mahler auditioned for...Berhard Mahler supported his son's....
Hugo Wolf comma with whom...
  • Done
cantata should be wikilinked?
  • Done

More later. Auntieruth55 (talk) 19:35, 23 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

(Note: Auntie, to help keep this page to a reasonable length, perhaps further minor comments – "nitpicks" – could be noted on the talkpage?). Brianboulton (talk) 08:33, 24 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Image review: per requests, I have been vetting the article's images for a few months; all are correctly hosted on our servers, and are verifiably in the public domain or licensed appropriately. Jappalang (talk) 01:11, 24 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you Brianboulton (talk) 11:21, 24 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment regarding the German wiki, I only meant to suggest those with respect to those where there is no English equivalent. I personally believe it is superior to a red link, as at least it gives info, which the reader can run through google translate. If you feel otherwise, no problem.--Wehwalt (talk) 05:29, 24 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have added the German link to Adler. The other articles have English wikipedia equivalents, I believe. Brianboulton (talk) 11:21, 24 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I removed the link because a redlink is better (to make people start an article), and then I see there is an article - I wonder what the problem was. Hekerui (talk) 17:52, 24 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
A complete hash on my part, I fear. Thanks for tidying it up. Brianboulton (talk) 18:16, 24 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Further comments (Tony):

  • "This technique is also used by Mahler's Danish contemporary Carl Nielsen. Mahler first employed the device ..."—past tense "was" to avoid the clash?
    • Agreed and done
  • "and which is often used "to symbolise the gradual ascendancy of a certain value by progress from one key to another over the whole course of a symphony""—What do you believe Cooke meant by "a certain value"? Just before this, do you think the readers will know what "symphonic conflict" refers to?
    • I interpret "a certain value" as meaning a particular musical mood. Cooke was writing for an informed readership, but I feel the quotation can be readily understood in the context of this article, given previous reference to the "struggle" inherent in Mahler's music. Likewise I see no problem in the general reader understanding the reference to "symphonic conflict". Brianboulton (talk) 11:16, 24 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The Czech composer-journalist Max Brod has identified Jewish tunes and rhythms in Mahler's music, perhaps unsurprising given Mahler's origins. Musicologist Vladimír Karbusický maintains that the composer's Jewish roots had lasting effects on his creative output; he pinpoints the central part of the third movement of the First Symphony as the most characteristically "Yiddish" music in Mahler's work.[137]" Is the first statement attributed to ref 137 too? Any chance the two statements could be reverted and the "unsurprising" bit dropped? Err ... not sure ... something like: "Musicologist Vladimír Karbusický maintains that the composer's Jewish roots had lasting effects on his creative output; he pinpoints the central part of the third movement of the First Symphony as the most characteristically "Yiddish" music in Mahler's work. The Czech composer-journalist Max Brod has identified Jewish tunes and rhythms in Mahler's music."
    • Ref [137] covers the Brod statement, which is further reinforced in Blaukopf, p. 140. I'm happy to accept your proposed reorganisation of the phrasing, with the addition of the word "also" before "identified", and will add the Blaukopf reference for good measure. Brianboulton (talk) 11:16, 24 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Was that in private correspondence to Sibelius (early in "Style")?
    • This widely recorded remark, according to Sibelius's biographer, was made when the two composers met in Helsinki in October 1907. However, it doesn't seem necessary to include such specific detail in this article.Brianboulton (talk) 11:16, 24 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't have Grove, but how does the "Style" section compare with it? Tony (talk) 08:42, 24 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • The last point is difficult to answer, since I didn't write my section to compare with Franklin's article. His "Musical Style" section precedes lengthy discussions of individual works. It covers some of the ground which I have summarised, though it is not written in an accessible, general encyclopedic style. I have drawn on it, as well as other sources, in compiling my own section. Brianboulton (talk) 11:16, 24 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments I have only read the lead and the Early life section. Here are my comments so far:

  • The French spelling of "oeuvre" is "œuvre", I'm not sure which is correct here (since you have italicized the word, I took it that you meant to use the French word)
  • You use two different spellings of "peddlar", be consistent.
  • The sentence containing the word "Isidor" seems to have a problem.
  • "Kalischt (now Kaliště)" and "Iglau (now Jihlava" -> In the first instance you link the new name, in the second you link the first. Be consistent.
    • Fixed
  • Of the 12 children, ... only six -> Be consistent
  • The article seems to not make use of the Oxford comma. However, "tunes of the day, folk songs, dances, and the regular concerts" uses it.
    • Fixed
  • Maybe link "libretto"? Fixed,

128.232.247.32 (talk) 20:12, 24 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm fine with six and 12. Tony (talk) 04:43, 25 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for these points - you have a sharp eye. If you intend to offer more comments, can I suggest that those relating to punctuation, linking or minor prose matters be posted on the article's talkpage? This would help prevent this FAC page from becoming excessively long (it's pretty long already). I can assure you that any points raised on the talkpage will be addressed. Points of significance (e.g. questions on matters of fact, reliability of sources, comprehensiveness of coverage etc) should of course be brought here. Brianboulton (talk) 23:37, 24 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I will do the same.--Wehwalt (talk) 23:43, 24 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support and I have. A few minor quibbles are on the article talk page, but I see no need to wait to enter my support. Very impressive article about an important musical figure. Definitely deserves promotion and its day as TFA in 2 1/2 months. Well done indeed.--Wehwalt (talk) 00:15, 25 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Source review All sources appear reliable and otherwise appropriate for use. Very impressive, actually.--Wehwalt (talk) 00:47, 25 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • You are a maximal hyphenater (I almost pointed out "his more experienced fellow-conductor"), which is fine. So why "composing was a spare time activity"? And is there any better way of saying it? Can't think of one. Oh, and Support. Well done indeed; please keep going on music articles.
  • "which included pieces by relatively unknown composers such as Hermann Goetz, Wilhelm Kienzl and the Italian Lorenzo Perosi." Ickypooh. No wonder the orchestra was complaining. Tony (talk) 05:03, 25 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support Jakob.scholbach (talk) 10:07, 25 April 2010 (UTC). This article is very good, as far as I non-musicologist can tell. Some comments:[reply]

  • Freischutz should be Freischütz.
  • The first sentence in the Prague and Leipzig section could perhaps be smoothened--it is not immediately clear (to me) why or whether the N.D.T. is sort of an antagonist of C.N.T.
  • Also, here and elsewhere, German terms should probably be translated at their first occurrence. (Mostly it is well-done.) Examples: Neues Deutsches Theater, Kapellmeister
  • Perhaps it is worth including a portrait of M's character at some point? (In addition to the mentions of his demanding lead of the various orchestras).
  • I don't understand "in the event, Nikisch's illness". Just write "N's illness"?
  • I'm not sure the locution "Apprentice composer" and later "Mature composer" (subsection headings) is appropriate, given that already his first symphs are considered quite mature.
  • "had proved that he was not a composer" -- perhaps reword to "had proved not to be ..." would eliminate the question what "he" refers to
  • I faintly remember that Todtenfeier was played at von Bülow's funeral? If so, it might be worth including?
    • I'd say that's extremely unlikely. When Mahler played the piano version to von Bülow in 1891, it seems that the old man hated it: "If that's music, then I know nothing about music!" Brianboulton (talk) 13:48, 25 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • The "Three creative periods" section is, to me, the weakest part of the article. In the first place, I would expect it to be more detailed. The development of his style is described, but quite briefly. It would be good to have more on this, possibly underlined by some sample scores or even audio samples? (The latter is surely beyond the scope of the FA requirements, but perhaps we can convince some CD labels to "donate" (pieces) of historical recordings etc. to WIkimedia Commons for 2011?)
    • I think that what you are proposing would be a considerable undertaking that obviously could not be done within the timescale of this FAC. Nor am I convinced that it is necessary. The purpose of this section is to provide, in summary style, an outline structure of Mahler's composing life. The kind of depth you suggest might be more appropriate for a daughter article—this present article, at 88kb and 8,700 words, is already beginning to push at recommended size limits. As to audio files, I am entirely with you there, and will continue to search for appropriate and usable illustrations. Again, however, this will take time. Brianboulton (talk) 13:48, 25 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Also, that section is based on the analysis of only one musicologist, Cooke. Is it possible to balance his view by other ones?
  • Wikilink Max Brod
  • I think there should be something on the Alma problem.
    • Rather than extend the text, I have added a footnote that includes a long quote from Carr and also provides a link to the Alma problem article. That useful article, incidentally, would benefit greatly if someone would deal with its entire lack of inline citations. Brianboulton (talk) 13:48, 25 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your support and your helpful suggestions which I have done my best to incorporate into the article. Where I have not commented, I have merely implemented your suggestions.

Note: Because of the somewhat extended nature of this review, here is a Wehwalt-style summary as of Sunday 25 April: image review OK, sources review OK, and eleven supports. Brianboulton (talk) 13:57, 25 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Brian, I don't know what the final line about "Authority control" is; please drop me a note on my talk. Does that belong in External links? Also, some Volume numbers have commas, others don't. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:52, 27 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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