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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 19 August 2022 [1].

Donkey Kong Country

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Nominator(s): JOEBRO64 and ♦ jaguar 16:33, 7 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Donkey Kong Country is one of those rare (ba-dum-chiss) video games where it's impossible to overstate its influence. It transformed Donkey Kong from a dusty, archaic product of the olden days into a multimillion-dollar franchising juggernaut, turned the tide of the 16-bit console wars by giving players a taste of 3D graphics well before they could actually play next-generation hardware, and elevated Rare from a tiny, unknown studio into one of the video game industry's premier developers. Its reputation has floundered a bit over the years (thanks in part to a seemingly baseless claim that Donkey Kong's legendary creator, Shigeru Miyamoto, despised it) but it remains an important game that defined every subsequent Donkey Kong game and set a new standard for how video game graphics would be judged.

Jaguar and I initiated plans to revitalize and expand this article after it badly deteriorated in the years following its initial GA promotion, and lo and behold, here is the finished result (with some very helpful copyediting by Popcornfud). I believe it's the most comprehensive treatment of the subject on the internet, documenting a copious number of interviews, sales reports, contemporary reviews, and whatnot. Now, let's get into some monkey business. JOEBRO64 16:33, 7 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from SatDis

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Apologies that I do not have a lot of time for comments, but I have left some notes below:

  • The lead reads excellently.
  • "Level tropes" - can "tropes" be described in more detail, like "location", "design theme"?
  • Can you clarify why "Contest game mode" and "Team game mode" have capital letters?
  • "Rare assembled a team of 12, and production started around August 1993. The first demo was playable by November 1993." - these feel like three short sentences when read together. Can any clauses be combined or elaborated?
    • I've combined them into "After Rare assembled a team of 12 (the largest in its history at that point), production started around August 1993, and the first demo was playable by November 1993." JOEBRO64 12:13, 10 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "change his composition methods based on it, which played on a role on Donkey Kong Country" - I'm not sure if this sentence is maybe too long, but the final part has confused me. What exactly played a role?
  • "which lasted from 23 to 25 June 1994." - maybe "took place" or "occurred" instead of "lasted"?
  • In reception, [79][85][86][74], just reorder.
  • "as well as Game Boy Printer support.[104][103]" same here.
  • "with Entertainment Weekly writing" - I've been told not to include verbs with -ing like this, but not sure here.

Just a few notes, hopefully some help. SatDis (talk) 06:57, 9 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the comments - should get to them later today. I'll try to review Wizards of Waverly Place by tomorrow JOEBRO64 06:44, 10 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@SatDis: all done JOEBRO64 12:19, 10 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks @TheJoebro64: your responses to the comments above have been approached diligent. Some of those confusing sentences are now much clearer. I am now happy to support this article on its prose and formatting. Well done and thanks for the interesting read on Donkey Kong! SatDis (talk) 04:35, 11 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Media review from SNUGGUMS

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I might review other aspects later, but here's something to start with. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 03:59, 11 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@SNUGGUMS: thank you for the review! I've responded above JOEBRO64 12:21, 11 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
My pleasure, and to elaborate on the audio sample used, 30 seconds is the longest possibly allowed for tracks 5 minutes or longer. For any song shorter than that, you can only use a portion that's 10% or less of its total duration. This is why I didn't know for sure whether the half-minute piece here was within limits. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 12:29, 11 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
ah, I'll trim it if that's the case. I just need to check how long the actual track is JOEBRO64 12:39, 11 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The track is officially 3:30, so I chopped off 9 seconds. Should be good now! JOEBRO64 12:47, 11 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, that is satisfactory, and the media review passes as a result. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 21:12, 11 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Funk

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Yep! FunkMonk (talk) 12:33, 14 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • You could mention that the player can swap between the two characters at will.
  • Perhaps not a big deal, but maybe link the different kinds of animals mentioned in the article?
  • Is there no Brute Force article to link?
  • Link Game Boy at first mention.
  • "are made Donkey Kong Country a side-scrolling platformer because the staff had grown up playing Nintendo's Super Mario games" Must have been extremely young staff if they "grew up" playing games released just a few years before?
    • Yeah, Gregg Mayles mentions several times in his interviews that the Rare staff was pretty young (including that he was only 22, so he would've been a teenager when Super Mario Bros. came out). The bit in particular comes his quote that "We wanted it to be a side-scroller because we'd all grown up playing Mario games and just wanted to make one of our own. So, kind of putting Donkey Kong in that style of game and trying to bring it up to date... we wanted it to be like a very modern feeling" around the 10:20 mark in the cited video. JOEBRO64 14:13, 13 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Mayles said "we thought a second character could perform this function, look visually impressive, and give the player a feeling that they were not alone"" It seems you don't explain explicitly anywhere that the two characters are visible on the screen at the same time.
  • "Rambi the Rhino" and "Squawks the Parrot", should the animal type really be capitalised?
  • "To develop Donkey Kong's movements, Rare staff spent hours at the nearby Twycross Zoo watching and videotaping gorillas,[28] but found their movements were unsuitable for a fast game, and instead based the animations loosely on a horse's gallop.[33]" This seems to be especially about his runcycle? Not much horse-like about his other movements...
  • Mark Betteridge just links to Rare. You could present his occupation too, as you do with other people mentioned.
  • "Rare avoided mentioning that Cranky was the original Donkey Kong in the game and marketing materials, fearing that Nintendo would disapprove of the idea." I'm pretty sure it was mentioned in the manual, though?
    • Yeah, though I can't find any sources that confirm that—Mayles doesn't mention it in the interview. The instruction manual is usually one of the last things made in the development process so I'd imagine this was after Nintendo found out and was cool with it. JOEBRO64 14:13, 13 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Would seem relevant to mention the connection as stated in the manual there then? It's under his entry here:[3] FunkMonk (talk) 14:25, 13 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
That should work. Done JOEBRO64 18:49, 13 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is it worth mentioning under legacy or something that DK's redesigned appearance was used in Donkey Kong (1994 video game) before the Rare game was released?
    • Donkey Kong '94 actually uses his original design, the only difference being that he sports the tie (which, of course, Donkey Kong Country would popularize), but from the sound of it, Miyamoto suggested the tie specifically for Donkey Kong Country. I can't think of a way to mention it without taking away focus from Donkey Kong Country and I feel like it's minor enough that it could be classified as mere trivia in regards to Country. JOEBRO64 14:13, 13 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The artists began by rendering the characters in NURBS using PowerAnimator" Modelling might be a better term, since you later use rendering for another process.
  • Perhaps link spritesheet somewhere, maybe by " nimation for each sprite".
  • How many artists were there?
  • It depends how 'artists' is defined. The game's credits list six different staff members who worked on objects, background design, and graphics manipulation. This article's infobox, which I think is more accurate, lists a firm four. I can't find anything definite in the sources. I'm not sure I can confidently insert a figure into the article's prose (if that's what you were suggesting). Perhaps Joe knows for sure? ♦ jaguar 17:41, 14 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
If the number can't be found, nothing to do. FunkMonk (talk) 08:39, 15 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "used the machines using" Any way to vary instead of double "use"?
  • "Rare attempted to keep the look of the levels consistent so different landscapes would not be right next to each other." What is meant by this, so tha progress would make sense from level to level in the overworld, or within levels?
  • it appears you went with UK English, but there are inconsistencies, such as "favorite" instead of "favourite", and you mix "ise" and "ize" endings, this should be checked throughout.
  • You have a music section, but little to nothing about sound effects?
The most I remember finding about the sound effects was who provided the Kongs'/Kremings' voice clips, that Tim Stamper had Wise include environmental sounds in the music since they couldn't be played directly in the game, and that Rare wanted real animal noises but had to settle for Betteridge's monkey clips because Rare couldn't capture them with their microphone at the zoo, all of which is discussed in the article. Video game sound design in general isn't something that is really discussed that much, unfortunately - but I'll wait to see what Jag can pull up. JOEBRO64 17:47, 14 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
If it can't be found, that's of course just how it is. FunkMonk (talk) 08:39, 15 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Meh, I hate to disappoint but I couldn't find anything worthwhile to compliment what already has been mentioned throughout the article. I've added a visit to Twycross Zoo right at the bottom of my bucket list, though. ♦ jaguar 20:52, 15 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "A Game Boy port was planned but retooled into a separate game, Donkey Kong Land (1995), after the programmer Paul Machacek convinced Rare that it would be a better use of resources and expand the potential audience.[63]" Seems tacked on in the context section, doesn't it make more sense under aftermath or something like that?
  • The footnotes should have citations too.
  • It is generally advised that pictured individuals face towards the text, rather than away from it, as is the case with Shigeru Miyamoto here.
  • I've never heard of that? I tried moving it to the left but it squashed the next subsection, and some people frown on doing that. I've replaced it with another image of the handsome Japanese man. ♦ jaguar 21:07, 15 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The guideline is here:[4] FunkMonk (talk) 21:30, 15 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Kotaku said Donkey Kong Country was an event could not be replicated in modern" Missing "that could"?
  • "convert 3D models into SNES sprites without losing detail" Seems a bit of a stretch, perhaps with little loss of detail or similar?
  • "Rare developed two sequels for the SNES, Donkey Kong Country 2: Diddy's Kong Quest (1995) and Donkey Kong Country 3: Dixie Kong's Double Trouble! (1996). After a hiatus, during which Rare was acquired by Nintendo competitor Microsoft, Retro Studios revived the series with Donkey Kong Country Returns (2010) for the Wii and Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze (2014) for the Wii U." I would expect to see the N64 game listed here, before the hiatus?

Thank you for the comments, FunkMonk. All have been addressed so far. ♦ jaguar 21:17, 15 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Other comments from SNUGGUMS

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  • All GameBoy release dates (both Color and Advance) need to be cited somewhere, preferably within article body, but even within the infobox is better than not having any refs for them at all
  • "18 months" from "work on Donkey Kong Country over 18 months" doesn't sound like accurate math when work is said to have begun around August 1993 before a November 1994 release. Those timeframes are actually 15 months apart. Can you pinpoint a day or even month when production finished? That would help narrow down a more likely start time.
    • So this is a little confusing and I can see why it needs to be clarified: the 18 month figure is the total amount of time it took for the game to evolve from concepts into the final product, while the August 1993 date is when work on the game itself actually started. I've clarified this in prose. JOEBRO64 18:35, 15 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • The use of "cited" from "frequently cited as one of the greatest video games" (both from lead and "Retrospective assessments") reads awkwardly. You'd be better off with something like "considered", "deemed", "perceived", or "ranked".
  • I'm a bit surprised the list of subsequent DK games in the lead doesn't include Donkey Kong 64 considering how that also became quite popular
  • Within the first paragraph of "Gameplay", it feels repetitive to start three consecutive sentences with "the"
  • Remove the colon from "Buddies include: Rambi"
  • You're using semi-colons excessively, and the second sentence from the last paragraph of "Gameplay" is quite a mouthful! You can split that apart by changing the semi-colons into periods.
  • Try to change things up for the second paragraph of "Design" per my above comments on "Gameplay"
  • "too great a departure"..... I assume you mean "too much" or "too big" here for Diddy Kong's design, and either of those would work better than "great"
  • "It cost an estimated US$1 million to produce and, at the time, had the most man hours ever invested in a video game, 22 years; in 2019, Gregg Mayles said this number would be impossible in the modern game industry." is another overly long sentence. See my above recommendation on how splitting can fix it.
  • "GamePro said it would be extraordinarily popular during the 1994 holiday shopping season." from "Reception" doesn't really tell us anything about whether the reviewer liked this game, and same goes for GameFan predicting influence
    • I've removed the GamePro one as I couldn't figure out a way to reword it, and reworded the GameFan one to be more about what it says the review thought of its quality JOEBRO64 20:53, 15 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • You can probably guess what's wrong with "Consumers were unfamiliar with 3D graphics at the time; according to Official Nintendo Magazine, by bringing next-generation graphics to the SNES just 12 days before the PlayStation's Japanese launch, Donkey Kong Country persuaded consumers that an immediate upgrade was unnecessary." from "Legacy"
  • Unless Mekazoo, Kaze and the Wild Masks, and Kroko Bongo: Tap to the Beat! are likely to warrant articles in the near future, I'd unlink these
    • I've unlinked Kroko Bongo, but not the other two; from my searches, they appear to have gotten more than enough coverage to warrant standalone articles. JOEBRO64 20:18, 15 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Don't italicize Digital Spy, "Square Enix Music Online", Fanbyte, Iwata Asks, AllGame, "All Things Andy Gavin", or "Original Sound Version"
  • In contrast, add italics for Game Informer and Advertising Age (which should read as Ad Age)
  • Citation#100 ("New screens honor the legacy of Donkey Kong Country - but WHY?") is missing a "+" for its GamesRadar+ bit
  • There's a HarvRef error for citation#119 ("Turner, Williams & Nutt 2003") when not connected to any used sources

Overall, this isn't too far off from being FA-level. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 00:29, 15 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@SNUGGUMS: thank you for the thorough review! I've responded to all points above JOEBRO64 20:53, 15 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
You're quite welcome, and just to be clear: is it known when work finished for the game? When the 18 month bit appears to have started before the August 1993 full-scale production began, that suggests conceptual work started May 1993 or earlier. Giving a timeframe for this could help narrow it down. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 21:37, 15 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
SNUGGUMS, it doesn't appear anywhere in reliable sources, unfortunately. From my research, total development lasting 18 months and actual production beginning in August '93 is the most we know. I did some additional looking today (including in old Nintendo Power issues and documents Mayles has posted on his Twitter) and came up dry. If it appears in a reliable source eventually, I'll 100% add it in ASAP. JOEBRO64 07:29, 16 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough, and I now support the nomination based on changes already made. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 13:11, 16 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Shooterwalker

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I gave this one a read. I could nitpick, but I think the prose is solid. Excellent job on the influence section, to show the impact of this game and why it is so celebrated. Shooterwalker (talk) 00:29, 19 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support from CollectiveSolidarity

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I did a peer-review on this a few weeks ago, and I’m pleased that the prose has improved even more from when I last checked. This is a great nomination, and I am happy to support based upon the research and prose. Excellent work! CollectiveSolidarity (talk) 04:42, 26 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Retro

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I have something of a long-term fascination with the DK series, so I was excited to see this article nominated for FA-status.

I did notice one thing:

  • [it] had the most man hours [...] 22 years: just based on basic math, the 20-person team size mentioned a few sentences prior, and the linked definition of man-hour, I found this claim dubious, both in counting methodology and accurately comparing to other video games' development time. It's sourced by Rare's website. Probably mention the source in-text or remove it?
    • "Man hours", in this context, refers to the cumulative hours that everyone who worked on DKC added up. DKC had what was a large budget and development team for the time, so I don't think the claim is dubious, especially since the text clarifies that it was at the time. I can see where you're coming from that it's from Rare's site though, so I've added in-text attribution. JOEBRO64 19:42, 29 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Overall, this article has seen remarkable improvements in depth and composition quality since I last worked on it in 2018. Retro (talk | contribs) 15:12, 29 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Retro: thank you for the kind words! I've responded above JOEBRO64 19:42, 29 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

(Support) Source review from David Fuchs

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In progress. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 18:19, 2 August 2022 (UTC) Working off of this revision:[reply]

  • Digital Spy is not italicized like other websites in the refs. Also issues with ref ordering.
  • What makes OriginalSoundVersion a reliable source? Square Enix Music Online? Fanbyte? Likewise, Nintendo World Report might be reliable, but I don't think it's necessarily the strongest possible source to be using.
    • Per WP:VG/S, all Square Enix Music Online articles by site staff is acceptable as a source. Fanbyte has an extensive set of editors, with the chief editor, Danielle Riendeau, being the managing editor of Vice Media's Waypoint (which is reliable). The author of the cited article, Jack Yarwood, has written for numerous reliable sources, including Polygon, PC Gamer, The Washington Post, and Eurogamer. OriginalSoundVersion is listed as reliable by WP:VG/S, with a lot of its staff working at other reliable sources such as RPGFan and Destructoid. NWR is used extensively in other FAs, including relatively recent promotions like Donkey Kong 64 and Super Mario Galaxy, and barring that precedent, it's not being used to back anything sensational or questionable. JOEBRO64 13:50, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm really not sold on the self-published Twitter posts and unreliable Youtube documentaries here. If secondary sources aren't picking up on this stuff, that suggests it's not important for inclusion, and that goes with stuff that you'd have to argue SPS applies for. These aren't the best possible sources for an FA, and certainly not to cite so heavily versus a more vetted history.
    • I ensured every interview I cited was a proper interview and met the SPS guidelines. The GameXplain and Shesez interviews were both noted by RSs ([5] and [6]). They're both by verified YouTube accounts with the lead staff who worked on the game, and both accounts are frequently featured in RSs ([7][8][9][10]), and GameXplain staff (such as Michael Koczwara and Jon Cartwright, who actually conducted the cited interviews) have worked for other RSs. The mere two uses of Twitter align with WP:TWITTER (they're both from the verified accounts of developers who worked on Donkey Kong Country, including the lead designer, Gregg Mayles, and are used in about-self fashion and do not make exceptional claims). Both instances are minor, however—I can remove them if this explaination isn't enough. I've removed the Sound Test interview as that one seems the weakest. The other video interviews are published by Digital Foundry (a subsection of Eurogamer) and Game Informer. JOEBRO64 14:14, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
      • My problem is that their usage goes way beyond what I would consider acceptable for WP:SELFPUB, even if they count as reliable (especially for Shesez, I simply don't see it. Getting press attention for game-breaking doesn't make you a journalistic outfit.) As the article itself demonstrates, people have different memories of events, especially 25 years later, and that compounds the issues with just taking their claims as gospel without the framework of any evidence of vetting. And, again, if the only sources we have for this stuff are collected testimonies from the devs via a YouTuber, that implies that the content isn't really worth covering in the detail given per WP:WEIGHT (the referenced sources above mentioning the interviews don't go into anywhere that level of detail.) Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 21:11, 9 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Spot-checked to refs 3, 4, 5, 8, 10, 11, 14, 19, 20, 21, 26, 28, 35, 37, 39, 43, 52, 55, 71, 81, 94, 103, 105, 114, 123, 131, 135, 144, 153, 164, and 166.
    • I don't particularly think [11] is particularly strong enough to call DKC a reboot.
      • How? The source says "[it] strays a little from the reboot formula but it did set up the move to a new land so we'll give it a pass," which is still defining it as a reboot. Nonetheless, I've added another source calling it a reboot. JOEBRO64 14:25, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    • Likewise, the claim that the game takes places after the arcade games seems pretty weak, if just cited to the Kotaku article, which is a) often referencing a wiki, and b) doesn't cite any definitive claims or evidence.
    • Ref 10-11 don't source the seven areas bit afaict.
    • The scare quotes in "Miyamoto was still involved with the project and provided "certain key pieces of input"." don't make it clear who or what's being quoted.
  • As a general comment, breaking up[a] text with multiple[b] references, instead of sticking them at the end of clauses and sentences,[c] makes it hard to actually read, and also doesn't make it much clearer what's getting cited to what.[d][e]
  • Noting a pretty systemic issue with MOS:QUOTEPOV/MOS:CONFORM throughout. Stuff shouldn't be getting as many scare quotes as they are, especially since it interferes with summarizing info rather than just relisting it.

I'm opposing at present, because I think the reliance on weak interviews is excessive. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 13:36, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Striking oppose. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 14:12, 10 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Strike a pose. Popcornfud (talk) 14:46, 10 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@David Fuchs: Thank you for the review, I've responded to all points above. Are my changes/explanations enough for you to strike the oppose? If not please let me know and I can do some more work. JOEBRO64 14:41, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@David Fuchs: just a little nudge, hope you don't mind. JOEBRO64 21:43, 8 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Random comment from Popcornfud

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Would be good to standardize the capitalization styling of the citation titles — some use Title Case, some use sentence case. I realize this reflects the casing of the original sources but I believe we should be internally consistent. (I'd vote for going with sentence case, in keeping with Wikipedia's general MoS.) Popcornfud (talk) 12:35, 17 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Popcornfud: think I got 'em all. ProveIt's a lifesaver. JOEBRO64 23:14, 17 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Changed my mind, it was better before.
Just kidding, looks nice and tidy now. Popcornfud (talk) 23:39, 17 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@FAC coordinators: we good to go now? JOEBRO64 23:42, 17 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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