Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Artaxerxes III of Persia/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 00:44, 4 July 2008 [1].

Artaxerxes III of Persia

Nominator(s): Ardeshire Babakan (talk)

I'm nominating this article for featured article because...This article has been worked on (mainly by me) and now it has a high quality. In the GA review a couple of problems were pointed out which have now been adressed. Ardeshire Babakan (talk) 16:47, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments
- Sources
  - http://www.iranologie.com/history/Achaemenid/chapter%20V.html/ – 404 error
  - http://persianempire.info/ArtaxerxesIII.htm/ – 404 error
  - Could you find a replacement for http://encyclopedia.jrank.org/ARN_AUD/ARTAXERXES.html – I'd prefer something more scholarly, rather than 1911 EB.
    - Same for http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Artaxerxes.
  - What makes http://www.iranologie.com/history/Achaemenid/chapter%20V.html a reliable source?
  - What makes http://lexicorient.com/e.o/artaxerxes3.htm a reliable source?
  - What makes http://persianempire.info/ArtaxerxesIII.htm a reliable source?
  - What makes http://www.iras.ucalgary.ca/~volk/sylvia/GogAndMagog.htm a reliable source?
  - What makes http://www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/prehistory/egypt/history/periods/persianii.html a reliable source?
  - What makes http://historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/PhilipofMacedon.html a reliable source?
  - What makes http://www.vohuman.org/Article/The%20Achaemenians,%20Zoroastrians%20in%20Transition.htm a reliable source?
  - What makes http://www.iranica.com/newsite/articles/ot_grp10/ot_mithra_i_20060114.html a reliable source?
  - Please use cite book for http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/gerald_larue/otll/chap29.html.
    - Same for http://www.katapi.org.uk/OTApoc/Judith.htm, I think.
    - Same for http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/mom/mom04.htm.
  - Please be consistent in your reference formatting. Might I also suggest you use more scholarly sources to reference the article? I'm sure all the information you found online comes from a more authoritative source.
- Prose: There are some 1a issues that need to be sorted out.
- "...was the Great King (Shah) of Persia and the eleventh Emperor of the Achaemenid Empire from 358 BC and the first Pharaoh of the 31st dynasty of Egypt from 343 BC until his death in 338 BC." – could you rephrase this? There's some ambiguity regarding his reign as Emperor of the Achaemenid Empire. I presume he ruled until his death, but I believe you need to explicitly state that. Or, you can just remove the dates entirely: "...was the Great King (Shah) of Persia and the eleventh Emperor of the Achaemenid Empire and the first Pharaoh of the 31st dynasty of Egypt."
- "Artaxerxes came to power after one of his brothers was executed, another committed suicide, the last brother was murdered and his father, Artaxerxes II died at the age of 90." – I can't put my finger on it, but the wording seems "off". I suggest you just simplify this by writing that Artaxerxes came to power after his three brothers and father died.
More to come... Nishkid64 _{(Make articles, not wikidrama)} 17:10, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

Why do are some of the accessdates in the format "March 1, 2008." while some are "Mar 11, 2008."?
"English" language does not need to be specified in references.
There are several uncited paragraphs, including "It is commonly believed that in 338 BC Artaxerxes was poisoned by Bagoas, his confidential minister." which I imagine should really require one.
I believe "425 BC–338 BC" should be "425 BC – 338 BC".

Gary King (talk) 17:33, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

What makes the following (in addition to the sources noted above) reliable sources?
- http://www.livius.org/?
Two dead links .... http://www.iranologie.com/history/Achaemenid/chapter%20V.html/ and http://persianempire.info/ArtaxerxesIII.htm/
Current ref 4 Artaxerxes IV Arses is lacking a publisher (which should be Livius.org, see above about reliablity)
Might be nice to find a replacement for the Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography and Mythology, which is almost a hundred and fifty years old.
Same for the "Phoenicia Under the Phersians" History of Phoenicia, which is over 100 years old.
Several other of your web sources are lacking publishers.
Have to agree about using less online sources and more scholarly works. Artaxerxes III isn't exactly a minor figure in history, there are monographs and books on him. Here's a link to a google scholar search Google and here is a google books search for items published since 1950 Google books search

Links checked out with the link checker tool, except the two noted above. Ealdgyth - Talk 17:56, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you so much for your constructive critisicm. I never knew there were so many errors in the article. Please do not stop your constructive critisicm. By the way, what do you mean by "is it a reliable source"? Do you mean I should use more books and/or more reliable sites? Thank you so much.Ardeshire Babakan (talk) 11:16, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

See WP:RS. Some of the sites that I mentioned above look like self-published sources. Self-published sources are not inherently unreliable, but there's no evidence to suggest that the author(s) of the work are scholars of the topic they're writing about. I do think you should replace your website refs with book and journal sources. Nishkid64 _{(Make articles, not wikidrama)} 12:14, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. The article has a good backbone, but the details need to be filled out. Right now I think it is assuming that readers have a good understanding of Persian history, and many of us do not. The context is missing for some of the facts, which left me a bit lost. Once the details have been filled in, the article will need a good copyedit to make sure that the meaning is clear. I have provided comments about what is/should be in the Early life and accession section so that you have examples of the type of work that needs to be done.
- I think you've done a good job incorporating some books into the article, but I would recommend that you replace as many of the web references as possible with books. The web references do not look like reliable sources.
- The family tree image seems a bit long for this article. I could easily see that as a different article
- I would expect the information on his birth, parentage, and siblings to be in the Early life section instead of at the bottom of the article in Family.
- Before ascending the throne Artaxerxes had been a satrap and commander of his father's army -- how did he get to be commander? Did he lead troops in any battles as commander or distinguish himself in any way?
- How did Ochus manage to succeed his father if he was one of 115 sons? What made him special?
- Was Artaxerxes king during Ochus's entire childhood or did he ascend the throne after Ochus was born?
- Why were those of Ochus's siblings notable? (they don't have wikilinks, so there should be at least a basic description of why they were known, if possible)
- Did he order all of his brothers executed or just the ones who were mentioned? Had they been plotting against him or was he just worried in general?
- "which required the city to leave Asia Minor " - I think I know what you are trying to say but this doesn't make sense as written
- to acknowledge the independence of its rebellious allies - whose allies? If they were Athens' allies they wouldn't be rebellious - I'm confused?
- Artaxerxes raised a campaign against the rebellious Cadusians, but he managed to appease both of the Cadusian kings - if he was the one who initiated the war, why would he need to appease both of them? How did he appease them?
- successful character emerging from this campaign was Darius. The earlier paragraph said that Ochus ordered his brother Darius executed. Who is this one?
- He then ordered the dismissal of all Greek mercenaries from the satrapal armies of Asia Minor -- He who - Darius or Ochus? Why would he order them dismissed?
- The order proved effective - why would it not be effective?
order was however ignored by Artabazus of Lydia, who asked for the help of Athens in a rebellion against the king. - why was he rebelling agains tthe king? Because he had to dismiss the mercenaries?

Karanacs (talk) 13:48, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Note: The nominator has not revisited this FAC since I posted, although he has been actively editing. I've left him a reminder [2] to come back and address comments. Karanacs (talk) 18:23, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, Karanacs. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:39, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments regarding images:
- Image:Faravahar.svg needs a verifiable source (currently a hitherto deleted en.wiki page) per WP:IUP. Description says author is Kevin McCormick and, alternatively, Ploxhoi (talk · contribs). Can we confirm this is the same person? This is perhaps moot, as the image appears to be a derivative of Image:Faravahar.png (which also fails to state a source); is that image's uploader (Roman Maurer - Commons user name: Romanm) the author? The image also alludes to Paradoxic (talk · contribs) as the author. What is going on here?
- Image sandwiching in "Later years" section; see WP:MOS#Images). ЭLСОВВОLД _talk 18:58, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.