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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was archived by Gog the Mild via FACBot (talk) 12 July 2024 [1].

2023 Union Square riot

[edit]
Nominator(s): 🌙Eclipse (talk) (contribs) 14:55, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about the 2023 Union Square riot. This was a giveaway of gaming-related items gone wrong, meant to be hosted by Kai Cenat. Any comments are welcome and appreciated. 🌙Eclipse (talk) (contribs) 14:55, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

Nikkimaria, do you have any further comments? 🌙Eclipse (talk) (contribs) 22:12, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

At this point just that alt text shouldn't duplicate the caption - see WP:ALT. Nikkimaria (talk) 23:49, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Done. — 🌙Eclipse (talk) (contribs) 00:48, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Draken Bowser

[edit]

In the interest of brevity I'd like to change "while not having a permit for the gathering." into "without a permit for the gathering." or even better "without a permit." I would also like for the lead to briefly summarize the consequences, including injuries, property damage and arrests. Regards. Draken Bowser (talk) 11:46, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

voorts (comments & source review)

[edit]
  • I've made several edits throughout for concision and grammar/style. Please feel free to discuss them here.
  • At this time, Cenat traveled to Atlanta, Georgia At what time?

This one's been stale because the Wayback Machine and other Internet Archive services are currently down. Will get back to it when I can. 🌙Eclipse (talk) (contribs) 16:09, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done. 🌙Eclipse (talk) (contribs) 17:13, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • According to Jonah Bromwich of the New York Times, this is not Cenat's first giveaway: in July 2023, he surprised a Massachusetts woman whom he used to visit with, by giving her $20,000, saying she was "a second mother to him", and that she deserved it. The woman, Cathy Parker, was "reluctant to accept the money." Recommend removing this sentence as not relevant to the Union Square riot.

Done. 🌙Eclipse (talk) (contribs) 16:27, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • On August 25, Night, a talent management firm based in Austin, Texas, announced the acquisition of LFM Management, another talent management company based in New York, placing Night as talent management for Cenat and other AMP members. Recommend removing this sentence as not relevant as well.

Done. 🌙Eclipse (talk) (contribs) 16:27, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Are there any more reactions that can be added to the Analysis section? Anything more recent than August 2023?

I was unable to find any. 🌙Eclipse (talk) (contribs) 16:27, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's all for now. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:31, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Source review also completed. Currently, some cites are missing wikilinks for work titles (e.g., ref 22 not linking to BBC News) and there's inconsistency between using the publisher vs. work parameter in some {{cite web}} references. I recommend using work for all of them. Ref 40 has www.cbsnews.com for the work parameter. Please go through all of the cites again, let me know when you're done, and I'll take a look. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:43, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In progress. 🌙Eclipse (talk) (contribs) 16:09, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Voorts: Done. 🌙Eclipse (talk) (contribs) 16:23, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A few more notes:
  • There's no consensus as to Fox News' reliability, so I wouldn't consider it to be a high quality source per FAC criteria. Can you replace ref 10 with something else?
  • The ref for note a (ref 22) is from 2020. It's also unrelated to the actual event. Is there a ref that says Cenat was wrong about the tear gas? Otherwise, I would remove this note.
  • Ref 29: WL CBS New York to WCBS-TV.
  • Ref 36: WL CBS News.
  • The analysis section begins "The incident generated discourse about the outsized influence of internet personalities", but only cites 4 sources. Can you find more analyses to cite there?
voorts (talk/contributions) 16:41, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Voorts: Done. 🌙Eclipse (talk) (contribs) 17:13, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
From a quick search, I've found more articles that can be added to the analysis section:
I think you can find more from additional searches. voorts (talk/contributions) 17:28, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Voorts, I can't access the first source. Can you give an identifier (i.e. ISBN, DOI, etc.)? — 🌙Eclipse (talk) (contribs) 17:32, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's this article: [5]. voorts (talk/contributions) 17:33, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Voorts, Done. (I was unable to find any other sources analyzing the event) — 🌙Eclipse (talk) (contribs) 13:46, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support. voorts (talk/contributions) 17:52, 30 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Dugan Murphy

[edit]

I'll review the article in a bit. Dugan Murphy (talk) 22:55, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done. lunaeclipse (talk) 18:46, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • I recommend Wikilinking live streaming from the lead and first instance in the body.

Done. lunaeclipse (talk) 00:38, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • announced that they – "that" is unnecessary.

Done. lunaeclipse (talk) 14:12, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Maybe I'm just middle aged, but despite the fact that "subathon" is linked to a Wiktionary entry, I think it is worth giving the term a little more context for the reader to understand it without having to click on the link. Perhaps replace "subathon" with "continuous livestream subathon to attract new subscribers".

Done. lunaeclipse (talk) 00:36, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done. lunaeclipse (talk) 14:12, 27 June 2024 (UTC) I'll add more later. Dugan Murphy (talk) 00:13, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • The serial comma is inconsistently used. I see two missed opportunities to use it before it is used in webcams, keyboards, and microphones. Make that consistent.

Done. lunaeclipse (talk) 00:34, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • How are you using the term mission in the Background section?

Done. lunaeclipse (talk) 00:36, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Is there an appropriate Wikilink for "level four mobilization"?

Done. lunaeclipse (talk) 00:38, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done lunaeclipse (talk) 00:38, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • were forced to close early – forced by the NYPD or the businesses themselves decided to close?

Done. lunaeclipse (talk) 00:34, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • I see dollar amounts listed 5 times, but only once is the USD currency specified. I think that given the topic, that specification isn't necessary.

Removed. lunaeclipse (talk) 13:50, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Were Cenat's gift cards worth $100 each or total?

They were $100 each. Reworded. lunaeclipse (talk) 00:40, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • A witness reported not being able to breathe. – because of tear gas?
  • The way the timeline is written out in the Union Square riot section, I get the impression that Cenat was in a police car around or after 5:30, but later it says he was released by police at 5:00. How is that?

Reworded. lunaeclipse (talk) 00:34, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Maddrey stated, "When I – MOS:CONFORM recommends replacing that comma with a colon.

Done. lunaeclipse (talk) 13:03, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • New York City mayor Eric Adams – I believe "mayor" should be capitalized when written out that way.

Done. lunaeclipse (talk) 13:50, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • New York Daily News – why isn't the whole title italicized?

Done. lunaeclipse (talk) 13:50, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • In his first public appearance after the riot, Cenat held up a New York Daily News issue and apologized in a livestream on August 9, while announcing that he would take a break from livestreaming. This sentence tripped me up. Suggestion: "On August 9, Cenat made his first public appearance after the riot in a livestream, holding up a New York Daily News issue, apologizing, and announcing that he would take a break from livestreaming." (Note my use of the serial comma, which may or may not match the rest of your article, depending on how you want to handle that consistency issue.)

Done. lunaeclipse (talk) 13:07, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • smashing a man in a red sweatshirt's head – This sentence tripped me up a bit. If you remove "in a red sweatshirt", it would read better. That detail doesn't seem necessary anyway.

Done. lunaeclipse (talk) 13:07, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Is there anything else in the sources about the Civilian Complaint Review Board action? That one sentence seems lonely and also that seems an important item to be left without a conclusion.
  • Removed. I couldn't find any sources discussing the aftermath of the investigation. lunaeclipse (talk) 13:13, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Union Square riot section seems to indicate that Cenat was released from police custody on August 4, but the Aftermath section says he was released August 5. Which is it?
  • August 4th. Reworded. lunaeclipse (talk) 13:17, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • What is the Union Square Partnership?
  • The combined amount of $57,099 paid for damage and staff hours needed in the riot's aftermath. That's not a sentence.
  • Denzel Dennis and Muktar Din, two other people connected to the incident, paid $1,049.50 to the organization. They each paid that amount, right? The way its written, the sentence tells me they each paid $524.75.

Reworded. lunaeclipse (talk) 13:17, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • "children cannot be raised by social media," – The comma should be outside the quotation mark, per MOS:INOROUT

Done. lunaeclipse (talk) 13:33, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Mark Johnson opined on the role of social media (such as the interactivity of Twitch) on the relationships between streamers and their fans. I think "role" should be "affect", if I'm reading that right.

Done. lunaeclipse (talk) 13:33, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • organize with authorities the next time he organizes – I would prefer to see one less "organize(s) in that sentence.

Done. lunaeclipse (talk) 13:32, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Removed. lunaeclipse (talk) 00:46, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Infobox: remove second Wikilink to Union Square and Kai Cenat (and the 3rd and 4th Kai links).

Done. lunaeclipse (talk) 00:46, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Lead

  • I think the first sentence could do a better job of speaking to a global audience by immediately placing the event in the US. I think this could probably be achieved by describing Cenat as American and maybe changing the "Union Square, Manhattan" to "New York City's Union Square" or something like that.

Done. lunaeclipse (talk) 13:52, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • I think the phrase "purported giveaway" can give the false impression that he allegedly gave stuff away, but that he may not have. I recommend rewriting to indicate that people convened on the promise of a giveaway.

Done. lunaeclipse (talk) 16:53, 4 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • obliged to close early – similar to my question above: ordered to close by NYPD or decided on their own to close?

Reworded and clarified in the body. Done. lunaeclipse (talk) 13:37, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • The third instance of "riot" is Wikilinked; it should be the first, if you're going to Wikilink it at all. If you're going to Wikilink it in the lead, I think the first instance in the body should be Wikilinked as well. Having said all that, I think the term is broadly understood enough to not need a Wikilink.

Done. lunaeclipse (talk) 22:52, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • There's no need to include "(NYPD)" in the lead since the term only comes up once in that section.

Done. lunaeclipse (talk) 22:36, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • "Unlawful assembly" is Wikilinked in the lead, so I think it should be Wikilinked in the body as well.

Done. lunaeclipse (talk) 22:36, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • The lead claims Cenat paid over $55k in restitution but the body says exactly $55k. Which is it?

Done. lunaeclipse (talk) 22:36, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • "Restitution" is Wikilinked from the body, so I think it should be Wikilinked from the lead as well.

Done. lunaeclipse (talk) 22:40, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Maybe this is just a style choice, but I recommend changing would also apologize to "also apologized".

Done. lunaeclipse (talk) 13:52, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • I think it would be appropriate to include a little bit from the Background section in the lead.

Done. lunaeclipse (talk) 13:52, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think that's everything. All in all, this article looks like it may well be comprehensive, though this is the first I've heard of the event, so I'm not familiar with any details or analysis that isn't included. I have not looked at the sources, trusting that they have already been vetted above. Aside from the comments above, I think the prose is well written and uses WP:NPOV. Earwig's Copyvio Detector says plagiarism is unlikely. Dugan Murphy (talk) 03:27, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Lunaeclipse: It looks like you're getting close to addressing all my comments. Ping me like this once you feel like you have addressed them all so I can take another look at the article. Dugan Murphy (talk) 12:37, 5 July 2024 (UTC) (courtesy ping Dugan Murphy) lunaeclipse (talk) 13:38, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I just read through the article again and found that the only one of my above comments not yet resolved is the one about Duke/Denzel Dennis. I also made a few minor edits of my own. During the re-read, I developed these additional comments:
  • I see someone has added an "about whom" tag in the lead. I think that's an appropriate question that can easily be answered by summarizing what's in the last section of the body. Something like "discussion by a variety of public figures" or something.
  • Can you find a reliable source on Cenat's birth year, his age at the time of the incident, or the year of his graduation? I think it would be helpful for the reader to have an idea of his age.
  • including many people who were drawn to the event Is this phrase about people who were drawn there by Cenat's promotions or people who were drawn in by the sight of those already assembled?
  • The sequence of events at the riot lists Cenat arriving, being swarmed by fans, then released by police. Was he arrested or detained at some point?
  • Is Muktar Din the legal name for one of the other Internet personalities?
  • What does Moreno research?
  • Same for Mark Johnson's lecture subjects.

That's everything. Dugan Murphy (talk) 15:44, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Source review

To follow. - SchroCat (talk) 07:06, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Other points:

  • The lead and IB both state 65 were arrested; the body says "at least 65". They should be made consistent unless an exact figure can be identified.

Already addressed. lunaeclipse (talk) 22:24, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Ditto on the nine injured

Already addressed. lunaeclipse (talk) 22:24, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Any reason why Kai Cenat is in bold in the IB?

Already addressed. lunaeclipse (talk) 22:24, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • "A witness reported fearing breathing problems within the crowd": No, he didn't fear breathing problems: he had breathing problems.
  • "arrested on the spot": fails WP:IDIOM - a slight rewording should suffice.

- SchroCat (talk) 08:06, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi LunaEclipse, have you responded to SchroCat's comments? Gog the Mild (talk) 17:31, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Gog the Mild, apologies for the inactivity. I was busy with my personal life. — lunaeclipse (talk) 22:22, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose from RoySmith

[edit]

I looked at a few of the sources in Special:Permalink/1232847471 to verify content...

  • By 3 p.m. on August 4, 2023, a large crowd—including many people who were drawn to the event by word of mouth—had gathered in Union Square.[8][11]
    • Most of this verifies, but neither source talks about being being drawn by word of mouth.

Removed the word of mouth part. lunaeclipse (talk) 13:47, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • The NYPD called on an estimated 1000 officers to respond as part of a level four mobilization—the NYPD's highest response level—at around 4:30 p.m.[18]
  • and NYPD chief Jeffrey Maddrey was among officers who had objects thrown at them.[26]
    • the source does say that Maddrey was attacked, and it does say in a different section that objects were being thrown at the police, but it's a little bit of WP:SYNTH to put those together and conclude that Maddrey had objects thrown at him. He could have been referring to being on the bus when the bus was attacked.
  • The bus was attacked by other people attempting to free those on board. In a press conference, chief Maddrey claimed that multiple police cars and food carts had been destroyed.[29]
  • The incident polarized Internet users and became an Internet meme. Rapper Offset criticized the police for arresting Cenat.[33]
  • Kai Cenat is an American live streamer and YouTuber. He attended Frederick Douglass Academy and the State University of New York at Morrisville, which he later dropped out of. Cenat joined a group of Internet personalities called Any Means Possible (AMP) in 2020. The following year he gained popularity after producing a series of live streams with Drake, 21 Savage, Toosii and Lil Baby. In February 2023, the United Talent Agency announced they would represent Cenat during his subathon (a continuous live stream where a new subscriber extends a descending timer).[1][2]

I wasn't keeping careful track of the citations I looked at which did check out, but I'd say the sampling of problems I found represents about 1/3 of all those I looked at. I suspect that all of the facts that are stated in the article are indeed true, but they're not cited to the right sources (for example, I did see the "NYPD's highest response level" statement in one of the sources I read, just not the one it was cited to). Overall, I'd say I turned up sufficient problems in the spot check that I can't support and suggest somebody take a deeper look at this to see if the problem really is extensive or if I just got unluckly and found a few unrepresentivie problems.

Hi voorts, as you did the source review, I wondered if you fancied following up on this? Gog the Mild (talk) 12:00, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It appears I did not do a spot check, just a source review. My support is contingent on these sourcing issues being fixed. voorts (talk/contributions) 15:46, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Here's some more:

  • By 3:30 p.m. the NYPD had mobilized dozens of officers to the area and established a perimeter. The crowd took down barriers and conflict broke out between police and members of the crowd. Some people climbed on a gazebo, street signs, vehicles (including a bus), and a statue of George Washington,[16]
  • Nine people were injured, according to the NYPD. Four people were taken to Mount Sinai Beth Israel, while two others were taken to Lenox Hill Hospital.[26] Three officers were injured,[10]
    • The source doesn't say nine people (in fact, it implies seven), and doesn't mention specific hospitals. More interestingly, the title in the ref is "Twitch streamer's giveaway sparks mayhem in Union Square", but the URL points to a story titled "Twitch streamer Kai Cenat charged over Union Square riot".
  • Maddrey also reported that a 17-year-old was wounded by a large firecracker.[26]
    • Basically verified, but the source just says "a firework injury"; it's a bit of WP:OR to turn that into "a large firecracker"
  • Following the event, Mayor Adams stated in a press briefing that "children cannot be raised by social media",[37]
    • The quote in the source is "Our children cannot be raised by social media". It's often appropriate to take a portion of a long quote, but in this case, leaving off the single word "our" isn't useful for trimming the length and changes the meaning slightly.
  • Keith Dorsey, founder and chief executive of...
    • This isn't a sourcing problem per-se, but the previous sentence explicitly refers to PRWeek. The way this sentence is introduced, it lulls the reader into thinking we're still talking about that same source; in reality we've moved on to a NY Times article but you wouldn't know that unless you clicked through the trailing citation.

Done. lunaeclipse (talk) 13:33, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    • Also, as a minor nit, the PRWeek article is a reprint from campaign.com; it's probably better to cite the original directly.
  • As of August 2023, Cenat had a cumulative 11.1 million followers across YouTube and Twitch.[6]]
    • This isn't quite wrong, but the source gives the number of followers on each of the two platforms. It's slightly misleading to just add them up and say that's how many followers he has because many people will have followed him on both platforms, so they're getting double counted. I'll admit, I'm probably being a bit pedantic about this one.
  • In a live stream on August 2, Cenat claimed that he would give away gift cards, headphones, gaming chairs, computers, webcams, keyboards, and microphones to attendees who could correctly answer questions about YouTube and live streaming. He called this "get off the streets and go stream".[9]
    • The first part of this verifies, but the source doesn't contain the "get off the streets" quote. Also, the title in the citation ("Twitch streamer in custody after giveaway draws huge crowds to Union Square in New York City") doesn't match what the URL points to ("Twitch streamer charged with inciting a riot after giveaway draws huge crowds to Union Square in New York City"). I suspect the on-line title just got updated sometime after it was originally posted, but I'm more concerned about the lack of the quotation.

I should add that (assuming I'm doing the time-zone math right), a substantial part of this article was written within a couple of hours of the event. It's common for news websites to put up something quickly and then keep updating it as more information becomes available. And it's not just low-quality sources that do that; the NY Times does the same thing. And it's a reasonable thing to do; if they wanted to wait a full day to update a story, they would be printing a newspaper :-) That might explain some of the discrepancies I found; they might have been accurate at the time but the source evolved in a way that it no longer says what we were relying on it to say. That's one of the dangers of writing articles about current events. Be that as it may, by the time things get to FAC, that stuff needs to be sorted out.

(break)

I've taken yet another look at this, and have to come down firmly in the oppose camp. In a previous comment, I pointed out that the NYPD's highest response level was not in the source cited. The response was to just delete that phrase from the article. While that technically resolved the problem, the right response would have been to find the source which actually did say that, especially since I had already stated that there was another source for it. It only took a few minutes of searching to find it again: https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/10/us/kai-cenat-twitch-nyc-violence/index.html. Likewise with chief Maddrey claimed that multiple police cars and food carts had been destroyed; this was removed, apparently without any effort to find the proper source, which is https://www.cbsnews.com/newyork/news/union-square-kai-cenat-giveaway-police/. The goal is to fix the article, not to just make the complaints go away by deleting the offending text.

I also just found On May 21, 2024, the Manhattan District Attorney's office announced that Cenat would not face any charges for the riot. They claimed that he had already paid $55,000 in restitution to the Union Square Partnership, the neighborhood's nonprofit organization for economic development.[39]. The cited source ("Why a Sculptor Was Drawn to Sewer Alligators") says nothing about any of these things.

In short, the sourcing is a total mess, and the nom doesn't seem to be putting in any serious effort to fix the problems. More fundamentally, the majority of the article is sourced to media reports written within hours of the event. This was a chaotic situation, so it's to be expected that the on-the-spot reports would get details wrong based on the incomplete information available at the time. This really needs sourcing from after the event, when people have had time to fully understand what went on and research the details.

  • I am deciding to withdraw this nomination per RoySmith and SchroCat's comments (especially the primary sources one). If I happen to fix the remaining issues above, I will renominate this article. lunaeclipse (talk) 14:26, 12 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@FAC coordinators: please note. - SchroCat (talk) 14:48, 12 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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