Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/1988 Football League Second Division play-off Final/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Laser brain via FACBot (talk) 28 September 2020 [1].

1988 Football League Second Division play-off Final

Nominator(s): The Rambling Man, Harrias ^talk 20:49, 29 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The 1988 Football League Second Division play-off Final was a rather dull pair of football matches which promoted Middlesbrough to the top tier of English football, then known as the First Division. What livened things up somewhat was the hooliganism after the second leg: a few hundred Chelsea fans invaded the pitch and attacked the Middlesbrough fans, who were still penned in. The police were criticised for being slow to react, but mopped everything up. There were 45 injuries and over 100 arrests. English football, which was suffering from a poor reputation for this sort of thing, took another hit. It was the final nail in the coffin for English clubs chances of being readmitted to European club competition early, and they had to wait another two seasons. A joint nomination with the playoff wizard himself, TRM. As always, all thoughts, criticisms and comments will be greatly appreciated. Harrias ^talk 20:49, 29 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support by Lee Vilenski

I'll take a look at this article, and give some comments on how it meets the FA criteria in a little while. If you fancy doing some QPQ, I have a list of items that can be looked at here. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 07:09, 30 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Lee Vilenski any thoughts yet? The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 19:10, 17 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The 1988 Football League Second Division play-off Final was an association football match contested between Chelsea and Middlesbrough over two legs on 25 May 1988 and 28 May 1988 to determine which club would play the next season in the First Division. - I feel like this could read better as two sentences Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 16:03, 18 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Split. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 21:22, 18 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
fans watched Chelsea beat Middlesbrough 1–0. - do we need to state they defeated Middlesbrough? Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 16:03, 18 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Why wouldn't we? The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 21:22, 18 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
just one season - only one season? Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 16:03, 18 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Neither. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 21:22, 18 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
In total, 102 arrests were made - for the lead, can we just say "over 100 arrests?" Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 16:03, 18 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Not much utility in reducing precision so long after the event when the numbers are well known and verifiable. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 21:22, 18 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
English Football League play-offs - considering you say about it being the English football league in this sentence, perhaps we could start "play-offs were introduced..." Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 16:03, 18 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
No, I think that's ok, but I have tweaked it a little. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 21:22, 18 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
They were also struggling financially, and in July 1986 their debts forced them into liquidation. - is there a specific citation for this? Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)}
The source there says the club goes into liquidation in July, suffering from massive debts. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 21:22, 18 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
According to Deloitte - perhaps have a pre-amble as to what Deloitte is Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 16:03, 18 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Sure. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 21:22, 18 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Football hooliganism has been present within English football since its inception - this is quite a sweeping statement. Needs a pretty good citation. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 16:03, 18 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
It's in the source provided. Yes, offline, but it's there. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 21:22, 18 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The Guardian described it as "a night football died a slow death", and the chairman of the Football Association, Bert Millichip, said that the riot was the reason that England was not named as host for the 1988 UEFA European Football Championship. - isn't there an author, rather than just the publication. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 16:03, 18 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Adjusted. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 21:32, 18 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Is it worth mentioning how many goals for the teams had for the second division tiebreaker? Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 16:03, 18 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry Lee, don't understand this one. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 21:32, 18 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Lee Vilenski: I have added "Aston Villa had scored 68 goals over the course of the season, while Middlesbrough had scored 63." which I think is what you were after? Harrias ^talk 07:11, 19 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"brilliantly [deflected]" - considering this is a two word quote, and the second word is imposed, surely just "brilliantly" deflected... Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 16:03, 18 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Sure that's done. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 21:32, 18 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Lee Vilenski done all bar one I wasn't quite sure about. Cheers. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 21:32, 18 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Lee Vilenski how are we looking? Cheers. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 15:48, 21 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Lee Vilenski anything more? The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 09:21, 3 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

No, apologies, I thought I had already closed this. Good work. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 11:02, 3 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support by Kosack

I'm guessing final should be capitalised in the bold writing to replicate the article title?
Indeed. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 09:36, 31 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
reputiation > reputation
Fixed. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 09:36, 31 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"(who were relegated in 17th place)", if Chelsea weren't automatically relegated in 18th, I'm assuming this is a typo?
Fixed. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 09:36, 31 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Link volley to Volley (association football)?
Done, picked up header too! The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 09:36, 31 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"around twelve Middlesbrough fans" > 12 Middlesbrough...?
MOSNUM is fine with words in this scenario. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 09:36, 31 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

A handful of very minor points, but this is a polished effort and I have little to complain about. Nice work. Kosack (talk) 09:20, 31 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Kosack thanks for you comments, all addressed. Cheers. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 09:36, 31 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Kosack: Thank you for your kind words, anything more for us? Harrias ^talk 18:36, 17 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I've had another run through but can't see anything further to complain about. With the additional comments from other users, I'm happy to support this. Kosack (talk) 06:50, 19 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support by WA8MTWAYC

Great work, TRM and Harrias. As Kosack indicated, there is little to complain about, although I've got a few minor comments:

Link "the Football Association"
Volley is not wikilinked correctly yet
Richard Piers Rayner has a wikipage
Maybe wikilink corner?
"to discuss whether to readmit English club to European competitions" English club > English clubs. WA8MTWAYC (talk) 18:03, 17 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the review and the kind words WA8MTWAYC. All your points have been resolved. Harrias ^talk 18:36, 17 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Cheers, I'll support this nomination. WA8MTWAYC (talk) 18:47, 17 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Dweller

Will appear here. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 08:57, 10 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This may be a FAQ but the capitalisation of the title of the article just looks weird. Is it something that's long since been settled as WP:FOOTY consensus? --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 11:01, 10 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I guess this could be brought up at the football project, this is a case of "it's always been like this" but you're not the first to ask, I believe Amakuru shared your concern but I'm not sure if he got round to asking the project about it. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 18:02, 10 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Somewhat odd that neither manager is mentioned in the prose. At least talk about their future fortunes... Rioch had a startling collapse in position from a zenith about six months later. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 11:06, 10 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Rioch didn't leave Boro until March 1990, the club's relegation is mentioned in the "Aftermath" section. And I wouldn't call getting back-to-back promotions a startling collapse in position from a zenith about six months later, I'd call it pretty damn remarkable (although I can think of one club who won the league after being promoted to the First Division the previous season... can you guess who it is yet????) The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 18:13, 10 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Not sure I understand this reply. It's odd not to have any prose about the managers. Half way through the 1988-89 season, Rioch would have seemed impregnable, having got the side promoted and into a strong position in the table. The ensuing collapse of the club's position and his own, is remarkable. No idea what Ipswich's feats that are even more ancient than this have to do with this. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 07:43, 11 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
It's my fault for trying to do this while tired and emotional. I'm talking shit. I'll take another look. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 09:08, 11 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, here's the thing. This article is about the play-off final. We add a little bit of context around the season of the final (route to final/background etc) and a little bit of context to what happened the following season (in the Aftermath section). I am happy to add another sentence in there about this alleged "remarkable" collapse, but much more is undue and belongs in the History of Middlesbrough F.C. article, not this one. Rioch was still employed by the club post-relegation for almost the whole of the following season, so bringing him into it is ... odd? What do you suggest? What precisely are you looking for? Judging by this it appears that Boro performed just as a promoted team would be expected to perform, i.e. badly from the get-go. This doesn't seem or feel remarkable in any sense. Promoted clubs often get relegated, in fact I believe they were only relegated on the final day of the season so were almost unlucky. As for manager mentions, do you just want me to say who was the manager of each club or are you looking for something more specific? The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 09:16, 11 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

<-I'd be happy with any kind of prose about the managers, tbh. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 16:03, 11 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It's already there, as of this morning. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 16:04, 11 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Could the lead be restructured to deal with the match in one place and the future view in another, or am I suggesting the opposite of a previous reviewer? --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 11:06, 10 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The point of the current structure is that all the football is in one place and the hooliganism in another, so it's horses for courses really. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 18:03, 10 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Mention in the lead that this was for promotion to the top tier of football. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 11:06, 10 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Harrias gone and went and did that. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 18:04, 10 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"had been marched provocatively en masse to the ground" eh? Been marched by whom? And if you're being marched by someone else, that's provocative to whom, yourself or others? --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 12:07, 10 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Harrias one for you, I can't access the source to clarify Dweller's point here. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 18:10, 10 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
It should just be "had marched provocatively en masse to the ground", not sure why I put a "been" in there. Removed, hopefully okay now? Harrias ^talk 16:34, 11 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Some of the distances rendered by the tool look silly in metric - overly precise. Can the tool be set to round to whole numbers? --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 13:38, 10 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I only found two instances of the use of {{convert}} and forced them both to zero decimal places. Now you will tell me it looks silly converting 5 yards to 5 metres..... The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 18:05, 10 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Dweller cheers me old fruit. I've responded to and/or addressed all but the "provocative" point, if you could feedback on how we're doing so far that'd be great and hopefully Harrias will find time to look at that last issue. Cheers. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 18:10, 10 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Dweller think we're done? The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 10:32, 12 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Supprt thanks for responses --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 21:41, 12 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

The image is appropriately licensed and used appropriately in the article.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:54, 17 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Coord note

Adding this to the source reviews for one. --Ealdgyth (talk) 15:27, 22 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Never mind, already there. Oops? --Ealdgyth (talk) 15:28, 22 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Been there quite some time I think! The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 07:58, 24 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - pass

I'll take a look at this later. Might claim WikiCup points. Hog Farm _Bacon 14:39, 24 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, so maybe I'm looking in the wrong spot, but a spot check on some of the Chelsea 1–0 Middlesbrough details from the match report aren't showing up: The timing of the substitutions, the team captains, the exact start time. The managers aren't in the report, but they're cited elsewhere, so that's not a big issue. Also not seeing the time or captains in the match report for the other one.

Sub timings are in the sources given in the second half match report. Captains wouldn't have changed, they were "club captains", and 3pm kick off is like citing the sky is blue, but I guess there's a chance we could find a TV listing for it or a preview Harrias? The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 18:36, 24 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The 3pm kickoff isn't obvious to someone who doesn't follow English association football, which I would say is a rather high percentage of our readers, including myself. Hog Farm _Bacon 19:33, 24 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

3pm sourced from a fixture list published in The Guardian the day before. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 19:49, 24 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

There's a location given for Rayner, but not the other sources in the bibliography section. Not expected for King as a journal, but can the location be added for the others?

Done. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 18:36, 24 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Spot checks:

"They were fined £75,000, the largest fine given" - The source states that it was 75,000 plus costs
Added. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 18:37, 24 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"After 45 minutes, the Middlesbrough players were able to return to the pitch and celebrate with their fans, who remained in the North Stand" - checks out
Cool. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 18:37, 24 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"The play-off final first leg was played at Middlesbrough's Ayresome Park, in front of a crowd of 25,531" - checks out
Cool. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 18:37, 24 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"Chelsea were Second Division champions in the 1988–89 season, regaining promotion to the top tier and, as of 2020, have remained there ever since." - Checks out
Cool. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 18:37, 24 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"After two sixth-placed finishes in their first two seasons in the top tier, they dropped to 14th in the 1986–87 season" - Good
Cool. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 18:37, 24 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"His first shot was saved by Hitchcock, but Slaven put away his own rebound to make it 2–0" - Checks out
Cool. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 18:37, 24 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"around a dozen Middlesbrough fans climbed over the fencing surrounding the pitch, and according to White, "celebrated provocatively on the pitch"" - The quote checks out, but the source says that it was a handful of Middlesbrough fans, which I don't know can be really equated to around a dozen.
I can't read that source Harrias but I know Dweller substituted "a dozen" in for "around twelve".... The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 18:43, 24 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@The Rambling Man: - The word the source uses is handful. Personally, I'd consider a phrasing like "a few" or something like that to be acceptable. Hog Farm _Bacon 19:54, 24 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
That's done. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 19:56, 24 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Reverted this back to "around twelve" per another source which I had not cited inline at that point; rectified now. Harrias ^talk 20:13, 24 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"Around" doesn't work with non-round numbers, it just seems daft. That's why I went for dozen, because that's sort of a round number. If the source says "around 12", "around a dozen" is best from my perspective, but if not, I'd go for a direct quote rather than Wikipedia seem ridiculous --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 11:16, 25 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Twelve is just as round as dozen: they're exactly the same thing. If "a dozen" is sort of round, then twelve is sort of round. Twelve is an exceptional number with historical significance, which is part of the reason we have the common variation of "a dozen" in the first place. I don't see any problem here. Harrias ^talk 12:08, 25 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
" Paul Condon, the Metropolitan Police's deputy assistant commissioner, rebutted the claim, while the official police view was that the fault lay with Chelsea" - Checks out
Cool. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 18:39, 24 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Ref 42 has a typo in the title
Fixed. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 18:39, 24 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Ref 19 (John Hollins) looks to have a date of 22 January 2018
Added. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 18:39, 24 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That's it. A couple of formatting issues and some minor stuff on the spot checks. Shouldn't be too much to fix. Sources all look reliable, and all seem to work. Hog Farm _Bacon 16:19, 24 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hog Farm really appreciate the source review, cheers. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 19:56, 24 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'm happy to pass this source review. Looks to me like this one can probably be promoted now. Congrats. Hog Farm _Bacon 19:57, 24 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Hog Farm. Harrias ^talk 20:13, 24 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Closing note: This candidate has been promoted, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. --Laser brain (talk) 15:34, 28 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.