User talk:Voceditenore/Archive 21

This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page.
If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page

yet more past topics...

ABOUT MY ARCHIVES
Past topics I · Past topics II · Past topics III · Past topics IV · Past topics V · Past Topics VI · Past Topics VII · Past Topics VIII · Past Topics IX · Past Topics X
Past Topics XI · Past Topics XII · Past Topics XIII · Past Topics XIV · Past Topics XV · Past Topics XVI · Past Topics XVII · Past Topics XVIII · Past Topics XIX
Past Topics XX · Past Topics XXI · Past Topics XXII · Past Topics XXIII · Past Topics XXIV · Past Topics XXV · Past Topics XXVI · Past Topics XXVII
Schoolwork · AfC · DYKs etc. · Resolved notices

Thank you

Below relates to this. Voceditenore (talk) 13:32, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

	Thank you
	Thank you much for taking time to review and resolve the issue. :) Moonriddengirl (talk) 16:46, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

Temp pages deleted. I see that the day has been closed out (didn't notice when I worked on CP this morning). Woohoo! January is almost history. :D (And I felt like sharing some pretty flowers. :D I could have just put them here, but Wikilove makes it easier for me to format than just dropping images on pages.) --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 16:47, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

A cup of tea for you!

After all that work on Raymond Raikes, you deserve a good cup of tea! Keep up the excellent work! TKK bark ! 13:03, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

Please accept this article

Please accept this article. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Articles_for_creation/Tambov_State_University&oldid=555222380 Александр Граф (talk) 12:42, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Tambov State University was deleted for blatant copyright violation soon after you posted this message. I'm not sure why you contacted me. I didn't review this article. If I had, I would have marked it for deletion myself. Voceditenore (talk) 15:42, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

• Did 'em myself in the end: Tambov State University and Tambov State Technical University. Voceditenore (talk) 16:37, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

End of civilization, etc.

As you are probably aware, Gerda has now unilaterally started changing navboxes for Monteverdi and Verdi operas, without consulting on the relevant talk pages. I don't think this was what you had in mind, but maybe it was? Is it in your opinon OK to revert these with a request for discussion on each talk page? Can we advise Gerda to take this no further at present with out requesting disucssions? I don't want to launch a huge mess on ANI, etc.--Smerus (talk) 09:13, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

(watching) I replied on the project talk, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:22, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Gerda, that was not a reply, it was a declaration that you will continue regardless.--Smerus (talk) 10:03, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Hi both. I've left a comment at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Opera#Template:Infobox opera, momentarily breaking my resolution not to get involved ever again with that idiotic (both pro and con) subject. Voceditenore (talk) 12:41, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Thank you, voice of reason, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:49, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

(ec) Gerda is also putting duplicate navboxes on all the Massenet operas. If this isn't a WP:POINT attack then I don't know what is. To VDT, nobody else thinks the infobox issue is idiotic. There is a general recognition on both sides that it will affect the future direction of the encyclopedia. Putting your head in the sand is not constructive. --Kleinzach 12:51, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

I explained where you asked, it doesn't belong here. I created the navbox in response to a concern on the project talk, not what you think, and certainly no attack. If you can't see that a more detailed footer navbox is (by all standards I can think of) superior to a side navbox, I reached the limit of my teaching ability, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:00, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Kleinzach, the endless arguments about it and refusal to compromise and/or simply get off one's hobby horse (either pro or con) are what are truly unconstructive and time wasting. I choose not to take part in it any further. If you wish to label that as unconstructive, so be it, but I seriously doubt that my decision to no longer participate in this saga is going to "affect the future direction of the encyclopedia" one iota. Voceditenore (talk) 13:08, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Nice tone, should I uncorrect the 150+ other mispelt articles while I'm at it?

Nice tone, should I uncorrect the 150+ other mispelt articles while I'm at it? DynamoDegsy (talk) 12:10, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

Not if you have corrected actual article text, only if you have tried to correct the file names. I reverted the two on my watch list. If you have done this to other file names, yes, you should revert yourself as such edits are unconstructive and damage the article for the reasons I explained on your talk page. – Voceditenore (talk) 12:17, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

FYI. Dpmuk (talk) 17:33, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

Hmmm. Not surprising. {{{Sigh}}}. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 18:11, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

Discussion at Wikipedia:WikiProject Articles for creation/RfC Reviewer permission

You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia:WikiProject Articles for creation/RfC Reviewer permission. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 08:20, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

Negrini and Coletti

Hell Voceditenore, and thank you for your photo and corrections to the Coletti page. If you have any suggestion how this page may be improved I would be very happy indeed. Best regards!Nicoderno1 (talk) 13:58, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Opera Village Africa

A tag has been placed on Opera Village Africa, requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done for the following reason:

It may meet Wikipedia's criteria for speedy deletion under CSD G11. Unambiguous advertising or promotion

Under the criteria for speedy deletion, articles that do not meet basic Wikipedia criteria may be deleted at any time.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Click here to contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be removed without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. If the page is deleted, and you wish to retrieve the deleted material for future reference or improvement, you can place a request here. Leutha (talk) 21:07, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

• Resolved. See Talk:Opera Village Africa. PS. The instructions on this warning are inaccurate. Only the article's creator is prohibited from removing, speedy deletion notices. I am not the creator of this article. Voceditenore (talk) 08:07, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

Emma Calvé

Calve wrote in her autobiography:

IT has been my good fortune and my joy to know a man who truly "walked with God," a noble being, a saint, a philosopher, and a true friend. His influence upon my spiritual life was profound. He opened up new horizons before me, enlarging and vivifying my religious ideas and ideals, teach­ing me a broader understanding of truth. My soul will bear him an eternal gratitude.

Someone tagged this reference as "self-published source", but they did not publish it. At the top of the page it was written "From 'My Life' by Emma Calve. Translated by Rosamond Gilder". That site has lots of more historic documents. Brilliant site, I must say.

BTW, Calve is in my task list. I'll try to expand the article. Right now, I am collecting sources (I have found 2 good books). I am a bit busy with User:Titodutta/Swami Vivekananda's 150th birth anniversary celebration initiatives, but, I'll surely try to expand Calve article. Let me know if you can help. Regards. --Tito☸Dutta 15:22, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

Hi Tito. For quotes which are claimed to be by Emma Calvé herself, it is much better to reference them directly to her autobiography and give the exact page number so they can be verified. I've done that for you now. Parlato's site is self-published. He has no record of print publications on this subject, and while it is probably accurate, I would use it with extreme caution as a reference. I would also suggest that her spiritual relationship/fascination with Swami Vivekananda be kept in proportion to the rest of her life in the article. I haven't got the time to do more extensive work on expanding and cleaning up the article as a whole, but I'll leave a note at WikiProject Opera to see if anyone can volunteer some time to this. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 16:34, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

a) That site is too good to avoid, click on the years at the right side sidebar here, all nineteenth century newspaper reports. Amazing. The site is full of such valuable documents. But, yes, I mainly use the site for personal studies. b) yes, we should not write more than 1 section on Vivekananda. And we can add one-two lines in her "middle life" too. I am explaining below.

The role of Vivekananda in Calve's middle life is very important.

From Vivekananda, Swami (1996). My India : the India eternal (1st ed. ed.). Calcutta: Ramakrishna Mission Institute of Culture. pp. 176–177. ISBN 81-85843-51-1. {{cite book}}: |edition= has extra text (help) (excerpts):

Madame Emma Calve was a celebrated opera singer in France. She enjoyed great popularity in the United States. But, despite her professional success, her personal life was miserable, she was obstinate and quick tampered and had strong likes and dislikes. Naturally she had no peace of mind. To add to her suffering, in March 1894 she lost her only daughter in an accident in Chicago. After this tragedy she nearly lost her mental balance. At this moment, a friend of hers wanted to take her to Swami Vivekananda, but Madame Calve refused, for she thought there was only way left for her to get permanent peace and that was to commit suicide. She tried four times to commit suicide but failed.. At last she decided to go to Swami Vivekananda..."

You can Google to learn about their meeting, but after the meeting Calve's reaction was— "He seemed to have emptied my brain of all its feverish complexities and placed there instead his clear and calming thoughts."

In October 1900, Vivekananda went for a travel. He was a Hindu monk and did not have much money with him (according to Hindu religious tradition, a Sannyasi should not keep money with him). Then few of his admirers and devotees accompanied Vivekananda in that tour. Now, guess who was the main companion and sponsor of this tour? Yes, it was Emma Calve.

Vivekananda, Calve and others started their journey on 24 October 1900 and ended on 25 November 1900. In this one month, they travelled to six countries Germany, Austria, Serbia, Bulgaria, Greece and Egypt.

I have started gathering sources on Calve. I have got so much information on her performance in "Carmen" and America tour that I can write two long articles on . But, the problematic part is I am not getting any source which discusses her first life. Hopefully there will be lots of Good sources in French. I need a native French speaker. Vivekananda wrote few letters to Calve. I have found those letters, Calve also wrote many letters to Vivekananda, I have not found any. I am searching those letters. --Tito☸Dutta 17:58, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

She obviously considered him important enough to devote a chapter in her autobiography to her travels with him. I have to say, though, that I find it rather concerning that you are using sources written by the Swami and/or his followers for biographical information about someone with whom he was in contact for one month, without questioning their veracity. For example, I can find no trace in any other sources (including her autobiography) of her ever having had a daughter, let alone one who died in an accident in Chicago in 1894. In fact in this interview in the New York Times, Calvé explicitly states that she never had children and doubted whether she would have become a singer if she had. Ditto, the contention that she tried to commit suicide 4 times. She is known to have suffered from nervous exhaustion and it is documented that she took an overdose of aconite in 1903 (long after her trip with the Swami), possibly after a rift with her lover at the time, and that's it. Voceditenore (talk) 08:09, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

• (edit conflict) Yes, I'll check French, American sources mainly too. I have started reading Wisner's "Artistic life" and Calve's autobiography. Wisner seems to be a good source. I am sad to see you are tagging my sources as "written by Swami and/or his followers". It is a worldwide institution. I have recently bought an "anthology" which was written by at least 15 University professors and researchers, the anthology has some good information on Calve.
  But, anything doubtful, incomplete, contradicting will not be added in the article, be assured.
  Unfortunately, I don't think I'll get time to expand this article soon. I have very recently almost 5x expanded John Henry Wright, he was an eminent professor of Harvard University. This was a very very difficult work. I am still working and collecting sources on his scholarly works. --Tito☸Dutta 08:35, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

Tito, I'm going by the three references you used in Emma Calvé, one was by the Swami himself and two others are published by this organization. All these writings have basically taken the Swami's word for his relationship with Calvé, what sort of person she was, and what happened when. And clearly some of the stuff they have written about her is at the very least dubious and anecdotal and at the worst false. She dabbled in all kinds of eastern religions and alternative forms of Catholicism as well as the occult, palmistry, and Rosicrucianism. Any section on her relationship with him should be very brief and matter-of-fact and without all the flowery quotes and it should include other members of that circle who joined her on the month-long trip, including Hyacinthe Loyson and her lover and erst-while fiancee Jules Bois. In my opinion, the section in John Henry Wright gives undue weight to what may have been an important event in the Swami's life but was not of such major significance in Wright's life to merit that lengthy and flowery section. It completely distorts Wright's biography. Voceditenore (talk) 12:54, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

• Your comment and clearly some of the stuff they have written about her is at the very least dubious and anecdotal and at the worst false— is directly insulting an international institution and the person you are talking about is one of the most influential person of a country and his birthday is celebrated as India's National youth Day. Both Advaita Ashrama and the book's writer Swami Nikhilananda are notable and reliable. what you are talking about, is a topic of scholarly studies. If you really can show it, write a paper "Ramakrishna Mission is distorting Emma Calvé"'s biography". Your name will be in newspapers. You can contact them in these email addresses and ask for sources/clarification too—

1. Book publisher: rmicvsnl.com or Official website
2. Headquarter: rkmhqbelurmath.org or Official website
3. President of RKM: presidentrkmpresident.org
4. RKM Gretz, France : contactcentre-vedantique.fr or Official website
5. Mani Shankar Mukherjee: This person is a notable scholar, wrote many books on Vivekananda, and often answers Vivekananda related questions, I do not know his email address, but, try mailing: "Mani Shankar Mukerjee {Shankar) c/o Dey's Publishers deyspublishinghotmail.com
   There are many books in the web, see you may find some more references there. The Saturday Evening Post, an American journal also wrote about it..
   Yes, I know about Bois. Most probably he came to Belur Math to meet Vivekananda. I'll expand his biography too. Wright is a DYK candidate and is still under construction. I need more sources. I am working on it. Most probably, I'll merge the section too "other activities" after studying few more sources and expanding the scholarly works section. --Tito☸Dutta 14:50, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

• BTW, if possible, can you send me the PDF copy of this book. I could not download it. I read first few pages online. But, I can not read online for a long time. I'll start works at Calve as soon as possible. --Tito☸Dutta 14:57, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

• Tito, this has nothing to with insulting the Swami and those who study him, nor is it a comment on his importance in his field, which is obvious. I am trying to tell you that those writings have to be treated with extreme caution when they are used to source a biography of Emma Calvé, a French opera singer. Some of the stuff you quoted above about her having a daughter is demonstrably false, for example. I am sure none of the errors that appear are deliberate. They are simply a product of those writers not being expert in the history of French opera and/or 19th century French cultural history and having to rely on anecdotal evidence, what the Swami wrote about her, or the recollections (often hazy, second-hand, and from a very particular perspective) of those who knew him. This is a common problem in sourcing biographies of any kind and not limited to the works of the Swami and his followers. For the same reason, I would treat the Wisner book with extreme caution. It's basically a hagiography of Calvé rather than a biography. You don't need to read the Wisner book on line. Just click the "Full text" version and copy paste it into a Word file. It's not long at all. But note that it doesn't mention the Swami at all. The only relevant line about that aspect of her life is: "Calvé believes firmly in occult science and is always much interested in spiritualism. She often allows herself to be guided by astrologists." Voceditenore (talk) 16:14, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

• Yes, I understood that part. But, there is nothing wrong in sending mails and asking for clarification. I regularly send emails. Just yesterday I sent mail to Vedanta Society of New York and requested a free photograph. I have not got any reply still. Please see this discussion where we sent an email after a long discussion and requested "resources" to develop an article. I think, such query is completely acceptable. You may surely send email to the authority and challenge the info. If you send an email, three things might happen: a) you will not get reply (they get many mails on many topics, so, consider sending to all the email addresses mentioned above). b) they will accept the error and make changes (that will be a huge help for two reasons i) we'll get some information ii) they will correct the error (if that is an error, it needs to be corrected, almost half million copied of the book have been sold so far, they may give you acknowledgement too) and finally c) they will provide sources to show their information was correct (that might be helpful too). All the information I have provided above are correct including ISBN, book name, quote, email addresses (there might be one-two minor punctuation error, but, over all that is correct). So, you may go ahead.
  Wisner's book is on her "artistic life", I don't expect to see "artistic life". I have found few sources like this, but, I don't know how to translate a Google Book. --Tito☸Dutta 16:52, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

Second cuckoo

I started working at the Calve article, but got struck, after finding one more source. There are two differences a) the previous source said it was March 1894, this one is saying "in all probability it was in 1899", b) the last source said, it in one line "her daughter died in an accident, and this source has 2 page details on the event. I am typing what is written in Swami Vivekananda: New Perspectives An Anthology on Swami Vivekananda. Ramakrishna Mission Institute of Culture. 2013. pp. 396–397. ISBN 978-93-81325-23-0. {{cite book}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help)

In all probability it was in 1899 when Calve was visiting Chicago with the Metropolitan Opera Company that a strange incident brought her to Vivekananda. In her tumultuous life along with fame, wealth, ceaseless work and travel with usual emotional imbalances of an artiste, she had only her daughter, accompanying during her particular tour, who gave her comfort. It has been made known by Mme Paul Verider, a close acquaintance of Emma Calve, that one evening at the opera when she was singing Carmen her voice was never so beautiful, and although she felt nervous going to the theatre, she had after the first act a tremendous success. During the first intermission she suddenly felt terribly depressed and thought she would not continue the second act, but with a great effort she succeeded in getting ready, and although she had the impression she would not be able to sing, she sang magnificently. Right after the second act, coming back to her dressing room she almost collapsed and asked the manager to announce she was ill. She was more depressed than before and had difficulty in breathing. The manager and people around her insisted so, that finally she continued and was almost carried to the stage for the last act. She told me that at that minute she made the greatest effort of her life to finish the performance. She also said that it was the day she sang her best and the public gave her a tremendous ovation. She ran to the dressing room without waiting for the applause, and when she saw several people and the manager waiting for her with sad faces, she knew something tragic had happened. The tragedy was that her daughter, who had been in a house of a friend that evening, was dead, having been burned to death during the performance of Carmen. Calve Collapsed.
As the days went on, Calve become more and more firm in her wish to commit suicide..... Mme Verdier's Notes tells us that— "She told me that her only thought was to commit suicide by throwing herself in the lake....

The same book also mentions, that her daughter's accident was mentioned in details in another notable research work. It quotes Emma Calve's autobiography (quotes are already covered in Reminiscences, link above). It also gives an information, in 1911, she came to Belur Math, India. She wrote in her autobiography (and it is also in the same Reminiscences, I did not notice so far)—

Year later, when I was travelling in India, I wished to visit the convent where the Swami had spent....

I don't know if the Paul Verdier mentioned above is this Paul Verdier. But, if really something happened (i.e. daughter's death, four times attempt to suicide etc), that is a significant event. --Tito☸Dutta 19:13, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

It would be a significant event, except that it is utterly preposterous, and once again "sourced" to the same multiply repeated anecdotes and hazy recollections long after the fact (and solely in sources by or about the Swami written by his followers) and reproduced all over the internet. They can't even agree on the year when this non-existent daughter was killed. The press in the US covered just about everything that Calvé did, no matter how trivial, from her jewels being stolen to her attacks of rheumatism [1] No daughter is ever mentioned, let alone one that was tragically killed in the US while Calvé was singing Carmen. No biography of Calvé, including her own autobiography, even mentions a daughter and she has clearly stated that she never had children. She is known to have treated many under-privileged children as her surrogate children both at her chateau in France and in the US. She also had several protégées (young female singers whom she treated as daughters), but that was post 1900, and none of them were tragically killed, and in fact were still alive in the 1920s. She was devastated by the death of her nephew in the 1920s and wrote at length about it (describing herself as his "second mother"). The Paul Verdier being referred to was the President of the City of Paris store in San Francisco from 1904 and the son of its founder, Felix Verdier. Paul was born in 1881. Anyhow, any further discussions about this sort of content should take place at Talk:Emma Calvé so that other editors can participate. Voceditenore (talk) 10:35, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

Article Feedback Tool update

Hey Voceditenore. I'm contacting you because you're involved in the Article Feedback Tool in some way, either as a previous newsletter recipient or as an active user of the system. As you might have heard, a user recently anonymously disabled the feedback tool on 2,000 pages. We were unable to track or prevent this due to the lack of logging feature in AFT5. We're deeply sorry for this, as we know that quite a few users found the software very useful, and were using it on their articles.

We've now re-released the software, with the addition of a logging feature and restrictions on the ability to disable. Obviously, we're not going to automatically re-enable it on each article—we don't want to create a situation where it was enabled by users who have now moved on, and feedback would sit there unattended—but if you're interested in enabling it for your articles, it's pretty simple to do. Just go to the article you want to enable it on, click the "request feedback" link in the toolbox in the sidebar, and AFT5 will be enabled for that article.

Again, we're very sorry about this issue; hopefully it'll be smooth sailing after this :). If you have any questions, just drop them at the talkpage. Thanks! Okeyes (WMF) 21:41, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

L'arpa festante again

In the process of expanding the article L'arpa festante, I would like to know if there ever will be one on the cantata, - then the derived orchestra should get a qualifier. What do you think? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:19, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

Hi Gerda. Just about everything I could find about the cantata itself is currently in Giovanni Battista Maccioni. I could take it out of there and create a separate article for the work itself but it would be permanently very, very short, unless someone goes to the Austrian National Library and digs out the score and libretto. Do you want me to go ahead with it? Best, Voceditenore (talk) 17:33, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

I just want to know if the orchestra will keep the name or not. If to be changed then now, - you decide, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:08, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

Ah, I see what you mean. I'd say that they are probably equal in terms of google web searches with maybe an edge for the ensemble, primarily because their recordings show up all over the place, but the cantata is far more notable in terms of the history of opera in Germany and even lent its name to a book L'Arpa Festante:Die Münchner Oper 1651-1825. I guess it's a question of primary meaning, and I don't really have an answer. Maybe using a qualifier for the ensemble would be the best way to go. I can make a separate article for the cantata and then they can both be resolved with hatnotes. Voceditenore (talk) 08:30, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

Suona la tromba

Greetings: I did some work on Inno delle nazioni the other day and cleaned up a lot of things. However, the original editor used "Marvin" as surname, and I did a check on the title of the Hymns etc. volume on the U of C site (which shows: Inni, ed. Roberta Montemorra Marvin; rental and published scores; vocal score in production) as well as abebooks.com where her name also appears (albeit for a different title) as Roberta Montemorra Marvin.

My refs use:

• Marvin, Roberta Montemorra, (Ed.) (2007), Hymns / Inni (The Works of Giuseppe Verdi, Series IV, Vol. 1: Cantatas and Hymns). (Contains Verdi's Inno popolare, 1848, and Inno delle nazioni, 1862). Chicago: University of Chicago Press & Ricordi, Milan. ISBN 0226853284

All the best, Viva-Verdi (talk) 21:54, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Thanks! I wondered which "last name" she used. I've adjusted the ref in "Tromba". Best, Voceditenore (talk) 07:01, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

Mikhail shuysky

Hello, Voceditenore, many thanks. You were very kind move my draft into article space after doing some basic copy editing and cleanup. I'm only wondering: 1. For what reason spelling from Shuisky Michael was changed into Mikhail Shuisky? May I change it back? 2. For what reason names of all composers was disappeared from Opera roles? Could I write down them back? 3. Could be files into Opera roles smaller? If yes, how can I do it? Thank you so much for your help.121.98.217.63 (talk) 22:12, 25 September 2013 (UTC)121.98.217.63 (talk) 22:09, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

Hello, I'm assuming you are the article's creator, but you have not logged in. Anyhow,

1. I used the standard English transliteration of his name, but I'm happy to move the article for the time being. Do you have any examples of him or one of his descendants being mentioned in non Russian sources? That might help, but note that European languages vary in how they transliterate Russian. For example, English: Tchaikovsky; Italian: Čajkovskij, German: Tschaikowski, French: Tchaïkovski. I note also that in your draft, you referred to his wife at least once as as Yanina Shuysky not Shuisky: "with his wife Yanina Shuysky performing as Aida". Also note that for first names, we use transliteration not translation. Thus "Mikhail" not "Michael", e.g. Mikhail Bakunin, Mikhail Glinka, Mikhail Gorbachev, etc.. Please do not attempt to substitute "Michael".
2. As for the role list, when the operas have their own article and are linked, the composer is superfluous, and you certainly don't need to keep repeating "opera by". See Simon Keenlyside and Jean-Étienne-Auguste Massol for examples of properly done role lists. So please don't add the composer back.
3. I can make the images slightly smaller, if you wish, but they should never "sandwich" the text as they were here.

Here is a guide which will help to learn the formatting and style we use on English Wikipedia: Wikipedia:Simplified Manual of Style. Best wishes, Voceditenore (talk) 05:42, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

Press clipping from the newspaper "New Viennese scene"

.

Hello, I'd like to show you this press clipping from the newspaper "New Viennese scene".
This article was written by Deutfch 23 September 1912:

“Neue Wiener Buehne” Wohltaetigkeitsvorstellung bekannten Habeck Schueler. "Herr Michael Schuisky vom Linzer Stadttheater bot als Rigoletto ganz Hervorragendes ebenso in Aida, wo er den Amonasro gab, waerend Frau Fuuina Schuisky als Aida gesanglich und als Darstellerin fehr gutes Koennen zeigte."

Professional interpreter translated this citations into modern English:
The newspaper "New Viennese scene", "Sir Michael Shuisky of the Municipal Theatre in Linz as Rigoletto, and in the role of Amonasro in" Aida "as well, and his wife Yanina Shuysky performing as Aida, showed outstanding vocal performance." 23 September 1912.'"

I will be so happy to find out any trace of Habeck Schueler. This only way to discover what was Mrs Shuisky's maden surename. She was a student from 1905 to 1908. She married to Mr Shuisky in 1906 and changed her name. Would you please tell me how can I discover list of Habeck's students from 1905 to 1908 ?

Many thanksШуйская (talk)Шуйская (talk) 03:48, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

Ah, that clipping helps a lot. But your translator made several mistakes. "Neue Wiener Bühne" is translated into English as "New Viennese Stage (or "Theater")" not as "Scene" in this context, and we always use the original titles for newspapers, not made-up translations. "Herr" is translated into English as "Mr." not "Sir". There was a well-known singing teacher at the Vienna Conservatory at that time whose last name was "Habeck", not his first name. "Schüler" means students. The German sentence is saying that he was a student of Habeck. We can find no trace of an Austrian singing teacher named "Habeck Schueler" or "Habeck Schüler". Also as I pointed out, each European language transliterates Russian names differently. See the different versions of Tchaikovsky above. Plus the paper spelled his wife's last name as "Schuisky", so why did your translator spell it as "Shuysky"?. You can't base the title of an English Wikipedia article on a 1911 Austrian newspaper clipping in German. When he sang in Austria, he may have used a first name translated into German for his stage name, but he was there for only 3 years. The remainder of his 40 year career was in Russia. He was a Russian opera singer, not a German or an Austrian one. Do you think an English Wikipedia article about a Russian opera singer whose entire career, apart from 3 years in Austria when he was very young, should be titled with a first name that is a German translation of his real name? Voceditenore (talk) 07:56, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

• Discussion moved to Talk:Mikhail Shuisky (baritone)#Translation, transliteration, and titling issues. It should be continued there so we can get input from other editors. Voceditenore (talk) 09:00, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

Thanks

Thanks for the thanks. I've just been idly toying around with the article. I don't think I've got the energy to do a thorough overall. Any particular things you want me to look at? (No promises that I'll succeed, mind you).--Folantin (talk) 10:16, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

You're welcome, Folantin :) I love that nifty little "thank" button. I know what you mean about that article, quite a daunting task. Mainly, the names of some of those schools. For the place where he studied in Vienna, the creator linked to this one, but I'm wondering if it really was that. In the draft version he called it both "Academy of Art of the Song in Vienna" and "Imperial Academy of Music and the Performing Arts". I suspect the article may have quite a few inappropriate and/or DAB links. Voceditenore (talk) 10:31, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

Something has gone wrong with that whole section on Vienna. Professor Habeck Schueler? Can't find any references to him. I have a strong suspicion that the original German was mangled when it was translated into Russian. "Schűler" is simply "student", no? --Folantin (talk) 10:47, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

That's what I thought (re the mangling). I now see from a Who's Who entry for another singer that someone with the last name Habeck was a voice teacher at the Vienna Conservatory at the same time as Robert Fuchs (so, the timing's right), but I have no idea what Habeck's first name is. Maybe just call him by the surname? He certainly isn't "Habeck Schueler". Dear oh dear. Voceditenore (talk) 11:03, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, the Livejournal citation says "учился [...] в Вене у проф. Габека.", which is Professor Habeck. I haven't been able to come up with a first name either, but it doesn't matter. --Folantin (talk) 11:41, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

Nigredo Hotel

I've restored the history; it was created by an IP back in 2005. Good luck if you can find them now! GiantSnowman 17:43, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, Snowman! I had no idea it had been around that long. Yes, I doubt if they're still here, even under a registered name. They created a whole slew of stubs on Canadian plays (mostly by Ann-Marie MacDonald) in 2005, and most of them are still unreferenced. :( Best, Voceditenore (talk) 17:55, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

AfC: Articles for creation/J. D. Tytler

Hi. Thanks for your comments. I've included one of the two references you suggested and am looking for ways to improve the article further. I hope the next review takes place soon. Meanwhile, I saw the exchange about Sarva Shiksha Abhiyan, looked up the article, and have (rashly!) taken on the job of rescuing it. Thanks and regards, Amuk (talk) 13:14, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

Template expansion

I'm baffled by your edit summary at Template:Rossini operas: "unexpand interferes too much with image layout". The purpose of the parameter |expanded= is to allow those articles which invoke this template to specify which, if any, of the template's sections are to be shown expanded, in Rossini's case either "Operas" or "Pastiches" or, by default, none. Removing that parameter should have no effect for those articles that don't specify |expanded=. If an article uses that parameter and it interferes with its layout, the use of that parameter in that article can be changed. I know that, if I'm right, the whole thing is probably of no importance as probably no Rossini article uses that parameter for this template. I'm just surprised by your edit summary because I did not expect the behaviour as you describe it. All the best, -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 13:04, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

I just looked and Ivanhoé does use the parameter |expanded=Pastiches and that's probably what you saw. The proper way to deal with that is to change that in the article Ivanhoé. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 13:09, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for that. I'm a complete template klutz. :) I've reverted my template edit and removed the expanded parameter from the Ivanhoé article instead. I hadn't even noticed it there. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 13:24, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

Caught in an autoblock

See [2]

I can't see any block, but the autoblock checker seems to be down at the moment. (I've posted at VP Tech.) Peridon (talk) 17:05, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Peridon, it's very weird. I've just discovered that I only got the autoblock message when I tried to edit a section of Stephen Medcalf (director) instead of the whole article, but whatever glitch it was, it seems to have passed. Thanks so much for your prompt help! Voceditenore (talk) 17:19, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Apparently there is a random autoblock notice appearing, as I understand it from my Autoblock post at WP:VPT. Peridon (talk) 17:23, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Sarva Shiksha Abhiyan

Hi Voce. Long time no speak ;) I'm just letting you know that I have semi'd this article. If you think it should be full protected, let me know. Regards, Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 06:49, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Hi Kudpung! Thanks so much for this. I was wondering who to contact to keep an eye on it. I'll keep a closer eye on it now—a lot of the worst cruft/copyvio etc seems to have happened in the summer months when I'm away—and I'll let you know if it needs full protection. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 07:59, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Passionément

Hi Voce. You created an article the title of which I do not manage to modify. Indeed, a "n" in "Passionnément" is missing. How can it be done? Best, Mikal9 14:20, 7 October 2013 (CEST)

Hi Mika19. I didn't create that article, I only added the Opera Project banner to its talk page. I've now moved the page to the correct title. Thanks so much for pointing that out. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 13:15, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

Pezzi sacri

The festive harp played magnificently, - see image on top of my talk. Next capitalisation question: Quattro Pezzi Sacri or Quattro pezzi sacri, as the rest of the world seems to say, for example it and de? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:08, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Wonderful! Re the Verdi, I'd go for Quattro pezzi sacri, as this is also used in prominent English reference works, e.g. The Oxford Dictionary of Musical Works and Julian Budden's Verdi. This later book has quite a lot of material on the Pezzi. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 10:27, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

I am starting by translating from de, will let you know when you can help ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:06, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

DYK for Quattro pezzi sacri

The DYK project (nominate) 08:38, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

• While it was very generous to add me to the credits, I had virtually nothing to do with this article. I merely did some copy-editing and made some factual corrections. Voceditenore (talk) 10:45, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

• I appreciated it, your profound knowledge of Italian music in this case and in general, and sharing credit was an easy way to express that ;) - What do you think of Category:Wikipedians too sane to participate in the infobox war? I see you in it, and Michael Bednarek, and consider joining myself. I miss those who gave up completely, including Smerus and PumpkinSky, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:58, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

• I think it's a complete contradiction to advertise in red letters on a user page an issue which one is simultaneously claiming not to be interested in. I also think it's very unhelpful to continue the empty rhetoric of "war" and "sanity", even in alleged jest. In my experience, people often use red-linked categories like this to deliberately perpetuate and highlight issues they can't (or won't) let go of. If you're not interested in participating in infobox discussions, simply don't participate. Voceditenore (talk) 12:16, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

wisdom taken, I simply don't participate, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:29, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

ps: Did you know that I turned one of my home-made opera DYK into a real one? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:04, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

Please - I didn't, and I don't, 'give up' on Wikipedia. Nor was I half so concerned over infoboxes as I was at the behaviour of some other editors. I withdrew, and may just be biding my time for a return. Keep well. --Smerus (talk) 13:38, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

I know you didn't, Smerus, and I'm not quite sure what point Gerda was trying to make by saying that, especially in conjunction with PumpkinSky who did not "give up" because of infoboxes at all. He left and asked for his user page to be deleted because an article he was pushing for TFA wasn't run [3]. – Best, Voceditenore (talk) 14:10, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

Ermutigung --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:59, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

Template:Did you know nominations/Ermutigung to all who need it, including myself. In the "sane" mentioned before, I did not (yet) dare to include myself, but keep hoping, and will not use the cat even then. I mentioned two names not as connected to "teh case", I wanted to say that I miss users from both sides. Your description of why PumpkinSky left is overly simple, - not "an article" but the one he left over in 2010 and which he brought back to FA status in collaboration with others. I believe that the incidence of another rejection (against several voices of support) was not the reason for him leaving, but only - as we say - "der Tropfen, der das Fass zum Überlaufen bringt", - is there an equivalent in English for the drop that makes a keg flow over? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:00, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

The English expression is "The straw that broke the camel's back". However, I am fully aware of the circumstances surrounding that article, and I stand by my characterisation. I am also aware of the various other times he has "left" Wikipedia. Voceditenore (talk) 13:37, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for the phrase. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:59, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

Don't give up

I think in a way the "camel" image is not quite suitable, because a camel's back can break only once (I assume), with no way of recovery. Getting to the point of giving up, however, can be different, perhaps reverted. - When I used the phrase "give up" I borrowed from Wehwalt whose line (the caption for an image he took in memory) I quote on top of my talk today, in memory. I respect any reason to give up. The threshold of what is bearable may vary, between people and even for the same person. (Women seem to be more stable and able to take more.) I know that I was close to giving up four times so far. Once a red link helped (I changed it it since.). - My first barnstar was for resilience ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:26, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

Oh I don't know, just find a good orthopedic surgeon who specialises in camels. In English it's sometimes shortened to "This is the last straw!", which of course it very rarely is. By the way, the Italian version is similar to the German one, but "la goccia che fece traboccare il vaso" sounds much more operatic. Highly recommended for people on their third or fourth retirement, and it can be so eloquently elaborated:

Mascalzoni! Vergogna! Questa è la goccia che fece traboccare il vaso! Me ne vado!

Voceditenore (talk) 09:56, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

Grazie! - Imagine: if I had left, I would have missed this gasping recitativo ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:15, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

Ermutigung appeared, and I still love opera ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:10, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

Administrator?

Well his talkpage says he is! Should I be going for impersonation as well? :-}--Smerus (talk) 07:43, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

His talk page doesn't say anything about being an admin. His user page says he's an administrator on uk.wikimedia.org, not here. Note also his user rights [4]. It doesn't change the basic thrust of your argument, though. The shenanigans at RW and the similar attempt at the OP talk page a couple of days before the TFA for Carmen in April [5] were basically attempts to game the topic ban, in my view, and ended up being quite disruptive. I'm quite sure there will be more of the same every time an article without an infobox (regardless of its subject, but especially if it is remotely related to classical music) comes up for TFA. 08:29, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

• This is a different point, but it's the same title I'd use so putting it here. Have you given thought to running for adminship at WP:RFA? I'd certainly nominate you, you do a lot on the site and I run into you enough to know that you'd be good with the tools. Wizardman 00:31, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) I think you'll find Voce has had adminship suggested a couple of times already ;) Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 06:31, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Yep. As Figaro would say, "tutti mi chiedono, tutti mi vogliono". Seriously though, thank you Wizardman for the vote of confidence, but adminship would just distract me from content work (broadly construed). I could use the ability to see deleted articles, as this is very useful for copyright clean up, but it seems there is no support for any admin rights to be unbundled. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 07:52, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Christmas 2013

Cold?

	Best wishes
	for the holidays and 2014 from a warmer place than where you probably are ;) Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 11:38, 21 December 2013 (UTC)

Merry Christmas

		Holiday Cheer
		Victuallers talkback is wishing Voceditenore Season's Greetings! Thanks, this is just to celebrate the holiday season and promote WikiLove, and hopefully makes your day a little better. Spread the seasonal good cheer by wishing another user a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year, whether it be someone with whom you had disagreements in the past, a good friend, or just some random person. Share the good feelings. - Vic/Roger inspired by this - you could do the same

Reciprocation

Pianist at frontlines of Euromaidan protest 7.12.2013

Many thanks for your good wishes, which are warmly reciprocated! Here's a snap I took a few days ago of a pianist playing a merry ditty in Kiev - it's so peaceful back here in London!--Smerus (talk) 12:32, 22 December 2013 (UTC)

Great photo, Smerus. Wow an EU piano no less. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 14:22, 22 December 2013 (UTC)

Seasonal greetings

	Christmas greetings for 2013 and best wishes for 2014. Peace on earth and goodwill to all May you take pleasure in all you do and find success and happiness
	Brianboulton (talk) 21:48, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

Merry Christmas...

...from me too. (Sorry, I haven't had time to come up with a swanky greetings card). Seasons greetings. --Folantin (talk) 13:22, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

Christmas DYK

Thanks, but don't forget it still has to be nominated at T:TDYK with an appropriate hook. Gatoclass (talk) 11:39, 24 December 2013 (UTC)

@Voceditenore

Hello, obviously I'm not able to create an article from the technicial side in Wikipedia. First, I want to confirm that's me who created the article on Schliessmann for <artistsinternational>; second, because now I don't have any further idea, perhaps, you asw an objective person could do the article about <Schliessmann> for Wikipedia? Perhaps we both could work on it? Otherwise, if not, I'm sure, the artist himself can live without being represented on Wikipedia ... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Elvirtuoso (talk • contribs) 21:31, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

Hi. Thanks for getting in touch. I'm pretty sure he's notable enough for a Wikipedia article, and I'll see if I can start one in the next couple of days. The problem with using biographies from artist management sites, even if they weren't copyright violations, is that the wording is way too promotional for a Wikipedia article. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 21:37, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

Burkard Schliessmann

Dear Voceditenore,

I just did a hard work with the pianistic style of Burkard Schliessmann. These are my own words, which nowhere are copied; I also included a citation of a review of FANFARE, also with all details of references, edition, pages and so on (I also talked to the editor, that I can do it). But: You deleted all. There is no reason not to describe the style of an artist. Also on the artist's homepage these words can not be found. So, I would be very glad if you could tell me how I could include this essential part. Thank you so much! Hearing soonest, sincerestly, Joanna — Preceding unsigned comment added by Joanna at EVP (talk • contribs) 20:37, 18 December 2013 (UTC) SORRY, I just forgot to log out without signature. Would be great if we could collaborate! THANKS!--Joanna at EVP (talk) 20:50, 18 December 2013 (UTC)--Joanna at EVP (talk) 20:54, 18 December 2013 (UTC)--Joanna at EVP (talk) 20:55, 18 December 2013 (UTC)--Joanna at EVP (talk) 20:56, 18 December 2013 (UTC)--Joanna at EVP (talk) 21:32, 18 December 2013 (UTC) Dear Voceditenore, it would really be nice if you could answer and could go in help: My files NEVERWHERE can be found. I just tried to get the article an adequate depth, so it is not just about to delete this files ... There is no copyright-violation, no copying of something else. All has been citated in objectively manner. And NOT from the site of the artist himself. My sincerest greetings and thanks, looking forward your help, Joanna --Joanna at EVP (talk) 22:56, 18 December 2013 (UTC)

Replied at length on your talk page [6]. Voceditenore (talk) 13:42, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

Dear Voceditenore, I thank for your comment(s). As a music-lover you should know, that there always are different meanings on the ame subject. You mention - for example - the Goldberg-Variations. OK. Then please also check here for the same subject: MusicWeb. Sorry: With the <citations> I didn't know the guidelines. Of course I could make other references. There are a lot. And again: I don't have a conflict of interest, because I don't know the artist personally. I would suggest, to leave the site as it is, nobody needs to take the effort for writing about the artist's style. Can we agree on it? All the best, sincerestly, Joanna--Joanna at EVP (talk) 13:23, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

I am copying your comment to your talk page. Please continue the conversation there. Voceditenore (talk) 13:42, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

Dear Voceditenore, please allow some thoughts: I regret so much that from the first beginning we both couldn't find a common understanding - despite your big knowledge about music. Repeatedly I had the impression that you are against me and the artist of the article. You have assumed that I'm not objective and have a conflict of interest. This really is not true. In fact, I left the company (for being retired) before the artist had been a client, but not for PR. With your knowledge you should know that envy and jealousy are virtues of our life - and of this business. There are countless reviews and quotes worldwide, which are documenting the outstanding artistry of the mentioned artist - as pianist and organist. And you take out 2 (in words: two!) reviews which - demonstrably - are directed against him for personal reasons - which (the reasons) I do know very well and have their reasons in resentments ... So, in consequence I deleted the complete 'talk' on my page (please understand this). I really did hope that we both could collaborate on the mission I wanted and described. For example, because you cite American Record Guide: The Editor, Don Vroon, mentioned in the march/april-edition 2013 the artist to the 15 most favored pianists worldwide (only living and active pianists). So, frankly, I only can hope that you don't harm this artist - this also would be against the rules of Wiki, which especially you represent so much! This is my wish for Christmas 2013. The article in the running version (on which you also worked on) is excellent and can run for the next time - without change/addition. Wishing you all the best, merry christmas and and a happy New Year, sincerestly, Joanna (an answer is not necessary...)--Joanna at EVP (talk) 22:45, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

Joanna, I have not assumed that you have a conflict of interest, I know that you do per what you wrote here and here. The fact that you still do not understand this is regrettable as it manifested itself in the production of a poor article for what I am sure is a distinguished artist. I have nothing against Mr. Schliessmann personally, and in fact had never heard of him before I removed the copyright infringement from the first version last June. Nor do I (or any other editors here) have the slightest intention of "harming" him. I explained this very fully on your talk page and tried to make you aware of the guidelines that articles need to follow and why. I also tried to explain to you what a balanced neutral approach entailed. As it is, I put quite a lot of work into that article, copy-editing to improve the poor English, lack of compliance with the Wikipedia Manual of style, etc. Not a word of thanks from you. It still needs considerable work on both the writing style and content, but as far as I'm concerned it can stay the way it is. I have far better things to do with my time. Voceditenore (talk) 16:00, 22 December 2013 (UTC)

Dear Voceditenore, obviously a total misunderstanding. First: I have to apologize for this. AND: SECOND: My sincerest thanks for all you did with this article. It's never my mission and character to express no thank where it is necessary. Since I was supported/assisted by another lady who professionally writes artist-biographies in American English, I thought, it's good. Problem: Also she herself had been "new" for Wiki and its philosophy. Now, we understand. Also in this coherence my deepest apologizes. Therefore again my appreciations for your excellent work. One wish: As you also mean, the article can stay the way it is by time perhaps you could delete the file for "copy-editing" on the "talk-page" of this article. Privately - a very kind recommendation: In view you didn't know this artist before, you perhaps really can listen to some of the recordings, like the Goldbergs or the Anniversary-Edition or others. Your assessment of a distinguished artist will be manifested, and - perhaps - also a new artistical experience for someone of your caliber. Would be nice to stay in contact. Now, I wish you and your family a merry christmas and all the best for the upcoming New Year 2014! With my best regards, Joanna--Joanna at EVP (talk) 10:51, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

Hello Joanna. I have added an update to Talk:Burkard Schliessmann with respect to my having removed the maintenance tag for copyediting and why, but no, I will not remove my original comment or the update comment. Article talk pages are meant to be a record of the discussions and comments by editors working to improve the article. Deleting legitimate comments (even one's own) is considered bad practice except in very specific cases of policy violation (e.g. defamation of the subject or severe personal attacks on another editor). See Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines or if you prefer de:Wikipedia:Diskussionsseiten for more. As you will see if you read those guides, this edit, which you made on the German Wikipedia goes against those guidelines. You should consider restoring the comments by you and the editor who responded to you there. In the meantime my best wishes to you and your family for a very happy Christmas and new year. Voceditenore (talk) 12:37, 23 December 2013 (UTC)