User talk:Veliath - Wikipedia

Hi, Just noticed that nobody had welcomed you. So here you go -

Hello, Veliath, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

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India related links

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Hi,

Malabarian Jewish - Nasrani tradition

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Hi Veliath, you are right the page Nasrani should be redirected to the page Syrian malabar nasrani, or to the page Syriac Christianity.

it was originally redirected to Syriac Christianity but several vandals tampered with the pages on syrian malabar nasrani and st thomas christians. In fact there was an entire section on st thomas christians explaining its nasrani context which was systematically destroyed by vandals. Instead they wrote in factually inaccurate statements about the st thomas christians being marathas and telegu which is still there on the page Saint Thomas Christians.

here I post to you the passages destroyed by the vandals:

>>>>>

This article deals with the Saint Thomas Christian churches and denominations of the Nasrani people

The Saint Thomas Christians (Malayalam: Nasrani) are a group of Christians from the Malabar coast (now Kerala) in South India, who follow Syriac Christianity. The different groups and denominations within the St Thomas Christians together form the Nasrani people. Their tradition goes back to the very beginnings of first century Christian thought, and the seven churches that are believed to have been established by St. Thomas the Apostle.

Nasrani and Saint Thomas Christian tradition

The Nasranis are an ethnic people and in that sense a single community. However the Nasranis have various denominations as a result of Portuguese persecution. As an ethnic community they refer to themselves as Nasranis referring to the common cultural heritage and cultural tradition. However as a religious group they refer to themselves as the Mar Thoma Khristianis or in English as Saint Thomas Christians referring to the various and diverse religious denominations between them in terms of their religious tradition, despite a common ancestory of being the descendants of the early Mar Thoma church or Saint Thomas tradition of Christianity.

These first century churches, according to tradition, were, from north to south: Palayoor near Guruvayoor/Kunnankulam, Cranganore (believed to be the ancient Muziris of Pliny, and the Periplus, on the north bank of Periyar River today), Paravoor on the south side of Periyar, Gokkamangalam or Kokkamangalam, Niranam, Chayal or Nilakkal (the only inland church) and the Lakes or Kaayals, and finally Kollam. The visit of the Apostle Thomas to these places and to Mylapore on the East coast of India can be read in the Ramban Song of Thomas Ramban, set into modern writing c. 1500.

<<<<<

Besides you said about doubts on whether st Thomas the apostle did land in the malabar coast. here please refer to the page Gondophares on the wikipedia. Hope it might help you.

I forgot to sign, Robin klein 17:50, 31 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hello Robin
I am well aware of Gondophares. But there is no proof that the Apostle Thomas landed in Kerala or in Parthia for that matter! I have been reading up on this for years. I'm a Syrian Christian myself and it is important to me to nail down what exactly is known for sure and what isn't. The fact that Syrian Christian folklore and texts have been mentioning Gondophores before independent proof of his existence was discovered (coins et al) adds credibility to these claims - but not proof. My sources have been primarily the books sold by SARAS - that are collections of classic papers on the subject. I can make the PDF version of the 1st book available to you - Prof Menachery has given me his verbal permission to do this. Another source is Leslie Brown's "The Indian Christians of St Thomas". Perhaps most importantly, I do not think the Apostle's visit explains the subsequent history of the Syrian Christian community. So beyond logging this bit of folklore that is close to people's hearts, I do not think it should be the central basis for the history of the Nasranis.

Also, shall we redirect Nasrani to Syrian Malabar Nasrani?

Thanks a lot for responding,

(Veliath 04:37, 1 February 2006 (UTC))[reply]

Yes, please redirect the page Nasrani to Syrian malabar Nasrani. Also, may be you could restore the passages that explained the terms of Nasrani and Saint Thomas Christians (on the page Saint Thomas Christians), which I posted above, removing the erroneous statements about marathas and telugus. I liked what you wrote on the kerala talk page about nasrani mapillas etc. you could add them too. Thanks Robin klein 12:02, 1 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Veliath,

I saw the text you wrote for the article Kerala and also History of Kerala. It is great work. Please keep coming back and constantly adding more information. Please also check out what I added about the term mappilla according to Hermann Gundert in the introductory passages of the article syrian malabar nasrani. great work once again, thanks Robin klein 17:06, 8 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I will create a redirect of mapilla to mappila etc. I think the "muslim mappilla" should have a page named "Jonakan mappilla" or just "muslim mappilla" while the page mapplia / mappilla should contain the basic definition of the common term for both the mappilla communities with west asian origins. Just as you wrote with all the citations and also with the definition of hermann gundert as stated in the page syrian malabar nasrani. Also please check out the talk page of kerala. In your absence a lot of debate has been done on the semitic influence in kerala. Robin klein 18:37, 8 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The debate on vandalism by maabahuka has indeed shifted to kerala talk page. it is going on there. Robin klein 13:32, 11 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Review request

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Hi! I've put the Kochi article up for a peer review. Could you please see the article and post your comments here?
Thanks!-- thunderboltz^{a.k.a.Deepu_Joseph |TALK} 10:15, 12 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, so I meet yet another Deepu Joseph, eh? Haha!

. Ceeya around. And thanks! -- thunderboltz^{a.k.a.Deepu_Joseph |TALK} 13:07, 27 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

On the Syrian Christians (Nasrani Mappilas) and their origins --Veliath (Posted to Kerala's Talk page)

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Hello all. I would like to weigh in with my take on the origin of the Syrian Christians aka Nasrani Mappilas. Some of it is theoretical, some of it is based on folklore, some on known trends in Kerala&India. Some of the theory is mine, some of it is others. I will try to separate out each of these as I present my take on the history of the Syrian Christians(SyrChrs).

Perhaps the most important point to keep in mind is that it is well known and documented that the Syrian Christians are not homogeneous - not culturally, not genetically nor in terms of social status.

Culturally the SyrChrs have practises that differ across localities as well as across families. Some SyrChrs families are considered "high" born while others are not considered so.

It is well known that SyrChrs practised polygyny (and in some cases polyandry) where the subsequent wives would be from socially lower (usually Hindu)communities. Further, many families and whole communities claim descent from Jewish settlers. Others claim Brahmin descent.

The differences in claimed descent meant that SyrChr communities were accorded different social statuses in different regions. In many areas they were perpetually in conflict with Nairs for patronage and the granting of privileges from the local kings or chieftains.

I hope to address these issues in my version of the SyrChr Origin_story:-)

West Asian Identity

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A key element that separates out the Mappila communities from the others in India and Kerala is the obvious West Asian influence. It is generally believed that this points to a West Asian origin for the communities. It is documented that around the beginning of the Christian era Muziris on Kerala's coast was the largest trading port on India's Western coast known for its West Asian settlements.

Trade in Early India, Oxford University Press says the following on page 66: "Thanks to a graphic description left behind by Pliny, historians are able to trace the development of the sea-route to the west coast of India in four-stages. The most developed route, which was also the shortest and safest,began from the Red Sea port of Myos Hormos and /or Berenice and reached the famous Malabar port of Muziris (Muciri of the Tamil Sangam texts) in forty days by following the Hippalus (i.e. the south-western monsoon) wind. Pliny states that the earliest point of maritime contacts between India and the West was Patalene in the Indus delta; the subsequent point was the port of Barbaricum on the middle mouth of the Indus. The third stage made Sigerius or Jaigarh on the Konkan coast the convenient harbour and finally, Muziris became the most important port of call." Essentially by the time Pliny wrote things down Muziris was well established as a major port of call for Roman shipping. Note that the term Roman refers in general to the peoples ruled by the Romans - which included portions of Arabia and regions around the Mediterranean - i.e. present day Palestine/Israel, Armenia and Africa.

The Indian Christians of St Thomas, Leslie Brown adds the following on page 60:"At first(from about 90 B.C.) ships went from Aden and other Arabian ports direct to Bombay and finally discovered how to sail direct, diagonally across to Muziris, the port of Malabar, instead of tacking laboriously down the coast. Malabar was in any case the end of the voyage. for it was from there that pepper, spices and precious stones were exported." He goes on to say on page 61 "We know something about the extent of this trade from references in Latin writers and from coins discovered in south India. Arikamedu was an established Roman trading station and the Peutinger Tables show a temple of Augustus near Muziris, and it is said that two Roman cohorts were stationed there to guard the warehouses. Pliny speaks with some dismay of a trade which cost the empire about one and a half million sesterces a year, chiefly for luxuries like pepper, ginger and precious stones, with no reciprocal export trade to compensate". On page 62 he says "Some Tamil classics(Silapadhigaaram, Manimekalai) also speak of this trade. One poem speaks of Muziris, where `agitating the white foam of the Periyar river, the beautifully built ships of the Yavanas(Westerners) came with gold and returned with pepper, and Muziris resounded with the noise'; and in another poem we read of the Pandya king drinking `the cool and fragrant wine brought by the Yavanas in their good ships'. We also read that some Indian rajas employed bodyguards of Western soldiers --`the valiant-eyed Yavanas whose bodies were strong and of terrible aspect'; who were `excellent guardians of the gates of the fort walls'."

Now nothing is mentioned of the ethnic makeup of these West Asians, but to me it seems to be primarily Semitic (Arabs and Jews), Persian, Aremenian, Abyssinan, Egyptian and of course the Graeco-Roman elites themselves. It should also be noted that Muziris was famous before a direct sea-route to it was found.

These settlers would have been entire families/communities or simply male traders who setup factories on Kerala's shores. Many would have taken Indian wives. Over generations they would have formed a distinct community. It has been suggested that this could be the reason for the term Mappila(groom) being used to refer to them - a community formed by foreign grooms setting up families on Kerala's shores.

As has been documented by Robin Klein, many Jewish refugee communities found their way down to Kerala, typically travelling down the trading routes and settling in the relatively cosmopolitan trading locations on the Malabar Coast. J.N.Farquhar in "The Apostle Thomas in North India" (available in The Nazranies, edited by Prof. George Menachery) theorizes that the Jews were dispersed all the way from Syria to Parthia, many were engaged in trade and that for the Apostle Thomas "his kinsmen the Jews would be the chief objective". Essentially, he believes that any visit by the Apostle to Malabar would have been to proselytize amongst the thriving Jewish community "dispersed" as he puts it from Syria to Parthia with their communities extending all the way down to the Malabar coast. The Apostle's visit though very plausible will remain categorized as folklore.

As Christianity began to catch on in West Asia (both Arabia and Persia) and later the Roman Empire, the religious make up of the Yavanas to Kerala's shores began to become more Christian. Their persecution in the early centures probably only added to their increased settlement on Kerala's shores. These Christian communities would eventually be called Nasrani Mappilas.

Another major development in West Asian Christianity mirrored in Kerala is the (East)Roman vs Parthian empire hostility that resulted in the East and West Syrian Churchs. Today this is represented by the Syro-Malankara and Jacobite&Orthodox denominations following a West Syriac liturgy (centered around present day Syria & Lebanon) while the Syro-Malabar, Chaldean and Church of the East following an East Syriac derived liturgy (centered around present day Iraq & Iran). It is very likely that both Churches had communities in Kerala in obedience to them within years of the split.

With the advent of Islam the demographic of the Mappilas would have started changing again. There might have been a brief increase in settlements from those escaping persecution, following which the number of Muslims amongst the West Asians would have increased - especially amongst the Arabs.

As documented by Leslie Brown(page 81) the Muslim settlers would eventually push the Christian ones into the hinterland. Contact with West Asians would now be primarily Muslim, but Christian and Jewish traders would continue to visit Kerala's shores.

Unions with Indian communities and social integration

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With the decrease in overseas Christian contacts, the Nasrani Mappila communities would have become more Indianized.

The Mappilas were patronized for the money they brought in to the coffers of the various kings and chieftains under whose suzerainty they traded. As their numbers increased they would have provided soldiers and weapons to their chieftains which in turn would have been rewarded with grants of land and social privileges. Some communites like the Knanaya community were granted land on immigration. This coupled with the loss of control of the trading ports to the Muslims would have resulted in the Nasranis becoming a landed community growing the spices and timber they historically traded.

Leslie Brown notes(pages 169-171) that in a lot of areas SyrChrs and Nairs were considered equals and were constantly in competition for royal patronage and privilege. The SyrChrs took wives and very likely accepted grooms after the Marumakkathayam fashion from amongst the Nairs.

Excerpts from The Indian Christians of St Thomas, Leslie Brown page 169:"They were given charge of the collection of revenue for the rajas in certain places and in the fourteenth century Marignolli found that they were in charge of the public weighing office in the Quilon customs. Associated with concessions in the pepper and other trades was the grant of service from certain castes and the responsibility of protecting them." On page 171 he writes: "The Christians shared many other things besides names with the Nayars. They occasionally took wives from that community, and their children often went to school with Nayar children...Many families still have certain privileges in the temples which are believed to have been granted in recognition of some service given or some present made in former times. For example at the Arat festival in Parappatattu temple the oldest member of the Pulikkamarrattil family of Syrians (who bore the title of Panikkar or Menon)had the right to go before the image of the deity and received rice and other presents". On page 170 he says: "The other privileges granted by the rajas were of use in establishing the position of the Christians in society and as such were most jealously guarded. In the sixteenth century the raja of Paravur tried to give similar privileges to the Nayars of his State but the Christians rose in armed revolt and forced him to change his mind"

It is likely that in places where Nairs and Christians were on par socially, or the latter higher (as in Paravur above), it is my belief that the increasing social clout of the SyrChrs would have resulted in some of these families being able to participate in the practise of Marumakkathayam with scions of Namboothiri families. The children born to these marriages would claim Namboothiri descent on the male side (the SyrChrs were patrilineal) and the families of today that claim Brahmin blood very likely are descended from these unions. The tale of Namboothiri conversions by the Apostle Thomas could be an attempt at hoariness by these families in my opinion.

Various sources including Leslie Brown and such documents as the Synod of Diamper mention the practise of cohabition with Indian slave women - i.e. women from the oppressed labour communities of Kerala. This would have resulted in the children from these marriages becoming part of the SyrChr communities.

The Synod of Diamper has a "Decree XI" in it's "Action IX. Of the Reformation of Manners." section that reads: "Whereas there are great numbers of Christians who for want of having the Fear of God and the Church before their Eyes, do cohabit publickly with Concubines, to the great scandal of Christianity; the Vicars shall therefore with great Charity admonish all such Offenders, three times declaring to them, That if they do not reform, they must declare them Excommunicate, and if after so many Admonitions they do not turn away their Concubines, they must be Excommunicated until they are effectually parted, and be punished with other Penalties at the pleasure of the Prelate, according to the time that they have lived in that Sin, and when it shall so happen that their Concubines are their Slaves, they shall constrain them not only to turn them out of their Houses, but to send them out of the Country where they live, that there may be no more danger of their relapsing, which shall be likewise observed as to all other Women where there is the same danger."

The SyrChr communities continued to be churned as the fortunes of the kings & chieftains they owed allegiance to changed over time. The strange bubble like nature of the caste system prevalent in Kerala allowed the SyrChr communities to retain their West Asian customs and practises to a significant degree.

--Veliath 12:45, 20 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Do let me know what you'll have to say. I have tried to quote citations - I feel that would be more convincing and allow us to reach agreement faster. I'm sorry for not responding sooner to this discussion. I don't have time except on weekends for major edits/submissions. --Veliath

Feedback/Discussion

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Hi, Veliath,

I have put up your text on syrian christian origin and history on the syrian malabar nasrani talk page. I think it needs to be there. nice work. thanks Robin klein 01:40, 12 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Savemalayalam attempts to savebandwidth

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Hi friend, I suggest removing that bandwidth eating png image of yours and potingnthe jpg version.Many of the Internet visitors in Kerala are on dialup connections with 2-4kB average speed. Savemalayalam 17:39, 2 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia talk:Notice board for India-related topics/Kerala

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Hello! Can you please add Wikipedia talk:Notice board for India-related topics/Kerala to your watchlist, so that you don't miss out on the Kerala related discussions? Thanks! -- thunderboltz^{a.k.a.Deepu Joseph |TALK}10:22, 11 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Notification: changes to "Mark my edits as minor by default" preference

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