User talk:Tiamut/Bayt Nuba

Sources

~~Bait Nuba during the Crusades per Pringle~~ and Setton Tiamut^talk 18:22, 2 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Refugee testimonies and UN Special Committee conclusionson the destruction Tiamut^talk 18:24, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
~~Bayt Nouba's name and its forming part of Jerusalem as known in the time of Mujir al-Din al-'Ulaymi~~ Tiamut^talk 18:54, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

- Striking those added, here and below. Tiamut^talk 01:19, 4 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Work space

File:CanadaParkCropped.jpg shows current location wrt Canada Park

Infobox: is here a way to make it say "Expulsion by Israeli forces"? "Yishiv forces" is odd for 1967. Also, which map?

I've asked Al Ameer son about the template field and how to make it have another option. For the map, I'm not sure. Funny how on the Palestinian territories map it falls within those territories and yet its pretty much been annexed to Israel. If we use the Israel map, where will it fall? Is the line adjusted in that map to include East Jerusalem? Maybe we should use the Canada Park map instead? Or make a graphic with it besides an overview map? Tiamut^talk 14:39, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

1946 British topographic map shows this place as "Beit Nuba & 'Ajanjul". There is an article Ajanjul rather poorly sourced. PEF map does not show a village but Khalidi (p358-9) identifies it with Kh. el Junjul about 2km to the NNW. A late mandate map also shows it in that location.

[1] Seems 'Ajanjul was an offshoot village of Bayt Nuba that was occupied by the Abu Ghosh family in the 18th century - it was the place from wherethey controlled traffic through the Valley of Ayalon and Beit Liqya. Tiamut^talk 19:22, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

All text from SWP III,p14: Beit Nuba (K s).—A good-sized village on flat ground, with a well to the north. It is mentioned under the name Beth Annabam ('Onomasticon,' s. v. Anob) as 8 Roman miles from Lydda. The true distance is about 9 English miles. Jerome (Epit. S. Paulae) makes it the site of Nob. Benjamin of Tudela (1163 A.D.) makes the same statement. In Crusading times the place was commonly called Betenuble (William of Tyre, etc.).

Added most of the above, omitting only the well to the north. Jerome is already mentioned as is Betenuble. Tiamut^talk 01:22, 4 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Benjamin of Tudela mentions it, as SWP says. He might have said that two Jewish dyers lived there but the text is ambiguous.

Quite a few mentions in relation to Richard the Lion-Heart. For example this

Testimony of Amos Kenan re 1967 expulsions. In This Land is Our Land (Metzer, Orth, & Sterling, p135) and Documents from Israel (Davis and Mezvinsky). Don't see online at the moment. uncitable copy

Unipal documents: [2] [3] [4] [5]

Quite a bit in this; reliability needs to be assessed.

Found a similar article by the same author in the book Struggles for home: violence, hope and the movement of people. The publisher is Berghahn Books. Also has more detailed information. Tiamut^talk 18:36, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Benvenisti supposed to have something.

Guerin, Judee 1, p285-290. Large section as "Beit-Nouba".

Link to online version of Guerin [6] (search for Nouba) Tiamut^talk 19:51, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Not clearly citable but very detailed with many references: [7] Zero^talk 07:41, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

[8] Robinson mentions that Beit Nuba was often confused with Annabah, the former being 8 miles from Lydda and the latter being 4 miles from Lydda. Do we have an article on Annabah? I can't seem to find it. Was it destroyed in 1948? Tiamut^talk 18:10, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It is Innaba. SWP call it 'Annabeh, mandate era docs call it 'Innaba. I see Bayt Innaba on one Hebrew map. Zero^talk 01:46, 4 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Nice. That looks like an article we could work on next. Tiamut^talk 11:17, 4 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

FYI, there was a road between Bait Nuba and al-Qubayba used in medieval times. [9] Tiamut^talk 18:40, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The road may have been linked to al-Qubeiba, Jerusalem, rather the al-Qubayba linked above. Tiamut^talk 00:55, 4 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Qubeiba, Jerusalem is much closer, but amazingly the PEF map shows a "Roman road" from Beit Nuba all the way to the southern Qubeiba. There is also a modern road almost a straight line between these two places, though it does not follow the same path as the Roman road. Zero^talk 06:47, 4 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Very cool. Can we use that map as a source to include information on it being a Roman road (and medieval era road per the other source)? Tiamut^talk 11:17, 4 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Wouldn't that be...(glances furtively around)....Original Research? (pardon my French). Zero^talk 12:15, 4 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Do you know if the Nuba mentioned here is one and the same as Bayt Nuba? Does a Nuba appear in the 1596 census? If Mujir al-Din recalls it in his writings in the 15th century, I'm guessing it might have still been around in the 16th. Any insight into this? Tiamut^talk 19:06, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There is a different village Nuba still existing in the Hebron district, see Nuba, Hebron. Neither that one nor Beit Nuba appeared in the 1596 list as far as I can tell, unless they had different names then. There are quite a lot of 1596 villages whose modern identities are unknown. Zero^talk 01:19, 4 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for finding that Nuba. I added the info from the source there. Tiamut^talk 11:17, 4 June 2011 (UTC) PS. The idea that there are lots of villages missing modern identities makes me want to go back and finish my PhD with a new thesis focusing on those lost villages. Tiamut^talk 11:18, 4 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Nothing at all in Morris Revisited.

Given that we mention several old identifications of Bayt Nuba as Nob, perhaps we should note that modern authorities don't accept it. I have a 1932 article of Albright which makes this clear, but can we find a more recent source? Zero^talk 08:00, 28 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This paper (refers to Givat Shapira = French Hill, 17255/13440) : "The site of our fortress is characterized by its superb geographical location, upon a hill that controls the road approaching Jerusalem from the north and commands a wide view that includes the Temple Mount and Jerusalem’s Western Hill. This well chosen geographical location fits well with the identification as the biblical town of Nob. This town, according to biblical references, was south of Gibeah (Tell el-Fûl), neighbor to Anathoth ('Anata) and 'Ananiah (el-'Azariyeh), and was located close enough to Jerusalem to be able to observe the capital city (see Kallai 1968: 684). Other sites suggested to be identified with Nob, such as 'Issawiyeh, Shu'afat, or Ras et-Tmim, are to be rejected, because of the absence of proper archaeological finds and because biblical Jerusalem cannot be observed from these sites (see Dinur 1987: 65)."
Boaz Zissu, Excavations near Nahmanides Cave in Jerusalem and the Question of the Identification of Biblical Nob, Israel exploration journal, Vol. 62, Nº. 1, 2012 , pp. 54-70. As well as the theories mentioned by Barkay, Zissu mentions Mount Scopus and at-Tur. Then he suggests a location in Sheik Jarrah.

Either way, we need to be careful to not give the impression that the identification of Beit Nuba with Nob is taken seriously today. Actually it seems to be rarely even mentioned.

Why is this still sitting here?

Why is this still sitting in your sandbox?! It looks ready. --Fjmustak (talk) 01:22, 22 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]