User talk:Ravenpuff/Archives/2024/October
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ITN recognition for Paul White, Baron Hanningfield
On 24 October 2024, In the news was updated with an item that involved the article Paul White, Baron Hanningfield, which you updated. If you know of another recently created or updated article suitable for inclusion in ITN, please suggest it on the candidates page. Schwede66 16:33, 24 October 2024 (UTC)
"Baroness Cryer"
Hi,
Regarding your edit here, my understanding is that the wife of a hereditary baron is a baroness, but John Cryer is a life peer. Ellie Reeves has the right to use "Lady Cryer" as a courtesy title, but doesn't, as mentioned in the article.
Best wishes, Jean-de-Nivelle (talk) 15:54, 30 October 2024 (UTC)
- @Jean-de-Nivelle: The wife of any baron (whether hereditary or for life) is a baroness; for instance, see Samantha Cameron or a different article in Category:Spouses of life peers. Whether we should include "Baroness Cryer" in the infobox/lead is a separate discussion, but I would say that we should at least mention it in the lead (as her "formal title"), even if we omit it from the infobox. This is the practice used for Emily Thornberry, for example. — RAVENPVFF · talk · 16:44, 30 October 2024 (UTC)
- I'm beginning to suspect that I've been hasty. But could you point to reliable (off-wiki) sources to back that up? I can't find references to Samantha Cameron as "Baroness Cameron", for example, or any official ruling on the correct titles. Jean-de-Nivelle (talk) 17:36, 30 October 2024 (UTC)
- @Jean-de-Nivelle: There are some useful sources cited at Baron § Styles of address – especially this page from Debrett's about barons and their wives. Basically, in the same way that our article on David Cameron has "Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton" in the infobox and "Baron Cameron of Chipping Norton" in the lead, the same practice applies to Samantha Cameron, with "Lady"/"Baroness" being the corresponding female terms. Samantha Cameron hasn't been in the news since her husband was made a peer in November 2023, but she is definitely entitled to be referred to as "Baroness Cameron [of Chipping Norton]" through him. — RAVENPVFF · talk · 19:23, 30 October 2024 (UTC)
- Well, I was certainly mistaken about the hereditary aspect, so please accept my apologies. I did find this document (p.20) issued by the Passport Office that says: "The title of baron and baroness is not usually used, except by peeresses in their own right", but perhaps that only applies to passports. Jean-de-Nivelle (talk) 21:29, 30 October 2024 (UTC)
- @Jean-de-Nivelle: No worries. As regards that document, I think the sentence you quoted merely refers to the fact that you see peers formally referred to as "Lord Smith" but not "Baron Smith", which practice is reflected in Wikipedia infoboxes. However, "Baroness Smith" is used for women who are peers in their own right. — RAVENPVFF · talk · 22:07, 30 October 2024 (UTC)
- Well, I was certainly mistaken about the hereditary aspect, so please accept my apologies. I did find this document (p.20) issued by the Passport Office that says: "The title of baron and baroness is not usually used, except by peeresses in their own right", but perhaps that only applies to passports. Jean-de-Nivelle (talk) 21:29, 30 October 2024 (UTC)
- @Jean-de-Nivelle: There are some useful sources cited at Baron § Styles of address – especially this page from Debrett's about barons and their wives. Basically, in the same way that our article on David Cameron has "Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton" in the infobox and "Baron Cameron of Chipping Norton" in the lead, the same practice applies to Samantha Cameron, with "Lady"/"Baroness" being the corresponding female terms. Samantha Cameron hasn't been in the news since her husband was made a peer in November 2023, but she is definitely entitled to be referred to as "Baroness Cameron [of Chipping Norton]" through him. — RAVENPVFF · talk · 19:23, 30 October 2024 (UTC)
- I'm beginning to suspect that I've been hasty. But could you point to reliable (off-wiki) sources to back that up? I can't find references to Samantha Cameron as "Baroness Cameron", for example, or any official ruling on the correct titles. Jean-de-Nivelle (talk) 17:36, 30 October 2024 (UTC)