User talk:Random86/Archive 3

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Hawwah (Gain EP)

This album hasn't been released yet and is all written in future tense. Do you wanna do that thing you do where it goes away? :) Shinyang-i (talk) 09:32, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

It's most likely WP:TOOSOON, but it does have prose and sources so idk. I'm not sure how the guidelines apply here. Random86 (talk) 07:23, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

Me either. I'm just so very sick of this article-before-it's-released crap. I deleted a bunch of stuff like the "release history"...since an unrelased item has no release history. I revisited it and I guess it's okay; the editor who created has some actual editing history and I'm guessing is unlikely to leave it in present tense forever, as happens with so many of these situations. :) Shinyang-i (talk) 07:38, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, I've come across album articles still written in future tense even though the album has been out for years. By the way, would you (or anyone, really) mind looking over No No No (A Pink song) and Secret Garden (EP)? I had merged them before because there wasn't much there, but another editor later expanded both articles. (It was discussed on Talk:Pink Luv.) I think the song article is in pretty good shape, but I'm not sure about some parts like "perfect for the Spring season" (POV?). The album article looks like it needs a lot of editing, but I don't know where to start. Random86 (talk) 07:51, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

I took a quick look and both of those are in pretty decent shape, actually. The song one is pretty impressive and well-sourced for a kpop song article. Considering I've never heard of the song though it came out when I lived in Korea (and I even saw Apink perform!), the editor did a good job of digging out every bit of farty press K-media had to offer. However, the article doesn't have a whole lot of the type of trivia or fluff we so often see, so the editor did a good job of not making the article itself too farty (a reference to WP:FART). I have my doubts the song is actually notable despite all the sources, as most of them aren't about the actual song and I know all too well how K-media works, but...? The "perfect for spring" statement is very POV but it might have been the source that said it. One problem with all these Korean sources is it takes forever to try to read what they actually say and there's little doubt the editor didn't actually read them but instead used a crap translation from a non-RS. But hey, what can ya do? The EP article is less trimmed of fluff and lacks sources for chart placements and release history, but it's on its way, I think. I wish editors would put half this much effort into songs and albums people might actually remember in five years' time instead of on what is quite likely to ultimately be utterly forgettable. :/

While we're asking favors, if you go to my user page you'll see a list of T-ara and Kara albums I proposed to merge song articles into. One user has come along and objected to all of them (as well as some stuff by T-ara I already merged). If you've got a moment, I'd like your opinion on the proposed merges, as you're way more into girl groups than I am and an experienced editor. Shinyang-i (talk) 18:18, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. :) I think I commented on all the merger proposals. Random86 (talk) 03:06, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

I briefly looked at the Secret Garden article, and I just found the "Release and Promotion" section a bit trivial. Like do we really need "a second video teaser was released, showing the girls each holding a bouquet of flowers in a green meadow" or "In a preview of their upcoming music video of the song, Apink members can be seen dancing and singing a small part of their song"? I actually find the entire section too "PR-ed". As for the "Concept" section, I won't say it is too trivial, but I think the wording/phrasing needs to be improved. It just does not sound good to me. Just a thought. --TerryAlex (talk) 17:17, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

I agree with everything you said. I guess it's hard for me to explain to other editors why stuff like that is trivial. Random86 (talk) 03:42, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

Navbox template deletion

Hey, I see you've been doing some template merges/deletions(?). I don't feel like I want to dive into that area right now, but I just deleted every single link on Template:Chocolat, and it now has no content at all. It only had a few singles to begin with, and they've all been merged to the artist article. There are some indications the group may have disbanded, so a large slew of upcoming articles on their works necessitating a navbox in the future seems unlikely. Can you list it for deletion? Not very controversial, I don't think. :) Thanks! Shinyang-i (talk) 01:48, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

Seeing as this is uncontroversial, you can try WP:G6- or WP:T3-tagging it. Alakzi (talk) 01:53, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

Philanthropy

Sometimes, I read news about a celebrity making small donations/giving away to charity [a few thousand dollars or less each time], is this worth a mention? Or should we lump it together and summarize it somehow?--TerryAlex (talk) 15:11, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

I don't really know, but it might be better summarized with a few examples. Random86 (talk) 03:43, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

Endorsements

Please help to put back Sistar and the members' endorsements. I realise a lot of information had been removed so I'll be grateful if you can help thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MindyChua (talk • contribs) 10:01, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

@MindyChua: Lists of endorsements are not necessary so I'm not going to help put those back (I assume that's what you are referring to). Please remember to put your post at the bottom of the page next time, and sign it by adding four tildes ( ~~~~ ) at the end of your comment. Random86 (talk) 04:11, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

Well,you keep saying everything is unnecessary. The previous time about the members' section, you said it was unnecessary as well. As you can see in SNSD's page,there is the endorsements section so if snsd have it,sistar must have it too. MindyChua (talk) 17:28, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

Why do you keep asking me for help if you don't like my answers? If you think Sistar has notable endorsements, write something in prose with reliable sources and add it to their page. Random86 (talk) 05:02, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

Lee Jong Hyun age

he is 26 years old. http://kshowonline.com/kshow/3188-[engsub]-we-got-married-ep.263 at 73 minutes and 40 second marks — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.121.49.120 (talk) 18:25, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

Did you read my edit summary? He was born 15 May 1990, and is 26 years old using East Asian age reckoning. Random86 (talk) 05:10, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

List of awards and nominations received by 4Minute

	List of awards and nominations received by 4Minute
	"Stop adding the fansite awards. They are not appropriate for Wikipedia." Try to look at "List of awards and nominations received by Super Junior, Beast etc." awards from fansites were included too.... Knet Gatchi (talk) 05:35, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

@Knet Gatchi: Those awards shouldn't be on any articles. I remove them whenever I see them. Random86 (talk) 05:49, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

And here, ladies and gentlemen, we have more evidence as to why the 4minute awards article is being considered for deletion. Knet Gatchi, go read the Korea MOS or the awards MOS - the fan stuff you keep trying to add is specifically forbidden. It's not just Random86's personal opinion; Wikipedia isn't about one person's opinion. Read rules instead of looking to other kpop articles for guidance, as kpop articles are rarely in accordance with Wikipedia standards (largely because people like you continually insist on doing whatever you want and harass editors who try to clean up your messes). Shinyang-i (talk) 06:39, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

Gaon Album Chart

Let's continue this discussion lol.

If you think about it, if I'm updating it monthly, by the time Gaon releases the official half-yearly (4 months to go) or yearly album chart, you would only need to make a few edits instead of waiting until next year to create it. I don't get why you didn't do this last year when it was being updated monthly, but now you're removing it...while users like me are making life easier. -- LonelyBliue (talk) 05:40, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

Ice Cream Cake

I attempted to trim and merge those two articles. Look in my sandbox and see what else you want to do to it my sandbox. Don't think there is anything much to it.--TerryAlex (talk) 16:34, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

A merge would be easy, but I started a discussion so there wouldn't be an edit war. If you support the merge, can you join the discussion? This is how I would have merged them: User:Random86/sandbox. It's arranged slightly different. Random86 (talk) 07:03, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Cecile Corbel wiki page

Hi. I was doing some researching to add more to Cecile Corbel's page and happen to come across this radio interview of hers with a local radio station in Malaysia. Here's the link if you want to check it out: http://www.bfm.my/celtic-harp-cecile-corbel.html EnvyDC (talk) 06:25, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

I kind of gave up on her page because I couldn't find good English-language sources. Thanks for the link! I'll listen to it later. Random86 (talk) 06:39, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

No probs! I've been searching for interviews of her actually speaking in English like crazy. I found quite a number of local articles written about her to my surprise. I didn't even know she came to Malaysia then. Would've been lucky if I'd been able to attend her concert then. EnvyDC (talk) 13:17, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

do you mind doing this merge?

Hey, how's it going? I've been super busy off wiki lately, and just stopped by today. Some hardheaded editor removed the results of the AFD discussion on With: Live Tour 2015 (which was to merge it), and made me realize it never got merged. I restored the results banner, but do you mind doing the merge? Honestly, I'm too irritated with the history of that article to do it properly and would wind up destroying it. But it's gotta get done, I guess. Pretty please?  :) Shinyang-i (talk) 06:02, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

Sure, I'll do the merge. :) I've been good, but also busy off wiki. Thanks for stopping by! Random86 (talk) 06:26, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

Thanks! Hey, other related topics - there are still a lot of Girls' Generation song articles, it seems, many for minor songs. Have you thought about merging them? And the Roly-Poly issue ... dunno what to do about that. Sigh. The song probably deserves an article and there's probably enough info, but then what to do about the EP article? If the EP is merged into the song, can other aspects of the EP (of which there are few, but still....) be discussed in the song article? I just don't know... Shinyang-i (talk) 07:51, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

Shinyang-i, I haven't looked at all Girls' Generation's song/album articles, but I'm sure there are some that could be merged. TerryAlex tried to merge "Gee" one time, and...it did not go well. That's not a minor song though. I will take a look at the rest later. You might want to contribute to the proposed merge of Twinkle (Girls' Generation-TTS song). I don't think it makes sense to merge albums into songs, so even though Roly-Poly is notable, I still think it makes sense to merge it.

On another note, could I get your opinion on the notability of Park Choa? She was redirected to AOA via AfD recently, but another editor restored her page. Random86 (talk) 06:29, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

I'm looking now, trying to compare the version now to the version that was AFD'd. As far as I can see, they are nearly identical, although she has since picked up a role as an MC on We Got Married, which I don't think pushes her over the threshold for notability. As far as I know, unless the new article is drastically different from the AFD'd version, the AFD results have to be honored. This happened on the Hani article too...someone reverted that back into existence three times. Before taking any action, I'd talk to Drmies or another admin about it to see if there's a way to prevent these reversions from occurring or if there are certain warnings for doing so. I support reverting it back to a redirect - maybe an admin can make it more permanent. Shinyang-i (talk) 06:40, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

The only other difference is she's a cast member of the variety show My Little Television, whatever that is. Random86 (talk) 06:46, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

I left a message for the editor who closed the AFD about the issue in general, the reversion of pages closed as "delete and redirect" at AFD, because this one's been reverted twice and the Hani one was three times. I'm asking if there are ways to prevent this. So, we'll see what he says. Hopefully there'll be some helpful advice for dealing with these situations in general. Since Choa's only "new" activities are reality shows, she still hasn't entered the realm of individual notability...should be no problem there establishing that the article should stay deleted. Shinyang-i (talk) 07:06, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

I went ahead and redirected the page, so we'll see what happens. By the way, your latest talk page archive wasn't showing up in the box so I fixed the name. Hope you don't mind. :) Random86 (talk) 07:45, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

Oh I don't mind at all. I didn't realize it. And yeah, we'll see what happens. :) Shinyang-i (talk) 08:41, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

Please work on those Girls' Generation songs/albums articles. I know they can be further improved. I tried to do it once, and because it did not go well, so that's why I have not really attempted another. By the way, I think the "Background" section of "Catch Me If you Can" can be condensed to something like this sandbox. Wording, of course, can be improved/rearranged since I'm not sure if I made the description of Korean/Japanese release sounds too confusing, but I just don't like the idea of these articles looking like a series of PR releases. You are free to edit my sandbox anyway you want.--TerryAlex (talk) 15:43, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

I proposed a merge for two of the songs from Oh!, and will get to the rest eventually. Sorry I never got back to you on CMIYC. I've been really busy and have been mostly doing quick edits. Random86 (talk) 05:27, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

No worries, just take your time. I have been a bit busy too....That "Background" section can definitely be shortened...You know me, I can only "draft" how things should look like, but I suck when it comes to phrasing. :)--TerryAlex (talk) 05:40, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

Crayon Pop filmography

Have you considered merging the list of CP's reality shows back into a filmography section on the CP main article and mentioning the individuals' acting roles in prose? The rest of the content of the CP filmography article is the dreaded variety show bonanza. :) I'm AFDing the rest of the kpop filmographies I found, but since you are the main contributor to CP's, I thought I'd float the idea by you first to see if we just merge & redirect by consensus without an AFD. =D Shinyang-i (talk) 05:00, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

Yes, I've been meaning to do that, so I'll go ahead and do it now. I'm the main contributor and I doubt anyone will object. Random86 (talk) 06:15, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

Would you look at this?

I rewrote the lead on Shinhwa discography, something I've not done before. Will you read it over and tell me if it sounds okay? By looking at a few FL discographies, it looked like it wasn't necessary to provide a reference for a simple statement of "The album Blah Blah was released in 2005", so I didn't. Anyway, whenever you're not too busy I'd be thankful for a read-through. :) Thanks! Shinyang-i (talk) 01:44, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

The lead is well-written and informative. Good job! Random86 (talk) 06:35, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

F.T. Island or FTISLAND

F.T. Island - This article does not add any pictures. I do not understand why you removed my changes. They are not unfounded. Official website team says that it is FTISLAND, not F.T. Island. In my opinion should standardize information everywhere.

Gu86, the copyvio warning is from January, when you uploaded non-free images. Read WP:BANDNAME and WP:MOSTM for information about naming conventions. That kind of page move requires discussion because it appears to go against the MOS. Also, remember to sign your post next time. Random86 (talk) 21:08, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

Random86, where do I start discussions? (talk) 23:35, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

I wrote:

So far here was F.T. Island, but official pages of the band tell a different story. It is FTISLAND. I want standardize information everywhere. Is it possible? I know that this community has its own rules and regulations:

- "Do not replicate stylized typography in logos and album art, though a redirect may be appropriate (for example, KoЯn redirects to Korn)." - in this case does not apply to logos and album art. This is name this band. logo is different.

- "Follow standard English text formatting and capitalization rules, even if the trademark owner considers nonstandard formatting "official", as long as this is a style already in widespread use, rather than inventing a new one." - i understand this, but FTISLAND is common, is an international name.

In Wikipedia is new word, but this style already in widespread use on many websites on the Internet. Official website team says that it is FTISLAND, not F.T. Island. In my opinion should standardize information everywhere.

In order not to conflict with the name of the FTISLAND... I will find all articles on wikipedia of wrongly adopted the name and I will try to re-structure... Of course, if the decision will be positive to change to FTISLAND and the possibility of creating redirects.

I am waiting for a response.

(talk) 00:09, 15 April 2015

@Gu86: If you want the name changed to "FTISLAND", you must follow the steps at WP:RM#CM. The Manual of Style discourages all caps. That's why we have Big Bang instead of BIGBANG (which is used officially). Besides, "F.T. Island" and "FT Island" are in use by reliable sources, as well as "FTISLAND". Random86 (talk) 05:59, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

Hi, on a sidenote: while I understand the naming conventon for the band page, Memory in FTISLAND is actually the title of an album, which is not spelled as F.T. Island on the album cover. [1] I thought names of artworks should be cited as is, even if they are misspelled, if that's their original title, it should be referenced as such. We don't change wrong spellings of movie titles, either, do we? See Who Framed Roger Rabbit where a question mark is missing grammatically or Law Abiding Citizen, which badly needs a hyphen, or Two Weeks Notice which needs one too. :) The list could go on forever. How is Memory in FTISLAND different, when there are clearly no dots in the title? Teemeah ^{편지 (letter)} 08:49, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

Hey Teemeah, I get what you're saying. Perhaps the page could be moved to Memory in FTIsland? I think WP:ALLCAPS makes it pretty clear that all caps is not allowed, and the album cover actually says MEMORY IN FTISLAND. Random86 (talk) 01:20, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

That could be a nice compromise. --Teemeah ^{편지 (letter)} 09:02, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

Got7's member section

a chart keeps getting added in on the got7 page's member section against the consensus of the page editors and general standards for such sections. I have tried to open discussion in the pages talk but am getting no response...I'm not sure if I should put in a request to lock the page or simply wait them out.Peachywink (talk) 04:27, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

Stop deleting stuffs

By the way can you stop deleting stuffs. Thank you — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fx Only One (talk • contribs) 19:55, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

Fx Only One: You should probably read Wikipedia:Verifiability and WP:KO/RS. If you add unsourced information, it can be deleted. Also, please remember to sign your post, and put new posts at the bottom of the page. Random86 (talk) 04:40, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

Message from now-blocked user

I really don't care about what you think you're doing. But the previous format was in depth and provides information to users from all over. I read that hangul, and so do a bunch other people. Some don't have time or care to read a whole article on one artist or whatever. They just want a quick overview of groups, and that format is perfect as is. It tells you quick stuff, 긑 . oh and more, summer is coming right? I will make it a project to revert every article that was like that, to the grid version. and I will do it twice a day, for as many days as necessary, until you realize, we don't want, or need your help, go get a real job.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Kazandre (talk • contribs) 07:03, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

Stop edit warring? Removal agreed by concensus? Who was part of the concensus? You, yourself and your self-righteousness? Guess what would happen if the fact that some douche was deleting kpop info as they feel like because they feel like, you will have to move on, and get a life. No one, needs, nor want your help. I'm <this> close to wishing you illfate. Get off your high horses. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kazandre (talk • contribs) 07:23, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

Wishing me ill fate? Interesting threat. Random86 (talk) 20:14, 2 May 2015 (UTC)

What previous version?

you put a prod on a sourced article which has an article on several interwikis with the comment "This article was deleted earlier this year because notability could not be established. This version is not showing notability any better than the previous version." How do you know what the previous version looked like? Did you delete it? If so how did you delete it and why? In ictu oculi (talk) 07:40, 30 April 2015 (UTC)

@In ictu oculi: I'm not an admin; I can't delete anything. I know what the previous version looked like because I edited it and remember what was on it. It was deleted because the group was deemed non-notable, even though it had sources. Random86 (talk) 07:43, 30 April 2015 (UTC)

By whom? An article with sources and interwiki cannot be deleted except by AfD. In ictu oculi (talk) 07:46, 30 April 2015 (UTC)

I don't remember who deleted it, but I think it was through PROD. An admin could probably tell you. Random86 (talk) 07:50, 30 April 2015 (UTC)

Sure looking at what happened next I have a good idea and I'm sure it wasn't you, thanks. In ictu oculi (talk) 07:59, 30 April 2015 (UTC)

Yes, looking at the song's history, it was probably SNUGGUMS. Random86 (talk) 08:02, 30 April 2015 (UTC)

TVXQ

MugenDarkness here, regarding about the page TVXQ, i edit about the sales of record sold to date. I think you should edit it from 10 million to 14/15 millions. It was stated by Oricon and Gaon Chart during early 2012/2013 that TVXQ sales that period is about 12 millions already. Plus,TVXQ sold more than 1 million album in Japan alone during 2013 and another 1 million in Japan (2014) and around 400 hundreds thousand in Korea(2014) thus make it already more than 14 millions/around 15millions. I checked Wiki around october last year and it stated more than 14million sold to date. I checked it again in march this year and it come out 10 millions suddenly lol. Did wiki not update or just incorrect about the current situation? or what...by the way, the page said that TVXQ is one of the best selling Kpop act,NO! TVXQ is THE BEST SELLING KPOP ACT.. its a well known FACT.so you better solves this matter soon..another method to solves is calculate it yourselves. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MugenDarkness (talk • contribs)

@MugenDarkness: Like TerryAlex told you, you cannot change the number without adding a citation from a reliable source. If you continue to edit war and add unsourced information, you risk being blocked indefinitely. Random86 (talk) 20:10, 2 May 2015 (UTC)

i dont know what you mean by unsourced info,its definitely stated by gaon oricon itself in early 2012 as i stated above. of course it doesnt update the sales everytime (lol i mean why they need to bother much about this things) . other groups got update and why not TVXQ ?

for example , the total amount of BigBang sales since debut that was stated by oricon and gaon back in 2012 is around 2,300,000 i guess , and if you checked the page now its stated they sold about 2,700,000. this mean it get update, so is this mean that its not true or incurrate ? of course not. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 113.210.130.171 (talk) 13:27, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

sockpuppet investigation

so I found this page today Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Random86 which involves me since I'm listed as one of the sockpuppets and wanted to know how seriously I should take this. Since you are a more experienced editor than me I thought you might have come across this before?Peachywink (talk) 16:04, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

This is ridiculous. Random86, do you want to report that user to the admin? --TerryAlex (talk) 16:06, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict) That SPI is just plain ridiculous. Don't take it seriously. I'm not surprised someone would do that considering all the attack websites. Random86 (talk) 16:12, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

okay thanks I read up on replying to sockpuppet investigations and it pretty much said if you are not a sock puppet don't worry about it, since it only looks for ip abuse.Peachywink (talk) 16:25, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

Awards Nominations

What do you think would be the most effective way to find news articles that mention about the full award nominations list? I read through news articles that only mentioned briefly about the winners. It's hard to go back in time to dig up that info. I looked at some of the award music sites themselves and seems like they only have the winners' list (and not the full list) for the previous years. :( :p --TerryAlex (talk) 20:53, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

This is just about the only thing I've hit a brick wall on, for references. I wonder if the Korean media even publishes nominations? I searched really hard for Uee and couldn't find RS for all her nominations. Random86 (talk) 01:03, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

I guess you will only stumble upon one like this once every 10 years http://koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/culture/2010/03/135_62072.html. This makes me sad.--TerryAlex (talk) 22:06, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

Question

Sorry, why did you do this [2]? Why didn't you just look at the official site? Please, try to be more constructive and less confrontational. (As a person who actually wants Wikipedia articles to be better, I'm quite shocked by your confrontational approach.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 23:25, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

Position warring is a big problem in K-pop articles, so positions have to be sourced. (And, most of the time, positions are not listed on the official website.) Verifiability is one of Wikipedia's core policies, after all. :) Random86 (talk) 02:48, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

Dates of birth are utterly irrelevant, MC. Drmies (talk) 03:58, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

N (South Korean singer)

Okay so I see that it was previously deleted (I wasn't about to check all that given the name N), I have also given tons of other deletions for the article creator-you might want to check those too! Wgolf (talk) 20:00, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

@Wgolf: I've checked them out, and see that one has been dePRODed already, and Soompi isn't exactly a reliable source. Random86 (talk) 07:51, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

removal of content more than 5 times

Its getting annoying. You removed Sistar content again. When are you going to stop that? That's not kind. Removing and removing. Don't make me use actions on you. MindyChua (talk) 09:43, 17 May 2015 (UTC) You have repeatedly removed ALL MY edits on sistar. That is totally unacceptable — Preceding unsigned comment added by MindyChua (talk • contribs) 09:47, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

That's because you keep doing it wrong. You can't add an award to the infobox that is not on the list. The infobox is a summary of the list. (If you add the award to the list, make sure you include a source.) Also, you are still not using talk pages correctly. Random86 (talk) 15:30, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

REMOVAL OF EDITS LAST CHANCE

STOP REMOVING PEOPLE EDITS. THIS IS GOING TO BE LAST CHANCE. YOU REMOVED WHAT I WROTE ON YOUR "TALK" PAGE WITHOUT GIVING ME ANY REASONS WHY DID YOU REMOVED THE EDITS ON SISTAR AWARDS. THEY GOT AN AWARD AT THE ASIA MODEL AWARD AND THIS IS THE LINK : http://www.allkpop.com/article/2015/04/boyfriend-sistar-hong-jong-hyun-siwan-and-more-win-awards-at-the-asia-model-awards STOP your edits war if not you will be reported. MindyChua (talk) 03:27, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

MindyChua, that's not true. You keep posting in the wrong place, and I have to keep moving your posts to the bottom of the page. You still aren't understanding what you are doing wrong. You are only adding the award to the infobox, not the main part of the page. Awards that are not listed on the page can't be put into the infobox (like I said in my edit summary when I undid your edits). Also, you can't just post a link to a source in the edit summary or on my talk page. You have to add it to the page, properly formatted as a reference. This is easy using the refToolbar (See Help:Referencing for beginners.) It would also be better if the source wasn't Allkpop (See WP:KO/RS). Random86 (talk) 04:07, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

Then why did you changed 39 awards to 38 awards? I did a mistake but you don't have to change the 39 to 38. And you can reply here instead of erasing people's content as people will think you are just doing something deliberately. MindyChua (talk) 04:37, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

And WHY DID U FREAKING REMOVED IT AGAIN?! You could have just list the award down on the main page instead of just removing it. MindyChua (talk) 04:40, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

The number is supposed to reflect the number of awards on the list. If the award isn't listed, it can't be counted. I could list the award myself, but I don't like to use Allkpop and I don't want to search for an alternate source right now. Random86 (talk) 05:54, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

Sixteen (TV Show)

I saw that you added a ref improve tag to the article. For which areas would you suggest better references? I'm happy to look for some. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Katzenlibrary (talk • contribs) 17:12, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

Katzenlibrary: I should have been more specific, but I wasn't sure which tag(s) to use. The lead section doesn't have any references, and this statement in particular needs one: "Unlike other music competition shows, Sixteen contestants will be assessed for not only their singing and dancing abilities but also their charisma and personality".

Another issue is notability. The show is probably notable, but the article lacks references to third-party reliable sources. See WP:KO/RS for what is considered reliable. I just did a quick search and saw lots of sources that could be used. This one could be used for the lead section actually. If you have trouble finding more references I can probably add some later. I use custom search engines that make it easier to find things. :) Random86 (talk) 23:47, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

Random86 Much of the information I included comes directly from the show itself rather than an outside source, especially in the episode summaries. I can see your point though! Thanks for the KoreaHerald link. I'll use that and look around for other sources for the information like you suggested. I can guarantee that all the information is accurate, but the need for sources is understandable, since they give the page legitimacy. I'll get the sources taken care of, so please leave the info on the page for now (if you were thinking of deleting any of it). Thanks! Katzenlibrary (talk) 17:32, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

Odd (Shinee album)

Why do you keep on removing the information about iTunes? This is allowed, other Wikipedia pages publish information about iTunes such as:

• Say Something (A Great Big World song): The cover version of the song surpassed Aguilera and A Great Big World's version on iTunes, climbing to number 1 the morning after they sang it onstage.
• The Heist (album): The album reached number one on iTunes within hours of being released on October 9, 2012 with no mainstream promotion or support.
• Let's Get Ready to Rhumble: The song climbed to number 1 on the iTunes UK Chart within days.
• Harrison Craig: His debut album titled More Than a Dream was released on 25 June 2013 and reached number 1 on the iTunes chart.

• 'Odd (Shinee album) says:' Upon release the album managed to top the Top 100, Kpop and Pop iTunes album charts in Japan, Hong Kong, Thailand, Taiwan, Singapore, Indonesia, Malaysia, Philippines, Sri Lanka and India.

So I think it should not be removed as it is not listing the charts down in a table like this:

Chart	Peak position
Ireland (IRMA)	1
UK Singles (Official Charts Company)	1

(101.160.148.243 (talk) 06:43, 23 May 2015 (UTC))

I know other other articles do it, but I still think it is against the guidelines. WP:CHART states that "Charts which rank material from a single vendor or network are generally unsuitable for inclusion in articles...They may occasionally be mentioned in article prose if special circumstances warrant it." Odd's ranking on iTunes is not a special circumstance. The album will rank on Gaon (and possibly Billboard) charts, and those can be mentioned when it does. Random86 (talk) 06:58, 23 May 2015 (UTC)

For now I believe they should be kept and plus most of those countries mentioned do not actually have any music album charts that are known.(101.160.148.243 (talk) 07:09, 23 May 2015 (UTC))

Absolutely should not be kept: WP:SINGLEVENDOR violation. —Kww(talk) 17:05, 23 May 2015 (UTC)

If that's the case then how do you explain all the other Wikipedia pages that talk about iTunes? (124.176.151.178 (talk) 04:06, 24 May 2015 (UTC))

There are lots of articles that do not conform to certain policies/guidelines and need improvement. Random86 (talk) 04:20, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

Then why don't you fix those ones and then fix this one. (124.176.151.178 (talk) 04:25, 24 May 2015 (UTC))

(talk page stalker), it's better to wait until Gaon chart comes out. That is a legit chart.--TerryAlex (talk) 04:42, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

sistar

Why do you keep linking sistar information? I mean "2013-present" and "push push shady girl and how dare you". I don't want to say this, but Sistar's information is really little. I don't get why people are constantly editing the page(in a horrible way) and the page has really few information. Please kindly stop shortening the page. Thank you MindyChua (talk) 07:24, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

Sometimes improvements make pages shorter. The last history section is "2013–present" because sections shouldn't be only a few sentences long. Combining short sections is a good thing. My edits were not "horrible"; I was trying to make some improvements so the cleanup tags could be removed. If all you are going to do is complain, don't post here again because I'm tired of hearing it. I suggest using a computer if you want to make positive contributions to the article. You always use the mobile website and it's hard to edit that way. Random86 (talk) 07:36, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

@random86, its A dance practice not an. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MindyChua (talk • contribs) 04:18, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

References for Videography

Hey R86, what sources can we use to reference the music video? Can it be YT direct links? Or does it have to be from a news source? Thanks :) --TerryAlex (talk) 15:16, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

Secondary sources are probably better. I assume you are thinking of Girls' Generation videography? That page needs an overhaul, and since the music videos are also on the discography page it is partially redundant. I think the MVs should be taken off the discography page and the videography page formatted more like Madonna videography and Justin Timberlake videography (featured lists). I'll probably attempt this soon. Random86 (talk) 03:53, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

Finding references for MV in news sources will be a tough thing though. Do you think Mwave and Melon will work buddy? They do have all the music videos. You know I always appreciate all your help. Thanks always :)--TerryAlex (talk) 06:53, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

What are the references for? Random86 (talk) 05:50, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

I'm thinking that the "Ref" column has to be fully referenced, right? I created this draft. Note that it's incomplete as I only want to see how we are gonna do this. Should we combine MV and Dance version together? I know practice room videos should be taken out.--TerryAlex (talk) 18:41, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

I'm thinking of revamping a couple of articles. Will you help trim and copy-edit like last time? Thank you :)--TerryAlex (talk) 03:20, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Sure. :) Random86 (talk) 05:40, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Sandbox 1 & Sandbox 2. Trying to bring out their persona and career as much as possible. Same deal as before. Please help me to trim/rephrase/fix anything you think is appropriate. Thanks so much buddy. (Take your time, of course)--TerryAlex (talk) 03:03, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Apparently, Drmies trimmed some of the stuff for Yoona. Do you think they were excessive and trivial? Because I thought those things are absolutely relevant regarding her career. If you look at Justin Timberlake article, there is a short paragraph on Nsync, so I don't see how a couple of sentences on GG is considered excessive, and she is a CF queen, how is that promotional? I work hard on trying to make those articles complete, and because we worked together on that, so let me know what you think. I always trust your judgment.--TerryAlex (talk) 23:17, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

• I don't know where to draw the line for some of this. Some of it might be unnecessary trivia, like the fact that she gives letters to the staff and is the ideal type of celebrities. I would at least add back "Yoona is regarded as a 'television commercial queen' among the South Korean public, and has been a spokesperson for many brands" because that section needs something at the beginning to give context. Not sure about the ambassador/charity work, but it was a little overly detailed.
• I've noticed cameo appearances and music video appearances on featured lists, such as Priyanka Chopra filmography, so I don't totally understand the "not a resume" statement. Do you know anything about the musical cameo?
• I thought "Prior to debuting, Yoona was introduced to the public through various appearances in music videos and commercials; she first appeared in TVXQ's "Magic Castle" music video in 2005" was relevant since that is how her career started, but I don't know if the number of auditions is important.
• I'll have to think more about the other things that were removed. I understand some of it. For example "She has since become known for taking the center position on stage" maybe isn't necessary since the previous sentence says she is the center. The part about GG in the beginning of "2008–present" didn't have the best flow. I would probably just add something like "The group gained significant popularity with the release of their hit single 'Gee' in 2009." to the early life section. Random86 (talk) 07:08, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

It's always good to have you see it from a non-fan's point of view. I thought the fact that she is a "television commercial queen" and "was first introduced through music videos..." need to be added back at least. About charities work, some celebrities have a whole "Philanthropy" section, why can't we briefly talk about it here? The fact that she donated 100 million won is notable, isn't it? And a couple of sentences on GG was meant to highlight her accomplishment being a part of the group, so I just can't see why it is excessive (though some rewording might be needed). You know what I mean?

I did not care about it as much before, but I have started wondering about whether we should have the MV appearances or not too. The musical was not an "actual release" though, I think it's one of those shows that was shown at those SM stores, though I might be wrong. --TerryAlex (talk) 10:22, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

I've read some Wikipedia biographies before, like Taylor Swift, for example, and thought some stuff was a bit overly detailed and excessive. But when you read the article as a whole, we get a complete picture about her career and life. So that is the kind of mindset I have when putting these things together. We don't have the kind of information to write a 16-page article obviously, but I hope to put together some condense, yet complete, articles. Nowhere do I think YA's was anywhere near perfect, but I thought it was somewhat decent. Sometimes, you can't just say this is excessive and take it out, then the part that comes after that would become incomplete. Isn't biography about a complete picture about someone's life? If she has done charity work, for example, shouldn't we at least mention it? I mean, you know I'm not the kind of unreasonable editors, but I don't like, in my opinion, how her article has become incomplete now. (Feel like I can talk freely to you, I think you understand what my perspective on things is.) :)--TerryAlex (talk) 16:42, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

Actually I've always wondered about that "CF queen" label. I never heard her referred to like that when I was in Korea, and she wasn't really in that many CFs, not high visibility at all. Compared to someone like Song Joong-ki, 2PM, Kim Soo-hyeon, Lee Seung-gi (who was literally everywhere), or for females, Kim Tae-hee, even Hyuna were all much more omnipresent than her. I am just wondering who is calling her a CF queen. I mean this to be helpful, not insulting; I'm not asking you this to make you prove it to me, but to help you evaluate the situation objectively. Also, regarding philanthropy, is she known for being a frequent donor or was one of her donations especially unusual or controversial or noteworthy? Some celebs are actually known for being donors, like Kim Dong-wan or that one young actress whose name I forgot who donated anonymously for years before being outed. Or some specific donations, such as JYJ's donation to the Japan tsunami in excess of that donated by the entirety of SM Entertainment, are notable. If it's just a one-time thing, it might not be necessary to put it in, because nearly all Korean celebs donate. I think because of the way kpop stuff often gets so bloated and promotional, Drmies is afraid of setting a precedence for having too many details in articles, and thus he sometimes trims excessively. Many kpop editors seem to feel that if a piece of info is in one article, it MUST be allowed in all others, regardless of context; also . Like that one editor who always complains on R86's talk page about Sistar articles. She even says, straight up, "if it's in GG's article, it MUST go in Sistar's". I think you can use your own judgement. :) Shinyang-i (talk) 23:35, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

There are news articles back in 2012 that talked about her being a "CF queen". Whether she is still one or not is irrelevant. The fact is she has had many endorsements and that should be mentioned. Regarding philanthropy, I find the fact that she has done charity work since young age is notable. She was also recently honored at the Honor Society for donating more than 100 million won, shouldn't that also worth a mention? The "personality" paragraph can go, but for everything else, there is ought to be something that can be added back. You know I never intend to use other articles as a comparison, but I do read some GA status articles to get a feel of how a biography should be like. If you look at "Beyonce" article for example, you will see that she has a section on "Destiny's Child" and this "In July 2002, Beyoncé continued her acting career playing Foxxy Cleopatra alongside Mike Myers in the comedy film, Austin Powers in Goldmember, which spent its first weekend atop the US box office and grossed $73 million". So for YA, I don't see how a couple of sentences on GG, how the drama YAMD got high ratings and how she was already well-known even though GG was not at the time are excessive. I'm not using this as a comparison, but the idea I'm trying to say is you have to fit the pieces together to make a complete biography. And no, I don't think everything I do is right, that is why I always seek Random86 for his/her opinion, though I know he/she gets really annoyed with me by now. :p --TerryAlex (talk) 03:45, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

I'm sorry, you seem upset at what I said. I didn't mean anything negative. I only mentioned the CF Queen thing (I don't live in Korea now; I did in 2012 and was just sharing my perceptions that she didn't seem exceptionally pervasive in advertising and wondered about her being called that) and the charity thing. I really have no opinion on the other issues nor did I say anything you wrote was excessive. I was trying to be helpful and maybe give insight on why Drmies might have trimmed things, not say you were right or wrong. I'm sorry to have apparently have worded my thoughts so badly. I'll butt out now. Shinyang-i (talk) 05:02, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

No, I'm not mad, sometimes words can be just a bit "misleading". Just trying to get my point across. :)--TerryAlex (talk) 05:06, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

@TerryAlex: Philanthropy sections are common, so charity work can be mentioned. Perhaps the tone was too non-neutral, and that's why Drmies thought it was promotional? It may have been overly detailed as well. Donating 100 million won certainly sounds notable. I also know what you mean about highlighting her accomplishments as part of GG. The music video appearances were mostly unsourced, but it seems common to include them in filmographies like I said before.

The "personality" paragraph can go, but for everything else, there is ought to be something that can be added back. I agree with this, and I am planning on adding some things back, some re-worded. Your work on the article made it way better than it was before, so hopefully it can become even better because of this. By the way, I found a 2011 article saying she earned 300,000 won per music video as a trainee, and 900 million won per drama episode and 300 million won per solo CF after debuting. (But, I don't understand the 50 billion in 2011 figure.)

I know he/she gets really annoyed with me by now. :p Nope, I'm not annoyed at all. I've been very busy IRL the last few days. For the record, I'm a "she". :)

@Shinyang-i: IU, Jun Ji-hyun, Suzy, Lee Hyori, Han Hyo-joo and more were also called CF queens according to my quick search. It's a term the media uses and it just means they had a lot of CFs or earned a lot of money per CF. Yoona's Wiki article says "In 2012, she appeared in at least 20 commercials and was ranked fifth among celebrities with the most commercial appearances". Random86 (talk) 07:27, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

Ah, see that makes more sense to me, it being a term used for anyone who, at that moment, is doing well in CFs. I thought it was being used as a term exclusive to Yoona, which made me question the source, since it didn't jive with reality. I'll just say that living in Korea + training in understanding media play does not produce viewpoints popular with kpop fans or those Koreans who are desperately invested in promoting Korea to the world, and is another reason I don't really want to touch these articles anymore. It's my poor judgement for thinking anyone would give a shit about what I think or know, as I should know better by now. Shinyang-i (talk) 16:03, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

Shinyang-i, don't get so easily offended all the time. Just chill, buddy. Anyways, since you have lived in Korea, I just assumed that you know that the term that has been used many times by the media. I did not mean YA was/is the only "queen". I know Kpop can be a bit promotional all the time. But really, she is a South Korean, and she has had many endorsements in her native country. It is a part of her "commercial success". I'm against a list of endorsements, but I don't see anything wrong with having a short paragraph highlighting that part of her "achievements". Many celebrities have been coined by that term, Yoona is/was one among them, but not all celebrities got that either. For example, you don't hear other GG members being coined by the same term.--TerryAlex (talk) 18:09, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

You're one of the most levelheaded kpop fans I've met, so I was just surprised to see you appear to get upset at what I thought were pretty innocent comments, including things I didn't even mention (personality, GG role, etc). I guess, also, that I am hyper-sensitive when it comes to possible over-glorifying of kpop, especially GG; I was once fired from a job in Korea because, when asked, I told my boss that "no" GG are not as famous in the USA as Madonna. That's how f'd up the media are when it comes to GG - many Korean adults believe that crap. (Oddly, the kids are generally much more savvy at seeing through nationalistic exaggeration.) So just ignore me; as I said earlier, I wasn't trying to get you to prove things to me, just to think about them in a larger context. I will refrain from any more GG-related comments. Shinyang-i (talk) 18:33, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

Shinyang-i, didn't I already clarify that I was not upset? You cannot expect other people to have the same opinion as you all the time though :). Whether you like GG as a group or not is a personal preference, I have nothing against that and I also respect that, I treat it as we just don't have the same interest. :) --TerryAlex (talk) 19:02, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

Thank you, Random86, for understanding my point of view. Regarding "personality", my original intention when I put it in there was because I thought personality (especially on variety shows, etc) does plays an important role within the Kpop world. It also partly explains someone's image in the public eye. So that was why I had it there, but if it's unnecessary, I can let it go :). For everything else, I trust that you can help me put back all the necessary things (I think the 50 billion won figure takes into account GG as a whole group, but perhaps we can mention her individual fee per drama/solo CF as you have mentioned). Thanks always. :)--TerryAlex (talk) 16:53, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

Tiffany (South Korean singer) vs Tiffany (American singer)

Hi, I'm thinking of moving Tiffany (South Korean singer) → Tiffany Hwang, and Tiffany (American singer) → Tiffany Darwish to avoid misconception. Tiffany Hwang was born in the United States, so she's undeniably American (however people thought she is Korean because she is based in South Korea), meanwhile, Tiffany Darwish is also American, which is quite confusing. What do you think? Simon (talk) 08:34, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

Simon: Since we don't even know if Tiffany (South Korean singer) is a South Korean citizen, she probably shouldn't be called "South Korean singer". The only problem is, Tiffany's name has never been Tiffany Hwang so I don't know if that is a good title either. Random86 (talk) 04:00, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

I don't know why Tiffany the American singer goes by her first name, but if we can move her article to her full name, then Tiffany's can be changed to "Tiffany (singer)"? Just a thought.--TerryAlex (talk) 20:40, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) - The American Singer (Tiffany Darwish) can get the go-ahead with the re-naming in my personal opinion. But the South Korean singer, Stephanie Hwang, is a bit more tricky to decide whether or not she can be named to Tiffany Hwang. I personally don't think that Tiffany (singer) is appropriate for this Tiffany in this case, just because there might be other Tiffany's from the US that sing (like Tiffany Foxx for example). I don't know if there are any other Tiffany's from OTHER countries which might also be known by their stage name of simply, Tiffany. In Stephanie's case (Tiffany from GG), you might want to consult a few admins/users for advise on what to do as I can't decide myself on what she should be named as. Tibbydibby (talk) 21:38, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

And so it goes on...

Hello. Long time, no see. Regarding the recent post on my talk page, if you'd like to continue the discussion with that editor, I'd be happy to steer them your way. Since they accused me of "deleting" stuff through merging and not doing a lick of research, I don't think I can say any more than I already have. It's never-ending discussions of that sort that I have endeavored to escape by mostly leaving Wikipedia. So if the editor responds, can I send them your way? Shinyang-i (talk) 07:15, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

@Shinyang-i: Sure, send them here if you think it would help. You said it all in your reply though. By the way, I saw the peer review for Shinhwa discography. Are you still planning on trying for featured list? Random86 (talk) 07:23, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

I dunno, I feel kind of stuck with the process, unsure what to do next. I'm scared to start the FL review process, although after the amount of serious problems with the Girls' Generation discog when it passed, I shouldn't be. I feel like there's some other step I should do beforehand, but don't know what it would be. Do you have any ideas? Shinyang-i (talk) 07:34, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

Well, the worst is it will not pass the process, so I think you should give it a try. Anyways, for GG discog, I think the majority of dead links have been replaced, but I noticed that there are still two dead links (Gee and Genie MV), if you can find the replacement for them, please do. Also, Shinyang-i, do you know if we can find good references for (award) nominations? It seems to me and R86 that Korean news never reports on them. Thanks.--TerryAlex (talk) 14:43, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

I realize the dead links on the GG discog came about at a later time; that wasn't the issue. The biggest problem was that a lot of sales claims had no actual references, just links to the front page of Oricon or something like that, and it was that way at the time it passed the FL review. There were also problems with the first few releases, claiming they charted on Gaon, which they did not; they charted on RIAK. I have zero interest in GG so it's unlikely I will break my neck finding sources for them (no offense); my attention to the article came because it was the only available model for a kpop FL discog, and so I studied that version of the article. :/ As for award nominations, 'fraid not. Most kpop award info used on Wikipedia comes from primary sources, which is the problem. I gave up on those articles, even Shinhwa's. But if you're weeding out those articles' contents, then good luck - I mean that sincerely. I'll definitely drop you any info I do run across. Shinyang-i (talk) 19:53, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

It's good that you are now deciding to improve on Shinhwa's articles. Keep up the good work.--TerryAlex (talk) 20:34, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

@Random86 and TerryAlex: Well guys, I took the plunge and made the nomination. I know it's stupid to be nervous, but I am, ha ha. BTW, I didn't mean to sound harsh when I said I don't care about GG. Regarding Shinhwa articles, it's tiring; it takes so much time to find even tiny bits of info because of the time lag. I lose my mojo real quick. Shinyang-i (talk) 22:55, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

I went ahead and made some changes based on other featured lists, WP:DISCOGSTYLE and MOS:ACCESS. Good luck! Random86 (talk) 05:28, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

Thank you very, very much! Those are exactly the kinds of things I was worried about; I don't know much about "correct" table syntax so I really appreciate your changes! Shinyang-i (talk) 08:18, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

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