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Demerliac requests

Hi Rama, one short request if I may, and one more tedious one.

• French gun-vessel Torride (1797) - this is the simple one
• French brig Suffisante (1793) - in addition to Suffisante herself, the article mentions a number of French privateers and I was wondering if Demerliac has anything on some of them.

Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 03:12, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

Hello,

I am a bit overwhelmed by mundane considerations these days, so I might not be able to answer before a few days. Do poke me if your question seems to have slipped from my mind by then. Cheers! Rama (talk) 10:11, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

Not a problem; I fully understand. Every now and then I have to spend some time on what I do for a salary. Cheers. Acad Ronin (talk) 17:32, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

Hello,

I am replying here rather than editing the articles because there seems to be some reflexion to be done on Sally.

We actually have two Torride: one is a gun-vessel ("cannonière") Torride (1795-1797, no 927 p. 137); the other is our ex-Sally, but she is classified as a cutter (ketsch-rigged) (no811, p.123). She was catpured at Carfou at you suspected, but her nationality remains a mystery. She sustained 11 wounded in her captured by HMS Goliath. Her crew numbered 44 men in1798 and 30 on 18 March 1799. She was armed with 6 guns, which in May 1798 amounted to 2 18-pounders and 4 1-pounder swivel guns. She is said to have remained in the Royal Navy as a ketch (I'd suspect actually a brig given the favoured rigging in the RN) until 1802.

Now on to Suffisante... Rama (talk) 09:12, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

Hi Rama, thanks for looking into Torride. Everything you have so far is consistent with what I got from Winfield and Roberts. I look forward to seeing, in due course, what you have on Suffisante. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 01:02, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

I have added references to the various ships directly on the article pertaining to Suffisante. Most are relatively minor ships, except maybe Salamandre (a naval ship). Cheers! Rama (talk) 08:36, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

Many thanks. Most of the privateers are minor ships, but they could be of interest to someone doing genealogical or historical research. I have added back in (supplemented) the correct name with the name the English captors gave to some of the vessels, for instance Buonapartie to Bonaparte, to help someone who may be starting from some other old record where it is misspelled. Also, every now and then, as you know, we can make an unexpected connection. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 15:17, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

DYK for French brig Renard (1810)

Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:02, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

An interesting puzzle

Hi Rama, I am looking into combining the articles Albemarle (1776) and HMS Albemarle (1779). However, there are many puzzles. The article on Albemarle gives a launch year of 1776, but i have no idea what the source is. I can't find it. Also, the article refers to her as a French vessel, captured by HMS Albion in 1779. I can't find anything to confirm that. There are no other Albemarles in Lloyd's Register until 1791, when the data matches that for Hackman's book on the East India Company, except that he has Albemarle being sold in 1780. Then, with respect to HMS Albemarle, apparently she was the Menager that a squadron under Henry Hotham captured in 1779, together with three other French transports from Bordeaux. I can't confirm that, but I did find a London Gazette letter that mentions that on 22-23 September 1779, vessels belonging to Admiral Hyde Parker's squadron in Barbados had captured her, together with six other transports, including the three attributed to Hotham's squadron. I can find no other English sources on this. I would have thought that the capture of seven French transports in convoy would have merited some more coverage, but so far I have found nothing. I am hoping the French records might have something on this, including captors, circumstances, and the like. The Royal Navy sold HMS Albemarle in 1784. I hope you find this little puzzle intriguing. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 03:57, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

I should have the relevant volume of Demerliac handy sometime next week, and meanwhile I'll be skimming through the other sources to see whether we have something. Incidentally, was there not a portrait of Nelson depicted in front of all the ships he commanded? This might provide us with a portrait of Albemarle, could it not?

Cheers! Rama (talk) 20:28, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

Unfortunately, I have not been able to find a copy of the portrait on line via Google Images search. Do you have any idea where else I might try? Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 02:36, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

Me neither, I wonder where I can have seen this painting. I'll let you know if I even find a clue. Cheers! Rama (talk) 15:22, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

Jacob Appelbaum is "an atheist of Jewish background" vs "a bisexual Jewish atheist"

I... don't understand what your objection to my revision is? What do you mean by just "WTF?"? Could you perhaps explain? 73.189.94.25 (talk) 11:12, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

Your wording is unfortunate: it conflates completely unrelated notions ("bisexual" and "Jewish"), and implicitly takes the view that "Jewish" is something unrelated to religion, which is, at best, not the consensus. Rama (talk) 13:58, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

(Same person as above) For the first bit -- would commas seperating them help? "... is a bisexual, Jewish, atheist."? Or something? For the second bit, I actually implicitely took the view that "atheist" is something unrelated to religion. Which, like, it's a theological position, isn't it? What does that have anything to do with religion? I know that there is an entire Jewish Atheist article, which would seem to imply that they are not completely mutually exclusive. And if you hold that they are mutually exclusive (although I'd disagree strongly with this), then I'd say he should be identified as Jewish at least as much as atheist -- if you look on his recent twitter feed you can see him talking about lighting a yertzheit candle ans feeling really sad that he couldn't put a rock on his father's grave, both distinctively Jewish customs. If we hold that "atheist" implies "not Jewish", it would be outright lying to say that Jacob Appelbaum is not a practicing Jew. EDIT: Also, is this like a formal consensus? If so, where/of who? 210.142.98.154 (talk) 01:26, 25 December 2015 (UTC)

Um.. it's been a while. I don't know wikiettiquette, so I apologize if this is being rude, but at least for now I'm going to put in the version rephrased to deal with your objection ("... is a bisexual, Jewish, atheist."), that I do think that is much closer to what to source says? 126.94.242.46 (talk) 13:23, 2 January 2016 (UTC)

Merry Christmas and a Prosperous 2016!

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Roux Family

Glad I could help. I haven't seen that particular image before, but I will keep my eyes peeled. I added all the Roux images from The Mariners' Museum, but you could check with the Peabody Essex Museum as I believe they have a number of Roux images as well. It does look very similar to images by the family. Neochichiri11 (talk) 03:15, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

Red Vertical Lizard (camouflage)

Hi, I see you've found a stub of a camouflage article here that had escaped notice and template, not to mention citations and CSD/AfD. If we are to keep it, it needs to be referenced. I confess I never heard of it, so since you have, maybe you'd do the honours with the refs? If you can't find any, we ought to delete it now. How do we know it's not a hoax? (for example). All the best, Chiswick Chap (talk) 17:27, 25 March 2016 (UTC)

Actually, I've had a quick search, and there are no reliable sources on the Web, unless someone knows how to search a bit more deeply, perhaps via military libraries. I've therefore redirected it to Lizard (camouflage), which is on our template. That article says nothing about the variants of the pattern and how they evolved, and it's very poorly uncited: so anything you can contribute there would be very welcome. Basically it's full of flags and WP:OR, but it's a major pattern and obviously notable in its way. Chiswick Chap (talk) 17:37, 25 March 2016 (UTC)

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French ship Castiglione (1812)

Are you sure it was decommissioned before it was launched? The Average Wikipedian (talk) 14:30, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

Launched in 1812, not 1814. Good call, thank you! Rama (talk) 14:34, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

Demerliac request

Hi Rama, does Demerliac have anything on Premier Consul (1800), launched 1800 at Nantes? The RN captured her in Mar 1801 and as HMS Scout she foundered later that year on her way to Newfoundland. Also, does he have anything on the cutter that the British captured in 1798 that became HMS Entreprenante (1799)? Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 17:59, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

Hello, I was beginning to miss those! I'll look into it in the next days, but I am already pretty confident that I have seen the name Premier Consul before. Cheers! Rama (talk) 08:14, 2 May 2016 (UTC)

For Entreprenante, she does not appear to have been a naval ship, probably a privateer that we will hopefuly find in Demerliac. Rama (talk) 08:26, 2 May 2016 (UTC)

And here we go:

• Premier Consul, 16-gun corvette built in Nantes in 1800, commissioned in December 1800 in Saint-Malo. 34.64 x 9.23 metres, 376 tonnes, 146 to 150 men. Departed either in December 1800 or in February/March 1801 under J. Pinson. Captured by HMS Dryad on 5 March 1801. (1800-1815, no 2003, p. 263)
• For Entreprenante, there is a degree of uncertainty, but she might be a privateer from Socoa, or possibly Saint-Jean de Luz, under Ensign Dominique Délouart. (1792-1799, no 2498, p. 279)

Not much but still better than nothing. Cheers! Rama (talk) 20:43, 2 May 2016 (UTC)

Super. It was more than we had before, and sometimes one bit leads to another. The Association des Descendants de Capitaines Corsaires lists Delouart and has him in command of Entreprenante in 1797. Unfortunately I have not been able to push this any further. The London Gazette does not list any likely captured cutters. The Association also lists J. Pinson as being from St Malo in An IX.

Now here is a really obscure one: Chandernagore. She was a pilot boat at Chandernagore and the British East India Company captured her in 1793 at Calcutta. They then used her as a pilot boat for two years before selling her. I know nothing more about her but would like to create a stub article nevertheless, mostly because she reflects a little-known part of the history of France in India. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 23:50, 2 May 2016 (UTC)

Sorry, I'm afraid I'm drawing a blank with this one. But do let me know if I can give a hand for anything else. Cheers! Rama (talk) 17:40, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for trying. As I said, she was pretty obscure. Acad Ronin (talk) 18:19, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

Happy Adminship😊!!!

Wishing Rama/Archive 8 a very happy adminship anniversary on behalf of the Wikipedia Birthday Committee! Wseef (talk) 10:52, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

Wseef (talk) 10:52, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

Thank you! Does that make it an adminiversary? Cheers! Rama (talk) 17:04, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

I didn't realize that you were an admin. Congrats. Acad Ronin (talk) 18:39, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

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Demerliac requests

I have just completed an article on the Hired armed lugger Sandwich. She was involved in the capture of several French privateers. If you could find Demerliac info on any or all, that would be great. Thanks. Acad Ronin (talk) 18:39, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

I found just a few things to add a little colour here and there. Cheers! Rama (talk) 09:56, 6 May 2016 (UTC)

Sometimes we find nothing (e.g. Chandernagore), and sometimes there is lots. The Sandwich article has turned out much longer, with more varied sources, than I expected when I started. So, many thanks. One question though. Are the casualties for Ville de Caen from her engagement withSealark, or her inconclusive engagement with Sandwich? By-the-way, are you keeping track of the questions I ask? You might inform the grant committee of the utility of the Demerliac books they funded. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 11:45, 6 May 2016 (UTC)

The casualties are from capture by Sealark.

I am not recording everything, but I did thank them and joined an example of one of the little mysteries we had solved with the Demerliac, and they seem happy with their investment. I also get a few requests from the francophone Wikipédia here and there on top of it, and of course I have my own little projects, such as documenting every single Téméraire-class ship of the line, that is exending into every ship of the line from Louis XVI, and looking more and more hungrily into Louis XV.

Best regards and good continuation! Rama (talk) 12:23, 6 May 2016 (UTC)

Hi Rama, here's a new one. I have just finished an article on the Hired armed cutter Sandwich. The French Navy captured her in 1799 and she served with them until 1803 when the Brits recaptured her. They briefly took her into service as HMS Sandwich. 1) I have not been able to find any mention in the Fonds Marine about her French service. 2) In May 1805 she captured three small French privateers in the Caribbean. Once again, I would welcome your assistance. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 20:51, 7 May 2016 (UTC)

Hello,

Not much I'm afraid, Renomée and Vénus seem to be under our radar. I can confirm your information regarding Rencontre, but nothing more. Same for Sandwich herself, whose entry is no 249 at page 43.

Cheers! Rama (talk) 06:05, 8 May 2016 (UTC)

Thanks. I have noticed that not surprisingly, the further one gets from the Channel/Manche, the thinner the records become. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 10:14, 8 May 2016 (UTC)

Hi Rama, I have one Général Ernouf, the former HMS Spencer (1795) being lost in March 1805. However, I have a second Général Ernouf capturing a prize in April 1806. Does Demerliac have anything to say about either? Are there more? Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 14:36, 9 May 2016 (UTC)

Hello,

Yes, there were at least four of these, based in Guadeloupe and named after governor Jean Augustin Ernouf (flattery goes a long way...):

• Général Ernouf (1805 - 1805) is your Spencer (p.322 no 2749)
• Général Ernouf (1805 - 1808), a Danish 16-gun brig under Alexis Grassin, taken by HMS Arethusa circa October 1808 (p.322 no 2750)
• Général Ernouf (1809 - 1809), scuttled to prevent capture by HMS Hazard (p.324 no 2765)
• Général Ernouf (1810 - 1810), a 6-gun brig, captured by HMS Freija on 18 January 1810 (324 no 2765)

Cheers! Rama (talk) 19:32, 9 May 2016 (UTC)

Great. I will do a ship page for them later this evening. Acad Ronin (talk) 20:39, 9 May 2016 (UTC)

I have created the article Général Ernouf (ship), though I am still adding a little to it. I have two questions though. You give the same Demerliac page and no. for the third and fourth General Ernoufs. Is this a mistake, or does he conflate the two vessels? Second, does he have anything on the Dame Ernouf (or Madame Ernouf). I have found two, one that HMS Curieux captured in 1805 and that became the short-lived HMS Seaforth, and the second that HMS Heureux captured in 1806. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 01:29, 10 May 2016 (UTC)

Hello,

I confirm that the two last Général Ernouf are listed under the same entry, even though they are two different ships one year apart.

For Dame Ernouf, I'll let you know as soon as I have the Dermerliac on hand again. The painting by Sartorius is splendid and extremely useful, this is quite a catch!

Cheers! Rama (talk) 08:38, 10 May 2016 (UTC)

Two General Ernouf - sloppy work on Demerliac's part, or at least the proof reader. Thanks for correcting the orthography on the names of the prizes. I believe in all cases the errors were present in the London Gazette notice, probably representing errors by the captors, the clerks of the Vice admiralty court, or the typesetters. As for the painting, it will adorn the article on Dame Ernouf in due course. The good thing about our period is that there are often lovely paintings available that are out of copyright. I wonder if the museums in which they are held, as with your models, get any benefit from the exposure we give them. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 14:11, 10 May 2016 (UTC)

So, we are looking at three Dame Ernouf:

• Dame Ernouf (1805 − 1805), a 200-ton brig with about 100 men and 16 6-pounder guns, the future HMS Seaforth (p 322 no 2748)
• Dame Ernouf (1806 − 1806), a privateer with 150 men and 17 guns, captured by HMS Heureux circa April 1806 (p 322 no 2753)
• Dame Ernouf (1807 − 1809), formerly the British privateer Barbara captured on 15 September 1807, which made several cruises under Alexis Grassin (p 323 no 2757)

Cheers ! Rama (talk) 18:03, 10 May 2016 (UTC)

Hi Rama, Dame Ernouf (ship) is up. It is clear that Alexis Grassin deserves a Wikipedia page, but for now I have too many other projects that take precedence. Could you be kind enough, when you have the time, to look up Perati? All the British records, starting with the London Gazette, are clear that Dame Ernouf was not Barbera. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 22:26, 11 May 2016 (UTC)

I've started combing my 19th century sources to flesh up the articles on the two ships and also drafted a little something on Grassin himself (which I see you also know and exploit). Futhermore, I hope to come into possession of Vous irez porter le fer et la flamme [1] which might give us a more serious historiographical perspective and maybe further details.

I look forwards very much to seeing your projects take shape, as always. Cheers! Rama (talk) 09:53, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for the Alexis Grassin article. Some puzzles remain. The key puzzle is why Lloyd's List reported that Dame Ernouf had captured several vessels in 1810 when she had been renamed Diligent. Two different vessels, or just the same vessel operating under both names? And then there is Perati. Again, thanks, and bonne continuation. Acad Ronin (talk) 10:24, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

Nice work on Laura and Whiting. Looking into Alexis Grassin has proved fruitful. I love it when stories start to knit together. Acad Ronin (talk) 17:41, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

Dermerliac confirms that Peraty is the former HMS Barbara (p. 323, no 2759). Nothing more that we do not have, except maybe that her plans were published in The Sailing Navy list by David Lyon at page 162. Demerliac says that the 1807 Dame Ernouf was also a former British Barbara, but this one would have been a privateer.

For Dame Ernouf vs Diligent, it is difficult to say, maybe the ship was well-known enough to be recognised after her name change. She is described as being painted all white in La Nicollière-Teijero, if she had retained the same colour scheme she must have stood out, for instance.

Cheers! Rama (talk) 17:55, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

Demerliac requests

Hi Rama, I have just finished HMS Speedwell (1780). She captured two privateers, Brave and Hazard. Do we have anything else on them? Also, a cutter Speedwell, which is probably not this one (the timing is not good and the captain's name does not match), captured two privateers, Complaisant and Poisson Volant in early December 1782. I am trying to figure out if the two Speedwell cutters are different and what the second cutter is (Revenue cutter, privateer, or what)? Thanks, and regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 02:30, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

Hello,

• Brave: we only know that she had 35 men and 3 guns. (1792-1799, p.250, no 2139)
• Hazard (or Hasard, "Hazard" is the old graphy and smells a bit of pre-Revolution times): This is weird, I have a Hasard commanded by a Pierre-François Beauvois as you said, of 16.49 metres with 40 men, but she is said to have had another cruise in 1805 ending in capture in January 1805 by HMS Echo. (1800-1815, p. 242, no 1736) I wonder whether this is not conflating two similar ships of the same name, which is quite common.

Clearly a different Hasard. Here is the link to the London Gazette letter."No. 15770". The London Gazette. 8 January 1805. . The 1805 Hasard is a new vessel, under the command of Citizen Lambert.

• Complaisant: No information on this one
• Poisson Volant: there was a Poisson Volant, possibly the former HMS Flying Fish, but this one appears to have been a naval ship and was known to still be at Saint Domingue in 1785 and in Brest in 1786, so she is probably not the same one.
• Speedwell: I am afraid I have nothing on her directly, sorry about that.

Cheers! Rama (talk) 10:59, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

I think my solving the Speedwell issue will depend on some original research in the National Archives at Kew, should the opportunity arise. Wikipedia has an article Poisson Volant, of which there were many, including many privateers captured. Unfortunately, I have not been able to link each privateer to its capture. Still, if it was easy, it wouldn't be as much fun. Thanks. Acad Ronin (talk) 21:56, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

Demerliac request

Hi Rama, I have just completed HMS Spider (1782). She is the former privateer Victoire. I have Demerliac info for her, but from the 1996 edition. I have carried over the reference to the 2004 edition, repeating the page and number info, but would appreciate your checking that the citation is still correct. Also, Spider captured five privateers. The one I need the most help with is Desiree, for which I have found nothing beyond the fact of her capture. Thanks and regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 21:20, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

Hello,

• Sans-Culottes: A 15-ton and 20-man privateer under F. Eudes, commissioned in Saint-Malo in 1793. (1792-1799 p. 243 no 2052)
• Désirée: Sorry, nothing on her.
• Flibustier: Brig commissioned either in 1796 or 1797, under J.-M. Capel. 50 tons, 14 guns and between 40 and 70 men. (1792-1799 p. 244 no 2065)
• Conception: a privateer gondola (I am not quite clear on the sort of ship that refers to) commissioned in Ajaccio in 1801, with 2 guns and 8 swivel guns, and 47 men. Interesting, she appears to have been captured by the British on 24 April 1804 already, but retaken by her own crew. (1800-1815 p. 309 no 2594)
• Andromeda: commissioned in 1805, probably Italian. Nothing more I am afraid. (1800-1815 p. 312 no 2651)

Strangely, I have not found Victoire herself, there is a privateer from Dunkirk but she was a captured English Endeavour (not that one) and seems to have been sold to commerce. Cheers! Rama (talk) 18:09, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for all this. Interesting about Conception. I couldn't find anything in my English sources, but that is not surprising. Looking at the footnotes for Spider, I see a reference to Demerliac, p. 198, no. 1989. I don't know where I got that from though. I believe that it may be from the 1774-1792 book. I am also interested in anything he might have on Hirondelle, launched in 1804 and captured that year to become HMS Hirondelle (1804). No rush on these as I am going on vacation shortly and won't be back until mid-June. I will revisit Wikipedia from time-to-time, Wifi permitting, but my presence will be sporadic. Regards, and thanks again, Acad Ronin (talk) 19:07, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

Hello,

Demerliac, p. 198, no. 1989 in 1774-1792 is an Amphitrite, privateer. No indication that she has any connection to our Victoire.

For Hirondelle, not a whole much (p.301 no 2492): she was a privateer from Marseille with 180 men and 14 guns. She is reported captured in July 1804 by the 56-gun HMS Madras, I don't quite know how that squares with your records.

Cheers and enjoy your vacation! Rama (talk) 19:09, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

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Different sort of request

Hi Rama, HMS Emerald is currently undergoing review for GA status, and a question has come up. On 2 September 1798 the French aviso Anemone grounded. She was carrying General Camin and Citoyen Valette, Aide-de-Camp to General Napoleon Bonaparte, with dispatches from Toulon. Camin and Valette were among the survivors of the grounding that local Arabs killed. Do your sources have given/Christian names for Camin and Valette? Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 20:57, 21 June 2016 (UTC)

Hello,

Nothing in what I have on hand at the moment; I'll try to dig deeper in other sources next week. Cheers! Rama (talk) 14:13, 23 June 2016 (UTC)

Thanks. There is also always the possibility that the London Gazette letter garbled their names. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 14:35, 23 June 2016 (UTC)

Sorry, to clarify: I did find an allusion to the incident in Histoire des marins sous la République, the names are correct (except the name of the ship, which is Anémone). The first names I was unable to find, though. General Camin seems to have been involved in the Italian campaign, ther ecould be some leads there. Cheers! Rama (talk) 15:13, 23 June 2016 (UTC)

Here is the relevant section:

“ l'enseigne Garibon, capitaine de l'aviso l'Anémone, fit côte à 3 lieues d'Alexandrie, le 2 septembre 1798, pour échapper aux poursuites d'une frégate anglaise. Le général Camin, passager, d'autres officiers, des marins, voulurent gagner la ville à pied; mais, tout à coup, des Arabes coururent en jetant des cris de mort. Malheureusement, les fusils mouillés ne purent servir;

nos pauvres compatriotes, cernés de toutes parts, furent mis à nu, massacrés sans pitié! A peine si quelques-uns, seulement, gagnèrent, à la nage, les canots de la frégate anglaise, à l'aide de barils de galère que nos ennemis filèrent dans les récifs. Le général Camin fut tué en se défendant vaillamment.

”

The incident is also mentioned in the Fonds Marine and in Troude (Tome 3, p. 145). Cheers! Rama (talk) 15:29, 23 June 2016 (UTC)

Oh, the various sources write Garibou or Garibon, I think that Garibou is the correct spelling. Rama (talk) 15:34, 23 June 2016 (UTC)

OK. I have tracked down Adjutant General Jean-Baptiste Camin (1760-1798), of Calais. There exists apparently a small book published in 1993 titled Le Fort Camin du Caire et l'Adjudant Général Camin (1760-1798), de Calais. Unfortunately that is as far as I have gotten. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 23:03, 23 June 2016 (UTC)

Oh, well done! I'll try and see whether I can find anything to consolidate this. Cheers! Rama (talk) 08:08, 24 June 2016 (UTC)

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Demerliac request

Hi Rama, Nice photo of HMS Euryalus (1803). Would it be possible to see if Demerliac has anything on four privateers that HMS Emerald (1795) captured: Austerlitz, Incomperable, Belle Etoile, and Auguste? Also, does he have anything on HMS Mosambique (1804), or HMS Saint Lucia (1803) in their earlier, French service? Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 15:45, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

Hello, glad to see you well and kicking!

• Austerlitz: a brig from Nantes under Gatien Lafont, with 96 men and 14 guns. (p.278 no 2190)
• Incomparable: a brig or lugger from Saint-Malo, commissioned in November 1807. She served under René Rosse until March 1808, then from December under Jean-Baptiste Dupuis, and then from May 1809 made two cruises under Charles Tribalau. (p.267 no 2057)
• Nothing on Belle Étoile, sorry
• Auguste: a three-masted ship built in Bordeaux by Courau brothers (probably something akin to Confiance, Bordeaux built dozens of these corvettes for privateers), 33.13 by 9.74 metres, 300 tonnes, 70 men and 18 8-pounder guns. She cruised under Henry the younger from 1808 to 1809, and again from September 1910 to November. She also cruised under La Case at some point in 1809 or 1810. In December 1810, command passed to Juan Jamays, who was in charge when she was captured. (p.287 no 2303)
• Mosambique: schooner built in 1798 and commissioned as a privateer in early 1804. She was 20.6 by 6.1 metres, with a 3-month autonomy, 110 tonnes, 60 men and 10 12-pounder carronades. She was cruising under Captain Vallentes when captured (p.324 no 2766)
• Enfant Prodigue: schooner built in the USA in 1790 and purchased by the Navy at Bordeaux in 1796. Coppered in December 1790 at Lorient. Captured by Emerald in 1803, and recaptured in March 1807 by the French privateers Vengeance and Friponne. Her subsequent fate is not known. (p.38 no 203)

Cheers! Rama (talk) 19:48, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

Super. Thanks for the fast reply. (I am back from back from a vacation to the south of Sicily in the footsteps of Commissario Montalbano, and a conference. Now I have nothing to look forward to for the rest of the summer but work and Wikipedia.). Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 20:06, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

I have the ambition to pay a visit to HMS Victory, but that will be at some unspecified moment maybe in autumn. Looking forwards to your oncoming works! Cheers! Rama (talk) 20:21, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

Nice

Cher ami, je suis désolé. Acad Ronin (talk) 23:04, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

As always, we have to be humane and sensitive without losing perspective, and study the larger scheme of things while keeping in touch with the feelings of individuals. Wherever a single human is being wronged, however insignificant or hateful they may be, humanity as a whole is suffering; and with every act of love or science, harmony strengthens. Single intense events such as this one are mere dots in a vast painting of tears, of joy and hope, where light will eventually prevail.

Cheers and keep up the good work! Rama (talk) 08:42, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

Demerliac request

Hi Rama, back to the mundane. When you have the time, could you please look at HMS Morgiana (1800) and her prize the privateer Marguerite, HMS Poulette (1799), and HMS Actif (1794). Thanks and regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 02:54, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

Hello,

• Morgiana: the only Actif I have matching the description at Bordeaux at that time is a 18-gun, 250-ton brig commissioned in 1799; captured by HMS Revolutionnaire in February 1801 and recommissioned in the Royal Navy as Moucheron; lost in the Mediterranean in April 1807. There might have been some sort of mix-up there. (1792-1799, no 2400 p.272)
• Marguerite: no ship with the correct timeframe matches, sorry.
• Poulette: Foudroyant, privateer corvette commissioned in 1798 (1792-1799, no 2386 p.271). Nothing else from her French career I'm afraid.
• Actif: Privateer brig frin Liverpool, 11 guns and 3 howitzers, captured by Sémillante in May 1793. Circa 150 tons and 6 to 16 guns; recaptured by HMS Iphigenie in March 1794. (1792-1799, no 603 p. 98)

I am sorry, I fear that I came up with at best confirmation of information you already have in much more details, and can provide at best decoration references. I'll try to run a grep on my files and see if I come up with mentions of these ships. Cheers! Rama (talk) 05:29, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for the effort. No worries. I will other queries in due course and perhaps we will have better luck with them. In the meantime, there is clearly a Morgiana/Moucheron mixup in the French records as apparently both Demerliac and Roche repeat the same misinformation. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 11:31, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

Three new Demerliac requests, please. First, HMS Garland (1798) captured a French privateer Jeune Nantaise in 1798. Second, HMS Garland (1800) was the former French privateer Mars. Third, HMS Eclair (1801) was the former French naval schooner Eclair, launched at Nantes in 1799. Does Demerliac have anything on any of these three vessels? Thanks, Acad Ronin (talk) 02:41, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

Hello!

• Jeune Nantaise: Privateer from unknown home port operating in the Carribean from 1798, 39 men and 4 guns. (1792-1799, no 2869, p.306)
• Mars: One of these corvettes built in Bordeaux for privateer warfare: commissionned circa 1798 under Captain Estrenne, with 180 men and 22 guns (pierced for 24) (1792-1799, no 2394, p.272)
• Éclair: the sixth of Pierre Ozanne's Télégraphe-class schooners. Laid down in May 1799 in Nantes by Mathurin, Louis and Antoine Crucy, launched in November 1799. Originally 18 swivel guns, upgraded circa Augst 1800 to 2 4-pounder guns and 14 1-pounder swivel guns, and later to 4 4-pounders and 12 1-pounders. Captured in January 1801. (1792-1799, no 689, p.108). Roche gives her dimensions at 70 tons, 25 x 6.2 x 2.7 metres, and her commanding officer as Ensign Sougé. (vol.1 p. 165)

Cheers! Rama (talk) 14:55, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

Thanks. A couple of useful bits. Unfortunately it looks like Demerliac got his info on Jeune Nantaise from the letter in the London Gazette. She probably was a vessel commissioned in the Caribbean for which information never reached back to France. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 18:24, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

Three more Demeriliacs

Hi Rama, 1) HMS Imogen (1800) was the privateer Diable à Quatre, launched at Bordeaux in 1792 and captured by Thames in 1800. 2) The British captured two privateers named Hardi, and took them both into service, albeit very briefly: one was the French 18-gun privateer sloop Hardi that Hazard captured on 1 April 1797, and the second was the French privateer Hardi that HMS Anson captured in 1800. Later that year her name was changed to Rosario. Thanks for the help. Acad Ronin (talk) 01:13, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

I'll get on it as soon as I have the books on hand, might be a couple of days. Cheers! Rama (talk) 22:01, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

Great. No rush. By the way, what does "Diable a Quatre" mean? It was the name of an 18th century opera, but the term is clearly older than that. The devil quadrupled? Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 22:39, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

I had to look it up, because it has faded into obscurity. Bear with me.

• there use to be a genre of popular comic theatre play called "diablerie", featuring the devil, and with four characters;
• from there arose the expression "faire le diable à quatre" (something like "do as the devil in a foursome"), meaning "causing a disturbance";
• then "diable à quatre" went to designate a person causing such a disurbance.

The name is thus quite typical for a privateer aiming at disturbing an opponent's commerce. You find lots of similar names referring to practical jokes or tricksters.

This being said, I think you would have to interview lots of people at random before finding one who ever heard this expression. Great to show off to your French-speaking acquaintances.

Cheers! Rama (talk) 05:30, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

Marvelous. Many thanks. I will try it on one of my Francophone colleagues. Acad Ronin (talk) 12:14, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

So:

• Diable à Quatre: a privateer corvette commissioned in Bordeaux in October 1799, believed to have been built in 1792. Circa 350 tons, 150 men and 16 guns, under a Le Mestre or Le Maître (no 2404 p.272)
• Hardi or possibly Hardy: Privateer brig commissioned in Brest in October 1796 by Florentin Lavallée. Under a Captain Cousin, with 130 to 164 men and 18 8-pounders. (no 2167 p.252)
• Hardi (Rosario): a privateer 350 tonne corvette commissioned in Bordeaux cirva June 1796 under a Captain Reault. She was commissionned as an armed merchantman in 1799, with 194 men and 18 guns. Her plan was taken after her captured and is held at the Nation Maritime Museum. (no 2355 p.268)

Cheers! Rama (talk) 17:47, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

That was fast. Many thanks. I have implemented Diable a Quatre (HMS Imogen (1800)), and Hardi (HMS Hardi (1797)). Hardi/Diable will take another day or so as there is lots about her. The lead to the NMM plans helped. I have uploaded the plan to Wikicommons (File:HMS Rosario (1800) plan.jpg). Interestingly, the UK and Demerliac data on Rosario deviate in terms of her launch year. I will have to note the discrepancy. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 19:35, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

Spectacular, I am delighted to have been accessory to such work! Cheers! Rama (talk) 21:00, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

Two probably dead-end Demerliacs

Hi Rama, I have implemented Hardi/Rosario as HMS Rosario (1800) - many thanks. I have also just completed HMS Saint Christopher (1806). She is the former French privateer Mohawk, captured in 1806. She herself captured the French privateer Entreprenante in January 1807. Unfortunately, these two captures took place in the Caribbean so it is likely that Demerliac will have little or nothing about them. Still, I would appreciate your checking. Thanks and regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 01:39, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

Mohawk rings a bell. I'll look that up in the evening hopefully. Cheers! Rama (talk) 10:00, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

There is a Mohawk (1781 ship) that has an interesting history (three nationalities), but it is a different vessel. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 10:26, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

Ah yes, this one. Demerliac mentions Mohawk as an 18-gun corvette captured from the British, re-captured near St-Christopher in 1807. That's about it and I don't know how that squares with your dates. Unnumbered entry at page 338. Nothing on Entreprenante, though. Cheers! Rama (talk) 20:28, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

The dates don't work, unfortunately. I am not surprised. The Admiralty too often did not know that they owned certain vessels when admirals in the Americas, or the Med, or India, bought brigs or other small vessels as tenders to a a ship of the line. I keep running into vessels that have a mention in the London Gazette, but no other record. And there is no Demerliac equivalent for British privateers. Thanks again, and regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 01:44, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

Three Caribbean Demerliacs

Hi Rama, here are three more low-probability requests. First, is there anything on the privateer Elizabeth, which HMS Kingfisher (1804) captured in December 1805. Elizabeth was Guadeloupe-based. Second, there is a London Gazette announcement awarding head money to the crew of HMS Melville for two privateers, Pensee and Favorite. I have not been able to find anything more in British records. The captures would have occurred in the Caribbean sometime in 1807-08. It is not even clear that Melville was the primary captor or merely in company. Thanks, and regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 12:31, 6 August 2016 (UTC)

Hello, and thank you for you patience.

• Elizabeth: I have an Élisabeth, a schooner of 21.95 by 6.25 metres, 141 tonnes, with 102 men and 10 guns (unnumbered, p.335) Recomissioned and lost when she capsized in October 1814.
• Pensée: was a schooner from Martinique, commissioned as a privateer in March 1807 under Captain Morisseau. Returned to Fort-de-France in April 1807, nothing more on her (no 2771 p. 324)
• Favorite: I have a ship of unspecified sail plan 150 men and 16 guns, reported captured by HMS Jason in March 1807 (unnumbered, p.335). I don't know whether she is the one you want. There was also a corvette from Bordeaux from 1800, but I doubt she could be the one, as you said privateers, whether out of good or bad luck, had brief careers.

Cheers! Rama (talk) 17:47, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

Many thanks for this. I have added the info on Pensee and Favorite to the article on the French corvette Naïade (1793), but mentioning that the attribution is speculative. With respect to Elizabeth, does Demerliac refer to her having been captured in 1805/1806? Also, what does the "recommissioning" mean? She, HMS Elizabeth did founder in 1814 in the West Indies. Lastly, if this is the same vessel, does Demerliac give any info on her launch year, location of construction, or any early history? Thanks, Acad Ronin (talk) 01:21, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

Hello, no sorry, I have given everything Demerliac says. The unnumbered ships are those for which information is especially patchy, it seems that at some point many ships lying around in reasonably good shape were repurposed as privateers -- much like some people slap a ZSU23 on a Toyota and call it a Technical, good luck tracing the history of the vehicle... Rama (talk) 07:31, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

Demerliac, Troude, & Roche request

Hi Rama, I am working on the Loire class flutes Loire and Seine, which were destroyed in the battle at Anse à la Barque, Guadeloupe, on 18 December 1809. James states that they were armed with twenty mixed long 18-pounder guns and 36-pounder carronades, but Winfield and Roberts describes them as being armed with twenty long 8-pounder guns. Can Demerliac or Roche resolve the discrepancy? Also, I do not have searchable on-line access to Troude, Vol. 4. Does he have anything on the battle, or the earlier battle with Junon? If yes, what pages? Thanks and regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 09:54, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

Hello, I'll get on this this evening, along with your previous request above. Cheers! Rama (talk) 11:42, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

Hello again,

Of course these depiction are entirely possibly both true reflecting different moments of the careers of the ships; that being said, 18-pounders and large carronades (or Obusier de vaisseau, often what is refered to as a 36-pounder carronade on French ships) sounds quite heavy for fluyts, I would tend to lean towards Winfield. Demerliac (Loire no 1230 p 150, Seine no 1231 p 150) gives their armament at 20 8-pounders, but pierced for 24 (The plans are at the Service Historique de la Marine at SH 320 C2).

You will find a tale of the battle in Volume 4, pp. 78-81, as well as in Guérin's Histoire maritime de France, vol 6, p.473 . Do not hesitate to ask if I can help you with anything there. Cheers! Rama (talk) 18:20, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

With the page numbers from Troude I was able to access the relevant discussion. I have added the info to several articles that discuss the action at Anse à la Barque. Troude contradicts James in a couple of places and I always like it when I can deliver the other side's report. I agree re the 8-pounder guns and that's what I have put in my article Loire-class flûte. I couldn't find a vol. 6 for Guérin, but not to worry; it looks like his description is so short that Troude is more than enough. Thanks again for the Troude info. I was really pleased to be able to get the other side, especially where James is concerned - he is not that objective. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 01:26, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

Incidentally, would you like a copy of my archives of digitalised naval documents? I could put up a copy on a Cloud drive for you to download, these are all public domain documents after all, and you would have both PDF and text versions for the key ones such as Troude. Do tell if interested. Cheers! Rama (talk) 07:34, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

I would certainly appreciate the Troude. Am less sure about the others as I haven't had any need of them in the past. Still, computer data storage is today cheap.

In the meantime, here is another Demerliac request. I have just finished the article Hired armed cutter Albion. In 1803 she captured one privateer Marengo. Then in Jan 1804 she is reported to have captured three more privateers: Marengo, Tureen de Naab, and Mercurius. Mercurius was a lugger/lougre. I think the second Marengo was a different ship, but obviously I can't be sure. As usual, I appreciate your help. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 23:27, 13 August 2016 (UTC)

If I may add a vessel to this request: San Façon, a sloop of four 2-pounder guns, that HMS Jackal (1801) captured on 29 September 1803. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 21:36, 14 August 2016 (UTC)

Hello,

• Marengo: Privateer cutter from Cherbourg, commissioned in 1801. In June 1803 she was under Jean-Pierre Granger with 26 men and 4 guns. (no 1936, p.258) Dermerliac mentions her capture by Albion, but does not know whether it was a 22-gun or a 74-gun, so we are once again going to have the best resource available on the matter.
• Marengo: I do not have a Marengo captured in 1804, sorry.
• Tureen de Naab: Nothing on her. An intriguing name
• Mercurius: nothing again :(
• Sans Façon: I have three ships by that name, but the dates do not match. It's going to be "Sans" (French for without) rather than "San" (Spanish for saint), "sans façon" means "without undue niceties" (you still use the expression nowadays to politely say "no thank you").

Not a very rich harvest this time, sorry. Cheers! Rama (talk) 19:28, 16 August 2016 (UTC)

Hi Rama, given that we are dealing with a period now over 200 years ago and mostly minor entities out in the Western hemisphere, 1 out of 5 is not bad. I figured that San Façon should be Sans Façon, but I am always torn between putting down the name exactly how it is in the record, and what I think it probably should be. Certainly in the article I will put it in as the record has it just in case someone wants to verify my info. Part of the trick in searching these old docs is trying to figure out what a non-Francophone printer made of a report by a (generally) non-Francophone British officer, and then how optical character readers have modified things. In the London Gazette I had to look both under Jalouse and Jaloufe, and Obfervateur and Observateur, for example. Anyway, I should have some more for you soon, all taken in the Channel, so we may have more luck. Thanks, and regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 19:52, 16 August 2016 (UTC)

I assure you, the French registers and author make an utter pig's breakfast of British names as well. More fun for us to have, I suppose. Cheers! Rama (talk) 22:36, 16 August 2016 (UTC)