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Demerliac

Hi Rama, do we have anything on a French privateer Creole that operated out of Guadeloupe in 1805 under the command of Pierre Burgman? No rush. She captured the slaver Esther after a notable engagement, and then massacred the captain and part of the crew. This is on my "to do" list, but not yet a priority. Regards,Acad Ronin (talk) 13:43, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

Also, does Demerliac have a Temeraire privateer captured in the Med in 1796? I am trying to figure out what vessel that was as the RN sailed her for a while. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 19:04, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

Hello,

There was a Créole, privateer schooner from Guyane, but she seems to have operated from 1808 (n°2784, p.325 of 1800-1815). The Portuguese captured her in January 1809 and renamed her Lusitania. She might be the same ship as the brig Créole, commissioned in 1805, in which case she was the formerly British Isabella, of Spanish origin, captured in the Indian Ocean in August or September 1805, but I am skeptical as she is consistently reported in the Indian Ocean all through these years. I have nothing on Esther.

I am unsure about Téméraire; either I have nothing, or if the captor was HMS Dido, she was a xebec, previously Révolutionnaire and renammed Téméraire in 1794 (2×12-pounders, 2×8-pounders and 2x4-pounders) (n°724, p.113 of 1792-1799).

Cheers! Rama (talk) 21:48, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for looking. Créole will remain a mystery for now. I did a little digging and Téméraire does seem to be the xebec that Dido captured. Unfortunately, her history in British hands is confused. She may have been renamed Transfer, but even so, there may have been two HMS Transfers, ex-Téméraires both operating in the Med at the same time. The second one apparently was the polacca-rigged French privateer Quatre Freres. launched in 1796 that Irresistible captured in April 1797. Does Demerliac have anything on Quatre Freres? Transfer is going to take some pretty clever disentangling, which in turn will also require a lot of luck. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 02:14, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

I'm looking this up this evening Inch'Allah, but just before I forget, the xebec Téméraire seems to have been a naval ship. Cheers! Rama (talk) 08:36, 6 February 2017 (UTC) Or as we say in Amurica, "The good Lord willing and the river don't rise."

Also, does Demerliac have anything on the privateer Revanche, of Guadeloupe? She is supposed to have been the British slaver British Tar that an unnamed French privateer captured in 1806 and brought into Guadeleoupe. She then served as a privateer for some time, and had a sanguinary but inconclusive fight with HMS Curieux. She sailed to Bordeaux and was on her way back as a letter of marque, i.e., carrying cargo, when HMS Belette captured her on 5 December 1808 and took her into Antigua. As always, Thanks.Acad Ronin (talk) 23:54, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

Hello,

• Quatre frères: privateer brig of 150 tons of load, commissioned in 1796 in Bordeau under Martial Dupeyrat with 6 guns, 10 swivel guns and 1 6-barrel contraption akin to a volley gun (unusual, I had never seen anything of the sort before), and 38 men. (n°2359, p.268 of 1792-1799)
• Revanche: formerly the British slaver Tar, from Liverpool, pierced for 24 guns. Commissioned as a privateer in Guadeloupe in September 1807 under Grassin; second cruise from November 1807 to January 1808 under Vidal, with 200 men (unconfirmed) and 7 guns (1 12-pounder and 6 4-pounders). Third cruise with 44 men and 6 guns in 1808, until captured by HMS Belette. (n°1760, p.323 of 1800-1815'

Cheers! Rama (talk) 20:37, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

Hi Rama, many thanks for this. The Revanche info couldn't be better. It is consistent with all the other info. The Quatre Freres is intriguing because of the volley gun. Curiously, though, Demerliac apparently made no mention of her being the polacca-rigged French privateer Quatre Freres, launched in 1796 that Irresistible captured in April 1797. This may take a little more work on my part. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 00:41, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

FYI: British Tar (1797 ship) is up. The French WP people should be happy with the outcome of their Demerliac grant.Acad Ronin (talk) 01:17, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

Hello, apologies for Quatre Frères, I assumed you were only intersted in parts you might not already have, and I failed to realise that confirming information was important as well. Here is what I have: in 1797, she was captured by the British (no mention of a ship name), and brought into Royal Navy service as HMS Transfer; listed as a 181-ton brig 80 × 23'3" × 14'6" with 70 men and 12 6-pounders. Sold in Malta in 1802, and possibly captured by the Americans in 1804. Hope that this can feed your sleuthing! Cheers! Rama (talk) 07:26, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

Sorry, I should have been clearer. That's what I was looking for. The problem I am wrestling with here is that there appear to have been two Transfers in the Med at the same time, the one that had been Temeraire, and the one that had been Quatre Freres. I was hoping that Demerliac could give me some thread I could use to disentangle them a little more. Curious that the Americans might have captured her. That would imply that some North African had purchased her in Malta. That too is an interesting thread. Regards,12:42, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

Hi Rama: You might enjoy looking at:

• Quatre frères (1796 ship)
• French ship Révolutionnaire (1793)

If you can add anything from other French sources, please do. In the meantime, thanks for the help.Acad Ronin (talk) 17:17, 9 February 2017 (UTC)

Thank you! Spectacular success on Quatre frères, in particular. Cheers! Rama (talk) 17:28, 9 February 2017 (UTC)

Wikicommons issue

The Sea War Museum in Jutland kindly sent me some photos of the British submarine E-50's conning tower, and photo of the model of the submarine. I had sent them some corrections for their website, and asked them to post one of their photos to Wikipedia. Instead they sent me the photos, and stated that I could upload them to Wikipedia, so long as I credited the Museum, which I would of course do. However, how do I deal with the copyright release issue? They clearly have no Wikicommons/Wikipedia knowledge whatsoever. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 15:00, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

Ah yes, this is a rather typical case.

Here, we are missing a Free licence (i.e. giving a blanket permission to use the images modified or not, for any purpose including commmercial) under which the Museum is willing to publish the photographs. A good example is the Cc-by-sa-4.0 [1]. A meail by the museum is sufficient to establish their intent, and you could forward the correspondance to permissions-commonswikimedia.org to confirm the copyright status (see Commons:OTRS for further information).

Nice catch, incidentally! Cheers! Rama (talk) 18:53, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

I have forwarded the email to me on to permissions-commons. Thanks for the info. One of the photos is of a model of E-50, and I would like to post it both to the article on her, and to the article on the E-class subs. I would also post one of the two photos of the conning tower to the E-50 article. It's great stuff and would add to both. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 20:48, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

Demerliac request

Hi Rama, no rest for the wicked. I am trying to sort out the early history of HMS Tarleton (1782). I have footnote that reads "Demerliac (1996), p.81, #527", but I don't anymore know what he said about the vessel. The issue is, how many Tarletons did the French Navy capture and use in 1781-82? There is evidence for two, but the records, British and French, are highly incomplete and ambiguous. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 22:37, 9 February 2017 (UTC)

Hello,

I do have Tarleton lists as n°527 p.81 of 1774-1792: a 14-gun brig that Demerliac states was commissioned in 1982 in the Royal Navy, and captured the same year. Refit at some point, then taken in 1793 in Toulon and recommissioned in the RN as a fireship, and struck in 1798. 50 men and 14 to 16 four-pounders, and 6 month worth of food.

Cheers! Rama (talk) 18:48, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

Thanks. That was what I was afraid of. I apparently still have two Tarletons in French hands, one in the Chesapeake between Jan to June 1783,

and the other in San Domingue in January 1783. I am guessing the first is the one captured from the RN, and the second is a merchantman captured off San Domingue in October 1782, but I am not sure. I think the second is the one that went to Toulon. I do wish everyone had kept better records. Rien a faire. I will go with my instincts while making sure to discuss the dilemma. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 20:56, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

Palais Rohan, Strasbourg

Bonjour Rama, est-ce que tu ne voudrais pas revoir ma candidature au titre d'excellent article Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Palais Rohan, Strasbourg/archive1 ? Je sais que tu connais bien cet endroit, tes nombreuses photos sur Commons le prouvent. Désolé de réitérer ma demande, mais en français et sur ta PDD, c'est mieux. Cordialement, --Edelseider (talk) 12:54, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

Salut, et bravo pour ton travail dans ce cas précis, et pour tout l'ensemble de ton œuvre, dont chaque détail est toujours un vrai plaisir à rencontrer au détour d'une pérégrination wikipédienne.

J'ai peur que tu ne me flattes exagérément, j'ai flâné devant le Palais des Rohan et je l'ai visité une ou deux fois comme tout le monde, mais dire que je le connais bien est très exagéré. Je ne suis pas non plus impliqué dans les Featured Articles de en:, de sorte que je ne suis pas compétent pour cet aspect-là non plus (mon expérience de la chose, comme requérant, est que personne ne va te poser de question de fond et qu'ils peuvent tourner en rond sur des questions annexes à t'en rendre dingue, de sorte que j'ai fini par considérer que je préfère investir mon énergie dans du contenu que dans ce genre de finitions). Bonne continuation et bonne chance à toi ! Rama (talk) 08:24, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

Aïe, tu me rends pessimiste ! Enfin, encore moins idéaliste, plutôt. I will have to wait...

La dernière fois que j'ai consulté un article polémique sur fr:, c'était il y a au moins huit ans et j'en ai été malade pendant des jours entier : c'était l'article "Thierry Meyssan", entièrement écrit ou réécrit par l'intéressé, une hagiographie sans la moindre zone d'ombre. Et sans le moindre contradicteur. Je ne sais pas ce que l'article est devenu et ce que sont devenus les islamistes, dieudonnistes et négationnistes de tout poil qui sévissaient alors. Ils y sont peut-être toujours, et ils ont peut-être gagné ! Du coup, je me sens mieux sur Commons, et ici.

Tu es courageux. --Edelseider (talk) 09:37, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

Demerliac requests

Hi Rama: I have just finished two articles - HMS Ferret (1784) and Rolla (1805 ship). In the Ferret article there are four French privateers: Jean Bart, Jeune Marie, Fantasie, and Eleonore, and I wonder if Demerliac can add anything. As far as Rolla is concerned, she served for under six months with Linois' squadron between her capture and recapture, and I wonder if Demerliac can add anything re her time in French hands. Thanks and regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 18:44, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

Hello, a little emergency yesterday kept me away from the Good Book, but I have better expectations for this evening. Cheers! Rama (talk) 08:14, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

No worries. ANd I heard from Wikicommons and have passed the info on to the Jutland museum people. I stand in high hopes of getting the model and conning tower photos up eventually.Acad Ronin (talk) 12:38, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

• Jean Bart: English-built privateer of 50 tons of load, commissioned in February 1793 under Jean-Baptiste Neuts with 33 to 37 men and 6 guns. (n°1656, p.212) Probably retaken in August 1793 and commissioned in the French Navy as the lugger Jean Bart, with 21 men and 8 swivel guns, decommissioned in 1800 in Cherbourg (n°664, p.105)
• Jeune Marie: Privateer commissioned in February 1793 under Philippe-Laurent Everaert, 65 tons of load, 38 men and 2 guns. (n°1659, p.212)
• Fantasie: Privateer commissioned before April 1793 under Jacques-François Leclerc, 55 tons of load, 38 to 43 men, with 6 guns and 2 swivel guns. (n°1647, p. 211)
• Éléonore: no ship in the relevant period.
• Rolla: not much you would not already have, value estimated to amount to 6000 piasters. (n° 932, p.121 of 1800-1815)

Cheers! Rama (talk) 22:31, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

Good info. I have added the info to the relevant articles, of which I am now rather proud. Lots of tieing together of several threads backed by a broad set of sources, including enemy. Many thanks.Acad Ronin (talk) 23:43, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

The covering of sloop-sized British ships is getting quite impressive thanks to you. I have all French ships of the line from Louis XVI but not before, not even all frigates, and the articles are nowhere as detailed than those you write on 10-gun ships. Rama (talk) 08:53, 17 February 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for the kind words. The reason I like the small vessels is that I have discovered it is where I can add the most value. The large vessels are well-documented because of their importance, and I will get to them Inshallah, when I have done what I can with the smaller ones. But the smaller vessels often have more complex histories when they changed hands (and roles), and so challenge my research skills. They are also where Wikipedia comes into its own because there I can combine the disparate sources so the WP article is more comprehensive (and frequently more accurate) than any of its sources. Cheers. Acad Ronin (talk) 12:34, 17 February 2017 (UTC)

Demerliac request

Hi Rama: I have just put up Hired armed cutter John Bull. Apparently the French privateer Pourvoyeur captured her in 1809. Does Demerliac have anything on Pourvoyeur? Thanks and regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 02:27, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

The name rings a bell, I'll look it up this evening. Cheers! Rama (talk) 10:10, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

Hello again,

• Pourvoyeur: lugger from Dieppe commissioned in August 1809, apparently a captured privateer from Jersey. She was under Antoine-Joesph Preira, who went as "Balidar" for a nom de guerre, with 40 men and 8 guns. From 1811 she cruised again, captain unknown. (n°1855, p.252 of 1800-1815)
• John Bull: commissioned in August 1810 with 10 carronnades, 12 or 18-pounders. (n°1854, p.252 of 1800-1815)

Cheers! Rama (talk) 18:58, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

Excellent. Implemented. Many thanks. Includes some new threads to pull on. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 21:28, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

Pulled a little and got a little more. The Balidar name was a useful lead. Unfortunately, couldn't find anything on the French John Bull. Perhaps some day. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 02:49, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

Clever use of the Journal de Paris! I tried collecting issues of the Moniteur for this purpose but I never got much from this, while you managed an impressing amount of details on a single-cutter action. Congratulations and cheers! Rama (talk) 05:35, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

Luck is so much a part of research. How much space did the editor of the Journal have to fill? Why did he bother to give the name of any vessels or masters, especially enemy ones? Etc. Distinctive names are such a boon to the researcher; they can make a great thread for pulling. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 04:01, 25 February 2017 (UTC)

Two Demerliac requests found en passant

• HMS Saldanha (1809): privateer Vice-Amiral Martin
• HMS Foxhound (1809): Privateers Dart (possibly Fleche?), and Augusta.

Regards, Acad Ronin (talk)

Hello,

* Vice-Amiral Martin: her existence is mentioned p. 340 of 1800-1815, but she has no information and no number. Strange for a ship that size.

• Dart: nothing, which is also disappointing for a 14-gun.
• Augusta: possibly Auguste, a 14-gun privateer commissioned in Saint-Malo in November 1811 under Pierre Jean Marie Lepeltier (or Pelletier), with 83 to 95 men and 10 4-pounders and 4 9-pounder carronades, wrecked off Béniguet on 23 January 1804 (n°2113, p.272)

Cheers! Rama (talk) 21:25, 27 February 2017 (UTC)

Hi Rama: Could you please verify the year of Auguste's loss. I assume the correct year is 1814, but would like to check. Assuming that 1814 is correct, one out of three is a reasonable success rate; we have had worse. I was able to pull on the thread and discovered a little more about her loss. I have also found mention of four or so of her captures, but that I haven't done anything with. Thanks and regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 00:28, 28 February 2017 (UTC)

Funnily enough, I can confirm that the typo is in Demerliac too, but there is no doubt that 1814 was intended. The activity period is mentionned as 1812-1814. Cheers! Rama (talk) 07:11, 28 February 2017 (UTC)

Thanks. That was my reading as well, but just wanted to be sure. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 12:55, 28 February 2017 (UTC)

In the meantime, again en passant, does Demerliac have anything on Poulette (at HMS Spitfire (1793)), or Conventione National (at HMS Marie Antoinette (1793)? There is always a chance that he has something to add. Thanks and cheers, 12:55, 28 February 2017 (UTC)

Hello, sorry for the late reply, rather hectic days here.

• Poulette : privateer from unknown home port operating in the Carribean in 1793, 60 tons of load with 4 gun. Captured by the British and recommissioned as HMS Spitfire, wtih 35 to 40 men and 4 3-pounders. 59'4" by 14' by 5'4". Lost with all hands off Saint-Doming in February 1794. (n°2841.1, p.304)
• Convention Nationale : naval schooner, formerly the requisitionned merchantman Marie Antoinette, circa 150 tons of load, 80' by 21'7", 10 4-pounders. As HMS Marie-Antoinette, 187 tons of load, 85.5' by 23' (English feet), 50 men, 10 4-pounder guns. British crew mutined and surrendered her to France in the Carribean in September 1797, later fate unknown. (n°694, p. 109).

Cheers! Rama (talk) 05:27, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

No worries. I appreciate the help. Thanks. Acad Ronin (talk) 15:07, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

Non-Demerliac request

Hi Rama, do you have access to the full-text version of: Petit Thouars, Aristide Aubert du (1937), Petit Thouars: héros d'Aboukir, 1760-1798; lettres et documents inédits. (Paris: Librairie Plon)? Between pages 100 and 103 he discusses Tarleton, of which he was commander in 1783. Using Google books I was able to access snippet views, but that is all. I have done with them what I could, but am concerned that there is more good info that I haven't been able to see. All help is appreciated. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 04:13, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

Hello,

I have looked around to see whether the book is available somewhere, but it seems harder to find than I would have hoped. If I ever run into it I'll let you know. Cheers! Rama (talk) 22:24, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for looking. At least I had some good snippets. Acad Ronin (talk) 22:41, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free image File:Political cartoon about the aircraft carrier 'Charles de Gaulle'.jpg

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You've got mail

Hello, Rama. Please check your email; you've got mail!
It may take a few minutes from the time the email is sent for it to show up in your inbox. You can at any time by removing the {{You've got mail}} or {{ygm}} template.

Acad Ronin (talk) 18:03, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

Loud and clear! Rama (talk) 10:14, 8 June 2017 (UTC)

Great. Let me know where you want to meet. Cheers, Acad Ronin (talk) 16:32, 8 June 2017 (UTC)

Please choose a venue. I am particularly open to ethnic: Viet, Chinese, North African, etc... Given where I live, North African would be the most interesting as except for Moroccan, we don't have it. Should we meet at the hotel though? It might aid recognition. Cheers, Acad Ronin (talk) 17:29, 9 June 2017 (UTC)

Technical WP question

We have an article French ship Vengeur, with a section on privateers. I am thinking of moving that to its own article. I have put the info you just provided there, and would like to figure out a way to link to her directly (but without creating a sub-heading), in the other articles that mention her. That way I can reduce duplication. Any ideas? Acad Ronin (talk) 15:04, 11 July 2017 (UTC)

Hello, and nice work on this one, very common name indeed. I am not aware of an clean way to do what you are thinking of, unfortunately. Maybe link to the article and a note?

Cheers! Rama (talk) 08:33, 12 July 2017 (UTC)

That's what I feared. Thanks. Acad Ronin (talk) 16:12, 17 July 2017 (UTC)

Demerliac requests

Hi Rama,

• Hired armed cutter Active
  • 1801:Victoire
  • 1808:Entreprenant
  • 1808:Lord Keith
  • 1809:St Jago et Erfurt
• HMS Squirrel
  • 1756:Très Vénėrable
  • 1782:Furet
  • 1782:Aimable Manon

Thanks and regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 16:12, 17 July 2017 (UTC)

Hello!

• Victoire: none of the ships I have could match (I checked Victoire and Victorieux/ Victorieuse)
• Entreprenant: privateer from Boulogne commissioned in December 1807 under a Captain Blondin, with 50-60 men and 16 guns. Captured, along with a prize, by HMS Pandora on 13 January 1808 (n°1754, p.244 of 1800-1815).
• Lord Keith: nothing on a Lord Keith or Keith, sorry
• St Jago et Erfurt: no luck
• Très Vénérable: no luck in 1715-1774
• Furet: there is a Furet listed as commissioned in 1781, but Demerliac is unsure whether she even existed (n° 1780, p. 182 of 1774-1792)
• Aimable Manon: no luck.

Somewhat mitigated success this time. Cheers! Rama (talk) 04:29, 20 July 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for your efforts. I have added the info on Entreprenant. I am a little surprised that Demerliac has nothing on the others because sometimes I have gotten the impression that he has used the London Gazette as a source. Well, we will try again soon. Cheers, Acad Ronin (talk) 11:56, 20 July 2017 (UTC)

Very tough one

Hi Rama, is there anything in the French records about a privateer that captured two sloops of the Bengal Pilot Service on 9 November 1797 in Balasore Roads? The two sloops were Trial (or Tryal), and Harrington. Cheers, Acad Ronin (talk) 19:22, 22 July 2017 (UTC)

Ha. I found her. The privateer was Apollon. Now, does Demerliac have anything on her? Cheers, Acad Ronin (talk) 22:50, 22 July 2017 (UTC)

Ha, and Ha again. Apollon's captain was our old friend Jean-François Hodoul. The WP article about him mentions both Harrington and Tryalle. That article could do with some Demerliacing. The list of references does mention Demerliac, but no direct citations. CheersAcad Ronin (talk) 00:07, 23 July 2017 (UTC)

I'll be journeying in the next few days but I'll try and reference this article when I have the Demerliac in reach. Nice sleuthing, as always! Cheers! Rama (talk) 12:54, 23 July 2017 (UTC)

Question

Hi there. I notice you're an admin. I'm not sure if this is the best place to ask you a question of this nature, but I'd appreciate your feedback. What are the guidelines on someone editing my comments on a talk page? Is that permitted? Approaching (talk) 12:46, 23 July 2017 (UTC)

This is normally frowned upon. I hope you can find more people interested in the issue to give more input and hopefully de-escalade the situation. Rama (talk) 12:55, 23 July 2017 (UTC)

Nomination of Yu Hui Tseng for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Yu Hui Tseng is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Yu Hui Tseng until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. DrStrauss talk 22:27, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

Request

Can you please semi-protect the article Deportation of the Crimean Tatars for unregistered users? An anonymous IP keeps inserting a lot of undue weight in the article. If he has questions, he can always try to reach consensus on the talk page before disruptive editing.--Seiya (talk) 16:56, 4 September 2017 (UTC)

Trancrède vs Tancrède

Salut Rama !

Je me suis permis de renommer cet article : French aviso Tancrède (1862), il me semblait qu'il y avait un "r" en trop dans "Trancrède", selon plusieurs sources. Vu que tu as utilisé le Roche, c'est là-dedans qu'il y a une typo ou t'avais juste oublié tes lunettes ? Gonzolito ^Pwet 12:06, 8 September 2017 (UTC)

Salut ! Je vérifierai par acquis de conscience, mais à tous les coups j'ai fait une faute de frappe, effectivement !

Merci et bonne continuation ! Rama (talk) 12:56, 8 September 2017 (UTC)

Demerliac requests

Hi Rama, I am back to doing the occasional HMS vessel. Could you please look at HMS Matilda (1794) and HMS Matilda (1794)? The first has lots of privateers captured, but unfortunately all in the West indies, so there may not be much. The second is a former privateer named Mathilde, but it too was in the West indies. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 01:03, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

Hello,

it will be a few days until I have the Demerliac handy, but I will of course look this up as soon as I do.

Nice to see you back at sea! Cheers! Rama (talk) 11:20, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

PS: you seem to have mentionned Matilda twice, did the second occurrence take the place of another vessel? Rama (talk) 11:21, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

Two HMS Matildas. One in 1794, and the other in 1805. Dumb error. Cheers, Acad Ronin (talk) 12:24, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

Demerliac requests

Hi Rama, I am back to doing the occasional HMS vessel. Could you please look at HMS Matilda (1794) and HMS Matilda (1794)? The first has lots of privateers captured, but unfortunately all in the West indies, so there may not be much. The second is a former privateer named Mathilde, but it too was in the West indies. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 01:03, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

Hello,

it will be a few days until I have the Demerliac handy, but I will of course look this up as soon as I do.

Nice to see you back at sea! Cheers! Rama (talk) 11:20, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

PS: you seem to have mentionned Matilda twice, did the second occurrence take the place of another vessel? Rama (talk) 11:21, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

Two HMS Matildas. One in 1794, and the other in 1805. Dumb error on my part. Cheers, Acad Ronin (talk) 12:24, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

Hello, and sorry for the delay, I did not have the Demerliac handy for a while.

• HMS Matilda (1794)
  • As Jacobine: originally named Bonheur, corvette built from June 1793 by Jean Baudet and Louis and Antoine Crucy, upon plans by Pierre Degay. (p. 78, n°441)
  • Ceres (1798): Céres, privateer commissioned in 1798 in Dunkirk under Georges-Louis Maurancourt, with 110 men and 14 guns. (p. 218, n°1733)
  • Vautour, of 10 guns and 64 men: privateer from Bordeaux commissioned in July 1798 (possibly July 1797), under a Captain Bolle. (p. 272, n°2399)
  • Aigle, of 12 guns and 86 men: Privateer brig commissioned in March 1797 that cruised off Lorient. (p.253, n°2185)
  • Annibale, of 14 guns and 97 men: Annibal, privateer commissioned in Guadeloupe in November 1797. (p.297, n°2739)
  • Etoile, of six guns 53 men: Étoile, 70-tons (of load) privateer commissioned in Nantes in October 1797 under Jacques Auger, with 98 men and 10 guns (2 8-pounders and 8 6-pounders). Under a Captain Chauveau from December 1797 to March 1798. Had 53 men and 6 when catpured. (p.258, n°2244)
  • Intrepid, of 14 guns and 74 men: there was an Intrépide, privateer commissioned in Guadeloupe in march 1798 and captured by the British in October 1798, but is described as a 10-gun ship of 58 men, and reported captured by HMS Lapwing

London Gazette has Lapwing capturing Intrepid in May. Do you have the Demerliac page and number so that I may add them to the Lapwing article? Acad Ronin (talk) 18:47, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

Opps, sorry! p. 300, n°2794. Rama (talk) 19:44, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

Got it. Done. Thanks. Acad Ronin (talk) 19:52, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

• HMS Matilda (1805)
  • As Mathilde: privateer schooner commissioned in Guadeloupe in June 1805, pierced for 20 guns, with 95 men and 10 8-pounders. Demerliac states that the entire crew might have been killed during the capture, I think a misreading of the danger in which the crew was until Lieutenant Pigot intervened. (p.322, n°2751 of 1800-1815).

Cheers! Rama (talk) 13:20, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

Hi Rama, Hope all is well with you, especially along the lines we discussed in Paris. Thanks for all this good info. I will now start to incorporate it in the articles. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 16:34, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

Thank you very much for your kind thoughts. The delay in my answer was in fact caused by by fortunate developments. Cheers! Rama (talk) 18:40, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

I have added the info to the two Mathildas. As for your news, I am delighted to hear it. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 18:48, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

Demerliac requests

Hi Rama, I have just uploaded French corvette Jalouse (1794). There are five privateers of interest, three of which she captured.

Naiade - operating March 1797

Jason - captured February 1799

Fantasie - captured November 1799

Inattendu - captured April 1800

Victoire - operating early 1801

You had mentioned Wikipedia having the best info re Albion. We have the advantage of being able to compare and contrast, particularly from opposing sides of an engagement (see Jalouse vs. Tisiphone for example. Again, thanks for your efforts. Acad Ronin (talk) 02:47, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

Very interesting ship, I'll try to do something about these privateers this evening. Might have a look at this Plucket character, I think this is not the first time I head of him, he might warrant an article. Cheers! Rama (talk) 07:04, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

I just can't stand Gallois. His style, flourishes, exaggerations, and constant calls to hatred give me a headache. Rama (talk) 09:47, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

Nice work on Plucket. It is good to have successful Frenchmen of the era on the English wikipedia. There is a French article, and I assume you have checked if it has anything else. I agree with you re Gallois. His style is painful to read (and try to make sense of in English), and he is sloppy with his chronology. James has some of the same nationalistic tone, but he isn't as over-the-top flamboyant, and he is careful on chronology and detail. Marshall is much calmer. Of course, we are talking about the the beginings of the era of nationalism, so it is not surprising that the authors we read are showing it (often more so than the men they write about). Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 11:37, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

So,

• Naïade (or archaic spelling Nayade): I only have a naval corvette
• Jason: Privateer from Dunkirk, commissioned in 1797 under Pierre-François Sagot with 14 guns and 51 men. Second cruise in 1798 under J-J Seille, and last one in early 1799 under Charles-Adrien Parquet, concluding with her captured by Jalouse. (no 1716, p 217 of 1792-1799)
• Fantasie: 14-gun privateer, home port and captain not known, 60 men. (no 3099, p 323)
• Inattendu: Small privateer with 25 men and 2 guns. (unnumbered, p.337 of 1800-1815)
• Victoire: I have several that could fit the dates; the most likely candidate in my opinion would be a privateer from Dunkirk under Ensign Jean-Louis Fromentin, a 14-gun, 45-ton ship with 60 men (no 1553). The others look smaller and I would not venture to Norway on ships that look more designed for coastal service than for long cruises. I'll try to see if I can cross that with information from my sources on privateers and get a better lead.

Cheers! Rama (talk) 17:28, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

Excellent results. I think you are right on 'Naïade. We have a WP article on her that I believe I wrote, and she is in the same theatre, and of the same force, as Jalouse. I get a sense that during the Republic, the line between privateers and naval vessels became blurred The info on Jason is super. As far as Fantasie and Inattendu are concerned, I suspect that Demerliac's source is the info in the London Gazette. Even so, I have included the Demerliac references as guideposts to future researchers as to available sources. Your assessment of Victoire makes sense. What is the 45 tons, displacement or "of load"? Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 18:11, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

Sorry, of load ("tonneaux").

Yes, the Republic itself commissioned privateers, which is the strict sense of "corsaire de la République": not only privateers during the Republic, but privateers whose shipowner was the Republic. Different rules than naval ships, but you did get quite a lot of back and fro for lower rank officers between these and ships of the Navy proper. Might warrant an article of its own, now that I think of it. Cheers! Rama (talk) 21:07, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

Demerliac requests

Hi Rama, I have just put up HMS Swallow (1795). There are a number of French privateers, but all are small and in the Caribbean so it's not clear that Demerliac will have much additional info. Still. Also, Swallow became a letter of marque whaler and captured two French whalers in 1804 - there may be something in the French records on that. In any case, thanks for the help. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 02:41, 5 September 2016 (UTC)

Hello!

• Molinette : Privateer commissioned in January 1797 in Saint-Domingue with 105 men and 10 guns. (no 2670 p 292)
• Port de Paix : privateer commissioned in February 1797 in Saint-Domingue with 17 men and 2 guns. (no 2680 p 293)
• Général Toussaint Lourverture : privateer commissioned in February 1797 in Saint-Domingue with 50 men and 8 guns. (no 2656 p 291)
• Petite Ressource : privateer commissioned in Le Havre in late 1797. Under Jean-François Bunel with 33 men and 3 to 6 guns, 32 tons of load. (no 1951 p 235)
• Buonaparte : privateer cutter built in Honfleur by Nicolas Loquet and commissioned in Rouen in 1798. 58 tons of load, under Degaule (hmmm...) with 45 to 50 men. Requisitioned from 4 April 1798 to 23 June 1798 with 3 officers and 25 men. (no 1959 p 235)

I'll have a look at the whalers in a moment. Cheers! Rama (talk) 21:45, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

Many thanks: Surprisingly good info, given that they were in the Caribbean. Curious discrepancy between the Molinette that was commissioned and the one that was captured, as far as guns and crew are concerned. As for Degaule, probably not the former president of France, though he was quite an individual and capable of many surprises. Still, a corsaire ancestor? That would be cool. Cheers, Acad Ronin (talk) 22:46, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

I did not include it, but Demerliac does mention captured by Swallow for all these ships, except Buonaparte, at the dates you give, so these are the sames ones we are talking about. I see also that your records give a 5-man crew for Général Toussaint Lourverture, curious whether this is a typo or if she had despatched parties. Cheers! Rama (talk) 06:05, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

Good that Demerliac has the same captor; helps assure that we have the same vessels, though I suspect that everybody is getting their info from the London Gazette. Same with Toussaint. I checked in Schomberg, but same five men. The London Gazette item is simply a list of vessels captured, no letter. It is possible that she ran ashore and her crew fled, only a few men staying on her. This is one of those things that would require a search of Swallow's logbooks, if they even still exist. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 11:51, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

Ah ah, a funny one with your whalers!

• Héros: built in Calcutta in 1797, 267 tons of load. Commissioned by Hyppolite de Longuemare at Le Havre in February 1803. Left Le Havre in late February bound for Walvis Bay. Captured by Swallow.(no 2862, p.331 of 1800-1815)
• Baleine: built in the USA as Hero, 334 tons of load. Commissioned at Le Havre in December 1802 by Hottinger and Co. Departed Le Havre in late December under Reuben Baxter, bound for Walvis Bay. Captured by Swallow.(no 2845, p.330 of 1800-1815)

So Hero could refer to both Héros or Baleine. Cheers! Rama (talk) 18:45, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

I had an even lower expectation that we would find anything about the two whalers than I had about the privateers in the Caribbean, but Demerliac surprised me. I owe him at least a drink. (Actually, I owe you at least a dinner. That is something we can discuss later.) Anyway, I think we now have pretty much all that can be found on Swallow, at least without original research, in our WP article. I am tempted to try my luck on two more whalers shortly. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 23:55, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

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Demerliac

Hi Rama, does Demerliac have anything about the two French naval vessels involved in the Action of 31 May 1796? There are some questions. I doubt that he would have anything more than the official records have, but there is always the hope. Thanks and regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 14:55, 28 September 2016 (UTC)

I'll look into these hopefully this evening. Cheers! Rama (talk) 07:19, 29 September 2016 (UTC)

PS: There would be quite a few things to write on those Chaloupe-canonnières, by the way. Rama (talk) 07:20, 29 September 2016 (UTC)

I know, but I am already getting side-tracked by whalers, slavers, East Indiamen, and convict ships to Australia. Besides, Wikipedia is best when the articles bring together materials information form disparate databases and sources. :-). Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 14:51, 29 September 2016 (UTC)

Hello,

• Génie: merchant tartane incorporated into the Navy in June 1796 and commissioned as a gunboat at Agde (either purchased or requisitionned). (no 948, p. 139) Roche states that she was purchased (p. 223) Everybody seems to believe that she became HMS Venom.
• Numéro Douze: Chaloupe-cannonière no 12, commissioned in 1795. Under Captain Ganivet when destroyed (Roche, p.106) Demerliac states that she was renamed Négligente in May 1795 (no 896, p. 133), but Roche has two no 12, both wrecked near Genoa, so it is not clear wheter they were the same ship.
• Bonne-Mère: No information, sorry
• Vierge de Consolation: No information, sorry
• Jean Baptiste: No information, sorry
• St. Anne de Paix: No information, sorry

Cheers! Rama (talk) 19:41, 29 September 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for this. It does add info. I would have been surprised if there had been any info on the four merchant vessels; such vessels were outside the scope of either the Roche or Demerliac books. The mis-identification of Génie's fate is a puzzle. I have established a clear provenance for HMS Venom (1794) that combines the info in Winfield and Roberts, and Winfield re commander and Caribbean with a brig under that commander's name that was already in service there in 1794. My best guess here is that Nelson or one of his commanders renamed Génie Venom and used her as a tender, of which no other information survives. (I have found other cases of tenders in the Med or in the Caribbean that exist as a sole mention. I have also found at least one case and probably two, of vessels that had careers in other theatres and news of whose existence never made it back to the Admiralty in London.) Later researchers then conflated the two Venoms. With regards to No. 12, I think Roche points to a likely solution: two No. 12s in the theatre, with the second very possibly being commissioned after the loss of the first, or simply her renaming, and then being captured in 1796. I am simply content that we have been able to gather what information is currently available, and provide a starting point and reasonable conjectures for some future researcher. Thanks and regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 23:38, 29 September 2016 (UTC)

Also, do you know how I would go about creating the category:50 most remote islands in the world? I received a little book that lists and describes them and I would like to "honor" them. Acad Ronin (talk) 14:14, 30 September 2016 (UTC)

Simply create an article and add [[category:50 most remote islands in the world]] to it. This will create a red link for the category, which you can edit by adding [[category:remote places]] or something appropriate, and text if you so wish.

Incidentally, this is probably something that would amuse my friends from Wikidata, it is the sort of things that they automate. Cheers! Rama (talk) 14:31, 30 September 2016 (UTC)

I'll do that when I get home tonight. But, what do you mean by "automate"? Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 14:56, 30 September 2016 (UTC)

They have data on things such as islands in a computer-friendly form, so they can request the computer to give a list of the N most remote places, an from there create a map of their emplacements, graphs with their distances to the closest inhabited spots, find correlation in their seasonal hygrometry... your imagination is the limit, basically. Rama (talk) 15:04, 30 September 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for the help. I have created the category Remote islands, and populated it with the 50 mentioned in the book I used as a guide. I am not sure what criteria the author used, but I agree that most are pretty remote by anybody's criteria. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 00:54, 1 October 2016 (UTC)

Hi Rama, do we have anything on a Hyppolite, captured at Ile Bourbon in September 1805 by HMS Duncan? Also, a privateer Emilie captured around the same time near the Seychelles, by Duncan? I am working on a Duncan article and these two are problematic - mixed reports. Two more certain captures are Courier/Courier de Seychelles, and Cacotte. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 02:01, 2 October 2016 (UTC)

Hello, sorry your message momentarily slipped of my mind. Here we are:

• Hyppolite: nothing on her (but I have a submarineHypothalatique, I should try and find more on this one)
• Émilie: I have an Émilie or Émilien: originally a 300-ton of load corvette-like ship built in Bayonne near 1798 or 1799 and commissioned in Bordeaux in 1799 under Captain Emit, with 16 6-pounders (pierced for 18). Upon arrival at Isle de France, recommissioned as a privateer under Étienne Bourgoin. Captured by HMS Albatros on 23 March 1801 and incorporated in the Royal Navy as HMS Trincomalee. (no 2242, p.282) Recaptured in late 1803 and recommissioned as the privateer Émilie or Émilien with 150 men and 16 6-pounders. Recaptured again, either by HMS Culloden on 25 September 1806, or on 10 January 1807 near Machilipatnam by an unknown British cruiser. Reincorporated into the RN as HMS Trincomalee, a 320-ton of load sloop with 121 and 16 6-pounders, 98'3" by 27'9" and 14'. Sold circa 1808. (no 1807 p. 327) If we can fit HMS Duncan into the equation, it would sort out quite a few lose threads.
• Courier/Courier de Seychelles: nothing, probably a very small ship
• Cacotte: nothing, are you sure of the name?

Cheers! Rama (talk) 18:02, 6 October 2016 (UTC)

Vessels in the Indian Ocean are always a problem.

• Émilie: I think we are up against a popular name. I have the Emilie, of c.300 tons and described as slightly larger than Surcouf's Emilie. This Emilie is the one that Duncan captured around November 1805. He manned her as a tender and she captured Courier de Seychelles. There is also a mention of the capture of both in the London Gazette, but it gives no information about dates or anything else. Winfield has two Trincomalees. One was a vessel of obscure origins, Dutch or French, captured in 1799 and destroyed in action that same year in a notable fight. The second Trincomalee was the Emilien that Culloden captured. He describes her as having been launched at Bayonne in 1800 as Gloire, captured by Albatross, and renamed Trincomalee, sold into the mercantile trade, recaptured by the French and renamed Emilien, recaptured by Culloden two months after the privateer had returned to the Indian Ocean, taken in as HMS Emilien, and sold c. 1808. No mention in Winfield of any other contemporaneous Trincomalee. (There is a famous frigate in 1817.) Duncan doesn't seem to fit in this history. Was Bourguin's ship Gloire, Emilie, or Emilien? If I can link Gloire, Trincomalee, and Emilien through Demerliac we will have a nice story, long enough not to be called a stub. The first Trincomalee will have to be listed on a ship index page. There is just not enough about her.
• Courier/Courier de Seychelles: The London Gazette gives her burthen 280 tons. Here I have a little more from a history of the Seychelles that I will add to the Duncan article.
• Cacotte: That was the name in the London Gazette, and is the only info I have. Did you try Cocotte? I think that would be a likely French name easily mistranscribed.

Anyway, thanks for the efforts. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 19:30, 6 October 2016 (UTC)

Hi Rama, I have just completed an article on HMS Trincomalee (1799). She is not the Albatross/Tr'ncomalee/Emilien Trincomalee, but I was able to find enough to make a decent short article because of her fight with Iphigenie in which the two vessels destroyed each other. Do we have anything on Iphigenie? Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 02:26, 7 October 2016 (UTC)

Hello,

Yes, Iphigénie, a privateer corvette based either at Isle de France or at La Réunion, commissioned circa December 1798. She was under Jean-François Malroux du Bac (Malroux rather than Malraux, apparently), with 150 men and 16 to 18 guns, either 6-pounders, 8-pounders, or an asortment of both. She would have born 14 guns and 4 swivel guns during her engagement with Trincomalee (maybe 2 8-pounders, 10 6-pounders, 2 36-pounder obusiers and 4 swivel guns). Iphigénie killed 100 to 115 men when she foundered, with only about 35 survivors. Malroux du Bac drowned, apparently while trying to retrieve documents aboard his ship. (no 2926, p. 310)

Cheers! Rama (talk) 13:56, 7 October 2016 (UTC)

Good info, and I have added it. We now have the most complete info on this Trincomalee, and the action. English records are precise that Emilien, which Culloden captured, had been Trincomalee, which had been Gloire, which Albatross had captured. There is no mention of this Trincomalee having been Emily. Do we have any info on Gloire, or on the possibility that Cacotte was actually Cocotte? Thanks and regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 14:23, 7 October 2016 (UTC)

Hello, I have looked around to see whether Cacotte could be Cocotte, Carotte or anything of the sort, but no luck there.

Gloire was a three-masted ship built in Bayonne circa 1798/1799, and commissioned as an armed merchantman in Bordeaux in 1799 (I think we can envision a corvette-like ship). 300 tons of load and 16 6-pounders. Arrived in Isle de France under Captain Emit in May 1800. Recommssioned as a privateer, under Captain Étienne Bourgoin from August 1800 to March 1801. Captured by HMS Albatross on 23 March 1801 and incorporated into the Royal Navy as HMS Trincomalee, as a 300-ton sloop, 98'3" by 27'9" by 14'. Retaken by the French and renamed Émilie or Émilien. Recaptured by HMS Culloden on 25 September 1806 and sold circa 1808. (no 2405 p.272 of 1792-1799)

There seems to be a rather obvious collision between the stories of Gloire and of Émilie. Incidentally, the Émilie that was under Surcouf is a different ship altogether, although she was also one of these 300-ton privateer-merchantmen from Bordeaux: she was Lafayette until 1793, then Ile de France until 1794, then Modeste until 1795, then Émilie until 1796, then back to Modeste again. She was captured either by HMS Fox circa March 1797, or by Cleopatra in April 1798. (no 2898, p.308).

Cheers! Rama (talk) 19:06, 9 October 2016 (UTC)

Excellent results. That explains the inconsistency between the Emilie/Emilien origins and all the records that refer to Gloire. I wonder if Demerliac some how confounded an Emilie with the later renamed Trincomalee. Anyway, I can now proceed with the article since the one big hole/question mark is settled.

Cacotte will just have to remain a slightly puzzling mystery then. Too bad.

I have two more Demerliac requests that I will put in a new section. I know that you like to auto-archive periodically and I'll try to keep that in mind when I submit my queries so that any one thread doesn't get too long.

New Demerliac request

• Adèle (1800 brig): Some of this was mixed up with another Adèle in the article French brig Adele. I separated the two vessels and wonder if Demerliac has anything on either of them. There is also a third Adèle, of 220 tons, which the British captured at Grand Port in1 1810. The main listing does not mention guns so she was probably a straight merchantman. Again, thanks for the excellent results on Gloire. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 19:39, 9 October 2016 (UTC)
• Bits and pieces
  • Gloire (1799 ship) is up.
  • Do you by any chance remember the mystery about the captor of Cornwallis (1787 ship)? British sources stated that her captor was Esperse, of 22 guns, Captain Le Dane. And we couldn't find any trace of Esperse or Le Dane. By chance I have solved the mystery. A French source states that Cornwallis arrived at Mauritius on 25 January 1797. It reports that she was a prize to Enterprise, Captain Leblond. "All good things come to him who waits."

Hello,

Demerliac mentions Adèle under a Captain Harel, captured by HMS Albatros on 12 November 1800 (no 2795, p.326 of 1800-1815). Seems curiously patchy.

I have an Entreprise based at Ile de France: she is the former Jean Bart, a corvette of 500 tons of load, about 180 men and 20 guns, commissioned in August 1794 and renamed Entreprise circa 1795. She was under François Legars. (no 2908, p. 309 of 1792-1799). I am overjoyed that all our sources seem to agree on the first two letters of his name...

Cheers! Rama (talk) 20:17, 10 October 2016 (UTC)

PS: encourage by your lead, I have just drafted Malartic; would you happen to know what became of her after her capture? Cheers! Rama (talk) 20:36, 10 October 2016 (UTC)

I have added what I could to Malartic. Unfortunately, I have not found the slightest hint of what became of her post-capture. I will continue looking, but I hold out little or no hope. (It doesn't help that General Malartic was alive at this time and important; means that one has to wade through many irrelevant links.) The info on Adèle is questionable. Most sources seem to agree that her commander was Nicholas Surcouf. Interesting re Enterprise. I too have some info that gives her master's name as Legars. I wonder if the Blond Dane was captain of the prize crew. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 03:30, 11 October 2016 (UTC)

Hello,

To clarify, I have not the slightest doubt that Adèle was captained by was Nicholas Surcouf: either Demerliac is alluding to another ship, or she was under a temporary captain after Surcouf had transferred to a prize.

For Gars/Blond/Dane, I often wonder what extent of information is lost simply because the official papers of the time are hand-written. Talking to a specialist of that sort of questions would be very interesting.

Cheers! Rama (talk) 06:13, 11 October 2016 (UTC)

PS: Very impressive improvements to Malartic, many thanks! Rama (talk) 06:28, 11 October 2016 (UTC)

PPS: I am happy to say that a request for funding that I had put forwards before Wikimedia-CH was accepted, allowing me to travel to Rochefort and la Rochelle to photograph the naval and maritime museums there. Rochefort has a subbranch of the Musée national de la Marine, where I know that a number of interesting models are on display.

Hi Rama,

• Congrats on the WP-CH grant. I hope you will look for small boats too: chasse-marees, luggers, chaloupe-cannoniers, galleys, brigs, etc.
• I have some friends that are archivists. I will ask them about the handwriting problem. I think it is a factor, especially in names, which can be idiosyncratic and one can't guess at what the word is from context. In our particular case I think there is different problem. I suspect that items in Lloyd's List, the Gazette de l'Ile d France, and the like may have an element of verbal to written transition. That is, someone just asked someone else "who is the captain of that brig?", and took down the answer. At the time, the crews of many of these vessels were extremely international - essentially mercenary. It is quite possible that the captain of the prize crew, or perhaps even Legars, was a blond Dane, generally referred to as "The Guy", "The Dane", or "The Blond".
• I think there were several Adèles. In addition to Adèle (1799 brig), there was a Jeune Adèle, and there was the later French brig Adèle. There may have been others. Unfortunately, female names are popular for ships. Incidentally, does Demerliac have anything on the later Adèle?
• Glad you liked the build-out on Malartic. I was delighted when I found the estimate of her burthen, and am a little surprised that Demerliac didn't have anything. I did a little more googling, but my google-fu failed me: I couldn't find anything on post-capture. I suspect that she got a name change and stayed in the Indian theatre, but as a merchantman.

Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 14:19, 11 October 2016 (UTC)

Hello,

I have seven Adèle in 1800-1815, but none is reported captured at that time, I assume French brig Adèle is yet another one.

I'll keep an eye open for small units next time I visite one of the museums. The Rochefort expedition is scheduled to take place some time in 2017, but I should visit Paris sooner. I'll let you know if I come up with anything.

Cheers! Rama (talk) 19:14, 11 October 2016 (UTC)

Coureur

Hi Rama, there was a Coureur at the battle of Ile Ronde on 22 October 1794. Winfield and Roberts state that she started as the privateer Duc de Chartres launched at Saint-Malo in 1780, However, Winfield's book about British warships 1714-1792 makes it almost impossible for the Saint-Malo Duc de Chartres to have become Coureur. I have an inquiry out to Roberts, but in the meantime, what does Demerliac say?

Funny, I happened upon Battle of Île Ronde yesterday and I was thinking it would be nice to do Jean Bart and Coureur if at all possible. I'll let you know as soon as I find something. Cheers! Rama (talk) 05:30, 12 October 2016 (UTC)

I just heard back from Rif Winfield. "Further to my quick response earlier, I can verify that these were separate privateer vessels. Please see entries 1777 and 1837 in Demerliac 1774-1792 volume. The one correction to my 1714-1792 volume would be that the brig-sloop captured by the Cumberland was a Le Havre privateer rather than from St Malo." Do you happen to know which vessel is which number? Also, does Demerliac say anything more that I don't already have in French brig Duc de Chartres (1780)? At some point I should do an article on the Le Havre Duc de Chartres which became HMS Duc de Chartres. I may have to move the existing article I just did to "French brig Duc de Chartres (1780 Saint-Malo)", and create the other one under "French brig Duc de Chartres (1780 Le Havre)". The latter won't be along article, but there are some interesting events. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 14:35, 12 October 2016 (UTC)

Hello,

• 1777 (p.182) refers to a Duc de Chartres, privateer from Le Havre of 220 tons of load, under Jean-Baptiste l'Écolier, which HMS Cumberland captured in North America in February 1781.
• 1837 (p.186) was a privateer brig or corvette from Saint-Malo, built between 1779 and April 1780. She was sold to the French Royal Navy in September 1782 and transferred to Ile de France after coperring, and as renamed Coureur in September 1792, with 14 4-pounders and 80 tons of load. She was condemned in March 1798 and is last mentionned in 1801. Her remains we still visible in 1808. (no 496 p. 77)

Cheers! Rama (talk) 17:57, 13 October 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for this. I have prepared the articles:

• French brig Duc de Chartres (1780 Le Havre), and
• French brig Duc de Chartres (1780 Saint-Malo).

Clearly, there are more vessels named Duc de Chartres and at some point I should prepare a listing. Also, if you are aware of anything in French sources that might be added on either vessel, please let me know. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 18:50, 13 October 2016 (UTC)

Levant & Montreal

• Levant - I can find no trace of a 10-gun Levant, or for that matter, any Levant that was captured. Hepper, the most thorough source of British warship losses in the period, has no mention. There was a British frigate at the time, but she was not lost, and she was too big. My best guess is that your Levant was a privateer.
• Montreal - No doubt that Victoire captured her on 1 May 1779 (British records), and that the French took her into service. That is what our existing article says too.

I have to run now but I will check further, and also into Thetis. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 12:06, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

• Levant: One vessel I did find was in the 1778 Lloyd's Register. There was 330 ton, armed merchant vessel named Levant on the Bristol-Dominica run. See: [2] (Seq. №95). However, she appears to have been renamed Elizabeth; She still appears in the 1779 LR, [3]. A second scenario is that Levant was a tender to HMS Levant (1758), perhaps a privateer that Levant captured and then put a crew on. If so, I have found no record of such a vessel.Acad Ronin (talk) 14:08, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

Many thanks for these research! We do tend to look for unusual things. Cheers! Rama (talk) 14:10, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

• Montreal: I have added the info from the English court martial as summarized by Hepper. He also reports that Thetis wrecked almost exactly two years later while trying to enter Santa Lucia bay.Acad Ronin (talk) 01:11, 17 October 2016 (UTC)

Trafalgar Day

Hi Rama, many thanks for the reminder. When I go to dinner tonight with my wife (we always go out on Friday), I will order a rum drink and toast the courage of all the sailors on that day. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 13:59, 21 October 2016 (UTC)

I had a rum and tonic with a slice of lime; I thought that made a pretty good approximation to grog. Cheers, Acad Ronin (talk) 23:41, 21 October 2016 (UTC)

Jean-François Hodoul

Hi Rama, I have almost finished expanding the article Jean-François Hodoul. I got most of the story by translating material from a French website. Unfortunately, they don't give their source, but I suspect that it was Galois. Could you please check to see if what I have is consistent with what he wrote, assuming he wrote anything? Also, any information on Hodoul's vessels would be nice. Thanks, Acad Ronin (talk) 23:28, 22 October 2016 (UTC)

Hello,

Rather strangely, he is not mentionned in my sources are all. I'll have a look are the Demerliac as soon as I have then on hand. Cheers! Rama (talk) 12:27, 25 October 2016 (UTC)

This is the website from which I have gotten most of the Hodoul info http://www.museeciotaden.org/Pages%20C%E9l%E8brit%E9s/hodoul.htm Unfortunately, they don't cite their sources. I was hoping it was from Galois, but apparently not. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 01:31, 27 October 2016 (UTC)

Hi Rama, I have found the key source on Hodoul. It is a paper by PAB Thomson that was published in The Mariner's Mirror in 1997. I will be drawing on it when I get back to Hodoul. Regards, Acad Ronin (talk) 21:33, 5 November 2016 (UTC)

Oh, well done!

I'll be in Paris around next week, I'll keep my eye open for anything we could find interesting in terms of small ships and biographies. Cheers! Rama (talk) 18:32, 6 November 2016 (UTC)