User talk:PritongKandule/Archives/2023/June

photo addition

Hi Pritong

since I'm new to Wikipedia

what is the best way to add a photo

the person I'm writing about has given me a photo to add

thanks

Deb DBeeee (talk) 02:24, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

Make sure to read the entire intro paragraph and follow the steps outlined here: Wikipedia:Uploading images or you can also read this handout for instructions. PritongKandule-✉️📝 02:35, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

Philippines Fraternities and Sororities.

Welcome! I'm an member of Wikipedia:WikiProject Fraternities and Sororities and we sometimes have issues getting references for some of the Fraternities and Sororities in the Philippines. As a note, I'm a member of Alpha Phi Omega (of the United States) and if you are a member of a Fraternity or Sorority, declaring it on your user page would probably help with keeping future issues from occuring. I'll be happy to make you an infobox like mine for Alpha Phi Omega.Naraht (talk) 17:16, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

Hey, Naraht! I am not a member of any Philippine Greek-letter organization, just a writer/researcher with previous work on covering fraternity-related news formerly as a reporter and has written about the fraternity issues (Philippines specific) academically.

Most of my work on the Philippine fraternity articles have been trying to balance publicly available information about their histories and activities with credible news reports about significant controversies. If you also have questions/concerns/clarifications about the topic please don't hesitate to reach out. Thanks! PritongKandule-✉️📝 05:19, 22 June 2023 (UTC)

Great! Anything that has been published in newspapers/books/reliable news sources (What's the newspaper that the government shut down so it only exists on the internet?) There is also a List of hazing deaths in the Philippines that you may want to see whether something has been missed. What also seems to be missing is *any* overall book about the Philippines so that separating Notable from non-notable is easier. For example, a single campus 85 year old fraternity might not be notable, but Alpha Phi Beta is *definitely*. Would like to see more references where the groups are doing the *right* thing, but of course hazing deaths are more likely to be in the news. (And if you have any questions about APO-Phil vs. APO-USA let me know. :) )Naraht (talk) 12:17, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

It's honestly quite difficult, and believe me I've been trying. To start off, we do not have any equivalent of the Baird's Manual like in the United States, so sorting between notable and non-notable is a matter of just knowing the societal context. Many large fraternities have chapters that are unrecognized legally (due to being banned in many fraternities) or are simply unconnected to any tertiary education institution at all.

Some primary sources exist, but can be unreliable since every fraternity is in perpetual competition with one another and tend to overstate their reach, membership, impact and legacy, because who else is going to fact check them?

Academic works on the subject, particularly in sociology, have focused more on the violence aspect simply because it has escalated and gotten out of hand in the last few decades. I remember another member of WP:FRAT asked me about this and unfortunately, outside of some "elite" universities, many fraternities have regressed into little more than street gangs with Greek names (this study by Zarco and Shoemaker outlines it well). This is why I've been interested in opening more discussions on this, as the "rules" that apply to North American fraternities is simply inapplicable in the social contexts of the Philippines. PritongKandule-✉️📝 05:22, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

I'd pay good money (once I'm hired again. :) ) for an equivalent to Baird's Manual for the Philippines. Frankly, for most of them, I'd even take Primary sources, as that at least tells me what they think of things. (Alpha Phi Omega Philippines at least *has* a website, even if it doesn't have everything that I want) Unfortunately, in the absence of these, *all* that is verifiable what ends up in the Inqurirer after a Hazing Death. I'd say there are less than a dozen GLO "families" (counting for example TGF/TGS as one, and Magic 5 as one, I guess) with enough information beyond *that* to put together an article on. IMO, the groups that I've seen the most on that are on *multiple* campuses are Alpha Phi Omega, Alpha Kappa Rho, Upsilon Sigma Phi and Tau Gamma Phi/Sigma and the ones on one or a few campuses, are Scintilla Juria, Sigma Rho and maybe Mu Sigma Phi. Alpha Phi Omega suffers from some of the same splits, but honestly, the fact that there is a physical National Office *and* the fact that APO-USA and the BSP have stayed constant in who they recognize has eliminated most of it. Yes, APO-USA mostly chilled ties after Ferdinand Tabtab's death, but restored them about 15 years after that. (And 99.9% have no idea what Scouts Royale Brotherhood is). And frankly, since 2007, Alpha Phi Omega has had *one* death, and Tau Gamma Phi has had more than a dozen. (I fully admit my NNPOV on APO)

I know that the same rules on wikipedia should not be applied to the GLOs in the Philippines as in the USA, but most of the rules in question are *general* notability rules, not those set by the Fraternities Wikiproject. If there isn't verifiable information, then there is no article. Most of the groups, I can't even find a founding date and location (though there is one that apparently disagrees with themselves as to whether it was founded in 1956 or 1966, I think). (Oddly, the Oblation Run helps with this because while it is a spectacle, it still tends to give accurate information in the media.)

IMO, your actions on Alpha Kappa Rho were just fine. It *may* make sense to slim down the controversies section, as having 2/3 of the article about Illegal activities may be a bit much, but there is a *long* distance between a *discussion* to slim things down and what happened. And there is an ongoing discussion as to whether a founders (who are otherwise non-notable) belong in the fraternity/sorority article, but that's not unique to Alpha Kappa Rho.