User talk:Paul Siebert/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Archive 4

Archive 5

Occupation of the Baltic States

Hi Paul May be there is a better way. How about expanding the Occupation and annexation of the Baltic states by the Soviet Union making that article a summary article of the "Occupation and annexation of the Baltic States" daughter articles. (Igny (talk) 22:51, 1 May 2011 (UTC))

I am not sure other users will agree with that.--Paul Siebert (talk) 02:53, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

Well one of their main arguments for placing the Nazi and Soviet occupations in the same article under that "unifying" title was that some scholars put them together when they built the case of the state continuity. Outside the context of state continuity or outside the context of WW2, it is purely synthesis and just used by certain editors here to draw the parallel between what happened in Baltic republics post WW2 with the Nazi occupation during WW2. I say we have much more ground to have a summary article on the Baltic states under Soviet rule, and it should be titled according to what is called everywhere, which is an annexation. (Igny (talk) 03:31, 2 May 2011 (UTC))

Not my fault the USSR occupied the Baltics first, then Nazi Germany, then the USSR again. One right after the other. That would be the "logic." Best! PЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 01:59, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

Mass Killings under Communism

What exactly are the rules on this page? Can stuff be added without discussion and "consensus"?Jacob Peters (talk) 03:51, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

The rules are very unusual, and they are described on the top of the talk page. To avoid sanctions, I recommend you to address directly to the administrator (Sandstein) who imposed these restrictions. By doing that you (hopefully) will get the most correct information, and will demonstrate your good faith (which may be useful if someone will decide to report you, which is highly likely, taking into account the tensions around the Communism related topics).

Frankly speaking, I would not recommend you to start working on this article right now. Try to edit something more neutral for the beginning.--Paul Siebert (talk) 03:58, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

moving discussion from Sandstein's page

Regarding your first point, there isn't much I can do about that except settle the matter once and for all. Anyways, it's not that relevant to JP, who did far more than just use my old username.

Regarding your second point, it wasn't "two or more years ago" it was something like 10 months ago, and that's just what we know off for sure. And it was far far far more extensive and far far far worse than anything any off-Wiki coordinators did. It was a pattern of serious long term abuse, going on 4 years with not a single sign of regret or contrition. I've supported other people I've disagreed with (recently I supported an appeal by YMB29, [1]), but this here is a different situation in terms of behavior and the scale of disruption.Volunteer Marek (talk) 07:05, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

Frankly speaking, I am not familiar with this story, so I have no opinion of that account. The only thing I know is that the user, who was banned indefinitely for about four years, asked to be unbanned and promised to cardinally change his behaviour. I am inclined to believe that promise was genuine, as well as other promises made by other users who violated policy in the past. At least, I believe in that until the evidence of the opposite have not been provided. Now, when this user can believe using his original username, the non-zero probability exists that he will be much more responsible. With regard to the usage of your old username by JP, he seems to make the same mistake I did: I also used your old name, because I knew you under this name and I initially hadn't realise that you did not want it to be mentioned any more.

--Paul Siebert (talk) 13:13, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

Canvassing

I was just notifying regular editors who had not yet voiced an opinion. Considering the limited scope of notifications, it's hardly canvassing. Quite frankly I don't know who would and would not be in favor of merger. Limited and neutral notification is not canvassing. I was about to notify user:Snowded as well, but I will refrain. Mamalujo (talk) 21:07, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

WP:CANVASS says that "[P]osting messages to groups of users selected on the basis of their known opinions – for example, sending notifications only to those who supported a particular viewpoint in a previous discussion..." is an example of inappropriate behaviour. You selected JM[2] and Collect[3] on the basis of his opinion. That is highly inappropriate. --Paul Siebert (talk) 21:14, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

I notified 2 users, which is limited, my message was neutral - I wasn't campaigning or advocating a position, and finally I don't know what their positions on merger are. And again, I was about to notify one more regular editor at the page, Snowded, who if I recall did not typically agree with the opinions of the other two. I simply though that the regular editors on the page, whatever their opinions, ought to be apprised of the issue. Mamalujo (talk) 21:22, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Taking into account that their position on the discussion's subject is highly predictable, there were no need in non-neutral notifications: the quote provided by me tells nothing about neutrality of the messages posted to the users selected on the basis of their known opinions. Do not be hypocritical, you were campaigning. Of course, that is not a terrible violation, just acknowledge that you violated the rules and refrain from such steps in future.--Paul Siebert (talk) 21:29, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

From WP:CANVASS, when the audience is partisan as it is in this case, that is called "votestacking" (Igny (talk) 00:24, 6 November 2010 (UTC))

Generally speaking I've observed that everyone has an opinion. If you don't agree with it, don't consider it "neutral" ("neutral" meaning not tipping the scales in either direction relative to your own opinion) that does not make that person partisan. As I said, a general observation. I've seen too much conflict over the past (nearly) year based on accusations of who sides with whom instead of simply dealing with the fundamental question of whether reputable sources have been selected and whether they have been represented fairly and accurately. PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 03:19, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

Dear Peters, please, re-read the discussion on the article's talk page and after that tell me if you really believe that the issue is in my disagreement with someone's opinion, or in my or Igny's inability to work with sources? --Paul Siebert (talk) 04:00, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

I'm just making the general statement that everyone is partisan to their own view; contact among those opposing our views is looked upon as canvassing and vote stacking while contact among those who agree with us is collegial informing. The sooner we stick to sources and stop accusing each other of bad faith quoting WP:WHATEVER complete with wikilinks (even if we feel totally justified) the more time we'll spend on content. The corollary is: if someone's position is not borne out by reputable sources represented fairly and accurately, who cares how many people they contact? If an argument doesn't hold water, it doesn't hold water. Can't comment on the article or this case in particular. PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 05:55, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

Frankly speaking, I fully and genuinely agree with all what you say about the importance of the reliable sources. And I am always suspicious about various attempts to count voices not to weight arguments during RfC's, AfD's etc. Unfortunately, that is exactly what closing administrators do, and, therefore, by attracting the attention of your supporters one can win debates even if no fresh arguments have been provided by the persons invited by him. That is the only reason for my objection against canvassing. By the way, have you noticed that I never invite the editors who share my views to work together on articles (I even not speak about invitations to join RfCs)? Moreover, I even disabled my e-mail contact in my account. That was a result of the lessons I drew from the EEML case. From your post I conclude that you also have drawn some important lessons from this case, and I am looking forward to collaborate with you when your topic ban will expire.--Paul Siebert (talk) 14:59, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

I regret that we have not worked together as collaboratively as I hoped given our mutual past experience despite not necessarily agreeing on our editorial or personal views of history. It seems (my perception) that every time a small step forward is taken, you take two steps back making needless disparaging remarks about the deficiencies in the virtue of editors who don't agree with you on your interpretation of sources or events. Personally, I believe you have picked up the tactics of some of the more confrontational editors you have worked with on content over the last year to the detriment of the quality of your work as well as the general collegiality you once maintained despite editorial disagreements. Please don't comment about articles sucking and editors' conduct needing to be examined by the WP community again, such comments are conflagrational, offensive and hurtful—and you know better. It's not enough to remain calm in an argument (per thanks other editors have given you), there is also the need to remain respectful. You and I can exchange comments that my or your viewpoint is personal and not supported by the sources we quote, that is expected in areas of contention. However, your comments escalating the conflict and disparaging editors and putting labels on viewpoints to marginalize them does not fall under the norms of constructive intellectual debate. Best, Pēters PЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 13:50, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

Alternate views on the start of WWII

I have an idea to write this article, but I realy need your help, 'cause English isn't my native language.

• The title of the article. How should it be written the best way?
• The content of article. I'm very familiar with two alternate views, but, of course, there are many of them.
  • WWII started in 23.10.1936 when USSR declared of its intervention to Spanish Civil War. According to Andrey Parshev, since the central conflict of WWII was the struggle between Communism and Fascism, then the first hostilities between two main representatives of these blocs should be considered as the start of WWII. According to Parshev, USSR fought with Fascist bloc for 9 years with 5-month break.
  • WWII started with an Anschluss.
  • WWII started with German invasion of Sudetenland immediately after Munich Agreement. I noticed it in Soviet mid-1950s books.
  • WWII started with the Japanese full-scale invasion of China in 7 July 1937.
  • And so on, I don't know them.
• I can bring the sources and describe "Spanish" and "Czechoslovakian" theory. Will you rewrite these sections with more rich language?

Thanks! --Sambian kitten (talk) 19:58, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

Where are you from? --Sambian kitten (talk) 19:58, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

Try to read the old discussion devoted to this issue first.--Paul Siebert (talk) 20:16, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I read it. And idea of this article came to me exactly after reading :) Idea is to create separate article and describe alternate views. Not for court or something, just for information. --Sambian kitten (talk) 20:23, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

Do you know what a "sandbox" is? Thy to create a draft of such an article in your userspace. You are free to write whatever you want there, provided that it does not violate WP:NFC policy. After that, if would be easier for me to see your point and to assist you (if necessary). It is also necessary to make sure that no similar articles exist on the same subject, because content forking is prohibited in Wikipedia.--Paul Siebert (talk) 20:30, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I'll try it on the next weekend. --Sambian kitten (talk) 05:13, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

If I may provide an observation, you must first show that there is literature devoted to describing the different views. For example, there should be articles with titles like "The debate over the starting date of WWII". Otherwise, the article could become a battleground between supporters of different starting dates. TFD (talk) 20:37, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

Correct.--Paul Siebert (talk) 20:52, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

@TFD: The idea is, just to describe all different views and their argumentation, not to decide which one is true. --Sambian kitten (talk) 03:08, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

If no one has ever written an article on your proposed topic, then it would be considered original research. And you cannot just describe all the different views, because that would imply that they are all equally acceptable, which would violate WP:WEIGHT. You must provide make clear which date is most widely accepted and that should be sourced to a study that compares the different views. TFD (talk) 05:32, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Yes. If there is some dispute in the literature, we can create such an article. However, we cannot combine sources to create a new topic that does not exist in literature. If I remember correct, Overy argued that the WWII started on Dec 7, 1941, because at that moment two local conflicts had been combined together to give a really world war. There is also a viewpoint that the WWII started in Asia in 1937, or even in 1930, however, I am not sure if it is a significant minority view.--Paul Siebert (talk) 05:51, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Consensus seeking behaviour

One reason why I'm scrupulously seeking consensus is that it is the wikipedia way. The other is that most editors on the article know my feelings about the article's worth and use; I wish to make clear before editing that my change is purely and solely technical in nature. Thanks, Fifelfoo (talk) 03:59, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

You are doing a right thing. I'll try to help you if my schedule will allow.--Paul Siebert (talk) 04:12, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Anonymiss Madchen has given you a cookie! Cookies promote WikiLove and hopefully this one has made your day better. You can Spread the "WikiLove" by giving someone else a cookie, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past or a good friend.

To spread the goodness of cookies, you can add {{subst:Cookie}} to someone's talk page with a friendly message, or eat this cookie on the giver's talk page with {{subst:munch}}!

Thanks. I appreciate it.--Paul Siebert (talk) 21:57, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

I'm sorry about the past

I'm sorry about all the unconstructive edits and the name calling. My general attitudes on the subject have changed a lot. I think it's important to note that no matter how many millions of women were raped, however many were innocent, many of them were Nazis, didn't care about what happened to the Jews, silence is consent, and in my personal opinion, I don't care too much about what happened to them. I've been called anti German, which is ridiculous beyond belief, and I'm at the point of assuming that only someone with a Nazi agenda could interpret my philosemitic or anti Nazi actions as anti German, yet I remember to assume good faith. Maybe the realization of how I would have been treated had I lived in eastern Germany caught up with me.

--Jüdischen Deutschen^Talk 22:06, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

You have new messages

Talk:Rape_during_the_occupation_of_Germany

--Anonymiss Madchen 03:33, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

"The Soviet invasion of Yugoslavia"

Serbian President Boris Tadić with Russian President Dmitry Medvedev during the celebrations for the 65th anniversary of the liberation of Belgrade (primarily) by the Soviet military.
According to entire sections of the Draža Mihailović article, Tadić is supposedly thanking Medvedev for the (quote) "Soviet invasion of Serbia".

Hello Mr Siebert. No, the title does not refer to the Soviet invasion that threatened Yugoslavia during the Tito-Stalin split in the late 1940s and early 1950s. I've actually copied down the title of an entire section of the Draža Mihailović article [4]. The section describes how in September 1944 the Soviet Red Army "invaded" Yugoslavia and "occupied" its nothern regions. The idea is, of course, gibberish of the most unbelievable order. Yugoslavia and the USSR were allies and the Red Army entered in accordance with an agreement with the Yugoslav government in order to assist the Yugoslav military in liberating Belgrade, and later left rather peacefully afterwards.

What I'm trying to do is convey the complete detachment from reality we can now see in some Balkans WWII articles, in particular that on Draža Mihailović, the leader of the Serbian WWII nationalist resistance, the Chetniks. You may wonder why such nonsense is not immediately removed? Well, various Balkans nationalist user accounts have succeeded in pushing their own fairy tale history version into Yugoslav WWII military history articles. Frankly, it is difficult for me to express how apalled I am that such completely imaginary history is presented on Wikipedia.

Provided you could spare the time, I'm hoping you might have a look at the article in question as a neutral user and a Wiki-expert on all things WWII. Such complete nonsense is imho a disgrace for the whole of Wikipedia's World War II articles. --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 15:30, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

I'll take that as a no, then.. :P --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 19:18, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

Of course, not "no". Please, take it as I simply have no time to respond in details. Unfortunately, I have had no opportunity to read the article carefully, however, after a brief look the first thing that caught my eye was a terrible English, which reminds me Master Yoda's speech. Maybe, the poor wording is a result of poor writing abilities of the users working on this article and of their poor education? In addition, afaik, "invasion" is more neutral term in English than in Slav languages, and both the prospective Western invasion and the Soviet invasion have been described using the same terminology. In any event, I cannot simply join a discussion with the claim "Support X", because that may result in your accusation in canvassing. I need to look for good sources about this person, and that requires some time.--Paul Siebert (talk) 20:25, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

Right, of course, I would not have it otherwise, I'd assumed you've simply refused. Well anyway, while a "Soviet invasion" might be the term to use for the Soiet entry into Poland, for example, this time we are talking about 1) Soviet troops entering Yugoslavia after formal permission is granted by the Yugoslav authorities, 2) conducting operations almost exclusively restricted to the liberation of the capital city (which is near the border), 3) all operation were conducted jointly and in agreement with the Yugoslav army, 4) the Red Army left Yugoslavia shortly after rendering said assistance, and without any kind of major pillaging and rape. The radical right in Serbia, however, chooses to label these events the "Soviet invasion of Yugoslavia" (without any support in reputable scholarly publications, of course), and this sort of Tolkien history is being pushed and defended on Wikipedia. --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 07:45, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I am also somewhat uncomfortable to read this. However, we must agree that, since we both are not native English speakers, that may be a result of our own perception. The article about D-Day has a title Invasion of Normandy, and that title also does not imply that the Allies enslaved France, and that they did not liberate it. Similar to the Yugoslavian case, Anglo-American troops acted jointly with Free French, and all needed formal permissions have been granted for their actions. I agree that the article need in a lot of work, however, this title is not the most serious problem.--Paul Siebert (talk) 13:16, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Yes, the article's been thoroughly butchered in recent weeks, I'm merely posting this as an example. Where "Invasion of Yugoslavia" differs from "Invasion of Normandy" is in the implication that Yugoslavia and the Soviet Union were at war, whereas Yugoslavia was (at that time, and headed by Tito) probably the only real ally the Soviets had in Eastern Europe, that is to say - completely the opposite. The more accurate analogy imho would be referring to the Allied landings as the "British invasion of France" or "American invasion of France", indeed "invasion of Yugoslavia" makes even less sense since, as far as the Axis was concerned, Yugoslavia did not even exist. This is besides the point, of course, the main issue is that NO reputable sources refer to the Soviet assistance in the liberation of Belgrade as the "Soviet Invasion of Yugoslavia". --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 14:46, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Please review this

I hope that you will see your flawed thinking, and realize that rape is never the victim's fault. Any feelings of the rapist, whether they are a feeling of entitlement, sexual frustration, childhood "trauma," or anger are never excuses and do not change what has been done and should never be considered as minimizing the severity of the crime.

• Stop Rape
• Men Can Stop Rape
• Rape is Never Justified
• Students Active for Ending Rape
• Feminism

I will be praying for you.

--Anonymiss Madchen 02:06, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

Talkback

Hello, Paul Siebert. You have new messages at WP:MCQ.
Message added 04:37, 9 June 2011 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

ww2censor (talk) 04:37, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Request to reword a statement

Paul, in your statement here, you use my real name. While I am obviously not anonymous, I prefer not see my real name used in this context (in reminds me of the hate page that still exists on a certain website, with real names, photos, addresses and such). Could you be so kind as to reword it, by either removing my name or the "ex-EEML member" phrase? Please note that in some corners of this project, the "EEML" is a pretty pejorative term. PS. I appreciate your constructive attitude as seen in that general statement. It is always nice to see that some people can move on. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 22:32, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

I am sorry. I didn't know that you username had any relation to your real name. In addition, let me point your attention at the fact that, although I am trying to carefully avoid any association between the EEML case and any concrete names, I thought the ArbitrationRequestsAmendment page was quite appropriate (and the only appropriate) place to discuss that, because for the users who read this page it is a secret de Polichinelle. In addition, I believed it was important to emphasize the fact that some members of this list have a genuine desire to prevent similar incidents in future (and you have to agree that the policy change you and I advocate would make the existence of EEML senseless, and, accordingly, the sanctions against their members unneeded), and thereby to emphasize your good faith. However, if you feel uncomfortable reading my post (which is, frankly speaking, an absolute surprise for me), feel free to change it, or to propose a concrete change, and I'll change my post accordingly.

Sincerely,

--Paul Siebert (talk) 03:27, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

If you could simply change the use of my signiature to User:Piotrus, or some variant of the coded username, that would be best. Thanks, --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 18:23, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

Done. --Paul Siebert (talk) 19:08, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

Thank you. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 20:33, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

Brusilov Offensive

Hello, Paul. I thought it might be of interest to you since the case reminds that of the Battle of Borodino. There are two conflicting points of view on the outcome of Brusilov Offensive and the numbers of losses from each side. I've attemted to explain the reasons behind the problem at Talk:Brusilov Offensive, but so far the other editors of the article haven't paid attention to it. Perhaps you could help sort the problem out, you seem to have great experience in such matters. GreyHood ^Talk 20:16, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

Yes, that is ridiculous. I'll look at it, although I need some time to find needed sources.

For instance, the source mentioned in the article (John Schindler. Steamrollered in Galicia: The Austro-Hungarian Army and the Brusilov Offensive, 1916War in History 2003 10 (1) 27–59) says:

"Russia’s summer 1916 Galician operation, the noted Brusilov offensive, was one of the most successful efforts of the First World War, resulting in the near-destruction of the Austro-Hungarian Army in the east. However, the causes of Russian success, and particularly of Habsburg defeat, have been little studied and less understood; in particular, ethnic-based disloyalty has always been the explanation for Austro-Hungarian setbacks in mid-1916. However, this article closely examines poor Habsburg battleŽ eld performance, and concludes that serious tactical shortcomings and inadequate leadership, rather than the vexing nationalities’ question, were the true causes of Austro-Hungarian defeat at the hands of Alexei Brusilov’s offensive."

--Paul Siebert (talk) 20:51, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

License tagging for File:Stalin-Hitler.png

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Battle of Berlin casualties

This has come up again. You may want to comment as to the matter. See here: Talk:Battle of Berlin. Cheers, Kierzek (talk) 18:12, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Getting more eyes on the Mihailović article

I was wondering if you had any advice as to what might be the best way to invite more neutral users to the discussion over there? In any case I could use your support in getting the attention of WikiProject MilHist participants. I cannot express how invaluable such involvement would be towards achieving consensus on what has been, without any real justification, probably the longest-lasting single military history debate on Wikipedia. --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 04:28, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

Your revert

Just as I said here, I am very much willing to discuss and work on compromise solutions (and that is what I did in this article), but as soon as another side starts blindly reverting my edits, as you just did [5], I am going to edit something else. You may call it BRD or whatever, but we both know what it is. So, I am leaving this article to you, unless you self-revert. Best wishes, Biophys (talk) 21:44, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

It is BRD, and I see no reason why you feel offended. I disagree with you, I found your arguments and sources unsatisfactory, and I have already explained why. I am ready to re-consider my opinion if better arguments/sources will be presented.--Paul Siebert (talk) 21:50, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

WP:BRD is an essay, not a policy. You may also read Wikipedia:BRD misuse. If you wish to show a spirit of cooperation, do not talk about cooperation. Please make compromise edits (as I did [6]), rather than blindly reverting a series of my edits.Biophys (talk) 22:07, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

Why do you think your edit is compromise? In addition, we are here not to do favour to each other, but to present what reliable source say, and these sources should be reflected according to their weight. If you believe the section is biased, prove that. I am ready to accept your concrete arguments. The reference to Margolin, who seems to be virtually unknown in scientific community, and whose book is hardly a scholarly research, is not an argument.--Paul Siebert (talk) 02:49, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

This conversation should really occur on the talk page. However, I would advise Biophys to follow policy and guidelines in writing articles. We are supposed to use the best available sources and write in a neutral point of view, not use unreliable sources and provide our own interpretations. Bear in mind that having countless articles of this nature will not have any impact on the opinions of readers, except to see Wikipedia as a poor source of information. Eventually these issues will go to noticeboards and waste the time of editors who could be working on improving articles rather than preventing the development of bad ones. TFD (talk) 03:04, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

@Paul. Margolin is "virtually unknown in scientific community" (meaning you?), and therefore his book published in two countries does not qualify as RS? But you also reject a famous research/nonfiction book by a famous Nobel Prize winner [7]. Then how on the Earth can we agree if your personal opinions contradict WP:RS and WP:NPOV policies, and you just revert me on spot? Well, guys, I have had a "nice" round of editing after coming back from my topic ban already, but prefer to do something more important. Best wishes, Biophys (talk) 12:28, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

Solzhenitsyn was awarded a nobel prize in literature "for the ethical force with which he has pursued the indispensable traditions of Russian literature". That does not make him an expert for the article any more than Obama's receipt of a Nobel prize turns him into an oracle. TFD (talk) 17:28, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

Correct. If you obtained a Nobel prize in literature, that give no additional weight to your opinion in other areas, e.g, chemistry, astronomy, medicine, or history. In addition, the fact that someone got a Nobel prize in past does not automatically mean that his works are not obsolete now.

Re Margolin. I meant not myself; look at this, and explain me, please, is a single book of the non-professional historian, whose works have not been mentioned in English literature, sufficient for rewriting the whole section in the manner you did. You presented the views of this author as mainstream, and added that some authors disagree with that. In actuality, what we need to do is exactly opposite: to explain that, although there were no death camps in Stalin's USSR, some authors describe GULAG as the extermination-through-labour camps, and provide a reference to Margolin, Solzhenitsyn, and other ex-GULAG prisoners.

In summary, if you are ready to defend your viewpoint, please, do that (by providing strong arguments and good sources). If not - leave. Moans and complains will not work here.--Paul Siebert (talk) 22:19, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

Clarification

Good day, A request for clarification has been filed with Arbcom relative to a case in which you participated or might be affected by. Communikat (talk) 17:48, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

Meh

[8] That would be more than population of the whole Berlin I believe. Didn't spot that one. Unfortunately Wiki out of my experience is often filled with such falsifications. As open outlet to anyone it is an attractive platform for many fringe groups who otherwise can't get their propaganda presented in mainstream sources.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 23:31, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

That was a direct falsification. The source clearly said about 100,000, and that number was obtained based on the abortion data from one hospital, so even this number is hardly reliable. The procedure (which was based on several dubious assumptions) has been described on the talk page, and now it is in archives. --Paul Siebert (talk) 00:36, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

Discussion moved

I moved the discussion on Talk:Rape during the occupation of Germany because I feel it may have been inappropriate.

You can find it here:

User talk:Anonymiss Madchen/Mentioning that Nazi women got what they deserved (Talk:Rape during the occupation of Germany)

--Anonymiss Madchen 05:04, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

ANI

Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you.

I've reported your repeated genocide denial and attempts to misconstrue those who don't agree with you as racist.

--Anonymiss Madchen 03:47, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

I'm questioning whether I should have done this. Is there any way that I can request that action not be taken if I decide to "forgive" you?

--Anonymiss Madchen 04:01, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

I withdrew my complaint.

--Anonymiss Madchen 05:21, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

I'd like to start over

I'm sorry about being a jerk. It was completely unacceptable for me to act stupid and everything else irrational that I did.

Anonymiss Madchen has given you a cookie! Cookies promote WikiLove and hopefully this one has made your day better. You can Spread the "WikiLove" by giving someone else a cookie, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past or a good friend.

To spread the goodness of cookies, you can add {{subst:Cookie}} to someone's talk page with a friendly message, or eat this cookie on the giver's talk page with {{subst:munch}}!

--Anonymiss Madchen 06:13, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

FYI

In the discussion on Rapes in Germany Biophys deleted a key part of the quote where sources actually connected these rapes with later events, this allowed him to make the claim that the quote has no sources making such connections. I pointed this out here[9]--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 09:39, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

Your second revert without discussion

[10]. Please note that this particular removal of perfectly sourced and relevant text was completely undiscussed. Could you self-revert, please? Are you going to follow and revert me everywhere [11], together with Nanobear [12]? Thanks, Biophys (talk) 04:45, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Please, see the article's talk page. All needed explanations (with sources) have been provided there. Regarding your "Are you going to follow and revert me everywhere?", please, be advised that I started to work on this article earlier that you did.--Paul Siebert (talk) 05:16, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Soviet Union co-belligerent

Paul, I thank you for assuming my action as in good faith. However, you not only removed the SU as a cobelligerent but also the note I put on its belated role as an "Allied" power, note that was 100% consistent with consensus in the talk pages. If France needs a note, so much more the SU demand, begs for one. I assume you removed that in the spur of the moment, as just a global revert. Please do something about this! a globel revert is not enough. it is not historically accurate to have the SU appear as a WW2 belligerent only after 1941, without even a note on where its actions, loyalties and interests were before that time. Thanks! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yamaplos (talk • contribs) 22:27, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Please, see the template talk page.--Paul Siebert (talk) 23:24, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

I was warned about you

I was told before I came here that you were a highly fanatical genocide denier. It won't stand; I will rever every single one of your racist and horrific genocide denial edits.

Genocide Denial Watch (talk) 15:48, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

Some indirect evidences indicate that you and Sasha Krieger are either the same person, or you act in concert. Please familiarise yourself with WP:SOCK and made due conclusions, otherwise you will have serious problems.--Paul Siebert (talk) 16:15, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

Did you just copy that message, in other words, spam my talk page? So suddenly when multiple people disagree with you, they automatically merge into one person? Add to that, disagree with the idea that children deserve to be raped.

Face it, your days of advocating for pedophiles are over. You sent your e-thugs (as named by Alex) after Alex and she decided to get a few friends of her own.

Oh, and I was also warned about you. You and your internet trolls were the reason we were brought it.

Sascha Kreiger (talk) 16:56, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for openly telling that. I responded on your talk page.--Paul Siebert (talk) 17:11, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

Reply to your message

Well no crap we're the same person because this is Sascha Kreiger. Also, I think it's pretty obvious why I would act in concert with Alex and any other people she decided to bring in. She brought us in because you were running a historical revisionist flame war along with your group of e-thugs, and making it impossible for factual and historical edits to the article. I find it very strange that you would bring up sock puppetry when you already know why we're editing the same article.

Sascha Kreiger (talk) 16:50, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

I think Alex had it planned from the beginning to form some sort of group page on a user space page to make it clear that we were working in a group. Possibly having some sort of template on all of our user pages may be a good idea, as I am a wiki sysop for other websites, and I try to do things to minimize the look of conspiracy or sock puppetry. I will remind everyone to keep as much communication as possible on this site, to prevent appearance of sock puppetry or conspiracy. Also, just because you say you don't communicate with other users who come to your defense, highly conveniently, as I have been told, as there are many other ways to communicate off of this website; I keep this in mind when dealing with other users and policy on the websites I administrate.

I think it's important to add that I don't agree with a lot of what Alex says, and that I'm not here to be a robot for her cause. I may consider myself independent from her group for this reason.

Sascha Kreiger (talk) 17:24, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

That is good, Sasha. However, you still need to familiarise yourself with our policy, because your edits and your behaviour violates it.--Paul Siebert (talk) 17:28, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

Why are you so devoted to this?

Why are you so dedicated to exonerating the Russians of horrific war crimes which they committed, and perpetuating anti German propaganda?

--Anonymiss Madchen 17:14, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

Are you going to self-revert? You have 6 hours after your next edit.--Paul Siebert (talk) 17:34, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

To make your life easier, I reverted your edit by myself. Do not repeat this mistake in future.--Paul Siebert (talk) 17:55, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

A pie for you!

Hi, Paul. I’ve created the article “Viktor Zemskov” that you can improve. I suppose we need this article. Psychiatrick (talk) 22:18, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

An apple pie? Thanks, I love it. Regarding Zemskov, I recommend you to keep in mind that, whereas the figures produced by him seems reliable, and they are used by many scholars, some of his conclusions have been contested by others.--Paul Siebert (talk) 22:24, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

Figures presented by Viktor Zemskov seem reliable to me too, and disputes about his conclusions can be described in the article “Viktor Zemskov.” Psychiatrick (talk) 22:51, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

Holodomor fraudulent photos

This is kind of funny things from the area of your editorial interest. This photo draw my attention when it was added to the Soviet Union article. It claims to depict "the corpses of starved peasants" in Kharkiv, however the postures suggest that at least one of those peasants is alive. I've checked the source of this photo and it does say that The provenance of these 'famine' photos is neither claimed nor implied and are shown for comparative academic research purposes. The other article on the same site, called The 'Thomas Walker' Conspiracy (Or the Fraudulent Famine Photo Affair) says all those photos were successfully exposed to be a fraud as long ago as 1935. The 'Thomas Walker' is a false identity of Robert Green who never actually was in Ukraine as far as I understand. So this is one more example of Holodomor hoax photos.

Yet this one and some other 'Thomas Walker' photos are on Commons and used on multiple Wikipedias. I'll remove the photo from the USSR article, but some action must be taken regarding this photo and other Walker photos and their cross-wiki usage. What could you suggest? GreyHood ^Talk 12:16, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

Oh, sorry, seems those photos are from a different set by a different author and I should have read the sources more carefully. However the question remains whether the photos with a characteristic like The provenance of these 'famine' photos is neither claimed nor implied and are shown for comparative academic research purposes might be used without reservations to illustrate the related articles? GreyHood ^Talk 13:25, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

Far left

I wonder if you could comment on martin's interpretation of German text at Talk:Far left.[13] TFD (talk) 02:06, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

Edit summaries

Please do not accuse others of edit warring in edit summaries a you did here [14] when you yourself are on three reverts. You ought respect WP:BRD and not leave the false impression to any passing admin that you were not edit warring yourself. The Last Angry Man (talk) 14:45, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Dear TLAM, the edit war is defined as follows: "An edit war occurs when editors who disagree about the content of a page repeatedly override each other's contributions, rather than trying to resolve the disagreement by discussion.". On the article's talk page I presented my arguments against the edit you made (here), however, you ignored this argument and reverted again [15] without any attempt to address my concern on the talk page. Taking into account that you already made the same reverts in the near past, that editorial pattern is a typical example of an edit war. In future, try to avoid that. Let me also point out that I never do a revert without addressing a reasonable concern expressed by my opponents in edit summaries or on the talk pages.--Paul Siebert (talk) 14:58, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

WP:3RR you are now on four reverts [16] I strongly urge you to self revert, Also I have made use of the talk page, please do not infer that I have not. The Last Angry Man (talk) 15:50, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Yes, you do use the talk page, however, you make you revert ignoring the arguments presented on the talk page in a direct responce to your own request.

As regards to my fourth change, I believe you yourself see that it has been made to remove a self-contradiction in the article's lede. I can temp[orarily self-revert if you insist, however, that your request shakes my belief in your good faith.--Paul Siebert (talk) 16:01, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

The top margin is no more than 20 million

[17] You just wrote this, and it has me confused, are you saying only 20millions died under communist regimes? You also need to write an alternate lede for the RFC. The Last Angry Man (talk) 22:09, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

You are the vehement proponent of the Black Book. Did you read it? Read the Werth's chapter.--Paul Siebert (talk) 22:11, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

PS, given majority of sources say Stalin killed around 15 to 20 millions then how do you conclude that the total for all communist regimes were only 20millions? Mao is estimated to have killed 60millions or more, Pol Pot between 2 and 2.5millions that alone gives a total of 82.5millions high figure for these three alone. Your contention that only some 20millions were killed is belied by these very simple math. The Last Angry Man (talk) 22:17, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Interestingly, I thought I explained that many times. Stalin's policy lead to significant population losses. Part of these losses (a small part) were direct killings (executions and murders). About 1.5 million (or more, I don't remember correctly) were killed in such a way. Others died during deportations, and similar events. A greatest part of the deaths were famine deaths. Although Stalin was totally responsible for these deaths, it would be incorrect to say the he intentionally killed those people (as Hitler was killing Jews). The situation in China is probably the same, although, as far as I understand, the regime was much more brutal there, probably, due to long autocratic traditions. The last case is Cambodia. This case is more clear: it was a direct genocide of rich urban population, part of those were non-Khmer, by poor rural Khmers, whose economic situation was literally desperate before the revolution, and who were driven primarily by the revenge. So we have about 2-3 million of killings sensu strioto in the USSR, I guess, somewhat larger number in China (probably, proportionally to the size of population, or somewhat higher), and 2-3 million in Campuchea. Totally it will be hardly more than 10-20 million killed in the same sense Hitler was killing Jews, Poles, Russians, etc. However, if we take into account all premature deaths, the figures will be higher for the USSR and China, but not for Campuchea: 15 million for the USSR and more than 30 million for China. However, only some authors call these deaths "killings". I believe I explained you the origin of the range.

It is also necessary to note that, according to serious studies, the life expectancy of Soviet population was steadily growing and mortality was steadily declining during the whole Soviet period, so the great famines of 1922, 33 and 46 were more exception than a rule. This growth is partially explained by the same effects that caused the famines, i.e. by industrialisation and urbanisation. --Paul Siebert (talk) 22:37, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

RfC for Holodomor

Qwyrxian suggested RfC and some other measures at Talk:Holodomor. What do you think about that? Given the contradictions and the lack of most important (onto)logical connections (I mean holonymy) in the current version of the article, I wonder whether there is a noticeboard which address logical fallacies and other such stuff. Also, there is an issue with "relief prohibited by state" (as far as I remember, you demonstrated the sources which prove otherwise).

If you agree there is any sense in starting RfC any time soon, we should prepare a short list of contentious points including those above. GreyHood ^Talk 17:38, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

As you can see, I am currently focused with the MKuCR article, which involves mostly the same persons (can you comment on the last discussion there, btw?), so I am not sure I can devote myself fully to Holodomor, but I can try to provide all possible help. If you will start this list somewhere, I'll gladly join.--Paul Siebert (talk) 17:50, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

I was already writing comments there. As for the RfC proposal, I'll try to prepare a short list and few arguments in a day or so. Actually, all is already said for multiple times at Talk:Holodomor. We just need more fresh-minded editors to judge the situation. GreyHood ^Talk 18:01, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Hm, since there is a prospect of mediation I'll wait until the situation is clear.. GreyHood ^Talk 11:09, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

RfC for Mass Killings

Please see my proposed intro. I think we might even be ready to go within the hour if everything goes right. Smallbones (talk) 02:11, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

You did a great job finding refs and sources. Upon meditation, I decided to add some refs to the version1 (mostly from the article), because that would help to the new participants of the RfC to compare these versions more adequately. I will probably modify some wording, so let's open the RfC tomorrow, as we agreed. I'll notify you when I finish, so you have more time to have a look at your version again.--Paul Siebert (talk) 03:20, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

OK, early am is better, but before noon NYT in any case (except on the very unlikely chance that I get stuck somewhere). I do think the intro should be short and to the point. There might be technical problems with 2 reflists, but that can be overcome. Smallbones (talk) 03:28, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

I don't see any problem with having just one reflist, especially taking into account that our references partially coincide. The ref to Valentino I use is already in "your" reflist, so new references I plan to add will appear there too. However, again, I do not see any problem with that.--Paul Siebert (talk) 03:45, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Ready to go? Note that I just changed the intro. Smallbones (talk) 11:29, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

I'll be offline soon for several hours. If we have to wait for both of us to be online, we may not get this done until midnight! I'll check in before I go, so I'll start it up soon. If you think that I've done anything wrong, feel free to remove your signature. Smallbones (talk) 12:12, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Going live. Smallbones (talk) 13:10, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Not yet.--Paul Siebert (talk) 13:39, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Mälksoo

Is the Mälksoo you mentioned on Occupation of the Baltic states this person? [18] And if so do you respect their opinion? The Last Angry Man (talk) 20:41, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

No she is a different person. I am not familiar with her works.--Paul Siebert (talk) 20:43, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

Would you consider her a scholar and a probable reliable source for information? The Last Angry Man (talk) 20:49, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

In each particular case a decision is taken separately. What concrete statement do you mean?--Paul Siebert (talk) 02:59, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

Fair and balanced?

user:collect left a message on my talk page concerning a comment you made regarding mass killings in communist countries. I left a lengthy comment on Collect's talk page[19]. I checked the talk page of the article and see that the thread in question is now closed, so you may not care about my comment. In it I tried to be neutral and fair, as well as constructive. If you do care and take the time to read my comment, let me know if you think I failed in my efforts to be fair to you, and wish me to strikeout or modify anything. Slrubenstein | Talk 10:17, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the note. I know what Jews, Bolshevicks, and Cossacks are and I do get that it is a double oxymoron. I never thought it was an antisemitic remark and I just hope that is clear to anyone who read my note. If it was not clear originally I am pretty sure that edits since then mke it clear. Anyway, good luck with your own work! Slrubenstein | Talk 17:50, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. --Paul Siebert (talk) 18:04, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

1R

You do realize that by changing the lede after reverting me means you have broken the 1r restriction on the artcile? 19:42, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

In my opinion, you are wrong.--Paul Siebert (talk) 01:56, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

TLAM AE

See here. I am sure TLAM would notify others. (Igny (talk) 01:51, 7 October 2011 (UTC))

Imo, that is at least premature.--Paul Siebert (talk) 02:02, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

I am willing to take the chance of no action from the AE admins, I am just fed up with consistently rude and disruptive behavior by TLAM. (Igny (talk) 02:15, 7 October 2011 (UTC))

Mediation Cabal: Request for participation

Dear Paul Siebert: Hello. This is just to let you know that you've been mentioned in the following request at the Mediation Cabal, which is a Wikipedia dispute resolution initiative that resolves disputes by informal mediation.

The request can be found at Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/02 October 2011/Holodomor.

Just so you know, it is entirely your choice whether or not you participate. If you wish to do so, and we'll see what we can do about getting this sorted out. At MedCab we aim to help all involved parties reach a solution and hope you will join in this effort.

If you have any questions relating to this or any other issue needing mediation, you can ask on the case talk page, the MedCab talk page, or you can ask the mediator, Steven Zhang, at their talk page.

MedcabBot (talk) 14:04, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Tag teaming

Do not accuse me in that manner again, thank you. PЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 22:54, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Why?--Paul Siebert (talk)

Because painting any group of editors (group = more than one) who disagree with you as a conspiracy as opposed to each having arrived at disagreeing with you for their own individual reasons and acting independently in disagreement with you is a personal attack. PЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 01:49, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

You and Martin display a similar behaviour (removal of the POV tag despite the fact that most article's POV issues remained unaddressed). In addition, it his last post on the article's talk page Martin accused me in edit-warring (a typical strategy of tag team members, who know that their opponent will exceed the 3R limit first). Therefore, I expect you to demonstrate that you are not tag teaming (taking into account your past history, presumption of innocence does not work here).--Paul Siebert (talk) 02:02, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

There is no justification of retaining the tag if you are not prepared to continue in discussion, it seemed that after no comment from your after two days you had run out of arguments and lost interest, this impression being reinforced by the fact you appeared to have moved on to mediation on the Holodomor article. Knowing that mediation can take months, it is unacceptable to maintain a POV tag while you are elsewhere engaged. --Martin Tammsalu (talk) 05:00, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Two days pause is not an argument. In addition, as I already explained, that issue was just one of several issues. You haven't addressed one of my concerns (see talk); the issue with the first sentence has not been resolved; I see no signs of evolution of the article's language, etc. All of that warrants the tag, and your tag teaming tactics is highly inappropriate in such a situation.--Paul Siebert (talk) 15:35, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Really, "taking into account your past history, presumption of innocence does not work here", as I explained at EEML, I read my personal mail after having already participated by watching pages and checking to see what articles were of interest lately—and categorically did not respond to any emails. Do not engage in such personal attacks again. PЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 01:53, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

There are many different way for off and on-Wiki communications, and many experienced users simply do not need to communicate with each other to act in concert, especially for tag teaming. Let me also remind you that that is my talk page, and it was not me who started this thread. You want my opinion - you get it. --Paul Siebert (talk) 04:18, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

PS As I already explained elsewhere, I found any references to the EEML case redundant and inappropriate, because most ex-EEML members (whom I absolutely respect, although frequently disagree with) had learned due lessons from that incident and abandoned their past tactic. Therefore, my above post has no relation to the overwhelming majority of the ex-EEML members...--Paul Siebert (talk) 04:32, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

PPS It is interesting to learn that you continue to use e-mail for Wikipedia purposes. By contrast, after the EEML story I had disabled my wiki-related e-mail account, so nobody from the Wikipedia community can contact me via e-mail.--Paul Siebert (talk) 04:35, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Yes, if I have a file to share, I do that offline. Your PPS is offensive. PЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 04:12, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

I don't think so. Whereas I have no doubt that you use your e-mail for purely legitimate purposes, I just informed you that I, for example, disabled any possibility to contact me via e-mail, and I did that specifically after the EEML case, and as a result of it. That is just an information, not an advise to do the same.--Paul Siebert (talk) 10:39, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

As the entire planet has my email address, disabling mine makes no difference. I won't ask for your logic on how "interesting" is not innuendo. And (on earlier) recall I "started" this thread to request you cease your personal attacks regarding tag teaming, which you then compounded here with yet another personal attack. Your show of bad faith is discouraging. PЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 15:54, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Re your "I "started" this thread to request you cease your personal attacks regarding tag teaming", you are wrong, and you know that by yourself. It was not me who started this discussion, however, as soon as you started it, let me tell you what I think about you and the EEML team as whole. After all your team had been severely (although deservedly) punished, I totally removed the abbreviation EEML from my active vocabulary (may be, it would be more correct that I stick with the "no ask, not tell" strategy it that respect). Moreover, I sympathised to many of the ex-EEML members, and I am very glad to see that most of them abandoned their old tactic, and, despite serious disagreement with many of them, I respect them very much.

Unfortunately, not all of that can be applied to you and Martin. Being experienced editors, you are perfectly able to observe proper decorum, however, sometimes your behaviour reminds me of the worst days of the EEML story. By emphasising the word "something" I imply that you frequently are prone to dialogue, and such a dialogue is really possible with you. Going back to the example we discuss, I see no explanation for your and Martin's behaviour other than blatant tag teaming tactic. Martin unilaterally removed a POV tag under an absolutely artificial pretext, and without discussion the issue on the talk page. I restored it, and you reverted it back, also without discussion. After my second revert, Martin accused me in edit warring on the talk page, despite a fact that several POV issues raised by me on the talk page had been unresolved, and remain unresolved now. All of that was clearly the preparations for filing ANI request against me, and the question whether you communicated off-wiki or not is of secondary, or even tertiary importance here (I personally am sure you were not communicating off-Wiki. However, taking into account that you are watchlisting the same pages and you perfectly know each other and you share the same views on most EE related historical events, no off-wiki communication is needed in this case). Yes, you observed all possible decorum, however, for it is clear for every reasonable person that you were tag teaming.

Taking into account all said above, I expect you at least to stop your ridiculous posts: I have a very serious ground to suspect you both in tag teaming, and you have no reason to accuse me in that. That is not a personal attack, that is truth.--Paul Siebert (talk) 19:55, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Really, I could just as easily attack you, TFD, Igny and others of tag-teaming or being members of some clique but I refrain from doing so because that is time away from discussion of content. You would do well to consider the same and step away from the hatchet. If you refrain from raising the hatchet, I shall have no need to observe you are holding one. PЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 21:08, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

You should refrain from attacking me for being a member of some clique simply because that is not true. With regard to your advise to step away from the hatchet, I don't think your advise is relevant. I neither rise nor even hold any hatchets, and I do not accuse your in anything. This particular case in not an accusation, it is a statement of fact: you and Martin have been tag teaming in this particular case, although I have to concede that that is not your standard and usual tactic. Do not tag team in future, stick with your usual editorial behaviour, and we will have no such incidents.

BTW, last spring we were discussing the modification of the edit war policy proposed by me, which is directly relevant to this particular case: I proposed to replace "3RR per user" with "3RR per opinion". Interestingly, some of your ex-EEML colleagues (e.g. Piotrus) supported this proposal, although with modifications, however, other ex-EEML members rejected it. --Paul Siebert (talk) 21:41, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Doctor, heal thyself. --Martin Tammsalu (talk) 23:30, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

The moral here is,

• no accusations = time spent on content,
• accusations of any sort of impropriety = acrimonious and massive waste of time and energy.

Let's not spend time on this again. PЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 13:56, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

@ Martin. Glad to see that you show some interest to studies of Bible, although you quote it not accurately. It says "Physician, heal thyself". Your second mistake is more dangerous: you consider every reverts made by more than one user as tag teaming. However, that is not the case. I made two reverts, followed by one Igny's revert, I did no other steps after that, so any accusation of me in tag teaming are absolutely baseless from the point of view of policy letter or spirit. By contrast, your own behaviour is a direct demonstration of the opposite: after making your coordinated reverts, you made a following post on the article's talk page [20], accusing me in edit warring. That ridiculous accusation (whose purpose was quite self-evident) is a typical manner of experienced tag-teaming edit warriors. This, as well as similar examples of your hypocritical behaviour is specific for you, and it distinguish you from other ex-EEML members, whom I sincerely respect. Regretfully, I cannot tell the same about you. --Paul Siebert (talk) 11:19, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

WP:AE#Collect

Thanks for your report. Some notes:

1. The submitter's name is supposed to have the date and time of submission next to it
2. Your report is missing a number of usual headings, including the heading for the Result section
3. The proposed sanctions sound like what Collect is supposed to do anyway, per item 2 of Template:Editnotices/Page/Mass killings under Communist regimes. What is new about this request? Do you just want admins to ask Collect to follow these steps?

It would be helpful if you can address these. Thanks, EdJohnston (talk) 04:45, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for your explanations. I added missing sections. Please, let me know if I missed anything.

Regarding the proposed sanctions, the first problem, as I see it, is persistent refusal of Collect to accept the edit restrictions imposed by Sandstein on the MKuCR article, so the explicit request to follow these rules would be very helpful. In addition, since Collect demonstrates the same editorial behaviour when he works on other Communism related articles, a probability of edit wars would be significantly decreased if Collect had been enforced to observe the same rules in other Communism related articles. In my opinion, that is the only reasonable solution, because short block or even long topic ban will have only temporary effect (and the example of some, very few, ex-EEML members clearly demonstrates that). In addition, I do not think it would be correct to prohibit anti-Communist editors from working on Communism related articles, because that would make these articles less neutral. However, it is quite necessary to force those editors to observe minimal decorum, otherwise it is simply impossible to improve the article's quality.--Paul Siebert (talk) 05:58, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

You made this comment during the RfC, indicating you had decided to revert the lead. It looks like you are shooting yourself in the foot, because this is the same type of violation you are accusing Collect of in the AE. You did not obtain consensus for this revert. EdJohnston (talk) 17:52, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

That is the problem, and I think that its roots are in the ambiguity of Sandstein's edit restrictions. After filing the AE request I realised that literal interpretation of the Sandstein's procedure do not allow reverts, even if the changes that are being reverted have not been supported by consensus. However, that creates several problems. Firstly, that means that virtually every revert of the changes made without consensus should be done via AE mechanism. If we interpret the rule in such a way, then we have to agree that even full protection of the article with subsequent editing via the "editprotect" template would be less awkward procedure. Secondly, whereas Sandstein applied these restrictions, he explicitly noted that the 1RR remained in force, which implies that reverts of inappropriately added materials do not fall under these restrictions. Obviously, if reverts of illegitimately added materials were supposed to be announced at the talk pages 72 hour before they are made it is simply technically impossible to make more than 1 revert per day. In addition, based on my experience with the WWII article, the situation when everyone can revert the change made without proper discussion provide a good opportunity to avoid edit wars. I interpreted the restrictions (their spirit) exactly in this way, and this interpretation seems quite reasonable from the commonsensual point of view, otherwise we would have a ridiculous situation: a group of editors can introduce some disputable edits using, e.g., tag-teaming technique (without obtaining consensus) and then obstruct any attempts to revert the changes referring to the need of consensus for doing that. By the way, that is exactly what we have here: the same editors who added the materials without obtaining consensus are referring to the need of consensus for its removal. That is simply ridiculous.

In connection to that, I think that the Sandstein's restrictions should be clarified, and it should be explained that the edits made with violations of the Sandstein's procedure are tantamount to vandalism, and therefore can be reverted by anyone.

Regarding "shooting yourself in the foot", I do not see any problem with that even if we interpret the Sandstein's procedure literally: the article currently contains no my edits that have been made in violation of this procedure, and I cannot self-revert even if I wanted to do that. Therefore, any action against me would be purely punitive, which is not in accordance with our policy.--Paul Siebert (talk) 19:25, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

PS. In addition, one has to keep in mind that the situation here is opposite to the standard 3RR or 1RR edit war: in the latter case the sanctions are usually imposed on the user who exceeded the 3RR limit first, because first three reverts are not a violation of the policy letter. By contrast, in this case (undiscussed edit - revert) the sanctions are supposed to be applied on the user who made the first edit, because it is the first edit that is a violation, so the second user acts in response, and, from commonsensual point of view is doing a right thing (restores the status quo before the violation). It our case this user is TLAM. However, it would be incorrect to apply any sanctions against him, because his edits have been reverted and he didn't restore them (in other words, such sanctions would be purely punitive). Therefore, the only person that should be sanctioned is Collect, who restored the undiscussed edits and refused to self-revert.--Paul Siebert (talk) 19:41, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

• Question As my name is being bandied around am I allowed to comment on the matter? As PS has made an error in the timeline of this rather sorry saga. The Last Angry Man (talk) 20:57, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

In my opinion, you are definitely allowed to comment. However, if someone will decide to report you for that we can present that as our private conversation unrelated to the subject of your topic ban.--Paul Siebert (talk) 21:26, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

• Note this my edit Paul, I believe it is important. GreyHood ^Talk 23:51, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. I totally agree.--Paul Siebert (talk) 00:01, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

Mihailović: Draft for new section on "Collaboration"

During the Mihailović mediation, we agreed to discuss two additional topics on the article talk page: 1) Ethnic conflict and terror tactics, and, 2) Collaboration. The former was completed some time ago. Nuujinn has now drafted a proposed section on the latter subject. I am contacting mediation participants, and others who commented on the article talk page post mediation, to see if they wish to comment. The draft can be found here. Any comments would be most appreciated. Sunray (talk) 23:49, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

Russian WWII images

You need to know this: commons:Commons:RIA Novosti. If you read Russian, than you may be interested in this too: wmru:«РИА Новости» на свой день рождения сделали подарок «Википедии». They have uploaded quite a number of cool WWII-era images already, see commons:Category:Images from RIA Novosti. I can see some iconic photos there... They are going to upload up to 800 images, so more pictures are to follow. GreyHood ^Talk 00:08, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

Great! Thank you very much!--Paul Siebert (talk) 00:14, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

Wow, I've just noticed this line: "It's possible to make a request for a photo from the archive on the wmru:Проект:Архивы/Visualrian." Might be useful. Someone even requested the picture of the flag over Reichstag already, though not Khaldei's one. GreyHood ^Talk 00:56, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

I didn't understand that. Do you mean that we can make a request to release some concrete photos in PD under CC? --Paul Siebert (talk) 01:01, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I think so. We may request to release some concrete photo under CC license from the RIAN archive. For example, the images from 1940s are here. Worth trying to choose some, then add the links to them to the second column in wmru:Проект:Архивы/Visualrian (there is a section devoted to the great Patriotic War), and add the name of the article (or articles) which you want to illustrate to the first column. GreyHood ^Talk 14:15, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

I've added three photos for the beginning. Does it mean that I can expect that they will appear in Commons soon?--Paul Siebert (talk) 17:24, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

I hope so. Here and in various media articles it is written, that up to the end of 2011 they'll upload up to 800 "historical" (историческая тематика) images on Commons. Likely they will do it in large blocks, periodically. I'm not sure, but from the talk page of the project it seems that RIAN wants to make new releases of images on some historical dates, in order to make press releases about new image releases on these dates. Since 22 June has passed already (the date of the first release), I believe that the next major WWII-related dates are 70th anniversaries of the start of the Siege of Leningrad and the Battle of Moscow. Also, people on that talk page write that since there will be more than 800 requests (there are more than 600 already), they will have to sort them so that to receive the most important and valuable images. I hope that WWII images will get high priority. GreyHood ^Talk 18:21, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

An additional set of WWII photographs was uploaded in October: commons:Commons:RIA Novosti/Battle for Moscow. It looks like RIA Novosti might continue uploading new sets of images on anniversaries of major WWII battles, so in 3.5 years they might reach Berlin ). They've also uploaded some other sets related to the Soviet Union. Here are all RIAN images, WWII, Battle of Moscow, Komsomol-related stuff, Nuclear industry, 1980 Summer Olympics. GreyHood ^Talk 13:06, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

Great. Thank you.--Paul Siebert (talk) 03:56, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

I'm sorry about the way that I and my friends treated you

I know this is the second time I'm saying this, but I've really seen what a jerk I was and how I told my friends a very one sided story about you. --Anonymiss Madchen 16:47, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

No problem.--Paul Siebert (talk) 17:41, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

Someone was impersonating you

Did you ever register an account called Tommygun on a wiki about World War II? --Anonymiss Madchen 16:38, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

No.--Paul Siebert (talk) 17:41, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

I suspected that. The person who did it even mentioned on another wiki which we run that he was going to go to our WWII wiki to spread libel there. Thanks. --Anonymiss Madchen 17:59, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

User:Udibi

He recently pushed for a revisionist analysis at Rape during the occupation of Germany. I left a reply to one of his comments. --Anonymiss Madchen 18:56, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

ANI discussion regarding a user from Rape during the occupation of Germany

Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you.

--Anonyma Madel 22:41, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

I understand your emotions, however, I think your ANI report is at least premature. You definitely need to be more patient.--Paul Siebert (talk) 01:40, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Please see

User_talk:EdJohnston#User:Paul_Siebert_at_Talk:Mass_killings_under_Communist_regimes

Smallbones (talk) 14:13, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Happy Thanksgiving.--Paul Siebert (talk) 14:44, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Unacceptable

This personal attack is unacceptable. PЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 23:49, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Which concrete person has been attacked by me in this my post? Maybe, you deny the fact that the EEML cabal actively participated in early AfDs?--Paul Siebert (talk) 23:57, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

You invoke EEML, you refer to me. There is nothing "impersonal" about it. Period. Considering the so-called "findings" against me were a lie, I strongly suggest you deal with content and not resurrecting past conflicts. PЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 03:23, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

I didn't refer to you neither directly nor indirectly.

You also should remember, that I did not participate in the discussion of sanctions against your cabal when the EEML case had been open.

I even refused to read the EEML e-mail archive, despite the fact that some users pointed my attention at the fact that your cabal had been contemplating the actions against me (which failed simply because you appeared to be unable to do anything).

As far as I understand, I could learn something from your e-mails that could add more evidences against your cabal during the AE discussion, but I preferred not to do so.

However, can you explain me, please, why the fact that you had served a long topic ban nullifies all misdeeds your cabal committed in the past? Why do you believe that I cannot refer to this cabal (without calling concrete names) when it is appropriate?

Regards, --Paul Siebert (talk) 04:44, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

"EEML" refers to myself, regardless of whether you believe that is direct or indirect, I am a member of that collection. You refer to the whole, you refer to its parts. You propagate the meme that on-Wiki actions taken by a collection of editors (who, I should add were in no manner unified as to their individual POVs) reflect an organized attempt to propagate an editorial POV which would otherwise not succeed in the open, hence the need for a conspiracy (includes myself): that is false; also, that certain on-Wiki actions succeeded or failed owing to said conspiracy (includes myself): that is also false. Had my ban been for simply discussing WP off-Wiki, I would have respected that decision. That it was based on findings which called me a liar is equally deserving of my disrespect. I've already apologized for the group having been sucked down the WP rathole, that was neither its original intent nor my purpose in participating, no actions are being "nullified."

Please feel free to point to any edit by anyone on the EEML list which is not entirely consistent with edits before or after the existence of said list and which is not based on reputable sources or a fair representation thereof. If you find what you believe constitutes such an edit, I will be glad to discuss and defend its merits with you.

In the meantime, bringing up the EEML "cabal" as the reason for your or others' personal failings in editorial persuasion is resorting to name-calling discussing the editor, not the edit. Don't discuss the editor again if you wish to continue to represent yourself in any manner as discussing content in good faith. PЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 17:42, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

WP:EEML refers to a group of users, who, using massive canvassing, as well as other similar tools, affected outcomes of the consensus building process in various EE related articles. This refers to a long list of users, and I concede you had been its active member. I do not know the details of the MKuCR campaign, however, since the e-mail archive can be easily found on the Internet, I can try and read it (a step a user Viritidas suggested me to do from the very beginning). By the way, I was told I myself had been a subject of your discussion, so it would be, probably useful for me to learn about the details of what concretely did you contemplate against me.

Therefore, if you want to develop this theme, please, give me a time to find your archive and familiarise myself with it. However, if you prefer not to develop this theme further, just stop it.--Paul Siebert (talk) 19:24, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Hi Paul. Even if you talk about users who were sanctioned in this case, there is no mailing list for two years. Does not it belong to WP:STICK? Would not you agree not to blame people of belonging to "EEML cabal" anywhere? Biophys (talk) 00:59, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

You are right. There is no list for two years. However, since some users repeatedly return to the past AfDs, some of which took place during the period of the EEML activity, I believe to mention EEML was quite correct.--Paul Siebert (talk) 01:26, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Paul, I did not bring up EEML, you did. As for your characterization here, unfortunately the vast majority of correspondence had nothing to do with Wikipedia, so to say EEML conducted "massive cancvassing" is a gross overstatement since no one offered an editorial position or participated any different than they would otherwise and by already watching 100's of articles. Certainly, I did not. Where you and I are concerned, I believe my only comment (ever) was that I was disturbed by your habit of quoting Soviet archives as if the "AMEN" in church. Please do stop beating about with the WP:EEML stick, it serves no useful purpose other than to generate antagonism.

As for Viriditas, he and I have long since buried the hatchet, I rather suspect his advice to you was in the heat of the moment during which he was alleging another conspiracy on the part of some EEML members, myself in particular. Certainly the level of acrimony between you and I of late pales by comparison, yet Viriditas and I made peace and moved on. All you are accomplishing at the moment is to make me deeply regret to abide by ArbCom's ruling and topic ban pursuant to findings which, regarding myself, were not factual. Let's agree not to pursue past history further.

(post "ec") As for past AfD's, the participants, the votes, and the results would have been the same, EEML list or no EEML list. The sooner you believe that the sooner we can resume debate in good faith. PЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 01:50, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

What Paul tells is actually this :"I'll approach to that seriously, and the article will be deleted, either by normal AfD or by arbitration". Yes, he can do it. He only should not mention EEML, and you should not react. But this is only my suggestion. You people do whatever you want. Biophys (talk) 02:04, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

If you don't mind, I'll speak for myself. During the MKuCR talk page discussions, some users frequently resort to this argument: "don't change the text of the article; it survived 5 AfDs, which means that the current text is supported by community". However, this argument is false for several reasons. Firstly, early AfDs took place during the EEML era, so their outcomes (the most likely) were affected by EEML canvassing. In connection to that, only recent AfDs can be used as the arguments. Secondly, during recent AfDs I did not support the idea to delete the article, which also could affect their outcomes. Thirdly, failure of an AfD means that the community believes that the topic is notable, however, that tells nothing about the article's quality. That were the points I wanted to make when I referred to EEML. I do find the reference to EEML quite relevant here (because we discuss the past events, not recent behaviour of ex-EEML members), and I do not find Peters' post appropriate.

Regarding the Biophys' quote, please, read my MKuCR posts carefully, and do not cite me selectively. My major point was that, since the analysis of the sources demonstrated that most sources used by anti-Communist users are garbage, the POV issues with the MKuCR article are much more severe than I thought initially. Therefore, it should either be rewritten (my first choice) or, if that will appear to be impossible, deleted (my second choice). If the events will develop according the the second scenario, "I'll approach to that seriously, and the article will be deleted, either by normal AfD or by arbitration". How can you work with sources, Biophys, if you cannot avoid selective quotation even when you deal with my posts?--Paul Siebert (talk) 02:52, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

Re "As for past AfD's, the participants, the votes, and the results would have been the same, EEML list or no EEML list." I never tried to question that obvious fact. However, in this case, we have to speak about just two or three AfDs, not five. And, remember, the situation changed since those times. Now I changed my opinion, and I believe that, under some circumstances, the article may deserve deletion. If the situation will require deletion, I believe, I'll be able to provide exhaustive evidences in support of that. However, again, I still hope that we will be able to resolve the issue without any AfDs.

Regarding burying the hatchet, frankly speaking, I have an impression that your behaviour has become more combative during last year (despite your peaceful phraseology). I suggest you to think about that. With regard to myself, I am always open for collaboration.--Paul Siebert (talk) 03:28, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict) @Paul: I've explained that MKuCR past votes were not materially affected. There are new editors to the topic who equally disagree that the only solutions to the article are either of yours (rewrite to your liking or eliminate), so let's keep that conversation there and in the present. Dredging up the past contending it is of material consequence to the present will only poison the atmosphere. If I am to take your participation elsewhere regarding conflict resolution (Holdomor, mediation) in good faith, that good faith must have the ability to apply to all our interactions.

BTW, I am not more combative, I simply object to abuse and relitigation of the past. Those are the lessons Wikipedia has taught me. I find you more strident in your defense of the Soviet legacy since the year of my absence from the topic area, as if your collaboration with some more radical editors has rubbed off somehow. Our mutual perceptions are informative but, equally, meaningless as collaboration is the only meaningful option. PЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 03:38, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

No "more strident in your defense of the Soviet legacy", please. I see the issue totally differently. Whereas I am not a professional historian, my university provides me with an access to a large amount of scholarly literature. Upon having read these sources I realised how deep is an abyss that yawns between the sources available for lay public and the sources written by scholars and published in peer-reviewed journals. They treat many subject quite differently. Accordingly, the authors, who are popular among lay people are not always regarded as serious scholars by peers, and vise versa. Concretely, whereas the authors like Rummel are being widely cited in popular literature, they appear to be almost totally ignored by the scholars who write about Stalin's repressions or Great Leap Forward famine. Therefore, you see a conflict from the absolutely wrong point of view: it is not a conflict between me (as a defender of the Soviet legacy) and you (as an opponent of the advocacy of Communism), it is a conflict between two visions of Wikipedia: (1) Wikipedia written for lay people based on questionable quality sources that amplify common stereotypes, or (2) Wikipedia written based on the best quality secondary sources that educate lay people. My choice is No 2.

BTW, to call me a defender of Soviet legacy is somewhat insulting. By making this statement you refuted your own major thesis, namely, that you have abandoned your combative behaviour.--Paul Siebert (talk) 04:03, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

You guys simply should not battle for years around the same articles. There are lots of other articles in a really poor shape. Sourcing them to any books that qualify as RS would be a blessing. Biophys (talk) 06:04, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict) @Biophys: I agree we are both better off debating sources and thank you for your words of wisdom here. I would disagree a bit, perhaps, on the disengaging as I still have faith that Paul and I can come to mutual agreement as ours is, at the end, still a conversation driven by sources and their interpretation and not by unsourced personal opinion.

@Paul: I do completely agree there is a dichotomy in sources where the legacy of Communism is concerned—apologist at one extreme, utter condemnation at the other. However, I see that dichotomy in both sources written for the masses and in sources written for academia. So, with regard to reputable sources and a range of opinions, I advocate for inclusion of all reliable and relevant while, at times, your advocating for inclusion of the "best" would require elimination from articles of sources which do not fit your editorial POV. I am not calling you anything; I am giving you my honest feedback that something changed over the year we were not constructively engaged (that was my sentiment despite our disagreements) so that we might better appreciate each others' positions informed by an awareness of how we currently come across to each other. And so I take it as honest feedback that you find mine more combative than in the past. Collectively, we appear to believe the other has hardened their positions on topics, so it's all the more important we be mindful of how we come across and set an example to debate only on the sources and their representation in inclusion. (And so, to my original complaint, requesting we not get stuck in the past—we already know what that looks like and I have no desire to return to it; unfortunately, every mention of EEML in current debate effectively re-litigates the past and opens old wounds across the board.) PЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 16:01, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

The division is not between "apologists" and "condemnation", but between poorly written, inaccurate sources that provide dramatically oversimplified view (popular among lay readers), and well written sources that take into account all aspects of the issue they discuss.

The mention of EEML is relevant to the discussion of some past events, and I do not see why I cannot refer to it when it is appropriate.--Paul Siebert (talk) 16:35, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

Well, we will have to agree to disagree on both points in the area of contentious subjects. We are not scholars reviewing the work of others; as long as sources are out in the literature and widely cited, which is the more true is not up to us to decide. WP policy explicitly states that the ultimate WP:TRUE of a source is irrelevant, only that it is deemed reputable and reliable. Conquest, for example, falls into that category. There are, of course, blatantly unreliable and inaccurate sources; but those fall into the realm of propaganda, not scholarship. Picking and choosing sources, thereby creating a particular POV, runs against proper writing about history, which writing should be inclusive of reliable and reputable sources, past and present. Nor am I advocating you should leave out what these sources might state about each other; rather, just the opposite: that such dialog should be represented IN the article; it is not dialog OUTSIDE the article to decide which sources to promote and which sources to censor.

On EEML, you can choose to believe that it materially affected past outcomes. Should you follow a past path of nominating particular articles or genres of content for deletion, etc., the results will not change. I see no point to bringing up EEML other than to generate sympathy for your editorial viewpoint (i.e., editors of your viewpoint were in the editorial right but were stymied, stonewalled, and had their proper content suppressed by a nationalist cabal). I would think you would wish to pursue more constructive, non-antagonistic, avenues. The choice is yours, of course. PЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 18:13, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

You are totally wrong: we can review the works of others. Our policy forbids us just to publish our original research. However, we are free to analyze the sources for professional structure in place for checking or analyzing facts, legal issues, evidence, and arguments, and to chose those sources that meet RS criteria better. Any attempt to present a garbage source (for instance, highly criticise essay with no references) as having greater weight than a good quality peer-reviewed article go against our policies.

Regarding EEML, if you believe it should not be mentioned, don't do that. With regard to myself, let me make decision in each separate cake separately.--Paul Siebert (talk) 20:31, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

We both know that neither of us is going to bring a garbage source to the table. As for high criticism, there's a wide latitude in literature on particular subjects, e.g., Holodomor, so such criticism rightly belongs in the article and not in a discussion regarding the preemptive exclusion of resources. If you wish to play the EEML card, I would request you include what specific interpretation(s) of what specific source(s) you believe was/were erroneous in each case where you allege the so-called cabal acted against fair and accurate representation of reputable, reliable sources. That will avoid constructs of "XYZ failed because of the cabal" which make accusations without providing the substance upon which the accusation is based and therefore comprise a personal attack, which is what I objected to. I trust that explains the completely valid basis for my objection. PЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 20:50, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Well, look at my criticism of the Black Book of Communism (its introduction) as a source for figures. That is only a part of well sourced criticism. Obviously, the fact that noone was able to counterpose anything to that is a clear indication this source is garbage for the statement about universally accepted range of estimates of mass killings. I am sure that all participants of the discussion have read that, and, judging by the absence of the answers, they have nothing to argue. Nevertheless, those who concinue to resist against the removel of those figures knowledgeably support a garbage source. Therefore, a claim that we "both know that neither of us is going to bring a garbage source to the table" is an exaggeration.

In connection to that, I suggest you Peters to do one step that will convince me in your good faith. As a person responsible for addition of those figures to the article (to the footnote), try to convince other users to remove this source and the figures as seriously contested, and to add it to the article's body, along with needed criticism. If you will be successful (and I know that you can be persuasive when you want), I will accept your thesis that "neither of us is going to bring a garbage source to the table." However, for now, sorry, I respectfully disagree. --Paul Siebert (talk) 22:25, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

You may provide, if you wish, some sourced criticism of the statements about the BB's figures. If you will convince me that I was wrong, I'll withdraw my above statement. However, if you have nothing to argue (with sources) and still find this my proposal unacceptable, I see no value in further discussion. --Paul Siebert (talk) 22:39, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

1. The BB figures were already in the article, I only documented the footnote for editorial transparency. I found your subsequent threats to report me for enforcement when not one iota of article narrative itself was changed both inappropriate and unnecessarily combative.
2. The BB is listed as a reference by a highly respected genocide scholar, whose latest text has gotten glowing reviews regarding his scholarship. See this comprehensive bibliography. "Stéphane Courtois et al., The Black Book of Communism: Crimes, Terror, Repression. Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press, 1999. Massive indictment of communist regimes; includes Nicolas Werth's study of the USSR, 'A State against Its People.'" Done, BB stays.
3. Writing about history requires inclusion of resources, not exclusion, and then explaining what is the same, what is different. Until you come to appreciate that, your attempts at crafting historical narrative will diverge from, not converge to, a solution achieving consensus. PЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 02:07, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

Re 1. You violated the Saidstein's edit restrictions, and had I reported you immediately after that (instead of futile attempts to persuade you), you would be either blocked or topic banned. So, instead of typing this nonsense you should appreciate my generosity.

Re 2. The BB has been listed because of Werth's section; as I've already explained, Werths criticized Courtois for his figures, so your argument is totally irrelevant.

Re 3. This is a pure hypocrisy. By adding Courtois figures you implied that they reflect consensus. That means that all sources that disagree with Courtois have been left beyond the scope. I would say, it is my version that is inclusionist: remove all disputable (and disputed) claims from the lede and add them to the article's body (where it can be properly discusses).

One way or the another, I have to concede that our discussion will not lead to anything useful. May I ask you to stop posting on my talk page (unless you will find some reliable peer-reviewed sources that refute my viewpoint)? You are welcome to make posts regarding other issues, however, this discussion has no perspective.--Paul Siebert (talk) 03:05, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

I agree we're not going to achieve consensus here. (1) As I added transparency, not content, no violation. (2) Your interpretation of why it's listed, the entire BB is the "massive indictment". (3) You can't be "inclusionist" and follow by "anything that anyone disputes anywhere is removed", there will ALWAYS be disputes on contentious topics. It is not up to us as editors to resolve those disputes, only to document them.

Well, we might not have made progress, but if anyone passes by, perhaps they will find our dialog informative even if we feel like we're finishing up where we started. Best, PЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 04:25, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

Your straw man fallacy is a demonstration the reason why consensus has not been achieved: you accuse me in adherence to the "anything that anyone disputes anywhere is removed" paradigm, despite the fact that I clearly wrote that the solution I propose is "remove all disputable (and disputed) claims from the lede and add them to the article's body". I again respectlully request you to stop this discussion, because it will lead to nothing useful, and I don't want my talk page to be spammed with demagogy, nonsense or straw man argumentation.--Paul Siebert (talk) 04:58, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

Mediation Cabal: Case update

Dear Paul Siebert/Archive 2: Hello, this is to let you know that a Mediation Cabal case that you are involved in, or have some connection with:

Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/02 October 2011/Holodomor

is currently inactive as it has not been edited in at least a week. If the issues in the case have been resolved, please let us know on our talk page so we can close the case. If there are still issues that need to be addressed, let us know. If your mediator has become inactive, also let us know. The case will be closed in one month if it remains inactive. You can let us know what's going on by sending a message through to your mediator, Steven Zhang, on their talk page. Thanks! MedcabBot (talk) 12:18, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

Clean Wehrmacht myth

Would you be interested in assisting in creating a Clean Wehrmacht myth article?

I created some basic start, and would welcome any contribution. [21] --MyMoloboaccount (talk) 11:54, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

I need to look in the literature if the topic is notable. I found few books on that subject, but I haven't read them yet.--Paul Siebert (talk) 04:58, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Why Holodomor is used only for Ukraine's famine?

Why term Holodomor is used only for Ukraine's famine? We use the same term in Southern Russia for what had happened there in the 30s. The famine there was just as bad as it was in Ukraine. I guess when our right to use this Russian/Ukrainian term is rejected, the implication is that ethnic Ukrainians somehow suffered more than the ethnic Cossacks in Southern Russia (population decline of roughly 30%) or ethnic Germans in Southern Russia (population decline of roughly 30%) during Holodomor. And yes Cossacks are now a recognized ethnicity, just like Pomors, and have been recognized as such in Population Census years 1926, 2000, 2010. With best wishes for the holidays. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.7.203.19 (talk) 23:05, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

Mediation Cabal: Case update

Dear Paul Siebert/Archive 2: Hello, this is to let you know that a Mediation Cabal case that you are involved in, or have some connection with:

Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/02 October 2011/Holodomor

is currently inactive as it has not been edited in at least a week. If the issues in the case have been resolved, please let us know on our talk page so we can close the case. If there are still issues that need to be addressed, let us know. If your mediator has become inactive, also let us know. The case will be closed in one month if it remains inactive. You can let us know what's going on by sending a message through to your mediator, Steven Zhang, on their talk page. Thanks! MedcabBot (talk) 06:17, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

Mediation Cabal: Case update

Dear Paul Siebert/Archive 2: Hello, this is to let you know that a Mediation Cabal case that you are involved in, or have some connection with:

Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/02 October 2011/Holodomor

is currently inactive as it has not been edited in at least a week. If the issues in the case have been resolved, please let us know on our talk page so we can close the case. If there are still issues that need to be addressed, let us know. If your mediator has become inactive, also let us know. The case will be closed in one month if it remains inactive. You can let us know what's going on by sending a message through to your mediator, Steven Zhang, on their talk page. Thanks! MedcabBot (talk) 15:13, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Once again: Template of WW2

Please, make a review of sources given in Template talk: WW2InfoBox — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.111.134.242 (talk) 10:30, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Mediation Cabal: Case update

Dear Paul Siebert/Archive 2: Hello, this is to let you know that a Mediation Cabal case that you are involved in, or have some connection with:

Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/02 October 2011/Holodomor

is currently inactive as it has not been edited in at least a week. If the issues in the case have been resolved, please let us know on our talk page so we can close the case. If there are still issues that need to be addressed, let us know. If your mediator has become inactive, also let us know. The case will be closed in one month if it remains inactive. You can let us know what's going on by sending a message through to your mediator, Steven Zhang, on their talk page. Thanks! MedcabBot (talk) 12:43, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Image that may interest you

First, I am suggesting this to you because I will not be editing the article in question that I think it should be added to, and so I obviously won't add it there myself. There's too much drama with that page, and I'm not going to be involved with it.

As you can see, I think this disproves a lot of the Nazi apologist claims of Nazi women being raped. That seems to fit the focus of the article, so it might be good to add or at least suggest on the talk page. Anonyma Mädel (talk) 06:24, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

It disproves nothing but the idea that the Soviet actions towards local population were uniformly brutal. As I already wrote, many serious authors, including even Naimark, note that the spectrum of the attitude of Soviet military to German local population was extremely broad, from looting, killing and rapes to very kind relations and even fraternisation. I saw many photos similar to that you found.

--Paul Siebert (talk) 13:53, 26 January 2012 (UTC)