User talk:Parrot of Doom/Archives/2011/October

Pissed off

[1] I'm kind of pissed off with that. Malleus Fatuorum 01:30, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

Why? It's only a question, there's no hidden meaning. If you've been to the library then at least I can guess what books you borrowed. For all I know you may have read some of them online (as I often do), and may therefore have been unable to access certain pages. Parrot of Doom 06:24, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

Ah I can see perhaps you may have thought it was a slight dig, but you seem to have been kicking around with it for a while now and I haven't looked at its appearance before you started editing it, or paid much attention to how much you've done on it. I just wanted to know if you'd already used the major sources from the libraries, or just looked online in your spare time. Parrot of Doom 07:22, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

I have been kicking around with it for some time, but I just can't seem to get it right. I'm wondering whether a readjustment along similar lines to your recent reorganisation of the social and legal background might be the way to go: something like workhouses pre-1834, Victorian workhouses, later developments? Malleus Fatuorum 13:01, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

I have in mind an integration of much of the daily workhouse life. For instance, talk about the architecture of the earliest workhouses - pick some notable ones to begin with. Then move inside, who lived there, what kind of work they did. Use an example of improvement from one generation of building to the next to introduce similar improvements in conditions, such as classrooms, dormitories, medical needs, etc. Keep the people in the workhouse central at all times, write about how they were affected by the larger forces around them. We could build much of the workhouse's history following such a structure. Then, once most of the important points are covered, introduce the staff (for example), and step back in time once more, telling their story through the same improvements, referencing points already made (helps remind the reader of what happened).

Without having read any of the sources the above is just an aspiration. That's the sort of thing I have in mind though. Are there any books you haven't gotten hold of you think may be useful, that I could look around for? Parrot of Doom 13:09, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

That sounds like an interesting approach, and I can see it working pretty well. The main authors on the subject seem to be Higginbotham and Fowler, both of whose books I've been able to find in either Trafford or Manchester libraries. It's not the lack of material I've struggled with, quite the reverse, it's a vehicle for telling the story. Malleus Fatuorum 13:38, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

I'm left completely speechless

There's a discussion on a page I think I must have watchlisted after the ongoing wife selling nonsense started, nominally about women being offended by vulgar jokes, whatever they are. But it's transmogrified into a policy proposal that there should be no jokes at all, anywhere, as they're unnecessary. I despair of this fucking place. Malleus Fatuorum 13:55, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

Don't despair, if a policy of no jokes anywhere is implemented, that'll mean that those who proposed it will have to leave. Parrot of Doom 14:36, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

Congrads

Congratulations on passing Manchester Ship Canal, I only just peeked at the article history and noticed. If you had told me a month ago that I'd read a 60kb article on a canal I would have looked at you oddly, but ye drew the story out well, used nicely placed hooks, and and all the rest and well its a model FA now. More of the same please. Ceoil (talk) 10:28, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for your kind words Ceoil, and thanks for your contributions also. I had a look at the article for the M60 motorway the other day, and that's in a poor state, so I might start kicking that around. Parrot of Doom 10:37, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) Gotta love that good ol' FA cabal. Congrats as well, PoD ;P Doc talk 10:45, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

Good luck to you with it POD, and if you can make it as engaging and readable as the canal, I'll come back and be all like[2]. The Manc cabal is a very productive and skilled cabal indeed. Its worth mentioning that 6 out of my favourite 10 bands are from Manchester. 1 is from Cork. Ye bastards! Ceoil (talk) 10:50, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

Featured Article promotion

	Congratulations!
	Thanks for all the work you did in making Manchester Ship Canal a Featured Article! Please accept this barnstar. Your work is much appreciated. – Quadell (talk) 18:59, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

Brilliant!

The image you just added to the Diet section is absolutely spot on. Malleus Fatuorum 21:49, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

I try :) Parrot of Doom 21:59, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

I love the image of the kids you just added, but I think we'll have trouble manhandling it through an FA image review if we can't find the book it was obviously copied from. Whoever uploaded it to Flickr appears to be claiming copyright on it. Malleus Fatuorum 20:22, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

It's a photograph held by Crumpsall Workhouse (later Hospital, I presume). From the National Archives entry, it was donated by the nurse in the file description, there's no way she could have taken it. Which means that it's almost certainly out of copyright. I had a similar dilemma with the old photograph on Radcliffe, Greater Manchester, but so long as you spend time looking around... Flickr's default upload settings claim copyright on all images so that isn't unusual. I think it'll be ok. Parrot of Doom 20:40, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

OK, I'll stop worrying then. I'm thinking that the article is already too much for GAN, so when we're both reasonably happy with it how about going for a peer review? It really helped with the ship canal. Malleus Fatuorum 20:47, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

I was about to say there's no harm in soliciting further input, but then I remembered Nev1's talk page of late. A peer review is probably a good idea. I think it's still a lot of work away from GA or FA, the structure is coming together but there are too many gaps right now. Parrot of Doom 20:50, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Loads of gaps, I agree; I wasn't suggesting any kind of a rush for the baubles. Malleus Fatuorum 20:57, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

BTW, if you want an image of an older workhouse, search for workhouse here. Parrot of Doom 21:04, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

BTW again, there's a noticeable absence of religion. I recall reading somewhere that the Bishop of Exeter (in the Lords I think) was whinging about there being no provision in some Bill for religion. Parrot of Doom 21:06, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Isn't that covered by the requirement to bore the inmates to death by reading them prayers before breakfast and after supper, already mentioned? Most bishops are as crazy as coots anyway. Malleus Fatuorum 21:17, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

That'll teach me to rely on CTRL+F "religion". Do you think Robert Blincoe is relevant to this article? Parrot of Doom 21:21, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

I don't really think so, there are lots of individual accounts of what it was like to be in a workhouse, his is nothing special. Malleus Fatuorum 21:29, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Damn, look at the teacher and children image. I'd love to use that, but info is scant. Parrot of Doom 21:33, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Jeez, that's a fabulous picture! Malleus Fatuorum 21:38, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Why is it so fucking hard?

Why has wife selling been such fucking hard work for God knows how long now? Don't the feminist cookies have anywhere else to play? Malleus Fatuorum 21:45, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Some people don't have a sense of humour. That's about all I can think of. It isn't nearly as bad as what I've got to put up with at a certain bonfire article. Speaking of which, last year that got about 350,000 views - if you get a spare ten minutes in the next few weeks, could you look over it before the madness begins? Also, what's the state of play with Workhouse now? Parrot of Doom 21:51, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, I've noticed the insanity building up there as well. You've reminded me that I haven't yet added the bit I wanted to about what it was like to be admitted into a workhouse, which I'll try and do tomorrow. But I think we're probably ready for a peer review now regardless? Malleus Fatuorum 22:04, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Sure. I'd like to mention something about religion but if I'm honest I haven't looked yet. Preoccupied with other stuff, today the last episode of the fourth season of Breaking Bad. Awesome stuff, you should definitely watch it. You'd like Walter White I think :) Parrot of Doom 22:12, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

I've never watched it but I've read about it, perhaps on here. I think I could probably relate to Walter. Malleus Fatuorum 22:23, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

But back to workhouses, I don't think there's much of a religious story to tell. They came about because of economic pressure and social dogma, the idea that the poor were responsible for their own misfortune. The story for me is the evolution of the post-1834 workhouse from effectively a place of punishment into a place of care, and ultimately into our welfare state. Malleus Fatuorum 22:27, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Oh you should definitely watch Breaking Bad, it ranks up there with The Wire, Sopranos, that kind of thing. It is utterly superb.

I can't find a decent image of workhouse inmates for the lead, so I guess it'll have to be a building. I'll keep the camera in the boot and keep me eye out for a dark foreboding image. Parrot of Doom 22:40, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Hill Street Blues? I think that was the first TV programme I saw that forced me to accept that Americans make some damn fine TV programmes. Malleus Fatuorum 22:58, 12 October 2011 (UTC

Sorry for the lurk. Was looking through my watchlist and saw this section heading. I probably have a visual form of Tourette syndrome :( Anyway, I did some highly localised research on a Pembrokeshire workhouse a while back. Consider Gibson, Rogers, Webb and Young – Poor Law records and Poor Law Documents Before 1834 By Anne Cole --Senra (Talk) 23:32, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the link, that's a nice article. I'd really like to have articles on all the Poor Law Unions, or at least all of those in the north-west. Malleus Fatuorum 13:55, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

They make the best tv dramas in the world. You really can't beat scenes like this, or this, or this. I hardly watch any UK TV now. Parrot of Doom 23:33, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Except for Dr Who I hope? Malleus Fatuorum 23:35, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

That last link especially does remind us that not all Americans are brainless knob heads. Malleus Fatuorum 23:41, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Workhouse at PR review

Here. Malleus Fatuorum 00:22, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Just a thought, the stigma around workhouses hadn't disappeared by the mid-20th century and it was a factor in people trying to keep out. I don't recollect a mention of the vagrants' wards. Is this useful?--J3Mrs (talk) 12:25, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

That's a useful summary. Vagrants wards is one of the things I need to cover in the admissions section I've yet to finish. It's rather staggering to realise that workhouses didn't cease to exist until 1948; our social and welfare history is sadly neglected here on Wikipedia. Malleus Fatuorum 13:00, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Most infirmaries were workhouses until 1930. I have a couple of deaths in our family tree in Leigh Union workhouse which puzzled me until I made the connection.--J3Mrs (talk) 13:12, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

I may have been born in one myself. It was called a maternity hospital by then of course, but it was certainly a pretty grim and forbidding building. It was only a street away from where we lived until I left school, and of course all of us kids were convinced that it was haunted. Malleus Fatuorum 13:59, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

MF you are procrastinating.--J3Mrs (talk) 19:11, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

I am, you're quite right. Malleus Fatuorum 19:25, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

I do it all the time, especially when tax bills land on my doorstep. Parrot of Doom 19:35, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

We all do:-) it's just that MF is so good at it where this article is concerned.--J3Mrs (talk) 20:06, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

There's just so much to cover, it's quite daunting. Anyway I've pretty much covered the casual wards for vagrants now, at last, and pretty grim places they seem to have been . Malleus Fatuorum 23:01, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Footbridge

Do you happen to have a pic of the MediaCity footbridge? It would make a change from buildings. It would benefit from one of the piazza too. Yours hopefully--J3Mrs (talk) 21:16, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

I don't think so, but I'll certainly ride down there and get one for you when the weather clears. There are a few on Flickr that are compatible with commons, do an advanced search and you'll find them. Parrot of Doom 21:37, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, the weather didn't clear when I went for a sail down the ship canal. I'd like one of yours as I'm hopeless with the Commons, so, if it's not too much trouble, it can wait.:-)--J3Mrs (talk) 22:23, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

The weather forecast for tomorrow is good so fingers crossed. Parrot of Doom 22:26, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Fingers crossed then.--J3Mrs (talk) 22:31, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

The weather was willing but the car parking situation wasn't, so I'll try again on Sunday when the roads are quieter. Parrot of Doom 13:05, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Well thanks for trying, I don't know why but I thought you'd be on your bike. :-)--J3Mrs (talk) 14:43, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

I try not to cycle around Trafford Park, potholes everywhere :) Parrot of Doom 14:47, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

I haven't forgotten about this, but the weather is atrocious right now :( Parrot of Doom 17:54, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

No worries, it's miserable and gloomy here too. Don't go out of your way. :-) --J3Mrs (talk) 19:04, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

From the north bank of the canal

From the south bank

They ok? The bridge changes colour quite a bit, unfortunately when I rocked up it got stuck at cyan and blue. I have images from different angles with different colours, but I think those are the two most suitable. I also have an image of the Lowry Theatre with the Millenium Bridge, but that looks rubbish at night. Parrot of Doom 22:19, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Wow! ask him for a picture of a bridge and he comes up with a work of art - brilliant! (Shit, I think the exclamation mark key got stuck again!!!!!) Richerman (talk) 22:37, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

I rather like the second one. Has one of the lights failed in the BBC sign on the roof? Mr Stephen (talk) 22:42, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Yep, it certainly has. I can fix that if you want, just let me know. Here's the bridge when red, you can have that image too if you like. Just do me a favour, I'm tethered to my phone's 3G connection right now as my broadband has blown up, so if you want it, upload it to commons, as I have a cap on my mobile use. Parrot of Doom 22:43, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Just teasing, I didn't expect you to climb the roof :-) The blue is better I think, with the bridge echoing the colour of the buildings. Mr Stephen (talk) 22:58, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Nah I'm serious, although I can fix it with a mouse and not a ladder :) Parrot of Doom 22:59, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Is there enough information in the original to tone it down and make the whole sign readable, but still look believable? (ah, but then you would have to fix the reflection in the river too ...) Mr Stephen (talk) 23:14, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

I'll have to check the raw image tomorrow. Parrot of Doom 23:54, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Brilliant pics. I prefer the first one for the MediaCityUK article, as it more obviously features the bridge rather than the BBC building behind it. And actually this is the first time I've seen the bridge at night; I didn't even realise that it changed colour. Malleus Fatuorum 23:07, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

It's really very nice, silently gliding through a rainbow of colours. Of course it helps that it wasn't chucking down with rain. Parrot of Doom 23:54, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Late to the party but so pleased I asked PoD. They are so much more than ok! They're fantastic, I like them both (and the red one) but there are quite a few images of Dock House so I suppose I'd go with the bridge. Would you like to add it? Thank you for going to so much trouble.--J3Mrs (talk) 17:47, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

I'll let you do that, I don't want you know who looking on my talk page and giving me grief :) The plaza was completely empty when I went, it needs to be shot at the right time, on the right day. I can't see the sun getting down it too often. Glad you like the shots. Parrot of Doom 18:55, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

I've done it, I think the other might look good in the Salford Quays article. It's exactly what was needed. Thanks again.--J3Mrs (talk) 19:53, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

There's another couple of images on my Flickr stream now, you can have those if you like. I tried with the green one to frame the museum in properly, but it wasn't really possible. I also tried to fix the BBC logo but unfortunately the RAW image doesn't contain enough detail for me to bring the lettering down, so all I can do is overexpose all three letters. Parrot of Doom 20:59, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

Ah, shame about the letters. Like the other photos, though. Mr Stephen (talk) 15:49, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

Blackbeard

Care to explain? That's a fairly straightforward cleanup. The article was much improved. One Ton Depot (talk) 08:45, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

It may have been improved in your opinion but I prefer to use the Harvnb template, and I prefer to use a particular style of citation formatting at the end of an article. WP:CITE suggests that editors wishing to make changes as you did first use the article's talk page to gain consensus. Parrot of Doom 08:55, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

The sfn template is simply the shorthand form of the harvnb template. They format the same. The other major improvement was to move the few inline sources down to the "Sources" section with the bulk of the sources. There were many minor edits, too; all discarded. I do see why, and why you've rule #1 at the top of this page. One Ton Depot (talk) 09:08, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

They do not format "the same", and I do not see your changes as "improvements". The simple fact is, if you want to make changes to an article's citation style based purely on personal preference, you're requested first to gain consensus on the article's talk page. Parrot of Doom 09:14, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

Oh, The Horror —you're right!!! sfn puts periods at the end of the footnotes, which, of course, justifies your maintaining fifteen-hundred-odd characters of messy reg-tags around the harvnbs (as well a forgoing the automation of the collating of footnotes that sfn offers).

So, since I have called you on WP:OWN, where should I go? ('away' would be the more civil euphemism, right?) One Ton Depot (talk) 19:50, 20 October 2011 (UTC) (sorry I didn't gain your permission, first)

I'm not interested in your childish little rants. Take them somewhere else and don't post here again. Parrot of Doom 19:56, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

Be careful of ... you know who

Wikimania 2007 party

He's a big mate of, well, you know who. :-) (I wonder how many other bugs there are lurking since the recent software "upgrade"?) Malleus Fatuorum 22:41, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

I've worked with all manner of celebrities in my career, and not once have I ever felt the need to have my photograph taken with any of them. Today it was Darren Bent, nice guy but do I want to put my arm around his shoulder? No. However, if I ever meet anyone from Pink Floyd, or Jean Michel Jarre... There's a big difference between public success and greatness. Parrot of Doom 22:46, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

Hi

Hi there, thanks for saying that you'd support The Human Centipede (First Sequence) being on the Main Page this year for Halloween. I just thought I'd let you know that I've formally nominated it now, so if you could repeat your support on the nomination page it would be really helpful. The page is at Wikipedia:Today's featured article/requests. Thanks! cya Coolug (talk) 10:23, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

No problem. I've not seen the film (generally horror films don't do much for me) but as far as I'm concerned, if it's FA, it's suitable for TFA. Parrot of Doom 10:55, 25 October 2011 (UTC)