User talk:Paoki4

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Speedy deletion nomination of List of PAOK FC seasons

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A tag has been placed on List of PAOK FC seasons requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section G12 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the page appears to be an unambiguous copyright infringement. This page appears to be a direct copy from http://www.paokfc.gr/en/history-2/time-line/special-1/. For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or printed material, and as a consequence, your addition will most likely be deleted. You may use external websites or other printed material as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences. This part is crucial: say it in your own words. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously and persistent violators will be blocked from editing.

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Wikipedia and copyright

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March 2017

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Your addition to PAOK FC has been removed, as it appears to have added copyrighted material to Wikipedia without evidence of permission from the copyright holder. If you are the copyright holder, please read Wikipedia:Donating copyrighted materials for more information on uploading your material to Wikipedia. For legal reasons, Wikipedia cannot accept copyrighted material, including text or images from print publications or from other websites, without an appropriate and verifiable license. All such contributions will be deleted. You may use external websites or publications as a source of information, but not as a source of content, such as sentences or images—you must write using your own words. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. CAPTAIN RAJU (✉) 13:20, 24 March 2017 (UTC)

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PAOK FC

Please add only sourced material in Paok fc article. Feel free to contribute, as I do, but there are some objections from some usersGreco22 (talk) 21:37, 20 June 2017 (UTC)

My English is not very good, otherwise I would make the whole article from scratch. This is why I avoid getting involved in articles containing text. Also missing an article with full stats and record of the club. If I had sources and data I would make it. If you have data, created an article with PAOK's record and statistics.

Only information that is directly cited in other reliable, independent sources should be being added to the article. We shouldn't add loads of detail just because we want to, if that information is not cited. For example, having a photo of a team shirt from 1991 is not enough in terms of adding a section on kits. Regards. Eldumpo (talk) 22:09, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

OK, that's right. Μust be sources for everything. Thanks for your answer.

Βαρεμένος πρέπει να'ναι. Έχει εμμονή με το άρθρο του Παοκ, ενω του επισήμανα οτι τα υπολοιπα των τριών μεγάλων (αεκ, παο, οσφπ) περιεχουν πολυ περισσοτερες αναφορες χωρις πηγες. Πραγματικα κατεστρεψε το αρθρο, ενώ μαλλον έχει κάποια ασυλια Επιβεβαιωμενος χρηστης, κατι τετοιοGreco22 (talk)

Xεχε, μπραβο παοκι μου!Greco22 (talk) 22:40, 3 July 2017 (UTC)

Θελει ανεξαρτητες πηγές ο τύπος (οχι απο σαιτ της παε) Πχ υλικο που χει αναφορες στο επισημο site της παε, παρατηρω το αφαιρειGreco22 (talk) 22:40, 6 July 2017 (UTC)

Δε ξερω γιατι εχει τετοιο κολλημα με αυτο το αρθρο. Τα περισσοτερα που εβαλες παντως τα αφησε. Ασε την ελληνικη, η αγγλικη απευθυνεται σε ολο τον πλανητη ρε. Προσεθεσε, οπως μου'χες πει, αν θες σταδιακα στο τμημα της ιστοριας, με πηγες ανεξαρτητες, και θα παρεμβω και εγω υπερ των edit σου

ps.Στην ακαδημια ειδικα εκανες τρομερη δουλεια, κιαυτο με την εναλλακτικη κοκκινη εμφανιση που βρηκες ωραιο!

Greco22 (talk) 00:56, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

Μια χαρα ειναι τα αγγλικα σου φιλε!Greco22 (talk) 20:26, 9 July 2017 (UTC)

Oχι ρε δε με ζαλιζεις, τι λες τωρα. Αλλωστε ολοι γουσταρουμε να προσθετουμε λιγο ή πολυ γιαυτο ειμαστε εδω.

Τον ελντουμπο μη του πολυπας κοντρα νευριάζοντας τον. Λεγε του "ναι ναι" και συνεχισε να κανεις αυτο που γουσταρεις. Ειναι μαλλον σοβαρη περιπτωση :D

Τωρα για το χαρτη, δυστυχως αν και συνεισφερω αρκετα χρονια στη wiki, και στα ποδοσφαιρικα, με τους χαρτες ποτέ δε τα πηγα καλα Δυστυχως Παντως εχεις κανει πολυ εξειδικευμενη δουλεια :) Greco22 (talk) 21:11, 10 July 2017 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Nikolas Mattheou

The article Nikolas Mattheou has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:

Article about a footballer who fails WP:GNG and who has not played in a fully pro league.

While all constructive contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, pages may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{proposed deletion/dated}} notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the page to address the issues raised. Removing {{proposed deletion/dated}} will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. Sir Sputnik (talk) 16:43, 5 July 2017 (UTC)

Greek rivalries

I will try and look at some of the other articles you mention. Don't have time to look at them all, but as a general point uncited, or synthesised, material should not be added. Regards. Eldumpo (talk) 18:53, 5 July 2017 (UTC)

Don't forget the core of Wikipedia is notability. It's not about whether statements are true, but whether they are covered in multiple, independent, reliable sources. WP is not for an indiscriminate collection of facts, or synthesis. Eldumpo (talk) 21:45, 5 July 2017 (UTC)

Hopefully you will get to read the main policies soon, and be aware that verifying something is a fact is different to it being notable, and not all information about PAOK (or any other article) should necessarily be added to Wikipedia. I'm not convinced the badge/sponsor/kit info you've added is notable. I appreciate the PAOK FC article may be in a better state than many other Greek football articles. Regards. Eldumpo (talk) 19:58, 6 July 2017 (UTC)

Notability

In order to have an article on Wikipedia, a subject must be considered notable. For footballers, there are two relevant guidelines for evaluating notability. The general notability guideline says that any subject that has received significant coverage is notable. In the context of football this means coverage that goes beyond routine sports coverage such match reports, squad lists, transfer announcements etc. It's fairly rare for a footballer to meet this guideline unless they also meet the other relevant one. The football specific notability guideline say that a footballer is notable if they have played for their country's national team or in one of the fully professional leagues listed here. Played in this context means appearing in a match, either in the starting eleven or coming on as a substitute. Obviously, Nikolas Mattheou has not done that yet. If and when he makes his debut in Cyprus, he will. You may recreate the article at that point, or request its undeletion and WP:REFUND. I hope that clears thing up. Sir Sputnik (talk) 13:54, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I should specified senior national team above. I usually do when explaining notability to newcomers. In fact, WP:NFOOTY specifically says that youth football does not typically confer notability: Youth players are not notable unless they satisfy one of the statements above, or if they can be shown to meet the wider requirements of WP:GNG. Sir Sputnik (talk) 15:38, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

PAOK

Lists need to be directly sourced, not synthesised. Where is the reliable source that ranks the leading apps and scorers. In the absence of that the information should be excluded. The RSSSF source of 1998/99 listed the Top 5 as of that season, but that is obviously now dated. Is there anything more recent? Eldumpo (talk) 09:56, 10 July 2017 (UTC)

  this is top 5? There is a list on this link, on roster of the teams. In this list the only ones who have managed to get in are Athanasiadis and the Salpingidis. The only error you had on the list you deleted was in the 10th position. Athanasiadis should not have been there, but the Giannis Giakoumis.
  Most Appearances :                 Top Scorers :
504 Jiorgos Koudas                 136 Stavros Sarafis
395 Kostas Iosifidis               134 Jiorgos Koudas
376 Jiannis Gounaris                84 Jiorgos Skartados
359 Stavros Sarafis                 74 Jiorgos Kostikos
366 Ar. Fountoukidis                66 Neto Guerino
280 K. Apostolidis                  59 Panagiotis Kermanidis
265 Jiorgos Skartados               55 Achilleas Aslanidis
250 Jiakoumis                       55 Kostas Orfanos
                                    52 K. ApostolidisPaoki4 (talk) 10:07, 10 July 2017 (UTC)

Sorry, RSSSF is Top 8 but 5 would be a good round number, so could amend list to be as RSSSF source (make it clear data is to 98/99) in absence of any other data. Eldumpo (talk) 18:28, 10 July 2017 (UTC)

RSSSF is generally good and reliable, but it has mistakes. The first mistake is the goal of Koudas. There he reports that he has achieved 134, while in fact he has 133. A game that played and put a goal was canceled, and when it was repeated, he did not score. Mistakes do not stop there. There are other mistakes on other footballers, on appearances. But you are bothering with everything. At first you want sources. When I find you sources, you tell me they are not reliable. When I find you reliable sources, you tell me there is no list, and the synthesis is not good. When I find you a list, you tell me to put top 5. Do you want to erase everything to be quiet? You want only the top 5? top6? top7? top3? what do you want? Please stop tiring me. Paoki4 (talk) 19:18, 10 July 2017 (UTC)

All of my comments are consistent with core Wikipedia policies. The problem seems to be that you have decided that certain facts need to be at the article whether or not they are really notable. For a list of top appearances/scorers there needs to be an actual sourced list showing that information. RSSSF seems to be the only source at the moment. I note you have concerns with its reliability in this instance (and noting it is 20 years old) so on that basis we have no reliable source for this information and so the tables should be removed. Don't take things too personally, everyone's work can be changed on Wikipedia. Eldumpo (talk) 07:46, 11 July 2017 (UTC)

It is not my job the appearances/scoring List. I tried to find reliable sources to stay there. You choose the easy way to delete it. And I ask you again, Do you want to keep the top5? Because there is a list in RSSSF? I do not get anything personally. You say you follow the wikipedia policy but I do not see discussing anything that is wrong. Just remove it as a judge of everything. I respect and accept any help from experienced users/admin etc. What irritates me, Is the direct deletion without discussion. As you saw, in the texts you removed from the history (because they were not encyclopedically written), I had no objections because I thought it right. Returning to the issue, i don't think it's right to remove them all. If you think top 10 doesn't have reliable sources, leave a top 5. I can compromise with this, until I find better sources. I don't accept whole deletion. Paoki4 (talk) 10:13, 11 July 2017 (UTC)

Well at present we don't have a reliable source showing this information. I'm not inclined to now keep the Top 5 based on the RSSSF source, as you've indicated it has reliability concerns. Text should be removed without reliable sources; if sources are subsequently found the information can be added back in later. See also WP:BRD Eldumpo (talk) 20:46, 11 July 2017 (UTC)

I have a book with details and is more recent than the RSSSF. Published in 2004. Can you help me with the bibliography standard? How do I put the details of the book?Paoki4 (talk) 10:24, 12 July 2017 (UTC)

You can fill in the details by changing the details of the below and copying to the article. I would suggest going no more than 10 of each.Eldumpo (talk) 14:59, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

See WP:RS to WP:V. See also WP:BRD when dealing with reverts. GiantSnowman 18:02, 10 July 2017 (UTC)

Source comments

Hi, I'm not sure if you changed the top scorers list when the 2004 source was added, but Salpangidis and Athanaisaidis positions must be wrong for 2004. Can you put the correct figures in, for the whole list, same may potentially apply for the top appearances list. Also can you add a URL in the citation ref showing the book for sale, perhaps the publishers website? Eldumpo (talk) 21:58, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

There is nothing to change! I have told you that the only ones who have entered the top ten are the athanasiadis and salpi. Everyone else is the same. It didn't change anything from the list of rsssf until the 2004 book I have. The book was a collector's edition of newspaper "Σπορ του Βορρά" (sport of the north). He hasn't ISBN, and this newspaper was closed two years ago. If you don't believe me, I'll send you a picture of the book whenever I can.Paoki4 (talk) 22:20, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

In order to have a proper non-synthesised source, and as set out above, if the 2004 source you have is going to be the reference for the lists, it needs to be exactly replicated. You can't just add in other players who have since played more. That's why I added the text to make it clear that the list was correct as of 2004. If the source is a notable newspaper that's fine but it would be useful if that information could be added to the citation template. Eldumpo (talk) 07:29, 24 July 2017 (UTC)

What should I do? So, i must remove 2 (salpi-Athanasiadis) and put those who are in the book, while they have fewer appearances and goals respectively? Then we will have a list as it exists in the 2004 book, but it will be wrong. That seems absurd to me. I will buy a book published by the team in 2016, which went out for the 90 years of the club. Probable that the statistics will be updated.Paoki4 (talk) 08:50, 29 July 2017 (UTC)

Nomination of Nikolas Mattheou for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Nikolas Mattheou is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Nikolas Mattheou until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. Sir Sputnik (talk) 14:17, 10 July 2017 (UTC)

Why are you sending me this again? I have not removed any notice. Paoki4 (talk) 18:55, 10 July 2017 (UTC)

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