User talk:OldManRivers/Archive 4

This is an archive of past discussions about User:OldManRivers. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Indigenous/native template proj from Oregon bunch

Hi; your participation is invited to Template talk:Native peoples of the Pacific Northwest - the conversation had begun at hte Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Oregon page...think I managed to head a few things off at the pass; and we now have people to help us sort out the Oregon-area cultures (i.e. those outside the "Pacific Northwest Coast culture" ecumene)...Skookum1 (talk) 13:56, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

I suggested a merge on that one; see its talkpage; pls comment.Skookum1 (talk) 16:48, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Old Man House

Somewhere I left you a note about this; just found someone wrote an article, needs work, good effort though; foundation for later bighouse articles/cat....Skookum1 (talk) 16:48, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Note: Archive 3

I archived previous discussions. They can be found here. OldManRivers (talk) 08:15, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

heads-up

See my changes to cats at Haida Argillite Carvings, which also needs major work. Not your turf, exactly; although getting to be time for the local subcats to Category:Northwest Coast art.Skookum1 (talk) 18:24, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

haida guy

Yo; figure I'd ask you to write a welcome/reply to the Haida youth who posted at the Talk:Haida page. It would be great to encourage him to take a regular role in Wikipedia on Haida subjects the way you've come to be for South/Central Coast peoples. Just figure might be best to have the outreach done by someone who went through the ropes learning Wikipedia style/content guidelines who's also come from a FN background, i.e. someone he can relate to so he's not frustrated by all us white folks mucking about in his people's articles.... Saw your edit a little while ago about feeling like a slave, I feel the same way again, still haven't gotten to articles I meant to write when coming back from Wikibreak (well, a few) and find it all eating up my music time and getting-to-the-gym time...gotta learn some discipline and prioritizing.....Skookum1 (talk) 16:08, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Meetup

Best, Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 06:07, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Haida Argillite Carvings

Again; same deal as with the Haida guy, could you welcome/coach the person who's inputting this as to WP:MOS. I've got my hands full....article has tone/content/citation problems as well as needs de-capitalizing the titleSkookum1 (talk) 15:23, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

pic/painting of Songhees Bighouses

IT doesn't say who it's by, but this article's lead image on http://thetyee.ca shows the Songhees village where the big resort on the Inner Harbour is now.....I've seen other drawings of Songhees, but none giving such a good idea of the scale of the bighouses....or by your definitions, are those longhouses? Skookum1 (talk) 14:07, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, those are pretty big. We call them longhouses. Coast Salish say longhouses, northerners call them bighouses, although they can be inter-changeable in the south. Not inter-changeable up north. Northern, aren't...really "long". bighouses. It's a neat picture. I think some of the longhouses in Xwayxway would've been this big. OldManRivers (talk) 16:24, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Hope you don't mind me fixing your English - I'd expect you to correct my snichim :-) I see you doing that a lot, figured you might not mind...and speaking of my snichim this is probably spelled wrong but Xwmelch'stn I seem to recall re Capt. Vancouver's journal that it had a large building/enclosure...the same kind? The artist btw I think is the same guy who did the now-infamous (but well-intended) legislature murals....Skookum1 (talk) 17:05, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Category talk:First Nations leaders

Can we move here so it's easier to follow the discussion? - TheMightyQuill (talk) 17:45, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Alert Bay, British Columbia article

I've tinkered with this a bit, it's still pretty sloppy. You're from up there, or connected up there; any chance you could gussy this up (over time, no rush). Have a look through its recent history and on the talkpage about the Alert Bay NWT, which I still haven't been able to find any other ref to...Skookum1 (talk) 15:21, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Wow! I forgot how bad that article is. I'll definietly get on it. Next time I'm up there I'll also take a few snapshots of the town. The longhouse, U'mista, the village from the ferry. Thanks for reminding me. There has to be a ton of information on the internet about the place. OldManRivers (talk) 19:39, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure I've got it on the hard drives I have with me, or if it's on CD back in BC, but I'll see if I can dig out that collection of old rez school pics of my Mom's; there's one with a student parade between the two totem poles out front, plus other more casual shots, and some building shots maybe useful for illustrating 'Umista as a building.; there's also some of Mom and/or friends on the boardwalk where the long-nose bird totem poles/houseposts are. Have you looked at Sointula by the way? Wondering what you might have to add....also I just added your Maggie/Margaret Frank picture to In the Land of the Head Hunters, which didn't have "our" cats and templates on them yet; only a stub, have at 'er, I'm sure you've got lots to input into it. You might want to look over Curtis' bio, also, and consider a Category:Ethnographers who have studied the Kwakwaka'wakw maybe; in the Gitxsan and Tsimshian cats just throw hte missionaries and ethno types and linguists right into the cats; we need some kind of separate hierarchy for all FNs, i.e. for people connected to them, but who are not of them. Also thought of Category:Honorary members of First Nations and subcats, Category:Honorary Haida Category:Honorary Haida people/Category:Honorary members of the Haida Nation etc. I wouldn't know the full list but it includes Iona Campgnolo and (gasp) Gordon Campbell and Mike Harcourt. Oh, and Svend, of course, but many others over time; each otheri articles we should make suer has their aboriginal names ;-) Don't know if there are any honorary Skwxwu7mesh, but I'd imagine so over the last 100 years and more....Skookum1 (talk) 20:39, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Kevin Annett and the Skwxwu7mesh elders

Hi; this isn't a Wikipedia topic, not quite anyway (not yet in other words but could you take a look at the comment forums following the article at http://thetyee.ca/Views/2008/04/30/TruthAndAbuse/ and use "find on page" to find posts from "POC04746160"...the article is troubling enough but when I came across this I thought "I better ask OMR about this":

In addition, on March 16, 2008, Reverend Annett was appointed as the personal agent of hereditary Squamish Chief Kiapilano, on whose land Mr. Glavin lives and The Tyee is published. We therefore consider Terry Glavin and The Tyee to have violated their occupancy of Chief Kiapilano's land, and Chief Kiapilano's hospitality, and we call upon both Terry Glavin and The Tyee to vacate Squamish territory immediately.

Who could happened to appoint someone "the personal agent of hereditary Squamish Chief Kiapilano"...other than the holder of that name, of course. But is Kiapilano a hereditary CHIEF name, and as we've gotten at before re August Jack/Khahtsahlano "what is a chief anyway?" Does this Kiapilano have the traditional authority to speak for the whole people, and to rule its territory (as if he were a king or hyas tyee), or is it really just a name, like Khahtsahlano? The post where that paragraph comes from (one of several preceding it) ends with:

We call upon the world to endorse our condemnation and expulsion of Terry Glavin and The Tyee, and to boycott this magazine and person.

Sincerely, we are

The Indigenous Elders of the IHRTGC, coming from the Squamish, Cree, Metis, Anishinabe, Lakota and Six Nations under the traditional Land Law Jurisdiction of Turtle Island.

Chief Louis Daniels, presiding elder

Looks to me that whoever this is isn't rrepresen5ting the Sikwxwu7mesh, but agitators from the Cree, Mteis, etc... (A.I.M.) and don't even start telling me (as I know you wouldn't) that "Turtle Island" is part of traditional Skwxwu7mesh ideas or that the "traditional Land Law Jurisdiction of Turtle Island" has anything at all to do with traditional culture/law. Anyway the "presiding elder" apparently is presiding over a "genocide tribunal" - a tribunal convened by the the authority of Skwxwu7mesh Uxwuimixw, or by him and his buddies? Who is "Chief Louis Daniels" - the current Kiapilano? Is he even si:am? I don't mean to drag you into this, I just want to know who this guy is/claims to be; and as you can guess I hate the kind of vengeful rhetoric going on; Terry Glavin also happens to be a friend of mine, and is a consistent writer on native human rights and cultural history, and has lived among hte Katzie and worked close with the Tslihqot'in and others. Calling him a racist just stinks, but it's typical of the invective that gets levelled against people when they don't conform to "fundamentalist" ideas (of whatever stripe).; this kind of rhetoric is hardly the path to "truth and reconciliation"....Skookum1 (talk) 14:51, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

I used to laugh when I seen Te Kapilano's name in the media or anywhere else. If you check out my blog here, you'll noticed "Eagle Strong Voice" has graced me with his presence in the comments section. I'm actually just doing research into this Capilano thing and eventually going to publish it all on wikipeida (with citations of course). My main source is Conversations with Khatsalano. Anyways, as our discussions before. "Old Man" Capilano was the original holder of that name. He had three wives. A Musqeam, a Skwxwu7mesh, and a Sliammon (or Sechelt. Still trying to find out). With his musqeuam wife, he had Ayatak, and Ayatak had Frank Charlie. He also had a son Lahwa. Lahwa was the "hereditary" chief of Capilano Reserve. Remember though, this is the hereditary chieftainship system of the reserve. This isn't technically "indigenous governance" for my people. Anyways, Lahwa and his wife died in the river. Drowned. Lahwa was also his chieftain name. This is coming from the Squamish side. Lahwa was from his Skwxwu7mesh wife. He also had another daughter who married Chief Tom. Anyways, in Conversations, Aytak and August Jack both say the word/name "Capilano" or what it would be in both our languages of Kiyapilanexw (sound familar?) is a Musqueam name. Later comes Joe Capilano. Joe Capilano's mother, was Mary Capilano. Mary Capilano was niece to Frank Charlie, Chief Lawhwa, and Chief Tom's wife (I cannot remember her name). Mary Capilano is also my great great great grandmother..lol.

In 1906, Joe Capilano was traveling to London, yata yata yata. They gave him the name because they wanted him to have some kind of rank or status, hoping it would help him gain audience with the King. Joe Capilano's son was Mathias Joe. Mathias Joe had Buffilo Mathias, Buffilo had Joe Mathias, Joe Mathias had Stefany Mathias.

Now this Te Kapilano, also known as Gerry Johnson, is technically Squamish. Kind of funny thought because the Johnson family enfranchised a long time ago. Someone didn't want to be Indian. He comes from one of "Old Man" Capilano's wifes. I haven't goton to this part yet.

Here's the good part. Jerry Johnson has never once had a potlatch. He has never had a traditional naming ceremony, calling witnesses, feeding the people, sharing his wealth. He has never once worked with, or lived with, the people. In absolutely no way is he a siyam. He does not have the respect of any of our people. Frak, non of my people even know who he is. Seriously. What anyone is learning about him, comes from the media. I only met learned of him because he was trying to use my grandmother a few years ago. I've never personally met him.

Hope that helps?

Kevin Annett is a twisted man using all of this for his own gain. Another nutball I guess. It's just freaky how many sheep are following him and Te Capilano in their quest for what ever. I do think there are hidden graves. I actually think one of the people Kevin Annet is getting his source about these hidden graves is the late Harriet Nahanee. She worked with him briefly, then he started using her words without permission. Then she openly discredited him and distanced herself when she saw what he was using her for. He now goes around saying their were friends when they were no such thing. OldManRivers (talk) 20:14, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

I wonder if Jerry or Eagle Strong Voice will come and get mad about this post...lol OldManRivers (talk) 20:14, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, first let's NOt start Kevin Annett just yet; I don't have the stomach fora blodbath ;-) But while he may not see this here, oh so very much I want you to lte me quote you above in http://thetyee.ca, or you'[re welcome to do it yourself; that he's never had a potlatch and comes from a "sold-out" family makes it all the more ripe; "ripe" in the British comic sense and also the rotten-fruit kind (where the British sense comes from); "too rich" like an over-icinged and cream-stuffed cake, huh? At least let me quote you as an "anonymous Skwxwu7mesh source)".Skookum1 (talk) 21:28, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Let me think about it. OldManRivers (talk) 22:08, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

If someone else were coopting the Skwxwu7mesh heritage and good name, would you respond? And sorry, while I gave the cat's tail away most if it's still in the bag (see the forum)Skookum1 (talk) 22:21, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

I can just say "I made a call to the reserve"....Skookum1 (talk) 22:28, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

I was on the run and had to think about it. I wasn't questioning saying something, just wondering if I should say something. I'm too tired to go and try and have a bitch fight, so Skookum1, as my temporarily-appointed as the personal agent of me, can go and raise hell. Go ahead, quote me. OldManRivers (talk) 00:16, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Where's this forum?

Sorry; it's the comments forum that follows the article at http://thetyee.ca/Views/2008/04/30/TruthAndAbuse/ - at some point Annett's people/followers start raising Cain, or calling the author that anyway; they' come at me about my not (supposedly) knowing about the all-powerful 4th World Movement yata yata and I came back with "but this guy's not even status", basically; didn't give the details you did....anyway hope you don't mind I spilled a few beans, it's towards the verry bottom of the comment,s but the easiest way to find me is to use "find on pag" for the same username as here/ Skookum1 / although you may find the whole comments forum interesting, including the ravings form Annett's crowd....I don't read it close, it all sounds like cultish stuff to me, especially when they go on about his saintliness...anyway, apprently they get into talking about aliens and Masons, too....no doubt I'm going to be accused of appropriating native culture by my choise of usernames (skookum1, tamanassman) but I'm ready for that ;-). Anyway I'll go see what they've saidsinced and will hold back; don't forget you don't have to give family details like some ou've mentioned, iel the thing with your mother or your great great grandmother etc; ie other wiswe identity yourself; it's why we all have usernames there... it would just be good to have a Skwxwu7mesh perspective on "Te Kapilano", Annett and whta you think of the Lakota and Anishinabe who have cme to help the Skwxwu78mesh pronoucne fatwas on miscreants who do not follow the True Creed. BTW you've seen Brother XII haven't you? BVy the way, what's the context of "Te" in teh name; is it just a prefix or might it bea Skwxwu7mesh adaptation/version of tyee??

Sorry, I should of been clearer. Gerarld Johnson IS is a Squamish Nation band member. His family years ago (The Johnson family) enfranchised. Sometime in the 80's they came back in. I don't think it's related to Bill-C31 though. As for the te thing, I'm not sure what he's getting at there. I'm assuming he got his spelling of the name from Conversations with Khatsalano or one of the ethnographers/anthropologists who worked with my people. It may of been Kuipers or Barnett. I cannot remember. Anyways, if he's trying to get at ta, then he means "THE Capilano" or at least "THE Chief - Capilano". It's not "proper", I guess you could say, in my language. Like, no one puts words like that before their name. Your theory of tyee might be true too, but it would be the first time I've seen it/heard of it.

You also got something wrong in the email to the editors (and possibley other places). Joe Capilano didn't have many wives, his grandfather "Old Man" Capilano did. OldManRivers (talk) 07:27, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

[unindent] Wow. it only went up this morning and he had to shut the debate down, it was all happening too fast for the moderator to cope with; I already bcc'd you my letter to the editor; this is very unusual at The Tyee, although there've been controversies among the forum membership about editorial censorship befrore, but in this case Harriet Nahannee weighs in (there's a younger one, right? i.e living) and then Annett himself, with all kidns of charges about Nahannee being an RCMP plottist.....the editor always has to watch rfor legal liabilities; the forums get edited all the time. This one got dangerous; as you'll have noted in my email I mentioned the lack of a proper acquisition/earning/bestowing of the name, no potlatch etc; very curious they'd leave that out, as if (ironically) the real tradition was the suspect one....Anyway all amusing/disturbing.Skookum1 (talk) 04:14, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

SquamishNation.org

So looks like Chief Kiapalano has set up his own website. Nothing to legitimize your organization, or in his case, "governmnet" then a website. I posted a blog about the band council corruption with the Olympics here. Looks like Gerry seen it, and left a comment for me to email him. Not sure where I'm going to do/say to him yet. Just thought I'd share it with you in case you came across it. OldManRivers (talk) 22:57, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

you blog's pic

Oh man, what a fine shot of Garibaldi; it's too bad it wouldn't look good at 300 px, but otherwise the best illustrative pic of it (esp. as a volcano) I've seen....land-based at least; you've seen Randall & Kat's Flying Photos" no? (google that).Skookum1 (talk) 21:39, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

You'll make our pal User:Black Tusk real happy if you posted that to Wikimedia Commons and put it on the article page....at first I thought it was Rainer or Baker until I saw The Table in the foreground....what's the Table's Skwxwu7mesh name anyway? It must have one, given what it looks like....Skookum1 (talk) 21:41, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Way ahead ya feller. [1]. lol. It was originally supposed to be a "use for now" photo till I designed a better header. But it's a nice photograph. Don't know if that table has a name. OldManRivers (talk) 22:07, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Got anything nice of Mamquam or Sky Pilot or Meslilloet ?Skookum1 (talk) 22:25, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Commitment

I think I've decided my commitment will be to work heavily on one section a week. This is for almost all article. In some cases, it'll be stubbing, or expanding, or something. But I think if I don't do it this way, I'll feel overwhelmed, then never get anything done. Coming next week? Skwxwu7mesh Art. = ) OldManRivers (talk) 09:04, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Welcome mat again

Hi again about the indigenous welcome-mat thing; please see this and note User talk:Sliammonfirstnation. Somebody already gave them some cookies (I got one too;see my talkpage); do you think we could maybe have wiki-eulachon grease ? ;-) Later.Skookum1 (talk) 04:43, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Out fishing?

Hey dude, figure you have a real life, noticed you haven't b een active this last while; when you're back please see Talk:'Nak'waxda'xw#Nahwitti_IR_4 as I'm totally confused now; wanted to start doing Royal Navy/HBC history bits in the Queen Charlotte Strait, including the shelling of Newitty (whichever it was...) and also Fort Rupert; the latter is a big article because of teh HBC history there adn the coal strike and so on.....guess I'll wait, not my turf, very much yours. Been doing what I could on community stubs, e.g. Kingcome, British Columbia.....Skookum1 (talk) 02:26, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

PS you might want to take a lawnmower to Laich-kwil-tach which I wrote before knowing much about Wiki style and not being as familiar with Kwakwaka'wakw issues aw i am now (thanks to you); the We'kayi link on the template now links to this; it's the spelling the Cape Mudge Band uses, apparently in a different dialect, thoguh this page giv es Likwala with a superscript 'w' (well not quite that spelling but just scribing from memory); known in "English" as the Euclataws of course, sometimes as the Yuculta or Yucultas; I've also seen Lekwiltok which I think is used by the AMNH book, no?Skookum1 (talk) 02:33, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Hey Skookum! I have been quite busy. Busy working as a graphic designer. Took on two jobs, when I probably should of taken on one. But when you need/want the money, what can you do. So that's been keeping me busy, and probably will till the end of the month. Then early next month, I'm doing a bit of traveling. Actually, for most of the summer, I'll be gone.

But man O' man, do I hate stressing about money. Dealing with rent stuff and I really dislike being stressed about it. But, I think everything will work out one way or another. I recently got awarded the YVR Art Foundation Aboriginal Youth Art Scholarship. I get a few bucks to apprentice with a mentor in Coast Salish art. Mostly carving, drawing, design, etc. I really like my mentor (who's my brother-in-law). He doesn't do work for the market, but just for cultural and community use. So I'm happy about that. But the money helps me buy tools, research funds, etc. I'll send you some of my work when their done.

I'm also applying for a few other grants this summer. So that's a big work load. lol. I'll try and do my best around these parts if I get a chance to. = ) OldManRivers (talk) 17:42, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Tsleil-waututh "people" article

Just last night I undid tweaks to the Coast Salish#The Peoples article/section where someone had piped Tsleil-waututh First Nation behind Tsleil-waututh.....I remember recently, or sort of recently, you'd said some things about where they came from, who they were etc in relation to Skwxwu7mesh history/relationships but am not sure on which of our many talkpages that was on; or I'd pen up a quick stub to "fill in teh blanks"....I know you're still focussed on Skwxwu7mesh and Kwakwaka'wakw articles but if you could come up with a real basic "people" stub it would help prevent similar pipings to govt articles when there should be ethno ones; there are hundreds of such instances, no doubt, but certain high-profile ones need doing; I recently found some good online sources for Katzie and Kwantlen, though nothing on Kway-quiht-lam yet (however they spell that...) so I can do those, at least as starters; but I don't want to tread on Skwxwu7mesh toes by venturing the Tsleil-waututh one....also btw for your Skwxwu7mesh article there's some bit of HBC log about the first dealings with the Skwxwu7mesh on Howe Sound, cant' remember in whose journals or exactly when; 1830s I think; nice quote from Hill-Tout, and you might want to find Cole Harris' The Resetlement of British Columbia which goes into the epidemics and populatino changes in great detail and he also challengeds the usual low-numbers of whiteman history....the influenza epidemic of hte 1830s was known elsewhere as "the mortality" and I don't think it was ordinary influencza; I remember a reference to a "hemorrhagic fever" or "tropical fever" on either the lower Columbia or lower Fraser and some mysterious ship that brought it in; influenza in its advanced stages is like ebola....(or rather ebola is really a kind of influenza - "a filling up with fluid/blood"...).Anyway back to fixing/sorting cats adn trying to keep various new articles frmo flying out of control (Stave Falls and Bralorne are home-turf articles for me that others have now started....). later, gonna try and discipline my wikitime in the next whiel as I need to be playing more music and writing more songs......Skookum1 (talk) 13:45, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

I'll see what I can do. Musqueam has the same problem. The ironic thing is, Musqueam is ultra-conservative in their band council dealings. At least Squamish Nation is too big for them to control everything, Musqueam Band Council has to control everything with them. Everything and anything needs approval from the band council. It's freaking crazy. OldManRivers (talk) 18:15, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

I just looked at their website and they use XwMuthkwium on the intro page though nowhere else; deeper inside they use IPA, all dressed up as if it were an exotic script; or what looks like IPA anyway. I've seen three or four other renderings of their name, I think including one from you (not the Skwxwu7mesh name for them, but their own). The XwMuthkwium spelling should probably be used for their ethno article, the way you've done with Skwxwu7mesh and as elsewhere; much of the content on the existing band page can/should be migrated to the ethno page once it's made; most band pages as you nkow are virtually stubs, it's to the ethno articles that count, or should. I'm well aware of the conservatism you're talkign about, I find the same thing with the St'at'imc and certain otehr groups; otehrs are much more forthcoming and wanting to be known about; the Musequem state straight out they want to keep their culture secret; I'll forward you a reply from the Vancouve Museum I had about pics of certain things I thought might be in their colllection; they say that their own photoghraphs cannot be public domain because of "cultural sensitivity issues" - the very secretism that, to me, endangers the survival of cultures, and certainly, inevitably, incrases ignorance and supposition about them. Musqueam politics are also infamously in-fought, like the Tsawwassen also, and that control you're talking about sounds like keeping the otehr half of the community silenced (which is how it comes across in media reports about all this). In fact, on their current page, they state outright that their own system of authority was broken down by the white man's order, i.e. the caste system if you read between the lines; authority being the key word, a reminder to me that democratic motives are hardly what's bewhind a lot of poiltical stumping in FN-land. Anyway that'as a big discussion and you're much more up close and personal to the reality than this cultus whiteman could possibly be; but I hope in the course of your life you fight for cultural oppennes and education and that "publish or perish" ethic I mentioned above somewhere; keeping a culture sealed up is one sure way to keep anyone else from knowing or caring anything about it (except as "told to" by the "official line"....it's like that complaint from the In-SHUCK-ch consuultants I got taht I didn't have a right to know or talk about their history unless I let the elders censor me en route....fine in their culture, not fine in mine. Anyway back to the ethno'people splits; I'll look up correct spellings for Kway-quiht-lam and others (I don't think that's proper Halkomelem, maybe it is; to me it's just another thing like Cayoose/Kiy-oose where an already-native word/name present in English has to be made to look more alienc to "authenticate" it. Coquitlam Indian Band/Kway-quiht-lam would be the split there, I don't think there's a diff for Katzie or Kwantlen, we'll see.....Skookum1 (talk) 19:21, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

btw someone added a slew of cite templates to the current Musqueam page, most to do with August Jack info I'd put in there; anything you can ref/cite please do so, on whichver page taht stuff winds up on. The bit about him choosing Senakw instead of living either at Capilano/Mosquito Creek or Musqueam I got from Maj. Matthews, Vol. 1.Skookum1 (talk) 19:23, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Close but no cigar, or rather no hyphens, plus an 'h' - Kwayhquitlum First Nation, and the pages I found that on say "formerly the Coquitlam Indian Band". So I guess it has to be Kwayhquitlum/Kwayhquitlum First Nation]] raterh than anything else; I already differentiated Sts'Ailes/Chehalis Indian Band as you may remember....that Chilliwack area freaks me out, though; older groupings are now gone, or renamed, all are Chilliwacks/Chillhiwhyeuk and I think the "ethnic groups" and the bands/reserves all overlap or have been so blurred over time that we really need someone frmo up tht way to sort it all out. Anyway, back to whatever else I'm buggering my nose into ;-) (and trying to avoid nasty flare-up fights-into-nowhere, like Talk:Gray sails the Columbia River.....Skookum1 (talk) 19:35, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

I've seen that XwMuthkwium' on their page before. But to be honest, I don't even that is right. I think who ever designed the website or gave them that spelling is more along the lines of "how you pronounce our traditional name." Similar to saying Skwa-Xwoh-Mesh, right? In any case, look at this. They flat out spelt the name wrong. The website is crap and the communications department that did it is horrible. In any case, I think Xwméthkwyiem is the proper spelling. Xwmets'kwiyam is my peoples way of saying it. Akin to Keminem, Shishá7lh, or Sel’it’wetulh. Have to find a few sources for the proper Musqueam spelling. It might be harder to go with the "proper" name for them too because of lack of resources. There is significant source to cite Skwxwu7mesh over Squamish, which is why I stuck with it. I just don't know if it's posisble to do the same with Musqueam. OldManRivers (talk) 20:26, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

You're gonna love these...

Holy cow. Not only did I find a whole set of pictures of the 'Yalis graveyard and a few of Campbell River's but check THIS out. Talk about a great illustration for Coast Salish art, no? Also behooves us to try and get a Comox people article started, political minefield that K'omoks First Nation may turn out to be (AFAIK the Island Comox are subsumed now into the Weywakum, sort of, although maybe hte Qualicums are technically Comox? I'm fuzzy in that area...). One of the 'Yalis pics, I think the one that says "photographic print cut-out etc" may be a great illustration for Thunderbird or Thunderbird and Whale, no? I found these while trying to find pics of the Holy Redeemer Church and its graveyard at Skookumchuck Hot Springs, which I know is in BC Archives somewhere; used to haev it on my HD but wound up accidentally deleting a whole whack of pics a couple of years ago...while preparing to back them up....I also wrote the Vancovuer Museum trying to find those graveyard figures from thte Fraser Canyon I mentioned, they can't find them, so will continue digging. The Comox graveyard totems are great stuff, doncha think?Skookum1 (talk) 06:21, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Also this which is from the Pitt and so most likely Katzie in origin (the Katzie are teh forebvears of teh kwayquitlums and Kwantlens, or so their story goes...). Kinda Mexican lookin' no? Doesn't say if it's been dated, and how it got in the Kamloops Museum is hard to say....semi-dated to 1960s so let's pretend it's pre-1960 and {{Canada-50}} or whatever thte license is applies....Skookum1 (talk) 06:58, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

....and this and this. A lot fancier than the rough turtle-bowl, I think made from clay, that was found in our basement in Ruskin (Skayuks/Whonnock territory)...now in some museum somewhere....Skookum1 (talk) 07:00, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

This is "attributed to the Klaskinas tribe" - who'd that be, the Koskimo (Gusgamagw)?Skookum1 (talk) 07:02, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Indian carving, Quamichan Rancherie, Quamichan (Cowichan area).Skookum1 (talk)

Painting on "Nimkish Salmon Fetish", thought you'd be interested; the painter Lindley Crease was one of Henry Crease's daughters so this is definitely PD (well, the painting is, the photograph of it may technically not be....).Skookum1 (talk) 07:11, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

I've seen photo's of that graveyard before. As for the Comox graveyeard photograph, I think those poles are a mixture. Some Coast Salish art elements, some more northern influences (makes since considering location). The eye's seem Coast Salish, but the shape of the figures is different. I'll upload a few photograph I have from a few places for you:

Welcome Figure - This is a welcome figure/house post that my carving teacher did a few years ago. It's up in the bush in the Elaho Valley. It's one of four figures who depict a society of women who used to steward the lands. Kind of, men defended the people, women looked over the land. It's a nice carving.
Kxw'u7lh Sea Going Canoe - This is our sea going canoe at 52 or 53 feet. Made in 93' for the first Tribal Journeys to Bella Bella. It's one of the nicest canoes I've ever pulled in.
Skwxwu7mesh Spindle Whorl - This is a spindle whorl sold in 1890 in front of the St Paulls Church in Eslha7an village. For a can of milk and a loaf of bread believe it or not. It's not located in the Burke Museum in Seattle. That art grant I told you about a few sections above is giving me the funds to work my carving teacher and replicate this spindle whorl. It belonged to my family before it was sold.
Human & Serpent Spindle Whorl - Another really nice spindle whorl. Don't know where it's from, but I like it.
Another Spindle Whorl - Again, don't know where from, but decent.
Mountain Goat Wool Blanket - Don't know where from but I like it!
Mountain Goat Horn Braclets - Beautiful braclets. I think their Skwxwu7mesh, but I guess it's debatable. My carving teacher just took up jewlery work too and did a replica of these braclets. Super nice. Traditionally/Historically worn by nobility.
Mary Capilano Painting - I have no idea who made this painting of my great great great great grandmother, but I like it.]

Hope you liked those photographs. None of them can obviously be released to Creative Commons, but I do want to take my own photographs of the Skwxwu7mesh Spindle whorl when I'm in Seattle. What's the protocal on that kind of stuff. Do I have to ask the Musuem to be able to release it to Creative Commons for the Skwxwu7mesh page article, or can I just snap a photo and release the photograph? Hope ya liked the photographs! OldManRivers (talk) 07:19, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

yeah, I did, especially the big standing statue in the first link. As for Comox, I'm aware of the "mixture" you're talking about, and it strikes me from what I've heard that upper Georgia Strait peoples (including yours and the Shishalh) are more connected/influenced by what's farther up-coast, as thsee clearly are. What struck me as being Salishan about them, other than the eyes, is the large-mass shapes and bulky, fluid lines, with less detail and ornament than in Kwakwaka'wakw or more northerly styles; you have to admit these don't look like Norwethwest Coast art in its "pure" state, either; a Salishan take and still more Coast Salish than "of a kind" with Haida/Tsimshianic/Wakashan art styles; "softer" and less formal, too, maybe. The thing with that image and hte others linked is we can use them because their crown copyright has expired. Another image that's out there somewhere is an old, old painting/etching of the interior of a Sooke or Songhees longhouse, with a particularly roundish-mouth/face design on some of the houseposts. I used to attribute the apparenty clumsiness of the designs to the uneducated eye of the British artist who made them, but those guys are often quite photographic in their abilities, and now I might say that the drawing is a perhaps fairly close rendition of Coast Salish styles; my younger eye had wanted to see something like what might be found in Alert Bay; I'll see if I can find the pic, it's fairly common in books on early BC....as for taken-in-the-museum pics it can depend on what's being photographed; I'll forward you what I got back from the Vancouver Museum, which I haven't repleid to yet, where she cites "cultural sensitivity" about releasing photos of grave figures, but did invigte me (or someone) to come in and photograph things. each museum will have different policies, but I think if you cite your credentials - your art scholarship/apprenticeship and your work for Skwxwu7mesh history/culture in Wiki and elsewhere. So better to ask; and the way you ask could get you a lot more freedom to take pics of some things that non-indiengeous people might not be granted the same rights to do....with museums, protocol is always a big deal, especially with native culture; so pull rank/descent on 'em, they'll probably listen. ;-) You should definitely trip out to Xa:ytem if you haven't seen it, and I know the curator there will be very welcoming (they have a couple of real big spinldle whorls, too....). If you've never been to Xa:ytem, your visit to "the rock of the si:yam" should be interesting to hear back from on; it's got a lot of mojo, that place....if you cmoe across Daphne Sleigh's People of the Harrison her chapter on the Scowlitz and Chehalis villages and their art might be worth quoting for the article on Coast Salish art, though no pictures or drawings have survived. Also if you go to Xa:ytem make sure to drop by the Mission Museum and the adjoining archives; they may have seomthign worth photographing. Now lessee, I had something else I was going to mention but in the course of writing this it's slipped from my mind...time for more coffee, I guess (I just got up).Skookum1 (talk) 13:29, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Oh, now I remember (right after saying I didn't) - either in Howay & Scholefield's book, which I've been reading online, or - oh yeah, in a pdf on the Kwakiutl which is easiest to just send to you (linked somewhere) details of teh Euclataws conqeust of Quadra island are given; much later than I expected it happened, I'll be curious for your response....Skookum1 (talk) 13:32, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

And be sure to look at Talk:Henry Hunt (artist) and Talk:Mungo Martin about pd pics of them I found....Skookum1 (talk) 13:39, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Archives?

I was thinking about the same thing lol. Sure, you can create an archive. Black Tusk 17:05, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Spud City Potlatch

Hi; been browsing BC Archives for various reasons; came across a "North Bend Potlatch" which really wans't much of a picture, but check out the Spud City Potlatch in Ashcroft, 1917. Just providing these as cases-in-point about why a separate article for non-coastal-culture potlatches is needed; or at least a sepcial subsection.Skookum1 (talk) 21:49, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

List of Skwxwu7mesh villages??

Hi; I found this which is no doubt of interest/use to you. The Kwakiutl section is less interesting/detailed, though the Haida one turned out to have a big list also (see Talk:Haida#List of Haida villages. BTW the Kwakiutl page at this site idetnified the Nahwitti dialect as being that of the Tlatlaskwala (sp?); sound right? Nahwittis turn up in early historeis all the time,. it would be good to ahve an article on them.Skookum1 (talk) 17:18, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

hohhuq - Crooked beak?

Admittedly the Emily Carr site doesn't say thunderbird when it uses that word; I'd assumed it was as xoxo7 or whatever was already on the Thunderbird page; my mistake; the actual Kwak'wala names for the Thunderbird should be here, though, plus any others we can find out about. On the Emily Carr site I think it was either the Blunden Harbour or 'Yalis pages that had a story about an ancestor-thunderbird associated with a particular village/tribe.Skookum1 (talk) 12:03, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

There is dozens of names for different Thunderbirds. It's the ancestors of different clans for different villages. Like for 'Namgis, Kwankwanxwalige’ is the name of our ancestor who came second after another ancestors. There are different characters of Thundebirds for different tribes. It's not singular. OldManRivers (talk) 17:24, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Archives Canada photo

Siwash Indian Band mean anything to you? I don't know who this is. - TheMightyQuill (talk) 22:01, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

No it doesn't. There was a musical orchestra band my people had back in the day. Actually, it was lead by Andy Paull. Was hoping that was it. Anyways, I don't recognize anyone in their, nor do I recognize their facial structure for what people they might be from. No help from me on this one. OldManRivers (talk) 06:12, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

I've often wondered if some salesman for Boosey and Hawkes didnt' have a brother in the Oblates, given all the First Nations brass bands at the various missions; there was one at Shalalth, which survived long after the Oblates had left that mission, and St. Mary's Drum & Bugle Corps was huge; the sound of massed glockenspiels and out-of-tune cornets has never quite left me, adn the white buckskin outfits were amazing.....the thing about the Mosquito Creeek Misson/ustlawn is that it probably had students from other tribes, which was teh case of course at St. Mary's and as we've discussedbefvore at St. Michael's in Alert Bay; pictures of students and such from thte days of operating missions won't often jibe with local peoples at this location. This looks rather like the Shalalth otufit, in fact, although I haven't seen a picture of hte latter in its old-time duds for many years; maybe they were visiting North VAn. The use of "Siwash Indians" as a collective term for BC indigenous peoples was very common; there was even a Siwash (tribe) article, if not quite that title then somethign like it, because of teh entry in the Catholic Encyclopedia (note also Wakash Indians).Skookum1 (talk) 15:36, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

The image description says it's from Burrard Inlet... - TheMightyQuill (talk) 13:10, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Then I think it's possible it's Skwxwu7mesh. OldManRivers (talk) 06:45, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

catname and such

I've just spent too much valuable time trying to straighten out User:The Man in Question's questionable edits, including reverting the Sḵwx̱wú7mesh history article, though not quite to the same title-form as you'd had it; ditto with his changes to the cat, which wound up orphaning the Nahanee, Siwash Rock, Andy Paull and Khahtsahlano and other articles; I also changed back his changes to Esla7an etc. I think the cat name should change back, unless you like the new "Sḵwx̱wú7mesh" version better - to me that doesnt' look as good but maybe it's because I'm on MacOS/Camino - you seemed to really like it when the X_ showed up int he main article change; mabye it looks different in Internet Explorer? There may have been useful information in TMiQ's edits, but I undid them wholesale and if there's anything worthwhile in there please add it back in; as i said in one of my edits if he hadnt' gone and deleted valid material his own valid material, if it's valid, would not have been deleted/undone. If his translations and transcriptions of Skwxwu7mesh language are beter, by all means restore them; I really took umbrage with his decision as t o what thet "correct" English/anglicized names were, which is BUNK; no such thing as a "correct" version of a variable rendering, given that in your estimation they're all "mistakes" anyway. Whatever, I just decided to go at this as I noticed a few more recent changes by him, without any response at all either to your advice/comments or to mine. Fine, "be that way". I suspect a POV fork is at work; why else would he NOT change the cat name across all articles in the cat, and why were cdertain articles moved and others not? I'd say we have to watch the Capilano-related articles......Skookum1 (talk) 05:53, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

I wonder if it's Gerry Johnson (Chief Te Kiapliano) or Kevin Annet doing this? hahaha OldManRivers (talk) 07:11, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Longhouse

To be honest, it's not really something I know about. The only thing I've read which talks about longhouses is

"A Stó:lo-Coast Salish historical atlas" by Keith Thor Carlson and Albert Jules McHalsie (the McHalsie's are from a Chilliwack FN, I believe, and pretty reliable). You can try a search at http://www.worldcat.org maybe under "Coast Salish". Sorry I'm not much help. - TheMightyQuill (talk) 13:11, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Ditto, pretty much. As mentioned somewhere else, there's old-old fur trade era sketches of a Songhees longhouse and some descriptions from that era; you might want to look into Helmcken's writings, come to think of it, and there must be something in the Ft Langley journals on the Kwantlen villages and others. And the Sto:lo Atlas might have some good bibliographical stuff to check into but I don't recall much in there on longhouses per se. I've referred before to Daphne Sleigh's People of the Harrison which does have some descriptions of the Scowlitz and Chehalis villages/longhouses...also re Xway-xway make sure you read right through Matthews' Early Vancouver (first two vols, mostly the first; only those two are published, the other 5 vols are in the Vancouver Archives) as somewhere I read a bit about the demolition of the village during the construction of the Stanley Park Ring Road; it might have been in Alan Morley's Vancouver:From Milltown to Metropolis instead of Matthews....the shell middens there were excavated and crushed to make the pavement for what is now park drive; which was paved not for automobiles, by thew ay, but for bicycles....the story in question mentions that the surveyors were getting cursed out by the remaining inhabitants of the village; sounded like, from what I remember, the longhouses were surrounded by the midden; when I first read it it almost sounded like these were pit-houses like in the Interior (quiggly holes), but I've never heard of pit-houess used on the Coast (other than way down in Oregon). There may be writings on Old Man House worth looking at.....that's not quite it, something else is stuck in my mind, I'll be back when it comes to me.....Skookum1 (talk) 14:56, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

One quick addition/comment: the Longhouse article needs breaking down by region/culture; Nepal, Indonesia, Polynesia, Africa and the Pacific Northwest and Algonkian cultures are all currently mishmased inside it....Skookum1 (talk) 14:57, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

When you're in downtown Vancouver sometime, go by MacLeod's Books at Richards & Pender and ask for Don Stewart, tell him I sent you, and tell him what you're looking for; he may know of stuff in his FN collection that I haven't heard of. He'll let you browse/read for hours and take notes, but bring some buying money if you've got any; you're gonna find something you want there for sure....Skookum1 (talk) 15:01, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Coal Harbour photograph

I think the title is "off" a bit and may refer to Brockton Point; I've never heard of a native village on Coal Harbour, or in the area we refer to as Coal Harbour (on the south side of it, in other words). It's not the Kanaka Rancherie, which Iv'e seen pics of and had "nice houses" with gardens and orchard-trees (where the Lost Lagoon boathouse is now, plus the grassy/treed area towards English Bay from it). Coal Harbour, i.e .the area of the Bayshore Inn etc today, was a squatter settlement in the 1880s; do your people have a tradition of there being a village there? BTW could you get the proper Skwxwu7mesh snichim for "Lucklucky", the usual transcription of the indigenous placename for Gastown/Maple Tree Square?Skookum1 (talk) 18:47, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Also t he archivist could be very wrong in putting that Coal Harbour in Vancouver; there's anotehr up by Port Hardy, and I think another somewhere else in BC......Skookum1 (talk) 18:49, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Hazelton FN communities et al.

Hi dude; pls see Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Canadian_communities#Hazelton.2C_British_Columbia_and_sundry.Skookum1 (talk) 17:12, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Gitanyow/Kitwancool

Yikes! I just searched BC Archives for "Kitwancool" and hit the jackpot on a whole bunch of totem pole images, one of which I'll pick to illustrate the village, which apparently is nearly intact and undisturbed today, though the pics are old. But check out this war canoe. Wow, huh? Nice piece of work, probably fast as hell too...(meant for use on the very rough Kispiox and Skeena Rivers)..Skookum1 (talk) 17:27, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

It's an "alright" looking canoe. I've seen better. (haha) OldManRivers (talk) 20:26, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

yeah, yeah, wahtever, but it's public domain and I like the photograph as a photo - good angle, adn teh artwork's neat - and consider taht this is an inland canoe (can't tell how large it is, though). Some of the totem poies you'll find if you search "Kitwancool" are pretty nifty; very distinct in style. Good you should show up just now - go have a look at War Canoe and its talkpage; I took a "Native American" ref out of the lead but damn, does it ever need reworkign/splitting; so I went to BC ARchives again just now and searched "war canoe" and also "canoe race" and found some good pics; including some from Alert Bay "to mark the Coronation" in 1937 (QEII's daddy becoming king just before the war). I don't think we'll find any pd pics of Lootaas but I'd say it definitely needs an article; there's at least lots online about it and Reid's other canoes (google "Bill Reid canoe"), and I still recall that shot from Dominion Day in VAncouver Harbour in 1886 with the war canoe races and the HMS Triumph in attendance, plus the playbill for the day which is also in VPL; not hte kind of place they'd welcome a scanner in (I already searched their online collection, it's not there). I've got to go to the gym just now but would otherwise try and revise War Canoe some; "please be nice" in any edits to it ;-) "they mean well"; it seems to me the Tsleil-waututh article used to have something about their Takaya/Wolf racing club but nope, if it was there, it's gone. And let me know which of the Kitwancool pics/totems you like most and I'll strip it and upload it when I get back; I also found a pic there of Kitwanga Fort National Historic Site and Hagwilget Canyon Suspensions Bridge(s) though I haven't done an article on the latter yet.....suggested line "war canoe races were a popular part of public events in British Columbia until they were banned as a result of the anti-potlatch laws of 1922".....Skookum1 (talk) 20:40, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

And I think I'm going to add that Comox cemetery pic to the Comox people article, unless you can think of a nicer illustration.....btw if you search "skookum" in BC Archives, x-ref'd with "Swannell" you'll find a picture of his little inland canoe which he journeyed the inland waters with; although the pic is of them shooting rapids with it (with "Skookum" painted on the prow).Skookum1 (talk) 20:42, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

And if you happen to get the Sto:lo Atlas about that longhouse stuff, could you keep an eye out for material on the indigenous suspension bridge Trutch tore down to build the Alexandra Suspension Bridge; info on it should be added to the article; I found some stuff on the old pole-bridge across the Fraser at the Bridge River Rapids but haven't used it yet. And re longhouses, there were pics of a couple in the Kitwancool search....Skookum1 (talk) 20:44, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

BTW I got a real kick out of the Xeni Gwet'in/Nemiah website's self-description; "I can relate", coming from Shalalth and remembering the old road in there; theirs is one of the firsst really unpretentious FN sites I've found; "has the feel of the mountains" in the tone of voice; poked around there as a spinoff of making Waddington Canyon and Great Canyon (Homathko River) and fiddling with refs on associated articles; not your turf but the remoteness-flavour of their stuff is neat.Skookum1 (talk) 20:48, 16 June 2008 (UTC)