User talk:Ogress/Archive 61

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Rajiv Malhotra Page

@{yo|Ogress}}: Explain your reversal even after gross violation WP:RS. I'll escalate this further otherwise.

We had reached a consensus with the other party for discussion when you came and reverted the page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DharmoRakshati (talk • contribs) 07:38, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

I see no consensus on the talk page at all: quite the opposite. Ogress _smash! 07:47, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

Message regarding the deletion of Category: Mongoloid groups in Russia

If you delete Category:Mongoloid groups in Russia, how come you didn't delete Category:Indo-Mongoloid. I'm not trying to be racist. Why did "Mongoloid" is a racist term. FrankieL1985 (talk) 20:08, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

Mongoloid, Negroid and Caucasoid are archaic theories of race whose rebuttal is well-established at their articles. Ogress _smash! 20:12, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

Can you tell me the history of those words? Just tell me what words I shouldn't use on Wikipedia and should use instead? Should I have to be careful on what I type in? FrankieL1985 (talk) 20:16, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

Mongoloid, Negroid and Caucasoid were part of a theory of hierarchy that divided the world into "races", with Caucasoids being at the top and Negroids at the bottom as "animalistic" and Mongoloids being "partially animalistic". No one believes this idea is correct anymore. Genetic studies have long proven that there are no distinct races and these categories were initially created to power racist, colonial efforts to subjugate and enslave other human beings and take their stuff. It's not about censorship, it's about using modern understandings of the world. The author of these categories described them in terms of which groups had "degenerated" the most from the ideal form of the white man.

In modern terms, we discuss origin, languages people speak, and the like. We follow what the texts say. The idea that "Mongoloids" invaded India is outdated. What actually happened is that groups from what is now Burma moved into what is now Northeast India. Genetically, they share genes with adjacent populations, and have since ancient times. We identify them by languages and cultures, such as the Ahom. Ogress _smash! 20:37, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

WP:INDICSCRIPTS

The current (informal/rough) consensus seems to be theta the above policy is not applicable to pages falling primarily under the Hinduism project, especially for pages where the language association is not contentious eg here. See latest discussion on the topic on the India project noticeboard, which also mentions some other exceptions. Perhpas we should get all this formalized, but all the regulars are wary of sparking off a renewed and lengthy debate. Abecedare (talk) 16:15, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

I think in this case, if there is no infobox stating name of said article in "Indic script", then one should allow "Indic script" in lead. There should be at least once mention of "native name". Before deleting Indic script from lead one should check whether infobox is mentioning name in Indic script or not. --Human3015 knock knock • 17:17, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

Human3015 There's IAST in the first sentence: native name Śvetāśvataropaniṣad. If you have IAST you know the devanagari, it's the same. I don't understand the enthusiasm for devanagari, which is a modern script that is handy when writing in an Indic language like Sanskrit but is not integral to the language. Ogress _smash! 21:16, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

Abecedare I genuinely do not understand this fetishisation of devanagari, which was part of a colonial endeavor to box and manage "the savages". Half the time (at minimum) people add it wrong; IAST/NLK is used by scholars in roman scripts; there aren't, like, native speakers. Half the time it's Pali, which even today is written in whichever Pallava script is handy, making it a nightmare. Nationalists and ethnic nationalists from the Indic and Indic-influenced world overrun the pages to add their own forms: anything from Northeast India attracts Sanskrit repeated in at least four scripts (Odia, Assamese, Bengali and Devanagari). Honestly, it's such a boon to be able to just delete that or move it into an infobox. I'm fine with infoboxes. But the first sentence is always like "ATISHA (insert 14 languages for three paragraphs) was a scholar." Even the East Asian pages have been shunting off everything but the most relevant reference into infoboxes: premodern Korea is slowly just using template:hanja and modern Korea template:hangul instead of the old pattern of adding every variant, because all that stuff is in the infoboxes. I really think we do a massive disservice by seriously ruining the legibility of the lede. We should insist on the absolute minimum number of languages in the lede: if we really are going to loosen up with Indic scripts (which I strongly oppose) and are willing to add more Edit Warrior fights to the already completely terrible Hinduism pages - they are a nightmare in general - we definitely need to indicate primacy of one language, remainder in infoboxes with limited exceptions. I do not want to constantly find every premodern Northeast Indian Buddhism page knife-fighting over how [insert modern language] is the correct one. If a topic is premodern and Prakrit or Sanskrit, stick to devanagari.

Man this whole idea is giving me hives. Ogress _smash! 21:27, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

I hear you and share your frustration. Life on wiki would be so much simpler if language and scripts didn't become territorial pissing contests, with everyone trying to mark their territory even if it makes the place stink (see another user's cri de coeur here).

That said, I think this is often less of an issue on some Hinduism related pages esp. related to the Vedic era where the primacy of the Sanskrit (or Tamil in some cases) language is unarguable, and the use of (usually) Devanagiri is non-contentious. Shvetashvatara Upanishad and articles of its ilk are exactly such articles and and I don't see inclusion of multiple scripts ever being an issue in its article history. In such cases, leaving the Devnagiri script doesn't come with much cost and has some (admittedly minor) benefits, of providing useful search term, verification of IAST, and disambiguating for those who can read it. That is the reason, as I stated at the INB discussion, "the approach I personally follow is to apply WP:INDICSCRIPT strictly to non-historical bios and any page where inclusion of scripts is becoming an issue, and allow some flexibility elsewhere as long as the issue is not being gamed; leading to distracting edit-wars; or, degradation of article content" Cheers. Abecedare (talk) 01:05, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

An ARCA discussion involving you has been created

You are involved in a recently-filed request for clarification or amendment from the Arbitration Committee. Please review the request at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification and Amendment#Imposition of an Arbitration Enforced Sanction against me by Bishonen and, if you wish to do so, enter your statement and any other material you wish to submit to the Arbitration Committee. Additionally, the Wikipedia:Arbitration guide may be of use.

Thanks,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification_and_Amendment#Imposition_of_an_Arbitration_Enforced_Sanction_against_me_by_Bishonen Soham321 (talk) 20:33, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

@Soham321: do not put nowikis around the template, they are why it is not working. Remove the nowikis and the template is active. Nowiki means "don't deploy this template", a way to demonstrate what the template is without actually sticking it on the page. Ogress _smash! 03:19, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

You've been mentioned at AN/I

Greetings! Just a courtesy note that you have been mentioned at WP:ANI in a report filed by an unregistered user related to your edits at Ellalan (monarch). The thread is Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Elara (Monarch). —C.Fred (talk) 21:01, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

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Indic Scripts in Marathi and other indic languages

If Indic Scripts is not discriminate then i will make similar changes in all indian languages initials? Dongar Kathorekar (talk) 09:09, 21 July 2015 (UTC) Dongar Kathorekar (talk) 09:09, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

I am not hunting down and eliminating Indic scripts from pages that you like. It is policy, yes. Ogress _smash! 17:30, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

What's your views about Urdu language in lead? Is it indic script? Because I have found some editors who delete Marathi, Hindi, Gujarati, Tamil from lead but they don't delete Urdu or they revert others if they delete Urdu, stating that Urdu is not "Indic script". (Urdu is official language in few states of India).--Human3015 knock knock • 17:53, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

Yeah I remove it out of principle that it is an alphabet of an Indic language and has a romanisation standard to use, National Library at Kolkata romanization, which is I believe the same as ISO. It's in the Manual of Style as "ISO" for some reason. It's Indic language, it's therefore Indic script.

I also tend to remove Southeast Asian Pallava-based scripts like Thai, Lao, Burmese and Khmer assuming there is an infobox to put them in: I only hesitate in those situations because I cannot easily romanise those. Indic scripts you can get the NLK/IAST form straight off Google translate; it appears at the bottom of the page when you cut and paste the script into "translate from". Being less familiar with Thai/Lao/Khmer?Burmese etc. and not having access to a romanisation program, I hesitate a little because in the end, I do not want information to be lost. I want it to be accessible. But on pages like Ramayana I just take everything off because that's not necessary. We have a new system in place that anchors pages to meta-wiki links (other language wiki pages), we have infoboxes, we don't need to spam that stuff. Ogress _smash! 18:02, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

Okay also to be honest I also remove Urdu out of a sense of fairness. One of the worst, long-raging wars on Wikipedia is between Pakistani and Indian editors, whose grudge matches are so deep I literally cannot determine neutrality most of the time. I'm taking out Hindi for NLK, so I'm also taking out Urdu. The last thing we want is more fuel. But that's my interpretation of the highly arcane and self-contradictory Manual of Style. I interpret the ruling as "stop spamming all the languages, there's 100 and we love you all but we can't have all of them in the first sentence." Ogress _smash! 18:05, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

But I just wonder why you are so keen to delete Indic script? I know there is consensus for that but is there really need of such consensus? I'm not against keeping Urdu script in lead. I see no harm in keeping one Indic word in lead. Many people do edit war on such minor issue. If infobox mentions Indic script or native name then there is no need to keep it in lead but I will again say that if there is no infobox to stub article then we should allow Indic script in lead. Before deleting indic script we should make sure that article mentions "native name" somewhere. --Human3015 knock knock • 18:30, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

IAST is easily learnable by scholars and students as it is a relatively simple-to-learn variation on the Roman script. There are, as I said, hundreds of Indic languages and add one to an article and every other group wants to add their own language as well so as not to be left out. It's political. Also, we can keep the alternatives; that's what Infoboxes are for. We just really don't want 11 or 12 respellings of the word "Ramayana" in 10 Indic alphabets. It's not helpful for English Wikipedia to have these interrupting the lede, and the right place to list them is in Infoboxes. That's what works fine for East Asian topics, where we have like Classical Chinese, pinyin, wade-giles, hangul, two modern Korean romanisation styles, the Japanese syllabaries, the Japanese romanisation, Vietnamese, and then like a Sanskrit term to boot. What do we put in the lede? Usually the Classical Chinese term. Everything else goes on the side of the page where it is accessible but does not create an apocalypse of unreadability. After all, what is important is that the information "The X (Chinese characters) is a sutra about Buddhism". This is for the average reader. If I want to know the Korean pronunciation, as I often do, I look in the sidebar, where it has it. Same for Indic: if I need to know the Odia version of the word for X, I look in the sidebar. Otherwise, don't drown me in irrelevant information. Add Odia and 90% of the time Bengali, Assamese and other ethnic nationalists will add their languages, and pretty soon it looks like this: "X (Hindi, Urdu, Marathi, Odia, Assamese, Bengali, Tamil, Malayalam, Bengali, Sanskrit, Thai, Lao, Khmer, Prakrit, etc. etc. etc.) is a character in the Ramayana". By the time I hit "is a character in the Ramayana" I've lost my train of thought and this is literally the first sentence of the lede. It is in the Ramayana? Use Sanskrit. Stick all others, which are likely derivatives of the Sanskrit anyway, into the sidebar. The average reader does not care. They probably don't even care about Sanskrit, but we have SOME desire to educate. Ogress _smash! 18:43, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

Also, you can just add an infobox. Look for an example one and learn how to use it. This is Wikipedia, we are editors, we edit. If there's no infobox, figure out how to use the template. Ogress _smash! 18:45, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

Also, I do not get to decide to ignore consensus. That's like the founding principle of Wikipedia. Ogress _smash! 18:46, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

The reason some pages have the Urdu script but not others is that they might be shared between WikiProject India and the sister WikiProject Pakistan (or South Asia). Since Pakistan does have Urdu as its official language, we don't delete it. Cheers, Kautilya3 (talk) 20:18, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

Kautilya3 I don't understand how that works. Are you saying India/Pakistan are English Wikis and we share a single Wikipedia page that we all edit? India has 20 officially recognized languages, how is that different? Ogress _smash! 20:21, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

The decision to omit Indic scripts is local to WikiProject India. It is not a Wikipedia-wide policy. WikiProject Pakistan doesn't have such a policy. To see whether a page is shared by WikiProject Pakistan or South Asia, we can look at the banner on the talk page but, usually, it is obvious enough from the content. - Kautilya3 (talk) 20:27, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

Kautilya3 Is there a MOS Pakistan, then? I never ran into one. Ogress _smash! 20:28, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

No, I don't think there is a separate MOS for Pakistan. Is there one for India? - Kautilya3 (talk) 20:33, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

Kautilya3 Just the one affiliated with WP:INDICSCRIPT, which states "Indic or regional script", which would presumably include Urdu. Ogress _smash! 23:27, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

Thats why I was saying that, is there need of such consensus to delete Indic script from India related topics? We can't delete Urdu script from Pakistan related topics, we can't delete Bengali script from Bangladesh related topics, we can't delete Sinhlese script from SrilLanka related topics, then why such consensus is only there for India? I'm not against official languages of other nations, but same principle should apply on Indian official languages, WikiProject India-Pakistan-Bangladesh-Sri Lanka are related projects, they all should have same rules. --Human3015 knock knock • 04:25, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

wat Ogress _smash! 04:39, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

(Don't know what that means :-) but note that WP:INDICSCRIPT is specific to WikiProject India. Other projects don't have such policies and so the site-wide policies apply. (As a side note to Human, we have a difference because India doesn't have a national language or script whereas Pakistan does. Nehru could have found a solution if he cared enough, but his attitude was that we have more important things to do than to fight language wars. And, I think he was right!) - Kautilya3 (talk) 10:59, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

lu jun hong

Hi there, I noticed you changed the web page. Lu has nothing to do with ' new religious', its all about Buddhism. Can you pls explain why you keep put - new religious link on it? thanks

Discussions belong on the talk page. Ogress _smash! 21:19, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

Hello

Hello Ogress, would you please email me I have some details on our recent edits. Regards.--Blackknight12 (talk) 04:42, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

@Blackknight12: I'm sorry, but I'm going to need more information, what "recent edits"? Ogress _smash! 04:46, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

Relating to Elara/Ellalan and maybe the investigation.--Blackknight12 (talk) 04:48, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

@Blackknight12: Yeah I'm going to need more information than that. Ogress _smash! 05:46, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

India-Pakistan arbitration amendment request archived

The India-Pakistan arbitration amendment request, which you were listed as a party to, has been archived to [[Wikipedia talk:Requests for arbitration/India-Pakistan. Thank you. For the Arbitration Committee, Jim Carter 06:26, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

A hot chocolate milk for you!

You're making friends lately, don't you? Cheers, Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 05:54, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

I have at least one stalker and many, many people angry at me for disagreeing with their personal conclusions when they are contradicted by fact (which here is "reliable sourcing"). Since this is basically what it is like being a girl IRL... it's honestly not that stressful, or at least I am kind of used to the stress? Count your blessings your name is Joshua and not Joanna. Sadly, I do not drink; maybe I'll have some nice tea instead. Ogress _smash! 05:57, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

I'm proud of my daughter's own will, cleverness, and reasonable judgement, even when I think she's wrong! And I always give her a hug after we've had a clash. Actually, being proud of her has nothing to do with equalling boys, but with being a strong woman, which is a beautifull specimen. Best regards, Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 07:13, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

@Hafspajen: how's the home-decoration lately? Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 07:20, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

Ogress, nice to see that you don't drink beer, me too don't drink beer but I drink Whisky. But sadly Whisky is not there in WikiLove. But Ogress, you take many things too seriously on Wikipedia. You should not get disturbed if any IP is harassing you, we can just ignore it. For example see my talk page's history, one IP was trying to harass me in local language but I just ignored him, not done any complain to anyone. And he stopped automatically. --Human  07:47, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

Notice of Edit warring noticeboard discussion

Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion involving you at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring regarding a possible violation of Wikipedia's policy on edit warring. The thread is Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring#User:Ogress reported by User:HardstyleGB (Result: ). Thank you. HardstyleGB User_Talk:HardstyleGB 22:12, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

Sock Puppeting? For real? Why you don't spend your time in something productive?

This is regarding to your last edition in my talk page (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:HardstyleGB&oldid=673063810)

I edited the talk page of the Valencian article to prove that my editions were legit and they are correct with a trustworthy source. Then, you could make something better with your time and stop reporting users because you don't agree with them. Now you reported me to "sock puppeting" whatever... do something with your life, ok ? As for example improve Wikipedia, not spending your time in this things. As I said before my IP starts with 151 and I've made different editions on Wikipedia with my own IP but talking with you is like talking with the walls. HardstyleGB User_Talk:HardstyleGB 22:55, 25 July 2015 (UTC +1)

@HardstyleGB: You are blatantly and obviously spoofing your IP, unless there's a cadre of individuals in multiple countries speaking in the same nonstandard English you use who also are adding back your edit exactly. And you reported me (incorrectly) to 3RR despite the fact that I have neither violated 3RR nor edit warred, nor have you attempted to discuss the situation with me. Ogress _smash! 21:01, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

@Ogress: Please don't talk like you know what you are talking about and take a look at the editions list on the article and then take a look at the valencian language article in Wikipedia Spain and look by yourself how many editions from different IPs has every day. All of those IPs are mine, huh? If I edited so much times the article why I should need any another IP? Other thing that I am seeing is that they have different IPS. How could I change my IP so many times, huh?

I thought you were smarter. Next time use your time in useful things, and don't revert the work of another users because you want to, without adding anything useful.HardstyleGB User_Talk:HardstyleGB 23:05, 25 July 2015 (UTC +1)

@HardstyleGB: Those edits are made through an IP changer, it's not like it's rocket science. WP:QUACK. Ogress _smash! 21:12, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

@HardstyleGB: If you say it so... for sure. Yes. Now try a proxy VPN in your browser and tell me if you can edit on Wikipedia. Yes? Could you tell me how to change my IP? I've wanted to change it from 7 months ago but still I can't because my ISP doesn't allow me to do it so will you help me how to change it? I mean you are accusing me with making editions as a registered user while my IP starts with 151 and that one with 41... whatever. HardstyleGB User_Talk:HardstyleGB 23:28, 25 July 2015 (UTC +1)

Pinging yourself? Identity-crisis? Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 05:21, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Ellalan (monarch)

Thanks for seeing that. CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Sunasuttuq 10:06, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Name change to Tibeto-Berman AND

Name change is okay. BUT "and" titles are discouraged in Wikipedia. Should the article be split? Have the two or three tribes that immigrated merged with each other? Or are they distinct? If distinct, they probably should have two or three different articles. If they have merged, why do they still have multiple names?

There were other problems with the Assam article, linking "people" to culture article or language articles. I didn't want to go there, but something should be done to clarify link for reader who thinks he's going to a "people" article and winds up in a language or culture article. Student7 (talk) 19:08, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

@Student7: I'd like to delete it, frankly. It's hard to delete India stuff because of a national obsession with race, origin and caste, a matter of endless, grinding warfare on Wikipedia no matter that it's founded in the pseudoscience of the 18th century. I couldn't believe there was an article that characterised the inhabitants of Assam by their facio-cranial structure.

But then again, I live in the United States, where 400 people have been murdered by police in the last year without repercussion, most of them women of color, and where currently half the country is burning historically black churches in outrage that flying pro-slavery flags is being socially ostracised... and so forth. So I won't throw stones but maybe we should PROD? Ogress _smash! 19:14, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

I'm all in favor of documenting what is real, whether that be Tibeto-Burmese, or setting fire to black women. Just thought you knew about the Northeast corridor people. I would only delete article if it is not WP:RS sourced. I don't care IF they call themselves Tibeto-Burmese as long as that is a true statement, And no, neither you nor I are required to expand or split the article. I don't have the background to do any of that. I hoped you had.

As you know, we get a lot of sloppy articles on India, with people writing in perfectly good faith WP:SYNTH articles, poorly sourced or not sourced at all. I don't mind giving fair warning on those and then deleting them after a time.

It seem clear to me that there has been immigration from someplace. That ought to be documented if possible. If these people still are ghetto-ized (by Western standards), that is fine with me. But if they have assimilated and the portrayal of them as a separate entity is simply touristy WP:SPAM, that is another matter. Like Western Native Americans selling pottery in "native" costume, then going to the local sports bar in blue jeans and watching the Super Bowl. Hard to take that sort of behavior seriously. Student7 (talk) 16:23, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Concerns about an editor's long-term behavior

There is nothing wrong checking another users edits for possible problems as per WP:WIKIHOUNDING. Where it becomes a problem is if you start following them to articles that they edit outside of where the original problem was. CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Sunasuttuq 11:54, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

Tournadre/THL

By the way, a minor point about this. I don't think the THL system ever included ä (I could be wrong about that). ä is used in the system Tournadre described in an appendix to Manual of Standard Tibetan. Tournadre was also involved in the THL System, too, so I guess one could also think of them as two phases in the development of the same thing. But there definitely is no e vs. é distinction in THL. /e/ and /ɛ/ are both written "é" if they are right at the end of the word (e.g. Dorjé) and are both written "e" otherwise (e.g. Drepung); that is, the distinction between the two phonemes is never made in THL.

As I was saying on Talk:Songtsän Gampo, I always hoped Wikipedia would become a bastion of the old Tournadre system, but at this point I'm sure that bird has flown.– Greg Pandatshang (talk) 22:49, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

THL is Tournadré revised. ä is not in THL, that's why I voted in support of moving the page to Songtsen Gampo. I need someone to move it because I'm not an admin. Ogress _smash! 23:40, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

l'*sigh* I liked the old Tournadre ...

P.S. it's Tournadre, not Tournadré, isn't it? – Greg Pandatshang (talk) 15:31, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

@Greg Pandatshang: Yes, I was on the edge of a migraine and it was affecting my ability to think clearly as well as see clearly, hence all the errors I made last night. I stopped editing after realising I was not just having vision issues, I was also not thinking straight. Ogress _smash! 15:35, 28 July 2015 (UTC)