User talk:Numulunj pilgae

Привет!!! Проект мокшанской википедии надо развивать в инкубаторе:

[1]

Как только появится более-менне достаточное число страниц (хотя бы 10, а лучше 50), то можно будет инициировать голосование о создании самостоятельной мокшанской википедии. Скорее всего, с помошью активистов из русской википедии, все проголосуют за и тогла уже появится полноценная мокшанская википедия. Очень бы хотелось чтобы вы помогли бы найти активистов для других финно-угорских википедий - марийской [2] и эрзянской [3]. Заготовки пон ним уже есть. С уважением, --Üñţïf̣ļëŗ (see also:ә? Ә!) 08:31, 29 September 2007 (UTC) Если что, пишите.

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Спасибо за ответ, Untifler

Дело в том, что я просто потерялся вначале в бесконечных правилах wiki. До сих пор с трудом понимаю устройство. Очень хочу поскорее запустить мокшанскую wiki. Я сделаю, конечно 10 статей. Думаю, быстро. Марийцев, увы, знакомых нет. С эрзянами всё просто - они более активны, особенно на первых порах. С мокшанами будет сложнее - они нелегки на подъём. Если поддержите для запроса на инкубатор мои статьи - буду бесконечно благодарен. Ещё раз спасибо. Надолго не прощаюсь.

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212.176.248.70 15:32, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Чтобы редактировать на инкубаторе, статус администратора не нужен, ну а как дело дойдет до полноценной википедии, вопрос я думаю не встанет. Вполне лоично что админом там станет самый активный пользователь владеющий мокшанским языком.

О марийцах - а есть какие-либо форумы, посвященные финоугорским языкам? вот бы оттуда их всех заманить. кроме того,у горномарийского наверняка найдутся свои патриоты!!! --Üñţïf̣ļëŗ (see also:ә? Ә!) 16:03, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

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Отлично! С инкубатором, значит, проще. А статьи туда годятся в любом виде или по определённым канонам (картинки +-, ссылки +-)? Как их размещать, если честно, не понял. Просто заходить на [4] и через editing вставлять тексты?? Были какие-то форумы, но поумирали. Надо мне потормошить mordva.ru и возможно я сам вспомню какие-то ссылки. Живо то, что упомянуто в статье об эрзянском языке на английском - ссылки на ресурсы с текстами на финно-угорских языках. --Numulunj pilgae 07:51, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Moksha language

Зачем вы добавляете "Современный латинский алфавит" в эту статью? Никакого мокшанского латинского алфавита не существует. Единственный алфавит, используемый для мокшанского языка - алфавит на основе кириллицы. Geoalex 10:14, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

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Алфавит для мокшанского не на основе кириллицы, он русский. И в мокшанском используется русская офография. В ней нет ничего применимого для отображения мокшанской фонетики. Это ведёт к укоренению в сознании и детей и взрослых ошибочного написания и произношения. Для мокшанского удобно использовать современный финский вариант латиницы. Здесь всё так же ясно и просто как и в ситуации с молдавским и румынским, финским и карельским. Но, поскольку, официального разрешения на использование латиницы нет и, уверяю, никогда не будет - мы указываем его рядом, как альтернативный. Вы ведь не призываете уничтожить статьи о романизации русского? А поскольку издательское дело отходит на второй план в свете использования интернет, поэтому и современный мокшанский латинский алфавит останется на месте. И будут линки на статьи и сайты на латинице. Numulunj pilgae 13:46, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Не имеет никакого значения, какая, по чьему-либо мнению, письменность лучше для мокшанского языка. Имеет значение только то, что у мокшанского языка один официальный алфавит. Это факт. А Википедия, как и любая эницклопедия, должна отражать только факты, а не чьи-либо предпочтения. Вы можете написать: одна из версий латинизации мокшанского алфавита, но никак не Modern latin alphabet. Geoalex 08:23, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

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Факты? Взгляните, что отражает венгерская Википедия по поводу Moksha language. Взгляните на татарский язык. Латиницу для татарского тоже никто официально не утверждал. Если мнение главы республики Мордовия важнее, чем мнение Ласло Керестеша, Габора Зайца, финно-угорского общества Кастрена, Джона Вогана (IPA) что тогда факты? Я не могу написать "одна из версий латинизации мокшанского алфавита", потому, что мокшанского алфавита нет, есть только русский, скорее это может быть названо "альтернативным латинским алфавитом. А почему Вам так важен этот пункт? Вы говорите по-мокшански? --Numulunj pilgae 08:57, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

1. Мокшанский алфавит есть, он утверждён в 1927 году, просто в нём те же буквы, что и в русском. Вы же не будете утверждать, что нету английского или голландского алфавита, хотя они графически ничем не отличаются от латинского? 2. Не путайте транскрипцию, используемую лингвистами (тем более в Венгрии), с официальным алфавитом. Ради бога, добавляйте в статью различные транскрипционные системы, но не вводите читатаелй Википедии в заблуждение, что якобы существует какой-то "мокшанский латинский алфавит". Geoalex 11:10, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

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Мы говорим о разных вещах. С датами здесь отдельный разговор. С транскрипцией, используемой лингвистами я ничего не путаю. Мокшанский латинский алфавит существует. Существует так же, как существует Курдистан. Для Вас его нет, потому что он официально не признан. Для меня - есть, я знаю, что там целая страна, которая в состоянии войны с Турцией и Ираком. Но я не курд, я - мокша. А Вы - кто? Вы не ответили. Numulunj pilgae 14:59, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Если мокшанский латинский алфавит существует, то приведите ссылки на книги или сайты (серьёзные сайты, а не чьи-нибудь блоги), где он используется. А то похоже, что он существует только в вашем воображении. А по национальности я русский, только какое это имеет значение? Geoalex 05:24, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

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Пожалуйста. http://www.langbridge.com На этом сайте предоставляют платные услуги по переводу, но есть и free quote. Они используют ту же латиницу, что и http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/definition/Moksha-english/. Та же латиница в мокшанском словаре на http://www.torama.ru/index.php3?pg=voc

Список изданий на http://www.ling.helsinki.fi/uhlcs/metadata/corpus-metadata/uralic-lgs/mordvin/ книги, приводимые на http://www.ling.helsinki.fi/uhlcs/readme-all/README-uralic-lgs.html#C343 обратите внимание на Character encoding

Children's book "Jesus friend of children" "Jesus friend of children" in Mordvin-moksha language. Arapovich, Borislav & Mattelmäki, Vera (eds.). ISBN 952-9790-23-6, ISBN 91-88394-94-8. 65 pp. Institute for Bible Translation. Stockholm & Helsinki 1995.

Document type: running text. Size of the corpus: 5,935 words, 45,694 characters. Character encoding: ISO 8859-1 (Latin-1).

Gospel of Mark Gospel of Mark in Mordvin-Moksha language. ISBN 952-9790-21-X, ISBN 91-88794-13-X. 78 pp. Institute for Bible Translation. Stockholm & Helsinki 1995.

Document type: running text. Size of the corpus:11870 words, 88703 characters. Character encoding: ISO 8859-1 (Latin-1).

Мокшанско-финский словарь латиницей Mokshalais-suomalainen sanakirja: Eeva Herrala ja Aleksandr Feoktistov. Toinen painos Saranskissa. 220 s. (Rueter: technical consultation in Saransk), 2000

Ссылка на таблицу элементов на той же мокшанской латинице на сайте чешских любителей химии http://xerius.jergym.hiedu.cz/~canovm/vyhledav/varian17/moksa.html

http://www.logosquotes.org/pls/vvolant/seng.lfrasi?lm=EN&lang=MO&iniz= Цитаты великих на латинице мокша, там же толковый словарь

Национальность иногда значение имеет. Вам всё равно. А я знаю, что если не поднимать престиж языка и не доказывать, что он полноценен и применим везде - то на нём перестанут говорить.Numulunj pilgae 14:09, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Да уж, сайт чешских любиетелй химии (да и прочие) очень авторитетный источник по мордовским языкам. Ну, заниматься откатами я не буду, вас всё равно не переубедишь, логические аргументы на вас, к сожалению, не дайствуют. А поддерживать национальные языки надо, вот только добавление в Википедию "Мокшанских латиниц" этому делу мало спсобствует. Geoalex 09:56, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

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Упрямство - мокшанская национальная черта. Спасибо за внимание. Numulunj pilgae 10:56, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

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Thankyou very much

THANKYOU SO Numulunj pilgae for your Excellent Translation effort!

I am very very Grateful.

May God Bless You!

I have expressed my support for the request for Moksha Wikipedia.

Yours Sincerely, From --Jose77 (talk) 21:58, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

AfD nomination of Mokshan logographic script

I have nominated Mokshan logographic script, an article you created, for deletion. I do not think that this article satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion, and have explained why at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mokshan logographic script. Your opinions on the matter are welcome at that same discussion page; also, you are welcome to edit the article to address these concerns. Thank you for your time. --ざくら木 17:38, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

I urge you to comment there--there are some concerns that might affect some of your other contributions. DGG (talk) 02:23, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Your recent edits

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Mokshan script

Hello, Numulunj pilgae. You have new messages at Travellingcari's talk page.
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again :) TravellingCari 14:25, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

AfD nomination of Moksha numerals

I have nominated Moksha numerals, an article you created, for deletion. I do not think that this article satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion, and have explained why at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Moksha numerals. Your opinions on the matter are welcome at that same discussion page; also, you are welcome to edit the article to address these concerns. Thank you for your time. TravellingCari 13:52, 8 October 2008 (UTC) TravellingCari 13:52, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

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Erzya and Moksha Mordvins

Please comment: Talk:Mordvins#A_way_forward. Thanks!--Termer (talk) 16:34, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

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Sorry

Hey, sorry for the mishap, I must've clicked on the wrong link to give you that notice. I apologize; you did nothing wrong so don't worry! Keep editing! –Turian^talk 09:19, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

MfD nomination of User:Numulunj pilgae/Mokshan script

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Ways to improve Iosif Cherapkin

Hello, Numulunj pilgae,

Thank you for creating Iosif Cherapkin.

I have tagged the page as having some issues to fix, as a part of our page curation process and note that:

The references for this article do not establish the notability for this person.

This article needs more references to satisfy notability for biography of living persons. What is needed are references giving significant coverage about this person, and independent of them, in multiple secondary sources which are reliable - WP:RS; that is your guide.
You may also read WP:PRIMARY which details the limited permitted usage of primary sources.
Pages of photographs, mentions of this person on pages about other topics do not garner notability.

A more comprehensive guide is WP:BASIC ... People are presumed notable if they have received significant coverage in multiple published secondary sources that are reliable, intellectually independent of each other, and independent of the subject. Lack of attention to the above is likely to mean that the article may not be suitable for inclusion.

The tags can be removed by you or another editor once the issues they mention are addressed. If you have questions, leave a comment here and begin it with {{Re|Whiteguru}}. Remember to sign your reply with ~~~~. For broader editing help, please visit the Teahouse.

Delivered via the Page Curation tool, on behalf of the reviewer.

Whiteguru (talk) 07:28, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

@Whiteguru: It is a special case. Iosif Cherapkin is the creator of Moksha literary language. After Stalin's Great Purge, he had NOT been posthumously rehabilitated. So the information is scarce and mostly limited to old Soviet archived documents 1920s, 1930s like this ones Iosif Cherapkin in Wikisource. There is no article about him in ru.wiki and may be never be. It's a political issue. Please help to link the wikisource to his article i cannot manage it. I will improve the article but it needs some time. The existing article was compiled mostly of old Soviet Mokshen Pravda newspapers in Moksha language (issues for about 10 years. Hope you understand.----Numulunj pilgae (talk) 08:04, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

I appreciate your dedication and plea for integrity. I am happy to wait for you to find more sources. Appreciate this is a challenging situation - I did visit the other pages linked and read them. Take time, and be patient. I will see what can be done with wikisource. --Whiteguru (talk) 08:10, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

MfD nomination of Wikipedia:WikiProject Mokshas

Wikipedia:WikiProject Mokshas, a page which you created or substantially contributed to, has been nominated for deletion. Your opinions on the matter are welcome; you may participate in the discussion by adding your comments at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:WikiProject Mokshas and please be sure to sign your comments with four tildes (~~~~). You are free to edit the content of Wikipedia:WikiProject Mokshas during the discussion but should not remove the miscellany for deletion template from the top of the page; such a removal will not end the deletion discussion. Thank you. casualdejekyll 16:13, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Category:Moksha people

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Narchat

Hi @Numulunj pilgae: I just reviewed Narchat, a great wee article on a 12th century queen. I noticed that refs 2 and 4 don't have any sources with them. The Harv error is "Harv error: link from CITEREFShterenshis2013 doesn't point to any citation.". Can you two sources in. Thanks. scope_creep^Talk 15:16, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

I have amended refs. Thanx --Numulunj pilgae (talk) 16:06, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

Mokshas

Hello, I just wanted to let you know that I moved the content you created at Wikipedia:WikiProject Mokshas to the following draft page: Draft:Mokshas. You are welcome to continue working on the content there. This was done per the discussion at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:WikiProject Mokshas, because the content of this page appeared to be a draft article, not a WikiProject. So, the only problem was the naming of the page.

However, I also think you should be aware that Wikipedia already has an article on Mokshas. So, you might be developing some redundant content. Of course, you're free to merge your content with the existing content in any way you see fit, or even propose that the existing article be replaced by your article, if appropriate. I just thought you should be aware of that, if you weren't already. Cheers. —⁠ScottyWong⁠— 17:16, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

Thank you very much! The problem was that the old article Mokshas depended on Mordvnis article. Since it is now clear the Mordvins was only a Soviet artificial ethnicity and Mokshas are not Mordvins anymore a new article will be needed. Anyway the project is not cancelled. Thank you once again! --Numulunj pilgae (talk) 19:16, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

I have sent you a note about a page you started

Hello, Numulunj pilgae

Thank you for creating Podlyasovo.

User:North8000, while examining this page as a part of our page curation process, had the following comments:

Good start

To reply, leave a comment here and begin it with {{Re|North8000}}. Please remember to sign your reply with ~~~~ .

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North8000 (talk) 01:46, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

@North8000: I plan to make short or sometimes not (including history facts, ethnological info and epic info) articles about ancient Moksha speaking places, since I collect the language info. Thanx --Numulunj pilgae (talk) 05:11, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

Cool. Thanks for your work. North8000 (talk) 10:42, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

Finnic and Mordvin

It looks like the source you used doesn't claim that Mordvin is literally in the Finnic grouping, but forms the family of Finno-Mordvinic? This was my impression from a short reading of the article. --ValtteriLahti12 (talk) 09:02, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

Actually not. Mordvin language never existed, as well as Mordvins (see new version about Soviet project United Mordvin people). It's a derogatory term, see Mordva (slur). As far as I understand Piispanen (see link in Mordvinic languages/Classification section) reports scholars now tend to define Finno-Saami-Moksha unity as Proto-Finnic. This theory is actually not new one, but seems it has prevailed. Mari language has been classified as Permic.

--Numulunj pilgae (talk) 12:26, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

Harvard citations and some others

Hello! I see you’ve been very prolific in creating articles relating to the Volga Finns. I see you’re doing good work with sourcing too. Just one comment though: some of the Harvard references you wrote have errors. I attempted to correct them here, here and here. References using the template {{harvnb}} need to have the SURNAME of the author and the YEAR of the publication, otherwise they will not link correctly. You cannot use the attribute author or authors for this, you need to use last, author-last, etc.

In the first one (Mordvins (term for Jews)) I’m not sure if you wanted to reference the „Selika” (sorry I’m not very well-versed on the topic and I’m not sure what it is) with that reference I deleted. If you wanted to reference something else then feel free to readd it correctly.

Also in the last article I mentioned (Moksha name) you added the Mordwinisches Wörterbuch Helsinki, Suomalais-ugrilainen seura, 1990–1996] with Heikki Paasonen as author. From what I see the dictionary was name long after his death, and only based on his materials. So consider adding the actual authors and editors who compiled the data as authors, and maybe mention Heikki in the title.

Cheers and good luck on future work! MichaelTheSlav (talk) 16:08, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

Hi. Since the Volga Finns' history is a tabula rasa I had to create number of articles to start contributing to Mokshas (Wikipedia:WikiProject Russia). Seliksa Tale is actually parts of an archaic Moksha chronicle recorded from two rune singers (story tellers) which had died in the last century and they are not the authors. Parts of the Tale were used in scholarly works but not that part I referred to. The tale parts known were first published in Moksha language in Moksha journal. I will check similar sources and amend it.

As to Paasonen's dictionary it's easy to change the author name to more than 5 editors, no problem.

One more thing I would like to ask you about as a native Polish speaker. I believe some Mokshas remained in Poland after Puresh#Massacre_before_Battle_of_Legnica in 13th. c since surname Moksza (or similar) can be found in Poland. Please advise what sources should I check to find their possible traces as my Polish is poor (toponimical, onomastic, ethnological sources in Polish). Thank you for your amendments and thank you in advance for your possible comments re Polish sources. --Numulunj pilgae (talk) 05:12, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

Hi. It seems like an interesting topic. Unfortunately I don’t have the time right now to look through sources, but later (within the next one to four months perhaps) I’ll look for them and message you if I could find anything.

But I’m not sure if you’re right in what you wrote. Firstly Poland did not have surnames at that time even among the nobility. If any Mokshas remained here they’d probably assimilate very fast given their small numbers and forget their roots. Secondly, I searched through „Moksza” and similar surnames here and the only thing I found was „Mokszyński”, but only 17 people have this surname and it is surely just a misspelling of „Mokrzyński”. I’ve found „Mordwa”, 149 people have this surname, and „Mordwiński”, 24 people. Also from other sources it seems that at one point „Mordwin” was a Polish noble surname, but there doesn’t seem to be any other people of this surname in Poland currently. I know „Mordva” and „Mordvin” are artificial terms but I’m not sure how old its usage is. Was it used before the 20th century or is it a Soviet product?

Also what is the etymology of the word? Because if it’s a Russian exonym it could be a native Slavic formation, then it would’ve been easy for it to be formed also independently in Poland or in Ruthenia asf. I did a brief search and didn’t find a Slavic root similar to this though.

Anyway if this surname comes from the ethnic name at all it’s more probable that some Mokshas or Erzyas settled in Ruthenia at one point, became boyars and were subsequently Polonized. I’m not sure if I will find anything on the topic in Polish literature TBH. We didn’t really have contacts so far east and from my brief search there doesn’t seem to be any literature on the topic of Volga Finns at all. But if I find anything related I will message you.

Cheers! MichaelTheSlav (talk) 18:42, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

Hi, Thank you for the comments. The guys looking for their ancestry from Poland were Mokszan. That was their surname and of course they had Polish names. Yes, normally there were no surnames in those times but seems some nicknames might have preserved. So it does come from the ethnic name. I'm still working on Mordens article, which was the name of a tribal unity of people with different ethnicities before 13th c User:Numulunj pilgae/sandbox. Then the alliance split and remained only the name which became obsolete and then derogatory for Jews. The etymology ultimately has connection to Hebrew name Mordecai which spread among Mordens. It might have been a dynasty that is traceable to Russian noble family Mordvinov. The term is definitely not Slavic as it was mentioned in 6th AD. Thanks again. Will be glad to get a comment from you if you ever have an idea on the subject. --Numulunj pilgae (talk) 20:58, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

I have sent you a note about a page you started

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Thank you for creating Mordovka.

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Hi. I might expand the article but User Loew Galitz seems to have some personal issues with this coin deleting info on hoards and removing partly the main info. He insists the info is "not in the source" but it is. --Numulunj pilgae (talk) 18:00, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

I have sent you a note about a page you started

Hello, Numulunj pilgae

Thank you for creating Ancient Noronshasht.

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Nice work

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North8000 (talk) 02:08, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

Gelonians and Mordvins moved to draftspace

An article you recently created, Gelonians and Mordvins, is not suitable as written to remain published. It needs more citations from reliable, independent sources. (?) Information that can't be referenced should be removed (verifiability is of central importance on Wikipedia). I've moved your draft to draftspace (with a prefix of "Draft:" before the article title) where you can incubate the article with minimal disruption. When you feel the article meets Wikipedia's general notability guideline and thus is ready for mainspace, please click on the "Submit your draft for review!" button at the top of the page. Onel5969 ^{TT me} 12:38, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

A well-known professor's monograph kept in President Yeltsin's Library. What do you mean by "verifiability"? To exhumate president Yeltsin and check his fingerprints, or special approval of acting US or Russia presidents, or both? --Numulunj pilgae (talk) 16:22, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

Please also see this. Mellk (talk) 20:26, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

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Moksha names

Hello!

I see that you've made quite a contribution to the Moksha names page. May I ask which sources you used for the names, and their etymologies? I'm trying to make a spreadsheet of the personal names of the diverse peoples of the Volga. I tried looking for onomastic books, but I've had no luck yet.

~ Gibby01 (talk) 20:29, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

Hi, sorry for the late reply. All the sources I used are listed in the page. I checked the names origin and marked them as of Greek origin if they were Greek and Hebrew (like Mordukai) if they were definitely not of Russian Orthodox origin basing on prof. Mokshin's work on early Jewish influence. Mostly the names origin was taken from the sources listed in the article. --Numulunj pilgae (talk) 13:48, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

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