This is an archive of past discussions with User:NikoSilver. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.
You have recently added highly provocative content to the Wikipedia page Image:Ferretti 68'.jpg, which is likely to make other Wikipedians envious and thereby provide scandal to them ([1]). You are now being asked to reconsider this type of behavior. You are welcome to continue covering the topic of luxury yachts in Wikipedia, but instead of just writing about them you should consider actually inviting a few fellow Wikipedians on one. Please see Wikipedia's retribution policy, which states that Wikipedia is communism and that if luxury yachts are not shared in a brotherly fashion with fellow Wikipedians, they risk being swallowed whole by a giant shark some day.
Did it occur to any of you that since I said I took that photo, I couldn't have been onboard but on the port-side? But then again, I could have been on a bigger one... And, no, you can't enslave da captain. You have to ask his wife first. :-) •NikoSilver•19:23, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Hmmm.... I had heard somebody had bought the British queen's yacht, now we know who ;-) Regarding your question sorry for awnsering so late, I'm quite oberated by true-life work, unfortunately :-( I've been looking your article, great work. As for info. you may (or may not) find interesting, 1) The group's shareholders have deliberated in September to put in the Italian stock exchange a maximum of 45 million of shares, for a value each of 0.02 euros. Up to the 35% of the group may in this way be ceded. At the moment the 70% of the group is controlled by Permira[2] And see also this press release in English, on how Permira bought Ferretti in 2002.[3] And the full Business Week partly mentioned through the Ferretti website [4]. For very new info, Palmira, appears to have just sold Ferretti to Candover, see the Times, Oct. 28 [5]. Hope this is of some use. Ciao,--Aldux23:17, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
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Hah! I thought you'd say that. Just wanted to give you a little more hope. Here you are: 195x100=19,500 more please. Oh, and I doubt you want to force each side scrutinize all of its links for possible flaws... •NikoSilver•18:58, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
Actually, please do. I read all of those. The only possible flaw is that some of them are written by ethnic Macedonians. But then there are some written by Greeks too. - Francis Tyers·08:39, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
And I think you mean 7*100 = 700, but not really because mailing list posts don't count. So thats 7 - 6 = 1 * 100 = 100. Quite an easy feat.
So at most 28. But some of those are duplicates, and some are irrelevant. Some are cancelled out by the fact that the author uses it in a quote by a Greek, whereas when he is writing he uses only "Macedonian language". If you want I'll go through and find how many there really are, then we can continue this clown parade. - Francis Tyers·08:46, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Look, I am not trying to rename the article to Slavomacedonian language or to Macedonian Slavic. I am just saying that it is not as rare as you want to make it sound. You can't just count dozens of times the UN or the COE, as you have listed it multiple times above. Indeed a 'clown' parade (in the sense of 'clone', coz you've cloned all of your sources). 21 books (including Pulton, Lunt, Wilkinson) plus the Ethnologue is a lot. It definitely doesn't deserve being removed from the article. •NikoSilver•14:07, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Cloned all my sources, nonsense. Each of those is a unique url, with a unique mention. You know I could find another hundred anyway to replace those. But I don't need to as I have made my point. The point being that the name "*Slav*Macedonian" is vastly, overwhelmingly, not used. I'm not talking about disambiguation here (which we have in the form of a disambiguation note), but I'm talking about use as a name, a regular point of reference. I'm willing to make another wager, that the times that Poulton, Lunt and Wilkinson mention "Macedonian language" (without disambiguation) is greater than the amount of times they mention "*Slavic*Macedonian language". I'll start the betting with a factor of ten. You are welcome to raise the stakes. - Francis Tyers·14:43, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
How is every single document of the UN or COE a unique source? You'd lose the bet with Wilkinson at least, coz I happen to have read it, and the guy says something extremely reasonable like: This book uses the term Macedo-Slav for the Macedonians of Slavic origin and their language. He says this once, and from then on he uses Macedo-Slav dozens of times. I'll find the exact quote for you. •NikoSilver•14:56, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Niko, pleaaaase. Stop it already, you lost this, and you know it...:-)
You know I'm quite neutral at heart on this one; in fact I was initially quite for a full coverage of "Slavomacedonian" and the like in the header. But Francis has convinced me. I've checked his references, and I've checked yours. Fut.Perf.☼17:01, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Yes you are, but there's more to it. Again, I am not trying to rename the article. I am just listing a fairly used alternative name, as is the convention in WP, and as we've done in hundreds of other articles where there is much less preminence. NikoSilver11:55, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
"Die bulgarisch-jugoslawische Kontroverse um Makedonien 1967-1982" is what you are presumably referring to? I'd have to see the rest of the article. He may be doing "simple disambiguation", or he may be using it as a name. - Francis Tyers·17:25, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Excuse me, but I am not searching for 'academics'. I thought we have cleared it out that we are just searching for usage in English. CNN is very indicative on that aspect. NikoSilver12:01, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
And since you mentioned Britannica, check how they disambiguate it here: [9], while ofcourse they don't do that for any other language. •NikoSilver•17:24, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Well that's the part where you're wrong m'lad. The dab on the top is one thing, and the alternative names another thing. I'll be back later... •NikoSilver•17:30, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Preface, p.vii: "The name Macedo-Slav is italicized throughout because of its association with J.Cvijić. It is a better descriptive term than 'Macedonian' which is often used to refer to all nationals of the Jugoslav Republic of Macedonia, including Slav, Albanian and Turkish elements."
p.177 "A.Belić and V.Jagić -both Serbians- had established the fact that the Macedo-Slav dialect was transitional between Serb and Bulgarian."
p.276-7 "He [A.Meillet] pointed out that the Serbian statistics had erred in referring to the Macedo-Slav dialect as Serbo-Croat."
p.257 "But since the Macedo-Slav dialect was regarded as a branch of Serbo-Croat, the map lost a great deal of its value."
p.307 "The language of the Slavs of Macedonia was classified [by the Naval Intelligence Division (UK) Maps, in 1944] as Macedo-Slavand it was shown in Jugoslav and Greek Macedonia but not in Bulgaria." WOW!
p.331 "As n illustration of the analogy between the Serb, Macedo-Slav and Bulgarian languages, Weigand compared the dialect of Bitolj with that of Sofia (Sop dialect) and Serbo-Croat."
Nice to see the UK navy classified it as such too. :-) Apart from the name, I definitely urge you to get a hold of this magnificent book. It has an extremely detailed analysis of all ethnographic maps ever produced in the region. I've never come across so much condensed information about Macedonian people/languages/religions before. No doubt, Wilkinson is the number one source for the whole region. •NikoSilver•21:36, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
New
Note to outsiders: Francis and I have a long history which allows us to be both uncivil to each-other and sarcastic on the (pretence?) basis of mutual respect and humor. :-) If you don't belong in this cabal, don't be offended, and do not indulge in doing the same.
Ok Niko, first of all, Wilkinson is a reliable source. I'll give you that. I'll give you that in the book you have by him, (dated 1951) he uses "Macedonian-Slav" to describe the language. However, this was before the language was entirely standardised, and also, in the 1952 paper I have, he uses "Macedonian language" (no Slav). I'm not sure what you're trying to gain with pasting all those links, because at least "http://www.cambridge.org/catalogue/catalogue.asp?isbn=0521223156&ss=exc" <-- this one, doesn't mention "Macedonian Slavic" at all! In fact, it mentions: "The name of the Macedonian language is also disputed by the Greeks and Bulgarians, but we shall follow the established Slavists’ convention and use “Macedonian”, since there is no other language competing for this name (2.2.3)." - Francis Tyers·10:40, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
How did I find them? Click on the spider-like gizmo below my scuba pic to see who gave them to me. (I'll get back on Fran's assertions too when I receive the proper input). NikoSilver10:42, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Fran: Correct on that one link from Cambridge. I was confused by this quote:
Moreover, not all the properties of the languages form such intra-Slavic genetic groupings. Balkan languages like Bulgarian and Macedonian (Slavic), Romanian (Romance) and Albanian (an Indo-European language-isolate), in a geographically coherent area, are genetically part of different sub-branches of Indo-European, but show similar post-posed article forms.
...but apparently 'Slavic' goes to both Bulgarian and that other. I don't remove the paper, however, due to the exact quote you posted, which reflects it is an convention of Slavists -hence it accepts that the academic community has not consented yet on the name. As for Wilkinson (and other sources of the 50's), I think that 55 years are a very small time for a language to be renamed completely. For historical purposes and only (if we didn't have contemporary sources) the Slavic compound should stay in the intro. We can reflect that in the text if you wish. Now go ahead and scrutinize the rest of them if you wish. (oh, I saw you already did -edit conflict) I'll get back with responses and I'm pasting more later today. NikoSilver11:11, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
It being a Slavists convention does not exclude it from being other conventions. It may not be a Classics convention, but then the Classisists probably don't talk about that Macedonian language at all. They only talk about the other Macedonian language, thus not requiring disambiguation. - Francis Tyers·11:24, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
You want me to remove it? I think my point is clear: Slavists convention (not even linguists). You didn't respond about the historical issue which also shows that such sources are unfairly excluded from the net. NikoSilver11:39, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Yes, remove it. Regarding the historical issue, I have presented sources from many decades. "55 years are a very small time for a language to be renamed completely", not so. It can be done in a very short amount of time. The problem with your historical point is that I've presented sources from the year after showing Wilkinson using Macedonian language sans "*Slav*". We have a wide range of historical and contemporary sources showing that the name is and was "Macedonian language". Perhaps a note could go in the Ancient Macedonian language article stating that prior to the inauguration of the Macedonian language, typically the Ancient Macedonian language was referred to as such? But even then I'm not so sure that is right, and how much pedigree "Ancient Macedonian language" has as a descriptor or name for that language. - Francis Tyers·12:07, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Still, the term has wide historical usage which can be found in pre-internet sources. Apart from that, Slavic, is used for apparently a number of reasons:
I'm not sure how much I have to do to convince you that I don't share their vision of history. Perhaps you could send me a badge to wear? "This user subscribes to the international historical consensus on the history of Macedonia" ? Kind of large for a badge though, maybe a sign? You could write it multilingually in Greek, English and Macedonian!
You need to convince me that your subscription to the international historic consensus, your concerns about stability, and your concerns about those other fellow's self-determination rights, are a reason to not censor their rightful concerns from every f***ing article related to their counterparts. NikoSilver13:43, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
A million times, we have a DAB, I added it. Some people didn't want "Slavic" there, but I added it, because it is a very useful disambiguation tool in that place. It doesn't need disambiguating from Albanian or Turkish as they have their own names!
Whatever they are giving you, we double it. I only offered to remove the dab note because you were concerned about it. Prepare to be dazzled by my sources if you don't accept the compromise... NikoSilver15:41, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Awww! Just checked e-mail history! Seriously I hadn't noticed the whole message and thought you hadn't received mine! About the PS, don't worry, an associate will contact you soon... NikoSilver16:38, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
You have yet to show that "*Slav*Macedonian*Slav*" as a name of the language is as widely used either now or then than simply "Macedonian language". Most of the sources you have come up with are of a low quality (with some exceptions). But the exceptions (as I think you've said before), prove the rule.
Here is my final compromise (yes, another one), we change the disambiguation note to say: "This article is about the Slavic Macedonian language. For the unrelated, non-Slavic language spoken in the ancient world, see Ancient Macedonian language." What say you? - Francis Tyers·12:41, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Think about it for a while (a day or longer if necessary). It gets your "name" [Slavic Macedonian language N] into the first line of the article. While I just see it as a disambiguation device [Slavic ADJ [Macedonian language N]]. Suits both of us. - Francis Tyers·12:47, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
I disagree with your rationale pointing to a necessity for a compromise. I am not rejecting your proposal first hand though. Let's wait a couple of days to see how many more f***ing sources will satisfy your FYROM-payroll [part of body]. Shall we? I'll even do a cleanup of those already posted and paste them alltogether below. NikoSilver13:35, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Well, both myself and Fut. Perf. disagree with the current version, and while you may have numerical superiority, I think it is better to have a version we all agree on. I was presenting this as a possible version that we could all agree on, as per my rationale above. - Francis Tyers·13:44, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
There is another compromise version that comes to mind, but I suggest you let me source this further. Numerical superiority is inferior to arguments/sources and you know I don't count on that. NikoSilver14:50, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
It does, but not twice. The full quote is "it has been suspected that the arrest is because Vottaris, a (Slav) Macedonian, has been transmitting traditional songs and dances in the Macedonian...". NikoSilver11:18, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
You left out the important bit! "because Vottaris, a (Slav) Macedonian, has been transmitting traditional songs and dances in the Macedonian language on air." - Francis Tyers·12:07, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
P.Zografski also prepared a number of primers written in the local vernacular of Western Macedonia. In the early 1870s, V. Mačukovski, a teacher in Ohrid and Salonica, prepared one of the first primers that used the western Slav Macedonian dialects.
Oh? How about this then: "Macedonian means here Slavic Macedonian, in the sense it is used in the science of linguistics."NikoSilver11:31, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Both terms from the Defence Academy of the UK. This article is very interesting in general. Read it if you have time, as it explains some deeper roots of the problem... (I wish they could see that...)
Doesn't mention "Macedonian-Slav language", it mentions "Macedonian language", and also "Macedonian-Slav tongue". This is a neutral source as it could easily be taken as supporting both of our sides. - Francis Tyers·16:52, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Lindstedt is pretty cool, I have a paper by him if you are interested? [Lindstedt, J. (2000). “Linguistic Balkanization: Contact-induced change by mutual reinforcement”, D. G. Gilbers & al. (eds.) Languages in Contact, (Studies in Slavic and General Linguistics, 28.), Amsterdam & Atlanta, GA, 2000: Rodopi, 231–246.] He doesn't use the term "Slavic Macedonian language". He calls it "Slavic Macedonian studies", this does not necessarily mean the language. You'll note that in all the bibliography entries, "Macedonian" (sans *Slav*) is used. In his paper he uses "Macedonian language". - Francis Tyers·16:56, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
This talks about that language in Greece, and is puzzled as to if it is distinct or same to the one up north. (from Europa diversa)
"While far from being satisfactory, such a ‘solution’ has the virtue of accommodating the position of a member state, such a Greece, which appears to have a deeply ingrained problem with accepting the very existence of linguistic diversity on it s territory." Haha. Having said that, it doesn't mention "*Macedonian* language", and it only mentions Slav-Macedonian in the context of Greece. Now, how do you know if this relates to this or Macedonian language this? - Francis Tyers·17:11, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Would support an intro including "Macedonian (Slavonic)" provided it was put in the correct context, as I have outlined below. - Francis Tyers·17:13, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Would support an intro including "Macedonian (Slavonic)" provided it was put in the correct context, as I have outlined below. - Francis Tyers·17:13, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Actually we have lots more from down under with that name (AU recognizes the language as such -and this only is ENOUGH)
Would support an intro including "Macedonian (Slavonic)" provided it was put in the correct context, as I have outlined below. - Francis Tyers·17:13, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
After I checked out the AU status of the language, I cried ENOUGH, having considered the 60 (or what) sources I provided for you, the darn Ethnologue, etc etc. Now will you leave that article alone please, or do you want more? NikoSilver16:24, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Still it is an alternative name, and very recent one too. You need to add that in that WP:POVFORK of yours. Also, the 'Slavonic' alternative alone produces +300 links alone. Hey! I may even get to rename that article after all, having found more sources than you! :-) NikoSilver16:51, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Bye for now, but I am really dissappointed: You knew all along that AU called the language until 1998 as Macedonian (Slavonic), and (1) you wanted to exclude the alternative name from the intro, (2) you wouldn't tell me to expand my search string... NikoSilver17:02, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Also your results are in no way conclusive. The name change was overturned by the High Court for being discriminatory. You could include it in the introduction as "The language was also known as Macedonian (Slavonic) for a year before the Australian High Court ruled that the government of the state of Victoria acted in an illegal and discriminatory fashion by changing the name." I don't think either of us wants that though. - Francis Tyers·17:06, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
I've considered your sources. Four of them are acceptable. An extra three are acceptable if we put the name in context. You have not provided 60 sources and I challenge you to list them if you have. At most you have provided 20 reliable sources for my (non-exhaustive) 412420 422 reliable sources. If we did the maths, this would result in "*Slav*Macedonian*language" being used 4% of the time. Which I'm quite sure we can all agree is an excessively minority usage. - Francis Tyers·17:22, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
I dispute your 412 sources as repetitive from the same sites e.g. you have listed UN and EU more than 20 times each, COE some 80 times(!) etc. For me even 4% + Ethnologue + Australian case + Greece + dispute in general would be more than enough. Of course, claiming I only have 20 sources while you yourself did the search and came up with 21 books alone is silly... NikoSilver21:48, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
...Who in p.307 also says: "The language of the Slavs of Macedonia was classified [by the Naval Intelligence Division (UK) Maps, in 1944] as Macedo-Slav and it was shown in Jugoslav and Greek Macedonia but not in Bulgaria."
Evidently you didn't get the memo about reliable sources. You claim "160", but the majority of those are unreliable. I could equally claim 80,000 with the same certitude. - Francis Tyers·00:48, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
Are you guys still at it? If you go on, then even those dinosaurs are going to refuse to eat you, because you're too damned old and tough. Fut.Perf.☼11:15, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
Well, I think I'm going to give up, he's quoting "Paleorama" vs. many notable linguists, international organisations, academics, news organisations etc. He has a case for including "Macedonian (Slavonic)" providing the context I gave is used. My previous compromise proposal still stands, to have "Slavic Macedonian language" in the dab note.- Francis Tyers·14:41, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
I am really dissapointed you don't notice:
Lumsden, Stallaerts, Hammel, Wilkinson, Poulton, Lunt, Shea as academics
another 18 books
Britannica (63 times), ODIN, Ethnologue, Rosetta project, Mercator, Freedomhouse, Australian Press Council, and the Defence Academy and the Naval Intelligence Division of the UK as third-party sources
ISO, ECMA, CEN as standardizing organizations
UN, COE (EU), ECML (EU) as international organizations
Really guys, I know almost everybody's already said this, but don't you believe you have very good chances of finding yourselves assigned the prize for the lamest dispute ever in wikipedia?;-) I must admit I simply don't get it how people can find so interesting a discussion on minimum rewording of the lead; be careful, or I may be tempted to become really rouge and block the article for a year, obviously at the wrong version ;-).--Aldux22:16, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
Wow! This is even more complex than the murder of Kennedy. I need time to think about it and digest the waves of information!--Yannismarou20:47, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Hey Sandy
Thanks for correcting me in coprolalia. Sorry for the apparent WP:OR, but I thought the intro needed to say this is a nuthouse case. Anyway, keep me in mind whenever you need to correct Greek stuff. :-) NikoSilver19:35, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for the help on Greek stuff (I really wasn't sure on the translations):I wouldn't really say it's a nuthouse case, though.I know some very accomplished and fine people who have coprolalia as a symptom of their Tourette syndrome.When I have time, I'll try to tune up the article to better explain.Regards, Sandy (Talk) 19:39, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Umm, possibly my English/Medical knowledge doesn't help to explain. I meant the intro needed some kind of hint that this is a non-normal mental situation/state. NikoSilver20:01, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Oh, don't worry :-) No fuss at all. This place is too serious sometimes, and I got a healthy laugh reading through the comments! --HappyCamper13:25, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
NikoSilver, nice shots from Phi Phi.The Muslim village shot doesn't link through correctly (although, clicking on the image page, I do get the full-sized version).Can you fix that up?Also, I assume you took that yourself (as with the other two)? - Thaimoss 16:01, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
P.S. You know the name of that village? - Thaimoss16:02, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
I'll see to it and try to fix it (mine worked). Yes, I took that pic myself too, but the captain/guide's English was really poor, and even if he said the name, I don't remember it. Sorry for that. I had hired a speed-boat from Phouket. You might also be interested in correcting/fixing up the James bond Island - Thailand. The picture is accurate, I have a similar one, but no word about the capitalization etc... NikoSilver21:24, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Niko, I've taken a first run at the James bond Island - Thailand.Want to move/rename that to Bond (capital 'B')?
Actually 'James Bond' is a nickname due to the movie. They told me the real name but I don't remember at all. Thank God someone else knew it. Now I guess it's ok! NikoSilver11:25, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
???
Dear Niko,
What is the relation that you use my name in FpaS talk page.?Sory, what is wrong with me?
Regards.
MustTC20:31, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
Nothing Mustafa, don't worry, it was a joke. FPaS advised you not to use test-templates to experienced users, and I used it on him (thereby implying he is unexperienced). I linked your talk to show him where I read it. Have fun. NikoSilver20:35, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
A new (and overdue) Greek and Turkish cooperation and notification board has been launched here. Stop by, have a look and sound off! Cheers! Baristarim07:19, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
Being popular is a vanity. Especialy in an artificial environment such as WP. Yes, you are welcome to send requests to my (old) signature shop. NikoSilver10:42, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Nationalistic botanists
I gotta quit.The exchange was a nice break to the tribal warfare over in Y land, though.Don't forget though that the truth is stranger than fiction.KP Botany00:20, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
My RfA
I wonder where you got the idea to come over and vote for me :)! Thank you very much for your eloquent remarks and vote in support. Biruitorul15:24, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Our last discussion was indicative of your morale. I noticed your RfA and thought I should browse you. I liked the findings. I only vote for/against people I've seen around. NikoSilver15:35, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Γειά σου! Οφείλω να σε ενημερώσω οτι χρησιμοποιώ στην αρχική μου σελίδα [[11]] ενα template που έχω την εντύπωση οτι δημιούργησες. Ελπίζω να μην σε ενοχλεί.Kapnisma09:47, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
Request
Hello Niko. I need your advice if you're in a position to help. Originally when I created my account (User:Evlekis), you sent the welcome note. Am I to assume that this makes you an administrator! I don't know, anyhow, my only purpose is to extend articles, correct what I see as errors and generally edit much like any other user. I am occasionally subjected to revert-wars and I am in the middle of one at the moment. A User:DJ Bungi seems to have little better to do than design his own articles with regards persons from the former Yugoslavia, particularly those born within the old country, and remove their country of birth as being Yugoslavia. He never does this when the subject is born before its creation (ie. you won't find him removing Venetian Republic and replacing it with Croatia etc). He also likes to wipe out Cyrillic translations of peoples names: I apply Cyrillic names to people born in FYR Macedonia, Serbia or Montenegro at any time as the Cyrillic alphabet is to those places what the Greek alphabet is to Greece; naturally, if a person born anywhere else declares FYR-Macedonian, Serbian or Montenegrin nationality/ethnicity etc, then I place Cyrillic for much the same reasons, in that it is a sign of the people of the respective nation (whether they choose to use it or not). It does not take much space and it causes offence to nobody. Country naming is itself biographical and relevant to the article's subject. When he does this, he often reverts pages to old editions which wipe out many more details. I always believed that editors have the right to add info, others have the right to query it, but removal needs to be justified and one is not allowed to remove details simply because he doesn't like them: I hate the fact that NATO put bombs on Yugoslavia in 1999 but I don't alter the page as though it never happened! A recent example of a revert-war with Bungi boy is here:
Anyhow, assuming there would be more than just a protest against Cyrillic and his misfortune of seeing Bosnia once in Yugoslavia, I realised that my own reverts may have been deleting something vital from his preferred version, I read through it and the only significant feature was a Bosnia-bio-stub. So I replaed the old edits having included the bio stub as such:
How do you deal with someone like that? No doubt when he rises from his pit as sun sets he will retrun to his nonsense.
So I then reverted the edit back to its original (but I will replace the Croatian link). Are you in a position to warn him officially that such behaviour is vandalism, if not, to whom do I go? Thanks for your time Niko. Evlekis10:43, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
Interesting. For some reason it won't show on your system. This was all on the English language Wiki but it is possible that when you click on the link (which takes you to the page via the search bar, that is externally), it takes you to something else. Fair enough, do you know any admin personnel? I'd be glad if you could give me the details of someone who might be able to help! Ευχαριστώ! Γειά σασ για τόρα!Evlekis14:40, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
Thanks Niko, it is all clear now what you meant. I think this is a behaviour dispute because he has a habit of removing Cyrillic examples of people's names and their country of birth as Yugoslavia when everyone knows that's how it was in 1981! I think the anti-country argument is that "country is not necessary" so in a sense, it is a mixture of content and attitude. Duja is a good editor but at the moment I'm waiting for him to get back to me on something else totally different, and there is no such thing as a neutral POV editor who is Serbian, not atleast if you happen to be Bosnian and set on your own narrow vision! :) Thanks again for replying and helping as best you could, thanks also for your time, keep up your good contributions! Evlekis16:59, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
Sorry to have dragged you into an ugly issue, thanks for the involvement and getting us one step closer to ending a stupid dispute. The behaviour if the original reverter was annoying so I'll handle it as best I can (I did try talking but got no responce, just the continued page-reverting). That Bosnian language source by Fossa says very little anyway but I have returned Yugoslavia as a birthplace and will insist that this part of the text stays: the rest of the page is modelled on Fossa/Bungi or whoever he is. If there is any more nonsense form their side now, we know who the trols are, but thanks for helping again and sorry to have called you away from your own key areas. Evlekis11:33, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
By a London-based agent of the E.Y.Π.
Arghh! The composition of the Supreme Cabal Regime's politburo has been unveiled! How are we going to rule the world now? We The people must believe that There Is No Cabal; we've got to make a cover-up, so that they don't understand that we are the old Backbone cabal. I'll promptly consult with our leader. (And, then since we're all England-based, we of the politburo can take a beer at the pub ;-)).--Aldux14:30, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
I don't give a [removed it myself] about the tags on it. The very worse I can think, is someone trying to reason with him in -say- Bulgarian, and him not responding, therefore keep being banned! NikoSilver18:50, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
BTW I hope none of my fellow members of the EYP had anything to do with Litvinenko's death. Hectorian told me something the other day which made feel worried - you should always tell me these things! :-D --Euthymios18:11, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
And it only gets better! I'm a member of L.A.O.S. and Chrissi Avgi, a schizophrenic web vandal unacceptible to wikipedian community, in addition to being a suspected sockpuppet of Aldux, and confirmed sockpuppet of Euthymios. ;-) Khoikhoi23:30, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
I guess we can start by looking at the ones I blocked, as well as the IPs Aldux & Fut.Perf. blocked. However, it's getting late here, and I gotta get some sleep. Talk to ya later, Khoikhoi11:24, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
It's not right! Why can't I be the sock-puppet master?
File:Cry-tpvgames.gif Now the E.Y.Π. won't pay me anymore!
Oh well, I can always become a member of the Macedonist Cabal (obviously, TINC) ;-)--Aldux18:31, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Since we have been uncovered, and the possibilities of a cover up are limitted, i am just letting u know that i will be in Switzerland for some time... I had thought of moving to the UK, but it is rather dangerous these days for us, spies... E.Y.Π. pays well and i have secret accounts in Zurich, so, i can live a wealthy life in a salle... I am worried of my health, though, since i had that terrible meal in a sushi restaurant. U can trust British Airways, though, cause i will travel by car, through Italy. Sorry, Aldux, i hope i will not contaminate a fellow cabalist... LOL:-D Hectorian18:53, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
By the way, i am also offended by the message that offended Aldux, but for different reasons: Don't I deserve a comment next to my name?:(... why do the others have? I am not just "Hectorian";-) Hectorian18:59, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Damn! I should had kept my mouth shut! (but it is still "innocent" compared to what the others have been accused for:)...). Hectorian19:04, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
I just copied something from Wikipedia:Templates/cleanup and changed a few words.Incidentally, a little while ago I started moving all of the Thessaloniki images over to Commons, in order to get rid of the gallery in the article, but it got out of hand, as there was some kind of edit war over the images at the time.Perhaps I should get back to that... Jkelly23:01, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
Ναί, είναι τουλάχιστον notable και οι δύο. Και τα δύο άρθρα προσφέρονται για επέκταση γιατί οι τύποι είναι κάλτ (μέχρι πολύ κάλτ!). Όσο για τον χρήστη, δες εδώ και πάτα και "βιογραφία" (φαντάζομαι δεν θα έχει σχέση βέβαια, αλλά είναι επίσης κάλτ!) Πρόσθεσα searches στα τωκ-πειτζ. :-) NikoSilver10:42, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
I've just restored the local version of this - the copy on commons was reported as being broken in strange and interesting ways. As the author, could you have a look at them and see what's up with the commons one? Shimgray | talk | 00:45, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
I don't understand. I uploaded the correct versions in both commons and en:wp anyway... Mind telling me what the problem was? NikoSilver18:59, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
Thanks guys, but as you know it wasn't just me. Francis Tyers, FunkyFly, Politis, Telex and PMAnderson helped a lot. NikoSilver19:01, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
ok
Xronia polla (6 December). So it made it :-O! Can we add more to the map? The original kingdom was actually quite small and south of Thessaloniki (or, rather, Therme). And I am no sure about the Ottoman map, maps only began including Skopje and the area north of Veles, towards the end of the 19th century. So for the Ottoman years and its vilahet system, we should respect the Ottoman administration's system and simply point out that for those 400 years or so, it did not exist. Politis15:15, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
Efcharisto Constandis! WP has a... birthday in WP feature, but not a normal birthday (that I know of), not to mention nameday feature. Maybe we should discuss about this in WP:GR... NikoSilver19:26, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
Thanks to all
...for all your comments. I am in London right now, and in great difficulty of accessing WP. I'll check all your requests from Monday, when I get back. Regards to all! NikoSilver21:04, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
Hi Avg, nicosilver, these are the uploaded ones, if you need more just let me know [Image:Solomou shot by Kenan Akin and Erdan Emanet.jpg] [Image:Tasos Isaak murdered.jpg] Aristovoul0s08:55, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
...Se 139 meres kai simera gia tin akriveia. Twra adeia fysika kai malista timitiki. Kata ta alla zw ena drama:)) Apo tin protomagia kai pali konta sas. Kales giortes!!!--makedonas10:32, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
Actually, Niko, that contribution of yours seems to be more like a discussion, would you mind moving it to the RfC talk page? Fut.Perf.☼15:09, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
I was hoping that someone would notice sooner or later! I've been seeing that same thing pop up on several peoples pages and I was very confused. Thank you so much for your contributions!
I appreciate your work and everything you do for Wikipedia to make it better and your actions are not going unnoticed.
Thank you.
Sincerely,
Carlo V. Sexron11:18, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
Carlo V. Sexron
Carlo V. Sexron has smiled at you! Smiles promote WikiLove and hopefully this one has made your day better. Spread the WikiLove by smiling to someone else, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past or a good friend. Smile to others by adding {{subst:smile}}, {{subst:smile2}} or {{subst:smile3}} to their talk page with a friendly message. Happy editing!
Family Names
Αναφορικά στα ονόματα των Ελλήνων, νομίζω θα έπρεπε να προσθέσεις οτι δισύλλαβα σε -ας, -ης δείχνουν καταγωγή από Μακεδονία/Ήπειρο. π.χ. Γάκης, Λάκης, Τόλκας. Αν ανοίξεις έναν τηλεφωνικό κατάλογο Μακεδονίας θα το καταλάβεις και εσύ.
Αυτά τα θυμάμαι από ένα μάθημα γλωσσολογίας στο πανεπιστήμιο, ο καθηγητής που το έκανε μπορούσε ο κερατάς να σου πεί από που κατάγεσαι με βάση το επίθετο! (Εμένα παρ΄ότι καυχόμαι περί της Μακεδονικής αυτοχθονίας μου -με αποδείξεις ο πιό ανιχνεύσιμος πρόγονος μου διαβιούσε εν Θεσσαλονίκηι το σωτήριο έτος 1832- με έβγαλε από την Άνδρο!? )
Θα προσπαθήσω να βρώ ποια βιβλία είχε για πηγές.
Πρέπει οπωσδήποτε να διαβάσεις αυτό το βιβλίο [[13]]
Kapnisma18:22, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
Για να αρχίσω, σε ευχαριστώ πάρα πολύ για τη βοήθειά σου, και βεβαιώνεται ότι θα υιοθετήσω τις συστάσεις σου.
Na σου po thn alidia, εξετάσει τη σελίδα σου (κάτω από εκδώστε), για να μάθουν τους κώδικες, ελπίζοντας να μάθω πώς να κατασκευάσo τη σελίδα μου, και μέχρι τώρα έχει πληρώσει μακριά. Ελπίζω δεν σας ενοχλεί;
Έχοντας αναφέρει αυτά, το μόνο πράγμα που δεν έχω τον κύριο είναι πώς να κεντροθετήσει τα στοιχεία, παραδείγματος χάριν, το ελληνικό έμβλημα, ποιος θα επιθυμούσα να κεντροθετήσω στη σελίδα μου, μαζί με το κείμενο κάτω από το.
Pithanos vandalopolemos sto arthro tis Byzantinis autokratorias, an theleis voitha na fygei to parasito, an perimeno apo tous ksenous tha erthei anastasi. Miskin01:08, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
So what is going on here Nikos? You honestly expect me to believe that the creation of this article was a coincidence, and some Greeks users came back from sleeps of 1.5 months to vote was also such? This is a really poor attempt to deflect attention from PGG. Many administrators are aware of this. And there will be a report at ANI. This is ridicilous! Why did you sign up for the coop board? To have some fun? Are there Turkish editors creating "Macedonian genocide" articles and emailing each other per WP:POINT coz of some dispute at a greco-turkish page? How did you learn about this AfD? This whole charade is a clear breach of policies on disruption and WP:POINT. This failed coup attempt (no pun intended) resulted in the loss of hours of manpower from othere Wiki articles. Really great work man.. If somebody sent you an email, why didn't you send one to me for example? That would have been the "goodfaith" thing to do, right? We are all board members at the end of the day, no? If somebody created a "macedonian genocide" article, I would have definitely let you know.. Whatever man... Baristarim11:21, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for your kind words. The TruthTM is that we Greeks have special telepathetic senses. Some of them even flied from accross the world to vote in this. You see, with all this technology we have, we don't need to look at each other's contribs, or talk-pages to see what they are up to... As for the article, if you haven't noticed, my view is that the content is legitimate, and I hated the fact that it would be wiped out. (I think Yanni's, Yandman's and your proposals aren't that far from each other). I just saw Fut.Perf.'s invitation to you in our supreme council. We're gonna be exchanging more technological advancements! Feel free to join. Bye now, have to go ahead and wipe out some Slavomacedonians! NikoSilver11:34, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
Aha. The next time a Turkish user creates a "Macedonian genocide" article and twenty Turkish users come for a block vote, I would let you know of the AfD. The least that could have been done was to inform other users. It was not an article about some lame unimportant topic/title. This is not a US/THEM issue. Yandman clearly stated in his AfD that people could "vote to keep, delete, rename or move". Why not suggest a rename or merge etc if you were interested in content? Whatever man, what went down with the WP:POINT et al was not class. You could have at least left a note at the coop board talk page, just like when I had done when I came across a weird article.Baristarim11:27, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Baris, please, I was clear from moment 1 about my intentions regarding the content (thereby endorsing those other options you specify). Second, there was virtually no time left between me voting and you jumping in with rhetoric, insults and accusations. I would have probably done all that which you suggest had I not been attacked immediately and mercilessly. Check my contribs the last few days. It is evident that on top of that I didn't have any time for WP. NikoSilver11:40, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Mήπως μπορείς σε παρακαλώ να μου πείς πώς μπορώ να μεταφέρω το Countries Visited δίπλα απο τον πίνακα με τα προσωπικά και κάτω από το Wikipedia:Babel στη σελίδα μου ;
Οι βλάκες είναι ένα εξαιρετικό δοκίμιο κοινωνικού και ψυχολογικού περιεχομένου που μπορεί να φανεί πολύ χρήσιμο σε όσους καθημερινά βρίσκονται στη δυσάρεστη θέση να αλληλεπιδρούν με τη συγκεκριμένη κοινωνική ομάδα.
Σκέφτηκα οτι μπορεί να σου φανεί χρήσιμο.
Kapnisma08:55, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
Hey man
I was talking to this Greek girl last night in the hostel, and obviously we were talking about where we'd been in Greece (she was a Greek-Australian). So anyway, she's like did you go to see this grave near Thessaloniki, and I'm like "no", so anyway she's all, "well there's this thing there, a shield or something." — I go, oh with the /vergina sun / on (hover over the link to see how I pronounced vergina). Anyway she laughed and told me the correct pronunciation, I might keep saying it my way though, its pretty funny :D — well it made me laugh, hope you at least crack a smile. - Francis Tyers·09:29, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
Did it work? I suppose the other pronunciation alternative[1] wasn't that inspiring,[2] huh? Anyway, I don't know what the Greek-Aussie told you, but the correct is Ver-yEE-nah (stress the caps and say it fast). Did you use any other language? NikoSilver16:27, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
LOL! She got it right, yeah :) I'm trying it out now in the office (no one else is around), and I think I've about got it, although I have trouble with the (I think) /ɾ/ sound. Negative on the other language, but then she wasn't a stereotypical Greek girl, so not such a great loss :) - Francis Tyers·16:35, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
Can you pronounce fuego in Spanish? Yeeeeah in English (albeit with a longer y sound)? Like maybe in What, or better in Whooosh... (Pheeww... Glad we didn't risk spreading your anti-Hellenic genes amongst our pure race...) NikoSilver16:46, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
This is our fourth Newsletter and the last of 2006! Please comment on its form, the way it is delivered , its content etc. We need your ideas and contributions!
Check the new sub-section of the main page Article style and content. Comment on its content and feel free to propose changes or additions.
Check the just created letter for welcoming new members, and feel free to implement modifications in its form!
Καλά Χριστούγεννα (Merry Christmas) to the 29 members of the project, and do not forget: new initiatives are needed in order to keep our project working!
For me, the only plausible solution is merger. The problem is how is this merger is going to be implemented. WP:GREECE probably has the most appropriate title and a broader scope, but WP:HOG has a much better backround, organization and structure, and it is an active project (whereas WP:GREECE is actually inactive since it was created). We must see how we'll combine these things. And I'll expect a response from the other two members of WP:GREECE.--Yannismarou16:38, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
Look, can you modify the search results that you gave in your view in the RfC? "greek genocide -wikipedia" gets only 1,450 hits, not 1,1million. It is extremely misleading. If you don't want to modify your view, I will simply add a subsection right under your view about the correct figures, if that's ok with you.. Baristarim21:13, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
Aha. So did you take a look at this [15]? It says "1,450" hits. Do you have some sort of... anti-common sense firewall? Or don't you know that the correct form of google search on Wikipedia is by using the "exact words" feature? So are you modifying your view, or should I create a subsection right under it with the corrected figure? Same thing for Google scholar search. Pls read my posts before replying.. Baristarim21:33, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
Can I spam your page one more time? :) Well, I saw your post. It's fine. In any case I have to go now. Merry Christmas! Baristarim22:11, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
I wish that you are enjoying the holidays with your family! I am sorry btw; I just looked at Alf's and the anon's userpages. Baristarim21:23, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for your support on my successful Request for Adminship (final result 78 Support /0 Oppose / 1 Neutral)
I have now been entrusted with the mop, bucket and keys. I will be slowly acclimating myself to my new tools over the next months. I am humbled by your kind support and would certainly welcome any feedback on my actions. Please do not hesitate to contact me. Once again, many thanks and happy new year!
All the best, Asteriontalk16:01, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
Не (=όχι). Εγώ μπάραμ να δημιουργήσω νεα δεδομένα - εσύ μπάρας να αντιγράψεις άλλο άρθρο (το οποίο μπάρα διορθώσεις). //Dirak22:57, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
Μπα, μπάρα εσύ τότε, αλλά φοβάμαι οτι μπαράς πολύ και θα μπαρακουραστούμε να μπαρακολουθούμε μπας και μας τη μπέσουν μπαμπέσικα (οι μπαμπάρες). NikoSilver23:04, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
Ok so be it. But I still object to "translation". There is no actual translation involved, as it is a proper name. Find a better way to word it. /FunkyFly.talk_22:33, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
Ti trexei bre paidia? Malko po malko na kataloboume kai emeis :-) Kata ta alla, pragmati psilom... kai kolimeeenos, ox aman ;-) Politis00:13, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
Αληθεια πιστευεις πως ο Μεγας Αλεξανδρος ηταν "Μακεδονας" και οχι Ελληνας??? Εχασα πασα ιδεα για σενα... Mitsos13:11, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
Εσύ το πιστεύεις αυτό. Εγώ λέω οτι ήταν Έλληνας επειδή αυτοχαρακτηριζόταν Έλληνας και είχε τις Ελληνικές αξίες και την Ελληνική παιδεία. Εσύ πιστεύεις οτι έχει διαφορά αν βγήκε από τα αρχίδια Ελληνομακεδόνα ή Οτιδηποτεμακεδόνα. Το μόνο σίγουρο, βέβαια, είναι οτι δεν βγήκε από τέτοιο Μακεδόνα. NikoSilver16:14, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
Πιθανότατα ναί. Αλλά με τη δικιά σου λογική, οι Δωριείς δεν θα έπρεπε ποτέ να "μπασταρδευτούν" με τα υπόλοιπα Ελληνικά φύλλα. Οι Βυζαντινοί δεν θα έπρεπε να "μπασταρδευτούν" με τους Αρμένιους και με όλους τους υπόλοιπους. Ακόμα κι αν έχουμε "ράτσες" εμείς οι άνθρωποι, οι Έλληνες ιστορικά επέλεγαν (θελημένα ή αθέλητα) να διασταυρώνονται με "άλλες ράτσες" και με αυτό τον τρόπο να βελτιώνουν τη δική τους. Αυτό το πράγμα, δεν γίνεται με το να αποκλείεις τους ξένους. Γίνεται μόνον με το να είσαι απόλυτα ανοικτός σε όλους. Έτσι, διαδίδεις την κουλτούρα σου και τον πολιτισμό σου σε περισσότερους, ενώ παράλληλα τον βελτιώνεις κιόλας αφομοιώνοντας τα θετικά στοιχεία τους. NikoSilver11:38, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
Νικο, ολοι οι Λαοι του κοσμου προερχονται απο το "μπασταρδεμα" αρχαιων φύλων. Οι Δωριεις αναμιχθεικαν με τα υπολοιπα φυλα πουυ ζουσαν στην Ελλαδα (ετσι και αλλιως ειχαν κοινη καταγωγη) και ετσι εγινε η Ελληνικη Φυλη. Οι Βυζαντινοι δεν αναμιχθησαν με τους αρμενιους, και αν αυτο εγινε (ισως εγινε σε μικρη βαση) δεν εγινε με την θεληση τους. "Εσύ πιστεύεις οτι έχει διαφορά αν βγήκε από τα αρχίδια Ελληνομακεδόνα ή Οτιδηποτεμακεδόνα." Φυσικα εχει διαφορα. Εσυ ας πουμε αν εβγαινες απο τα αρχιδια καποιου αλλου δεν θα ησουν ο Νικος. Και αν ο πατερας σου ηταν Σουηδος, θα ησουν και εσυ Σουηδος. Ποιος σου ειπε πως Ελληνες επελεγαν να "διασταυρώνονται" με αλλες φυλες? Οσο για αυτο που λες πως οι Ελληνες γινονται καλυτεροι οταν αφομοιωνουν αλλους λαους, προφανως δεν εχεις καταλαβει τι εννοω. Αυτο που μας κανει Ελληνες ειναι το Αιμα μας, επειδη η κουλτουρα προερχεται απο το Αιμα, την Φυλη, την Καταγωγη. Κατα τη γνωμη μου, αδικως μαλωνουμε. Ηπαρχουν και εθνικιστες που πιστευουν οτι το Εθνος βασιζεται πρωτα στον Πολιτισμο και μετα στην Φυλη. Το θεμα ειναι, σου αρεσει να εχεις τοσους τριτοκοσμικους μεταναστες στην χωρα σου, να μας ταπεινωνουν συνεχεια στα "εθνικα θεματα", να αγοραζουμε γαλοπουλα με δοσεις, να τα σπανε συνεχεια οι "γνωστοι-γνωστοτατοι", να μπορει ο καθενας να βριζει το εθνος και την Ελλαδα και να καιει την σημαια ενω αμα πεις "ζητω το εθνος" γινεσαι ο "κακος ξενοφοβος ρατσιστης"? Εαν οχι τοτε πρεπει να στραφεις στον Εθνικισμο. Mitsos13:55, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
Διαφωνώ για το "αίμα" και βέβαια δεν είπα οτι επέλεγαν. Η κουλτούρα δεν μπορεί να προέρχεται από το αίμα γιατί το κεφάλι μας γεννιέται άδειο. Το ανάποδο συμβαίνει. Δεν μπορείς να τραβήξεις μια γραμμή στο μπαστάρδεμα στο σημείο που σε βολεύει (π.χ. Αρχαίοι Έλληνες ή Βυζαντινοί) και να αγνοείς το μπαστάρδεμα μετά από αυτή τη γραμμή.
Ναι, μου αρέσουν οι μετανάστες και δεν τους θεωρώ καθόλου τριτοκοσμικούς. Τους θεωρώ πολύ χρήσιμους, και βέβαια όταν βρίσκονται σε ανοιχτόμυαλο περιβάλλον, μόνον ταπείνωση δεν επιδιώκουν. Χρήσιμοι γιατί παρά την ανεργία και τις δόσεις που λες, τελικά δεν είδα κανένα Έλληνα να παίρνει πιλοφόρι ή καλάθι στην πλάτη και να πηγαίνει στην οικοδομή ή στον αγρό. Έχουμε γίνει όλοι ψηλομύτικα "αφεντικά" (του κώλου) και θέλουμε "γραφείο" για να μην είμαστε άνεργοι. Ποιός θα δουλέψει τελικά σ'αυτή τη χώρα? Και αλήθεια, αφού είναι "κατώτεροι", γιατί θες να τους διώξεις και δεν τους ανταγωνίζεσαι στα ίσια? Δεν θα έπρεπε να είναι μεγάλη απειλή για έναν "ανώτερο", σωστά?
Η ταπείνωση, το βρίσιμο του έθνους κλπ που λες επιδιώκεται ως αντίποινο στο στενόμυαλο αποκλεισμό τους, που τους συσπειρώνει και τους ισχυροποιεί, αντί να τους κάνει να θαυμάζουν και να θέλουν να μας μιμηθούν. Παράδειγμα οι Πομάκοι, που ενώ μιλούν Βουλγαρικά και είναι απλά μουσουλμάνοι το θρήσκευμα, αντί να δημιουργούν μία υγιή ξεχωριστή κοινότητα στη Δυτική Θράκη, έχουν συσπειρωθεί με τους Τούρκους (για να προστατευθούν από τη ξενοφοβία μας) και έτσι τους έχουν τριπλασιάσει! Όταν το καταλάβαμε ήταν ήδη αργά.
Επίσης, διαφωνώ όχι μόνον με το ότι οι μετανάστες χειροτερεύουν την οικονομική κατάσταση, αλλά με την τραγωδιοποίηση της οικονομικής κατάστασης αυτής καθ'εαυτής. Η Ελληνική οικονομία είναι τούρμπο. Είμαστε 30στοι κατα κεφαλήν παγκοσμίως (χωρίς π.χ. τους τεράστιους εφοπλιστές μας), έχουμε 9-10% ανεργία, και γενικά πάμε καλά (άσχετα που γκρινιάζουμε). Τι να πούν στην Ανατολική Ευρώπη με τα 30άρια και τα 40άρια (%)? Όποιος θέλει να δουλέψει, δουλειά θα βρεί. Όποιος θέλει να ανέβει, θα ανέβει και μετά θα λέγεται "αυτοδημιούργητος" σαν τόσους μεγάλους και τρανούς επιχειρηματίες που ξεκίνησαν ξυπόλυτοι. Η εναλλακτική της γκρίνιας είναι πολύ λιγότερο αποδοτική!
Έχουμε κληρονομήσει και κληροδοτήσει ατελείωτα πλεονεκτήματα και κουσούρια από τρίτους και εξακολουθούμε να το κάνουμε. Αυτό που χρειάζεται είναι φιλτράρισμα στις αρχές και όχι βέβαια στους ανθρώπους. Άσε που έχουμε και υπογεννητικότητα! Κάθε ψυχή που Ελληνικοποιείται αυτοβούλως, είναι θετική. Αλλά αυτό δεν γίνεται ποτέ με φοβέρα, αποκλεισμό (και βέβαια με "μερική γενοκτονία")...
Όσο για τα καψίματα σημαιών και τέτοια, με βρίσκουν κάθετα αντίθετο κι εμένα, αλλά θεωρώ οτι προέρχονται από δική μας αντιπαλότητα. NikoSilver14:42, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
Μπορει να μην με πιστεψεις, αλλα οντως ετσι εγινε. Αρχισα να γραφω την μακροσκελη απαντηση μου, και οταν τελειωσα και πατησα save, μου βγηκε ενα μυνημα που ελεγε οτι δεν μπορω να κανω edit επειδη η σελιδα ειναι locked. Πηγα στο history na δω αν ειναι εκανε καποιος protect τη σελιδα σου, και ειδα πως ημουνα loged out! Θα σου ξανααπαντησω (βαριεμαι τωρα), απλα θελω να ξερεις πως δεν παρατησα ετσι την συζητηση. Mitsos12:52, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
It's not right! Why can't I be the sock-puppet master?
File:Cry-tpvgames.gif Now the E.Y.Π. won't pay me anymore!
Oh well, I can always become a member of the Macedonist Cabal (obviously, TINC) ;-)--Aldux 18:31, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
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