User talk:Macodudewasalreadytaken?

Todor's Identity

Welcome to Wikipedia. We appreciate your contributions, but in one of your recent edits, it appears that you have added original research, which is against Wikipedia's policies. Original research refers to material—such as facts, allegations, ideas, and personal experiences—for which no reliable, published sources exist; it also encompasses combining published sources in a way to imply something that none of them explicitly say. Please be prepared to cite a reliable source for all of your contributions. You can have a look at the tutorial on citing sources. Thank you. StephenMacky1 (talk) 13:57, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

I have done no independent research I have just used sources which have been used by other wiki articles (Brittanica) such as

Gotse Delchev - Wikipedia

Dame Gruev - Wikipedia Macodudewasalreadytaken? (talk) 14:02, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

You have done it by inserting your own point-of-view here. If you had actually read the article about IMRO on Britannica, you would see that Loring Danforth uses the term "Macedonian" in the context of a regional identity: IMRO was founded in 1893 in Thessaloníki; its early leaders included Damyan Gruev, Gotsé Delchev, and Yane Sandanski, men who had a Macedonian regional identity and a Bulgarian national identity. That is probably the case with Aleksandrov too. I do not think Britannica is using the term in the context you think it does. StephenMacky1 (talk) 14:08, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

The choice between "Bulgarian" and "Macedonian-Bulgarian" ultimately depends on the aspect of Aleksandrov’s identity and activities that one wishes to emphasize. "Macedonian-Bulgarian" provides a more nuanced view, acknowledging both regional and national affiliations, while "Bulgarian" emphasizes the dominant nationalistic aspect of his political activities. Both terms have their place, and the context in which they are used can guide the most appropriate choice. Macodudewasalreadytaken? (talk) 14:12, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

Well, you will need to make a case for that on the article's talk page, provide sources and gain consensus. Sources determine the notable aspects of a subject. See MOS:ETHNICITY. Your initial edit used the term "Macedonian" as in ethnicity. StephenMacky1 (talk) 14:16, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

To accurately reflect Todor Aleksandrov's complex identity, the term "Macedonian-Bulgarian" should be used. This term captures both his Macedonian regional background and his Bulgarian national affiliation, aligning with historical context and sources. So that why I propose his identity as "Macedonian-Bulgarian". Although I first used Macedonian as an ethnicity Macedonian-Bulgarian can benefit both parties. Macodudewasalreadytaken? (talk) 14:25, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

Apart from Britannica, do you have any other sources? One source is not sufficient to establish notability for that aspect, plus it is only a short description. At least three or more sources are needed. StephenMacky1 (talk) 15:22, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

I think a case could be made to mention his Macedonian Bulgarian identity in the lead, since some sources do emphasize his regional identity. StephenMacky1 (talk) 15:39, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

alr so its agreed he should be called Macedonian Bulgarian. Macodudewasalreadytaken? (talk) 12:50, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Yeah. Found additional sources. The matter is settled. StephenMacky1 (talk) 13:09, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

September 2024

Hello, I'm Jingiby. Wikipedia is written by people who have a wide diversity of opinions, but we try hard to make sure articles have a neutral point of view. Your recent edit to Georgi Pulevski seemed less than neutral and has been removed. If you think this was a mistake, or if you have any questions, you can leave me a message on my talk page. Thank you. Jingiby (talk) 16:51, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Hello yes I would like to address the claims of a non-natural edit. I was just trying to keep Georgi Pulevski personal views about this nationality. Macodudewasalreadytaken? (talk) 18:50, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

You mean non-neutral? Anyway I checked your edit and agree that it needs to be discussed. I can see that you are still learning here so I would like to familiarize you with some things. Non-minor edits should not be marked as minor (per WP:ME). Ethnicity also does not belong in infoboxes per MOS:INFONAT. The nationality parameter has caused confusion among people but it is not used for ethnicity. You also cannot cite Wikipedia as a source. In the sources cited, I did not see him being claimed as a hero anywhere. It would be great if you could provide a quote from Heraclides' source though. StephenMacky1 (talk) 19:14, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

👍 Macodudewasalreadytaken? (talk) 14:09, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

Please refrain from making unconstructive edits to Wikipedia, as you did at Georgi Pulevski. Your edits appear to be disruptive and have been or will be reverted.

• If you are engaged in an article content dispute with another editor, please discuss the matter with the editor at their talk page, or the article's talk page, and seek consensus with them. Alternatively, you can read Wikipedia's dispute resolution page, and ask for independent help at one of the relevant noticeboards.
• If you are engaged in any other form of dispute that is not covered on the dispute resolution page, please seek assistance at Wikipedia's Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents.

Please ensure you are familiar with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines, and please do not continue to make edits that appear disruptive. Continued disruptive editing may result in loss of editing privileges. Thank you. Jingiby (talk) 16:48, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Hello, Macodudewasalreadytaken?, welcome to Wikipedia and thank you for your contributions. Your editing pattern indicates that you may be using multiple accounts or coordinating editing with people outside Wikipedia. Our policy on multiple accounts usually does not allow this, and users who misuse multiple accounts may be blocked from editing. If you operate multiple accounts directly or with the help of another person, please disclose these connections. Thank you.Jingiby (talk) 16:03, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

I do not this is my only account but I appreciate your concern against your propaganda machine. Macodudewasalreadytaken? (talk) 20:48, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

October 2024

Constructive contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, but your recent edits, such as those to Georgi Pulevski, appear to be intentional disruptions designed to illustrate a point. Edits designed for the deliberate purpose of drawing opposition, including making edits you do not agree with or enforcing a rule in a generally unpopular way, are highly disruptive and can lead to a block or ban. If you feel that a policy is problematic, the policy's talk page is the proper place to raise your concerns. If you simply disagree with someone's actions in an article, discuss it on the article talk page or, if direct discussion fails, through dispute resolution. If consensus strongly disagrees with you even after you have made proper efforts, then respect the consensus, rather than trying to sway it with disruptive tactics. Thank you. Jingiby (talk) 19:55, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

i feel so offended Macodudewasalreadytaken? (talk) 20:05, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Hello, I'm Frost. I wanted to let you know that I reverted one of your recent contributions—specifically this edit to Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization—because it did not appear constructive. If you would like to experiment, please use the sandbox. If you have any questions, you can ask for assistance at the Teahouse or the Help desk. Thanks. Frost 20:08, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Thank you

Frost

Just a lil bit annoyed Macodudewasalreadytaken? (talk) 20:09, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

You are suspected of sockpuppetry, which means that someone suspects you of using multiple Wikipedia accounts for prohibited purposes. Please make yourself familiar with the guide to responding to investigations, then, if you wish to do so, respond to the evidence at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Macodudewasalreadytaken?. Thank you. Jingiby (talk) 20:28, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

gulp Macodudewasalreadytaken? (talk) 20:45, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Please remember to assume good faith when dealing with other editors. Thank you. Jingiby (talk) 20:50, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

ok Macodudewasalreadytaken? (talk) 18:39, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

Please stop. If you continue to change genres without discussion or sources, you may be blocked from editing. Jingiby (talk) 03:41, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

You may be blocked from editing without further warning the next time you change genres in pages without discussion or sources. Jingiby (talk) 14:18, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Please tell me what Wikipedia page i have done without giving a source. Macodudewasalreadytaken? (talk) 14:45, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

disruption only. Jingiby (talk) 15:40, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

disruption only Jingiby (talk) 15:42, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

biased agenda only. Jingiby (talk) 15:45, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

I meant wiki article which i have edited Macodudewasalreadytaken? (talk) 18:47, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Please, stop describing as ethnic Macedonians people from the early 20th century, who never espoused Macedonian nationalism. Such views are supported only in North Macedonia and are fringe views. Wikipedia doesn't support such policy. Do not omit deliberately the adjective "Bulgarian" from the original names of school institutions, organizations and parties. Thanks. Jingiby (talk) 18:45, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

But they did identified them selves as Macedonians historically. Macodudewasalreadytaken? (talk) 19:52, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Yes, they did identified themselves as Macedonians historically. However, the historical meanings of the term Macedonian had a different significances from these known today. Jingiby (talk) 09:41, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Ethnic Macedonian identity

Please, bear in mind that the prevailing opinion of researchers on the Macedonian question, is that Macedonian self-awareness grew in significance during the 1930s among left-wing political activists in Bulgaria and in Kingdom of Yugoslavia. Before WWI Macedonian nationalism was marginal with a few exceptions. However, even during the Second World War, a number of researchers assumed that the majority of the Macedonian Slavs did not have a clear self-awareness in ethnic sense and many of them were still pro-Bulgarian oriented. Please, stop describing as ethnic Macedonians people from the early 20th century, who never espoused Macedonian nationalism. I am providing several examples below:

One example is John Van Antwerp Fine. Per him:Until the late nineteenth century both outside observers and those Bulgaro-Macedonians who had an ethnic consciousness believed that their group, which is now two separate nationalities, comprised a single people, the Bulgarians. Thus the reader should ignore references to ethnic Macedonians in the Middle Ages which appear in some modern works. In the Middle Ages and into the nineteenth century, the term Macedonian was used entirely in reference to a geographical region. Anyone who lived within its confines, regardless of nationality, could be called a Macedonian. Nevertheless, the absence of a national consciousness in the past is no grounds to reject the Macedonians as a nationality today. For more see: John Van Antwerp Fine, The Early Medieval Balkans: A Critical Survey from the Sixth to the Late Twelfth Century, University of Michigan Press, 1991, ISBN 0472081497, pp. 36-37.

Another example is Loring M. Danforth: "At the end of the World War I there were very few historians or ethnographers, who claimed that a separate Macedonian nation existed... Of those Macedonian Slavs who had developed then some sense of national identity, the majority probably considered themselves to be Bulgarians, although they were aware of differences between themselves and the inhabitants of Bulgaria... The question as of whether a Macedonian nation actually existed in the 1940s when a Communist Yugoslavia decided to recognize one is difficult to answer. Some observers argue that even at this time it was doubtful whether the Slavs from Macedonia considered themselves to be a nationality separate from the Bulgarians." For more see: "The Macedonian conflict: ethnic nationalism in a transnational world, Loring M. Danforth, Princeton University Press, 1997, ISBN 0-691-04356-6, pp. 65–66.

According to Dimitar Bechev: Prior to the Balkan Wars, Macedonist ideas were shared and disseminated by a handful of intellectuals and activists... Macedonism grew in significance during the interwar period, both in Vardar Macedonia and among the left-leaning diaspora in Bulgaria. In the 1930s, the notion of a Macedonian nation was also endorsed by the Comintern. It was taken up by the communist partisans from 1941 to 1944, who created a Macedonian republic within the Yugoslav federation together with its modern cultural and educational institutions. For more see: Dimitar Bechev, Historical Dictionary of the Republic of Macedonia, Scarecrow Press, 2009, ISBN 0810862956, p. 140.

Nevertheless, per Hugh Poulton: Despite the slight change of the younger generation in the 1930s, reflected in the slogan "Macedonia for the Macedonians", anti-Serbian and pro-Bulgarian sentiment still prevailed. Even "Macedonia for the Macedonians" signalled in many ways an acceptance of the state of Yugoslavia and an attempt to gain autonomy within it. The collapse of Yugoslavia (in 1941) changed all this. There is a little doubt that the initial reaction among large sections of the population of Vardar Macedonia who had suffered so much under the Serbian repression was to greet the Bulgarians as liberators." In Who are the Macedonians? Hurst & Co. Publishers, 1995, ISBN 978-1-85065-238-0, p. 101.

Per Dimitris Livanios: "No doubt, the vast majority of the Macedonian peasants, being neither communists nor members of IMRO (United), had not been previously affected by Macedonian national ideology. The British officials who attempted to tackle this issue in the 1940s noted the pro-Bulgarian sentiment of many peasants and pointed out that Macedonian nationhood rested ‘on rather shaky historical and philological foundations’ and, therefore, had to be constructed by the Macedonian leadership." In Livanios, D. (2008), The Macedonian Question: Britain and the Southern Balkans 1939–1949.: Oxford University Press, ISBN 0191528722, p. 206. Jingiby (talk) 08:36, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

1. Pre-Modern Regional Identity

While it is true that "Macedonian" historically referred primarily to a geographical region rather than an ethnic identity, this is not unique to Macedonia. The emergence of national identities in Europe was a gradual process throughout the 19th century, with many modern European nations forming around that time. For instance, Italian and German national identities were also not fully consolidated until the late 19th century, yet their legitimacy today is not questioned on this basis. Similarly, Macedonian identity formation follows the same general trajectory as many other European nations during this period of burgeoning nationalism.

2. Early Expressions of Macedonian Identity

There are documented cases of individuals and movements in the late 19th and early 20th centuries advocating for a distinct Macedonian identity. The Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization (IMRO), for example, sought the autonomy of Macedonia from both the Ottoman Empire and neighboring states like Bulgaria and Serbia. While there were factions within IMRO that were pro-Bulgarian, others fought for a broader Macedonian autonomy, which would later lay the groundwork for a distinct national consciousness.

In the writings and activities of revolutionaries such as Dame Gruev, Goce Delchev, and Pitu Guli, there are elements of Macedonian identity that transcend mere affiliation with Bulgaria. Delchev, for instance, referred to Macedonia as a "world" in his famous quote: "I understand the world solely as a field for cultural competition among nations."

3. The Role of External Factors in Suppressing Macedonian Identity

Throughout the 19th and early 20th centuries, external pressures from neighboring states—particularly Bulgaria, Serbia, and Greece—complicated the development of a Macedonian national consciousness. These powers vied for control over Macedonia and sought to assimilate its population into their respective national narratives. As a result, any expressions of a distinct Macedonian identity were often suppressed or overshadowed by the dominant narratives of the surrounding states.

However, this suppression does not mean that Macedonian identity did not exist. It indicates that the process of identity formation was contested and shaped by political realities, as was the case in many other regions of Europe during this period of nation-state formation.

4. Post-WWII Macedonian Statehood

The establishment of the Socialist Republic of Macedonia within Yugoslavia after World War II is often cited as the point at which Macedonian identity was officially recognized. While it is true that Yugoslav communists played a role in promoting Macedonian national identity, it is essential to recognize that the groundwork for this had already been laid by earlier movements and intellectuals.

In fact, Yugoslavia’s recognition of a distinct Macedonian nation was not an arbitrary creation. It was based on an existing sense of regional and cultural distinctiveness that had been growing, particularly among the intelligentsia, and was aligned with the broader anti-imperialist and anti-monarchical movements of the early 20th century. The idea that Macedonian identity was solely imposed by external forces neglects the significant internal factors driving its formation.

5. Macedonian Language as a Key Identifier

One critical aspect of Macedonian identity that pre-dates World War II is the Macedonian language. The distinctiveness of the Macedonian language from both Bulgarian and Serbian was already noted by linguists in the 19th century. Kuzman Shapkarev, a notable 19th-century scholar, wrote extensively about the dialects spoken in Macedonia, highlighting their differences from other Slavic languages in the region.

The codification of the Macedonian language in 1945 was a continuation of efforts to assert a separate Macedonian linguistic and cultural identity. Many Macedonian intellectuals prior to the war were already involved in promoting the idea that the language spoken in Macedonia was distinct from Bulgarian, thus contributing to the development of a national consciousness.

6. Historiographical Criticism

While historians like John Van Antwerp Fine and Loring Danforth provide a critical lens on the late emergence of Macedonian national identity, their views should be seen in the broader context of national identity formation. National identities are often fluid and shaped by various political, social, and historical forces. The assertion that Macedonian identity was "constructed" or only developed late is part of a larger historiographical debate about how nations are formed. Scholars like Benedict Anderson argue that all national identities are "imagined communities," emerging in specific historical contexts rather than being eternal and unchanging.

Conclusion

While it is true that Macedonian national identity was not fully consolidated until the mid-20th century, this is not unique to Macedonia, nor does it delegitimize the existence of a distinct Macedonian identity today. The emergence of national consciousness is a complex and often gradual process, influenced by a wide range of internal and external factors. To dismiss early 20th-century Macedonians as simply "pro-Bulgarian" overlooks the nuanced and multifaceted nature of identity in this region. The groundwork for a Macedonian identity was being laid much earlier, and it culminated in the post-WWII recognition of Macedonia as a distinct entity within Yugoslavia, based on historical, cultural, and linguistic factors that had been developing for decades. Macodudewasalreadytaken? (talk) 13:25, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

Look, Wikipedia is based on WP:RS, not on personal opinions. Jingiby (talk) 16:28, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

These are not personal opinions. Macodudewasalreadytaken? (talk) 20:28, 20 October 2024 (UTC)