User talk:Lindag3333

February 2011

Your recent edits to Bobby Gonzalez could give Wikipedia contributors the impression that you may consider legal or other "off-wiki" action against them, or against Wikipedia itself. Please note that making such threats on Wikipedia is strictly prohibited under Wikipedia's policies on legal threats and civility. Users who make such threats may be blocked. If you have a dispute with the content of any page on Wikipedia, please follow the proper channels for dispute resolution. Please be sure to comment on content not contributors, and where possible make specific suggestions for changes supported by reliable independent sources and focusing especially on verifiable errors of fact. Thank you. Elizium23 (talk) 03:50, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

Bobby Gonzalez was the head basketball coach at Seton Hall University. No other basketball coach in Division One (there are about 1,000 of them) has the kind of negative, derogatory biography that you have allowed. it is discriminatory and was written by someone who wanted certain slanderous information out there. One of the references is a new york times article which is highly controversial and is under review for defamation.  You need to follow your own policies regarding living biographies. i want this permanently changed. I have the biography right from the horses mouth.

What you are allowing here, and compounding issues by refusing to let me dispute is simply outrageous and discriminatory. 

The place you want to be is: Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard. Good luck. Elizium23 (talk) 04:08, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

Also from what I see, this is no more than tabloid journalism at its worst.

Hi. Please type four tildes (a tilde looks like this: ~ ) after you finish each thing that you type on a talk page or noticeboard. This signs things that you say. Your post at the BLP noticeboard has been noticed, and some changes have been made. Further discussion will happen, so please continue to monitor both the article and the BLP noticeboard. Right now, my personal view is that the New York Times has published some rather strange material, and Wikipedia has mentioned it. The Wikipedia article could probably be balanced better. Be patient with us. But, please do not imply, threaten, or indicate legal action, because that will end your ability to discuss things with us here on Wikipedia. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 00:53, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Thank you. Lindag3333 (talk) 17:40, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

Bobby Gonzalez

I wonder if you could re-look at the article Bobby Gonzalez and comment if the issue has been resolved on the article's talk page. Keep in mind, a Wikipedia article is supposed to be neutral in tone and content. So it is not going to be a glowing biography, but neither should it be attacking in nature. Thanks David Able 16:53, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Bobby Gonzalez

by On the Banks on Mar 14, 2011 7:00 AM EDT in Big East Conference 

As loyal readers may know, several weeks back Linda Gonzalez relaunched her noble effort to set the record straight against a vicious, decade-long smear campaign. An insidious cabal of local and national media, including the likes of Brendan Prunty, Steve Politi, Jerry Carino, Adam Zagoria, Pete Thamel, Manish Mehta, Kevin Armstrong, J.P. Pelzman, Dana O'Neil, Eamon Brennan, and Lenn Robbins have long been in cahoots with Joe Quinlan, Monsignor Sheeran, Patrick Hobbs, Kevin Willard, Fred Hill Jr., Rick Pitino, Bob Byrnes, and countless others in an unfounded attempt to smear the good name of one Bobby Gonzalez.

With Linda's committed retorts certain to result in fruitful employment for her brother in the near future, it's about time we all step in and show more support in her quest. Specifically, she is trying to remove slanderous material from Bobby Gonzalez's page on Wikipedia.

The biography of Bobby Gonzalez is objectionable on a number of levels. He and his family are seeking to know who submitted this, and why edits are not being allowed on something that is so brazenly discriminatory. The information in this biography is unauthorized and controversial. it is malicious. It is clear discrimination and bias. Not one of the 1,000 or more division one coaches have such a biography written with such a derogatory slant. Bobby Gonzalez has been singled out by a malicious writer. I can tell you that all the references to and from the New York Times are not usable and are the subject of an impending defamation lawsuit. I can tell you that the legal incident mentioned was dismissed and is in the process of being expunged. You have no right whatsoever to allow that to be in there.

This biography is written as tabloid trash and it needs to be deleted. I can submit a proper one.

If you choose not to allow this and want to continue to run this, then I need to know that quickly. We have had dozens and dozens of complaints regarding this and warnings to have it changed.

My edits were changed twice which is odd to say the least. Kindly inform us as to what you can do about this.

This is the type of maliciousness I am referring to with the requested edits. this particular person by putting my requests from Wikipedia on Twitter is attempting to humiliate and ridicule Bobby Gonzalez, and me, as it turns out. This particular person represents a rival group. This is the type of maliciousness that Wikipedia is mandated to avoid. As you can see the input you are receiving on Bobby is coming from people with hate and malice in mind. I request the specific edits again. Lindag3333 (talk) 20:20, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

the biography I submitted is neutral and correct. it is an official biography appropriate for a "living" person. What you have is submitted by such people as this "on the banks" and is designed by slant to be malicious and slanderous. People like this have their own agendas. You have material that has been submitted that is subjective and damaging and needs to be removed. And we are still waiting. Lindag3333 (talk) 23:17, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

No image on Bobby Gonzalez page

Hi Linda, I believe you are related to Bobby Gonzalez. At present, there is no image (photo) on his Wikipedia page. Would you be interested in helping to arrange for one to be provided? If so, let me know and I will drop you an email explaining what's needed. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 14:58, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

Yes, of course I would be happy to do that.Lindag3333 (talk) 17:01, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

What about the requested edits, changes and additions? Lindag3333 (talk) 17:04, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

== Edits, changes and additions ==IMAGE1

Lindag3333 (talk) 21:42, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

OK let's try to deal with the issues with article content before we think about a photo.

I've just trimmed things a little further, although there might not be agreement on that from other editors.

My understanding is that you think the following things should be discussed in the article:

1. The success of his seven year run as head coach at Manhattan College.
2. His successful role as assistant coach for a team in the World University Games.
3. The Seton Hall program rising in the standings every year while Gonzalez was coach.
4. Anything else?

It seems that all of these are simple matters of fact, so it should be possible to include them. However, we have to look at what sources we use to reference them.

At the moment, the only references the article uses are to the New York Times, and to The Record. The NYT seems not to like Gonzalez very much, so of course it would be nice to have some sources with a more balanced view. I can assume plenty of other publications have discussed Gonzalez at various times? What we need is the name of the publication, the writer of the piece, the headline of the piece, the date, and what it said. If it happens to be online and there is a link to it, all the better, but that is not essential.

You mentioned you also have positive material about Gonzalez published by Seton Hall. This could be useful as well, to go alongside more independent sources.

Secondly and separately, there is some material you think should not be in the article;

1. Alleged criminal incidents involving players recruited by Gonzalez.
2. Detailed discussion of Seton Hall's stated reasons for firing Gonzalez.
3. Excessively negative interpretations of Gonzalez' performance at Seton Hall.
4. Anything else?

The first of these items I agree should not be in the article. The second of these items arguably should be in the article, but you would like "the other side of the story" to be told. So we need to know what independent publications have discussed the other side of the story (with details as mentioned above). Since you are campaigning to get the truth told, presumably you have succeeded in persuading some publications to discuss that.

The third of these items - excessively negative interpretation - I agree is a problem and should be fixed. The best way of fixing it is to find sources discussing the more positive aspects of Gonzalez' time there, as discussed above.

Let me know what you think. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 00:16, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

This video, if you can take the time to watch it, should explain everything that I'm talking about. Seton Hall made an official announcement on October 27, 2009, four months prior to Bobby's getting fired, in which they stated that he was getting a three year extension and that they were happy with the direction the program was going in. Even up to the firing, he had never been reprimanded for anything at the program ever. There were no conduct issues. Lindag3333 (talk) 18:35, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

http://video.msg.com/Home/Bobby-Gonzalez-Exclusive-Interview-6-6

the reality is, this living biography, since it concentrates almost wholely on references from a handful of Bobby's enemies who had an agenda and who are in fact, distorting the truth, lying outright at times and are hell bent on painting a completely negative disparaging damaging picture. Unless it is rewritten, it can't be fixed. Many of the articles that you are referencing are under legal review and it's highly likely that at some point, they will be proven untrue publicly. In the meantime, you are allowing this and it is truly tragic. I will do what you say and submit other biographical information, but I just don't see anyway around asking you to remove all references from the New York Times articles and Star Ledger and basically the stories which all surround the firing of Bobby and not his life or career or at least not in any truthful, accurate and especially neutral manner. I also ask you to respectively consider that this biography could conceivably prevent Bobby from obtaining employment anywhere. It is that damaging. Because of the way Wikipedia is used by fans and passed around, this does not bode well. And because so much of what is on here is speculative, subjective, damaging and in some cases outright false, this is something that needs attention. A man has a right to work for a living without being subjected to undue harassment that prevents it. In short, this is critical. It is better that the biography be removed entirely than have untrue or misleading information on it available to the public. That is a horrendous thing. This needs to be rewritten with the offending material removed. Lindag3333 (talk) 20:08, 23 March 2011 (UTC)Lindag3333 (talk) 20:05, 23 March 2011 (UTC)Lindag3333 (talk) 20:00, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

A column was written by Bill Reynolds, one of the most respected sportswriters in America, after Bobby was fired from Seton Hall. Bill Reynolds: The ‘Gonzo’ I knew was anything but ‘toxic’

01:00 AM EDT on Sunday, March 28, 2010

"I knew Bobby Gonzalez before...

... I would like to think that it didn’t have to come to this, my old pal Gonzo as the scapegoat for a climate that obviously took more than him to create.

breynold@projo.com"

It was in the Providence Journal, sunday, Mar 28, 2010. Reynolds was one of the few to ask questions. Other reporters just jumped on a bandwagon that was set up essentially by a Seton Hall acting AD and a few writers who were enemies.

Basically, the Wikipedia biography - since it is using Pete Thamel, Kevin Armstrong and Jersey writers who defamed Bobby - was allowed to be written by his enemies. Your outline of the issues is correct and I agree with you for the most part. I just don't think any references should be made to the NYTimes articles or Jersey articles because they are slanted specifically to be derogatory. Also there was the very real issue of Seton Hall AD Pat Hobbs who controlled all the statements out of Seton Hall. Hobbs, himself tried to correct those statements weeks after the firing, but by then it was too late and the perception was already out there.

I have some things that I have to locate and I will get them to you. I will make sure they have the writer, time, date, place, etc. I still believe that the only statement that should be on there regarding the firing is that the school decided to go in a different direction after a Seton Hall player got into legal trouble. The rest related to Monsignor's statement and Newspaper sources is all subjective and really has nothing to do with a biography that should be based on factual information. The so called facts from the newspaper articles are not accurate. Kind of like asking some guy chosen randomly who happens to work in the book business to comment publicly on you then allowing it to be part of your biographical information. Just doesn't make sense.

There shouldn't be any detailed discussion of Seton Hall's reasons for firing Bobby. There are anywhere from 25 to 50 coaches fired every year in division one basketball, and no other coaches have detailed discussions regarding their firings.

And yes, the biography does contain an "excessively negative" interpretation of Gonzalez' performance at Seton Hall. And that is just not true. Overall, Bobby got SEton Hall put back into the national conversation. He made them better. The numbers speak for themselves. He has a winning record there.

As for Manhattan, this entire paragraph should be removed. It is untrue and what's more, the athletic director who made these statements has admitted that. We do not believe he would stand by them today. In fact, if he does, I would love to know that. From everything I know, he's repented those statements. This does not belong anywhere in this biography because it is an outright lie, and is in fact defamation and the subject of current legal review. You don't need these kinds of things on Wikipedia. What I especially do not understand is why this is on Wikipedia in a living biography and why is it no other coach has this kind of treatment anywhere no matter what's he done. Why is that? Why would you allow such a derogatory subjective slant such as this. This is a pete thamel assassination. "Gonzalez was somewhat difficult to get along with." Really? I'm somewhat difficult to get along with too when I have a headached or am annoyed. Should I be reproached for it in a living biography on Wikipedia? You do see the unnecessary slanting negative nature of these comments do you not? Please remove entire paragraph, as I said, it is a lie. Lindag3333 (talk) 18:51, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Despite his success, Gonzalez was somewhat difficult to get along with. He often fought with other Manhattan coaches over practice time at Draddy Gymnasium.[3] He had numerous clashes with office personnel, security guards and his own assistants. He often personally called beat reporters to criticize their coverage. At one point, several sports editors told athletic director Bob Byrnes they'd stop covering the Jaspers if something wasn't done.[4] He In an interview with The New York Times, Byrnes said that it got to the point he could only handle Gonzalez "by threat."[5]Italic text Lindag3333 (talk) 18:51, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

In October 27 four months before the hiring Seton hall held a press conference and gave a statement that is anything but negative and exactly the opposite of what is appearing on Wikipedia. The video, and interview linked above, will make you wonder exactly what is going on here.Gonzalez led the 2009–2010 Pirates to postseason play for the first time in four years, with a berth in the NIT. Six minutes into the Pirates' first-round matchup with Texas Tech, forward Herb Pope knocked Texas Tech's Darko Cohadarevic to the floor with a punch to the groin. After officials reviewed the play on the replay monitor, Pope was ejected from the game, which Seton Hall subsequently lost 87–69. Gonzalez received his seventh technical of the season with 11 minutes to go.[7]

The next day, Gonzalez was fired. School officials stated that despite the team's on-court improvement, he was not a good representative for Seton Hall.[8] According to The Star-Ledger, Seton Hall Law School Dean Patrick Hobbs, who oversaw the athletic department at the time (though Seton Hall still had an athletic director), recommended Gonzalez' firing on the weekend before the NIT due to concerns about his behavior and that of his players. School officials were troubled by Gonzalez' frequent berating of officials (he received 20 technicals in four years), opposing coaches and opposing players. As had been the case during his tenure at Manhattan, he frequently clashed with school officials and the media.[9]

Before Gonzalez' ouster, concerns had been raised that he was building the program around high-risk transfers. Pope had previously been arrested for DUI and underage drinking while at New Mexico State. Another transfer, Keon Lawrence, was suspended for a month for driving the wrong way while intoxicated on the Garden State Parkway and causing a two-car accident.[2] According to Times columnist George Vescey, concerns about player behavior had put Gonzalez' job in jeopardy even before the 2010 NIT.[10]

A month after his firing, Gonzalez sued Seton Hall for wrongful termination, seeking to be paid for the last two years of his contract.[11] The suit was settled in August; terms were not disclosed.[12]Bold text

These paragraphs are also incorrect and don't belong on here nor does the groin punch at the NIT. It is ridiculous. A player at Mississippi state also punched a player in the groin on national tv the same night. Is that in the coaches' biography? The entire situation around the NIT is extremely suspect. The statements in these paragraphs are untrue. The Star Ledger report is wrong. Hobbs did not recommend the firing a week before. A week before he was talking more money in the contract. That is fact. There were no concerns about Bobby's behavior, he had never been reprimanded for anything. School officials were not troubled by Gonzalez's frequent berating of officials and frankly this statement singles Bobby out to clearly disparage him when every other coach in America berates officials and gets technicals. It is extremely unfair and damaging. The amount of technical fouls a coach gets isn't in any other biographies, why would it be in this one. The sentence "as had been the case during his tenure at Manhattan........." is this reporter attempting to paint a damaging perception that anything that happened at Manhattan must be happening at Seton hall when in fact it was not true. The school had no concerns over "high risk transfers." They, in fact, accepted every one of them with open arms. After Keon's DUI accident it was Pat Hobbs who chose to keep him at the school, his decision, not Bobby's. Herb Pope's DUI at Mexico State had nothing to do with Bobby. He was accepted at Seton Hall and is in fact still playing for the school. If he was a concern don't you think they would've found a way to get rid of him. Is Kevin Willard, the new coach, accused of playing high risk transfers on his biography? Because he's done everything possible to keep this kid at Seton Hall. George Vescey's statement is (not correct). That never happened. There were no concerns along these lines, the extension proves it and what's more, one week to one month before the firing, Hobbs and Bobby were in talks every few days over a raise in his salary. His job was not in jeopardy. Hobbs decision to get Bobby fired came after Bobby dismissed player Robert Mitchell from the team. Hobbs did not want him dismissed and insisted he stay on the team. Mitchell was thrown off anyway. Then he got arrested. Hobbs didn't want to get blamed and that's when the decision was made by him to get Bobby fired. It was the day of the NIT when word of the arrest got out.

The lawsuit issue also should not be included because of the slant it has. Seton Hall attempted to fire Bobby and not pay him his contract based on cause, however, courts disagreed, found Seton Hall not to have cause and Gonzalez was paid. That is the truth of it. The way you have it worded slants it negatively towards Bobby. Lindag3333 (talk) 19:46, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

will work on your suggestions and get back to you. I appreciate your comments and the time you are taking to right this. Thank you so much. Lindag3333 (talk) 18:17, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Hi Linda, it looks from the above like there is a lot of material about Gonzalez that is more balanced and that could be used in the bio. I will start organising it into refs and then try to work out how to bring it all together - keep the info coming. In the meantime I am going to trim out some of the direct quotes of entire articles above, just so we don't get into problems from a copyright point of view. (I have taken a copy for reference.) --Demiurge1000 (talk) 01:32, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

I've made a start on organising this in a sub-page at User:Demiurge1000/Bobby Gonzalez sources. The video isn't playing for me but I'll keep trying. Even neutral third party sources about any aspects of Gonzales' career (regardless of what part of it) would be useful to add to this, as having neutral sources that are proper news reports would avoid the requirement to depend on the NYT and the other one that are just opinion pieces. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 08:33, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

http://video.msg.com/Home/Bobby-Gonzalez-Exclusive-Interview-6-6

I put the link on again. Believe this one works. This is a good interview. There is also some fresh interviews coming up by national columnists that will address much of this stuff. For one year, basically, Bobby was not allowed to defend himself because his attorneys would not let him. so seton hall and people like Pete Thamel had free reign to say and do whatever they wanted. That is changing. Again, the NYT stuff and the Bob Byrnes stuff is just garbage. I will get some other stuff to you as soon as I can. 67.251.70.117 (talk) 17:35, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

67.251.70.117 (talk) 17:31, 24 March 2011 (UTC) http://www.shupirates.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=12600&ATCLID=652696 this is the bio from Seton Hall University. Lindag3333 (talk) 18:16, 24 March 2011 (UTC) http://5starbball.tv/profiles/blogs/bobby-gonzalez-to-close From 5 Star Basketball Camp. Lindag3333 (talk) 18:27, 24 March 2011 (UTC) However, it is Gonzalez's players and on-court press that have bedeviled opponents for years. A tried and true coach, he continues to impress with his gains and passion. Whether it is Harvey slicing through the lane or senior Brian Laing bodying up against bigger counterparts, there is a piece of Gonzalez, who is 142-93 in eight seasons as a Division I head coach, in each of his players and their games. "I look at him and think yeah he's a little crazy, but I think I'm a little crazy, too," says Paterson (N.J.) Catholic' pugnacious point guard Jordan Theodore, the top senior point guard in New Jersey, who will sign with Seton Hall next week. "It's a perfect marriage."

Forever talking as though his cell phone is about to lose service, Gonzalez is addicted to movement. Villanova coach Jay Wright, who roomed with Gonzalez for 27 days when Gonzalez served as Wright's assistant for the U.S. team at the 2005 University Games in Izmir, Turkey, says: "Bobby has a good heart and he's a friend. We were walking at the opening ceremonies and we're told no phones. Sure enough, once we get out there, walking among hundreds of great world athletes, his phone goes off and he's telling a recruit he'll have to call him back!"

Once described by Gillen as capable of making coffee nervous, the mentor still sees his former assistant's fire. "He's a good man, but you can't be a choir boy in the Big East," says Gillen. "He's a bathroom rooster, always moving at 200 mph and the other guys are all bounty hunters. He's fighting for his life and job each day. The guys at the top like Calhoun worked their ways up, too."

The proof that Gonzalez was the right hire at Seton Hall has been in his recruiting thus far. To follow up the Harvey signing, this year's freshman class has added big bodies (Michael Glover, Brandon Walters) and a shooter (Jeremy Hazel). His top recruiter, Dermon Player, is seemingly omnipresent in the halls and gyms of New York metro area high schools. "I think people are beginning to fear us. Because you hear our name with top recruits, people look and say, who the hell does he think he is?" says Gonzalez, who has gotten A-List recruits like Lincoln (Coney Island, N.Y.) junior Lance Stephenson and top-unsigned recruit Tyreke Evans to take unofficial visits. "You see, we're going to upset the order of things. I'm not going to just say we're Seton Hall and we're not supposed to be after those kids."

Though reverential toward the elder statesmen of the Big East in print, he does not defer in action. (this is from SI.com, Kevin Armstrong, Going Gonzo. Nov. 11, 2007) Lindag3333 (talk) 19:02, 24 March 2011 (UTC)