User talk:Kurtis/Archive 6

DYK? nomination review

I responded to your last post here--Template:Did you know nominations/Disarmament of Libya. Please respond back to me whenever you'll have a moment. Futurist110 (talk) 21:29, 2 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Done, and your article is passed. =) Kurtis ^(talk) 06:32, 3 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you very much. If you don't mind, are you able to quickly review either one or two more DYK? nominations of mine? If not, that's OK. Here are the other DYK? nominations of mine:

Template:Did you know nominations/Historical nuclear weapons stockpiles and nuclear tests by country
Template:Did you know nominations/Race and ethnic history of New York City

Again, thank you very much. Also, if you want me to review a DYK? nomination or two of yours, please let me know. Futurist110 (talk) 07:06, 3 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I might review more of yours in the near future, although it might be better to have input from others as well. Bear in mind, I'm also working on a DYK of my own (well, hopefully a DYK), so I might not get around to it.

I'd be fine with you reviewing any DYK's I submit if you wanted to, but don't feel as if you have to. Thanks, and take care. =) Kurtis ^(talk) 07:59, 3 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Kurtis, if it's OK with you, can you please review my New York City race and ethnic history DYK? nomination and in exchange I'll review your DYK? nomination when you're done with it? Futurist110 (talk) 08:27, 9 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Sure, not a problem! =)

And my DYK nomination is already live. You are more than welcome to review it. Kurtis ^(talk) 16:58, 9 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you very much, Kurtis. I already responded to your latest comments here -- Template:Did you know nominations/Disarmament of Libya -- right now. Please take a look at my most recent comments whenever you'll have a moment. In regards to the New York City race and ethnic history DYK? nomination, I will respond to all of the comments there soon, probably later on today. Futurist110 (talk) 23:41, 9 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I have now also reviewed your DYK? nomination here -- Template:Did you know nominations/Capital punishment in Yemen. Futurist110 (talk) 23:46, 9 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I have now responded to you again here -- Template:Did you know nominations/Race and ethnic history of New York City and here -- Template:Did you know nominations/Capital punishment in Yemen. Futurist110 (talk) 01:08, 10 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I have now responded to you again for the Libya DYK?. Please respond to both my Libya and my New York DYK?s whenever you can. Thank you very much. Futurist110 (talk) 03:51, 12 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

W.R.T. the New York DYK, I think BlueMoonset is probably better off taking it on. I just passed the Libya DYK. Sorry for the belated responses, I've been a bit... busy, I guess you could say (well... OK, so I'm kind of getting back into a certain first-person shooter from a bygone era, but within the next couple days or so I should have Yemen's capital punishment page fixed up and good to go). Kurtis ^(talk) 04:09, 12 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

In regards to your Yemen DYK?, I already approved it yesterday. As for the New York DYK?, I agree with you that I should discuss it with BlueMoonset, which is what I'm already doing right now. Futurist110 (talk) 21:13, 18 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Awesome, thanks! =) Kurtis ^(talk) 22:15, 18 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, no problem. :) If there's (ever) anything else that you want or need me to review, please let me know. Futurist110 (talk) 06:47, 21 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

RfA: thank you for your support

Kurtis, please accept my sincere thanks for your support during my RfA. It did not conclude as hoped, after taking several odd twists and turns, but I will work to show myself worthy of your support in my future editing. Regards, Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 11:07, 12 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

No problem. I hope I'll get the opportunity to support another run in the future as well. =) Kurtis ^(talk) 02:54, 18 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

TAFI

Hello,
In the past few days, Today's Articles for Improvement has gone through many changes.

We have modified the process for adding Nominations, which now uses a template/table format and requires only 3 supports for an article to be selected.
There is now a Holding Area, where articles are kept for discussion before being selected for a particular date.
The TAFI schedule now involves adding 10 articles weekly, chosen from a variety of topics.
We now have an Accomplishments page where we will be highlighting our older TAFI articles which have now become quality articles on the Wikipedia.

The Project is almost ready to hit the Main Page, where it will be occupying a section just below "Did you Know" section. Three article from the weekly batch of 7 will be displayed randomly at the main page, the format of which can be seen at the Main Page sandbox. There is also an ongoing discussion at the Main page talk over the final details before we can go forward with the Main Page.

If you have any ideas to discuss with everyone else, please visit the TAFI Talk Page and join in on the ongoing discussions there. You are also invited to add new nominations, and comment and suport on the current ones at the Nominations page. You can also help by helping in the discussions at the Holding Area.

Above all, please do not forget to improve our current Today's Articles for Improvement

Thank you and hoping to have some productive work from you at the Project,
TheOriginalSoni (talk) 11:17, 18 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
(From the TAFI team)

DYK for Capital punishment in Yemen

On 21 February 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Capital punishment in Yemen, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that Yemen has one of the highest execution rates in the world? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Capital punishment in Yemen. You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

The DYK project (nominate) 08:05, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

WikiProject Cleanup

Hello, Kurtis. You are invited to join WikiProject Cleanup, a WikiProject and resource for Wikipedia cleanup listings, information and discussion. To join the project, just add your name to the member list. Northamerica1000^(talk) 15:45, 24 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

You seem pretty calm

Should probably be an admin. (No ulterior purpose...just you made that impression with your comments to people).

TCO (talk) 00:41, 25 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

P.s. Then again Wiki (and the Internet in general) is a time suck, so not sure that wishing you more involvement is the best thing for you.

Thanks for your sentiments, I really appreciate them. =)

I'm not sure if you were aware of this, but I actually did have an RfA last year: Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Master&Expert. It failed, but I haven't lost my enthusiasm for this site by a long shot. I plan on submitting an RfA again sometime this year, probably in about >6 months or so. For now, I'm exploring the bureaucracy surrounding content contributions (WP:DYK, WP:GA, WP:FA).

But thanks for your kind words of encouragement. I always appreciate it when people go out of their way to say nice things. Kurtis ^(talk) 01:16, 25 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting. Just scanned it. You know, you might look into doing some file work (upload pictures or maybe FP...although it is sort of cliquey and overly photo-technical there...still really cool content and you can just review...at least they get participation). The other thing is you could do some stub starting. It is kind of fun. And there is still a lot of useful content (chemical compounds, species, notable people) that are still not in there. For instance, I just created a list of Nissen Award winners and all the red links are de facto notable for being in that list. you have to do a certain minimum amount (get a cat in and a notablity claim and a ref...but really not that much. Can pick an area that interest me. Let me check your page.TCO (talk) 01:24, 25 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I guess the Middle East is the thing that comes off of your talk page as the biggest theme. You may find minor things that are not in Wiki but still notable to add. I usually don't add things by category, but just when I come up with things I know that are moderately notable but not well covered on Wiki (e.g. early 20th century literature is very poorly covered...at one time we lacked a bio on Berry Fleming who wrote a very popular mid century book, Pulitzer-like, but the average person does not know it now. We actually still lack the stub on his book, just having the film.) Actually that book is really an awesomely fun to read book with some very gentle things to say about machine politics and human nature and how there is still hope for the young (very relevant to Wiki in a way).TCO (talk) 01:59, 25 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I kind of bounce around into ideas all the time that are not well covered here. Like Red Sky at Morning has been very much compared to Catcher in the Rye (I like it even better as it is a little more upbeat, but still has a soul). We totally need an article on that...damn...just checked and we have one...still kind of cool and you get the idea.TCO (talk) 01:59, 25 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I love writing articles, but those are some good ideas that I think I might explore in the near future. Stub sorting is an area I'm unfamiliar with, but it's incredibly helpful for our readers to have subjects well-categorized. Thanks for the tips, I'll definitely check them out.

Of course you can check my page. Go right ahead. =) Kurtis ^(talk) 02:08, 25 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Actually I kind of question how much good stub sorting does (don't the projects use their own and the categories?) I meant stub starting. There is also file improvement if you are at all into graphics. Those people are really the sweetest on Wiki (the people at the Graphics Lab).TCO (talk) 08:30, 25 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Eh, not my cup of tea. But thanks for the advice! =) Kurtis ^(talk) 08:52, 25 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Epeefleche

You may or may not be aware that the RFC/U on Epeefleche's approach to removing easily and obviously verifiable content has closed. Epeefleche essentially ignored you and I, and refused to respond to the main point of my criticism. The closing admin, also, has gone on to completely ignore your and my perspectives also in taking Epeefleche's side. Yes, there was a roughly two-thirds split against my position (keeping in mind that there was some circumstantial evidence of offwiki canvassing, including that Epeefleche has a background of doing exactly that), but that's not a unanimous enough reason to categorically ignore one side, and then to criticise me. This is an outright endorsement of the strategies and approaches used by Epeefleche's side, i.e., that wikidramamongering is an effective defence against any criticism and to silence opponents.

I no longer care. This is the final nail in the coffin as far as I'm concerned regarding the culture at wikipedia. I have retired, primarily due to the admin conduct around the wikidrama of this RFC/U, and do not intend to return. There are other communities around the web that I have found which are far less combative and far less tolerant of dramamongers, and perhaps I'll see you there. ˜danjel [ talk | contribs ] 00:44, 2 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Danjel, if you feel Epeefleche has canvassed for opinions, you should notify the closing administrator and discuss it with them. You say there is "circumstantial evidence" — you'll need to present that in order to make a case. BrownHairedGirl closed the RfC according to the consensus that developed on the page, which is that removing unsourced content is strongly encouraged by Wikipedia policy. I do somewhat share your opinion that it can at times be reckless on the part of certain users, but it remains a minority viewpoint.

By the way, I should note that I'm not actually against the removal of unsourced content. As a matter of fact, I do it myself. The only thing is that a few of Epeefleche's removals go a little too far, and he removes large swathes of important text from the article. Factual accuracy and adequate coverage are very important despite lacking references, which really ought to be added as soon as possible.

In any case, good luck with your future endeavours. I hope you find more satisfaction wherever you wind up. Kurtis ^(talk) 03:59, 2 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Well said

Hi. I'm not going to place an unecessary !vote and add to Jasper's discomfort, but I just wanted to say how excellent your commentary on the effects (and side effects) of blocks and bans is. Thanks for taking the time to write that. I hope it will reach some hearts and minds. Regards, --Stfg (talk) 13:41, 9 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you! It's great to know that someone appreciates my sentiments.

Just as an aside, I do not think that Jasper Deng is unsuited for adminship altogether, but just that I feel he is not ready at this time. Once he demonstrates a more nuanced approach to the bureaucracy, I'll be more than happy to support. Kurtis ^(talk) 15:00, 9 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I understand. I've seen him around occasionally, but don't know him well. It it were a close thing, I'd've looked at his contributions a bit and tried to form an opinion, but as things stand, I couldn't really make a difference anyway. No prejudice to later tries, of course. It's nice to have met you. --Stfg (talk) 15:40, 9 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Compliment

"[...] a block on a good-faith contributor is something that will stay with them for long after it has been lifted or expired." (Wow. Well put. You see deeply.) Sincere, Ihardlythinkso (talk) 05:04, 14 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, friend! I appreciate the sentiment. =) Kurtis ^(talk) 05:10, 14 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

DYK? nomination review

Hey Kurtis,

Could you please review this DYK? nomination of mine--Template:Did you know nominations/Urbanization in the United States. If not, that's okay, but please tell me what your decision is. Also, if you want me to review any DYK? nominations of yours, please let me know and I would be willing to do so. Thank you very much. Futurist110 (talk) 03:25, 20 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

At the moment I'm not really working on any articles (taking a short break from it for the time being), but I might get around to your DYK within the next day or two. Kurtis ^(talk) 03:29, 20 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Motion to close RFC/U

You have previously commented on Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Niemti.

As an outside editor, I have moved that this RFC/U be closed. If you wish to comment on the Motion to close, please do so here. Fladrif (talk) 14:33, 28 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Neitmi !vote AN

Question - was your !vote on the last section in the WP:AN discussion on Neitmi sanctions an "Oppose" to both an interaction ban and civility parole, or just civility parole? I'm trying to close as accurately as possible.

Thank you. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 21:53, 2 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm opposed to the civility parole, but I strongly support an interaction ban. Kurtis ^(talk) 02:10, 3 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Invitation to WikiProject Breakfast

Hello, Kurtis. You are invited to join WikiProject Breakfast, a WikiProject and resource dedicated to improving Wikipedia's coverage of breakfast-related topics. To join the project, just add your name to the member list. Northamerica1000^(talk) 17:27, 6 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Project for RfA nominators

As one of the supporters of a related proposal in the 2013 RfC on RfA reform, you are invited to join the new WikiProject for RfA nominators. Please come and help shape this initiative. Regards, Espresso Addict (talk) 21:49, 8 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Syria civil war

We already had a chemical weapons section in the article that talks exactly about the information you put, so if you can remove one of the two sections that would be great. Sopher99 (talk) 00:36, 14 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Heh — I actually never noticed that before, at least not until you pointed that out. Could have sworn I'd seen nothing about it under any subheading. But I think it's better covered under the chronology of the war, rather than international reactions to it (although that will also need to be taken into account). I'll transfer some of the information over. Be warned, though: Google Chrome has crashed on me and I've resorted to using Internet Explorer. The speed of my editing has taken a hit as a result. Kurtis ^(talk) 00:41, 14 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Talkback

Hello, Kurtis. You have new messages at Wikipedia:Requests_for_adminship/Pjoef.
Message added 08:44, 5 May 2013 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

I left you a question in response to your reply against my oppose !vote. Mkdw ^talk 08:44, 5 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Heh — and here I was responding to it before I even became aware of this talk page notification. Just another grim reminder of the realities associated with the loss of the great orange banner... =( Kurtis ^(talk) 09:15, 5 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

That's what I thought but I wanted to make sure just in case. Cheers, Mkdw ^talk 22:41, 5 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

A barnstar for you!

	The Special Barnstar
	Hi, Kurtis. I don't know you personally, but I've seen your work on Wikipedia and I just want to give you this award as thanks for your efforts as an editor here, especially with regards to editing articles. Keep up the good work as usual! Regards, Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 04:31, 15 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you very much! I appreciate it. :-)

Likewise, I've seen you around plenty and I consider you to be a pretty valuable editor. May our paths cross again sometime. Kurtis ^(talk) 05:34, 15 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yep. I have been with the project for over 6 years actually and contributed to at least 11 good articles and 10 featured articles. I do not intend to cause issues when trying to deal with difficult editors and I do apologize if I was uncivil in any way towards anyone. I didn't mean for some things to happen. But when someone posts questionable aspects on my behavior, I get a little shaky and I have an extremely low tolerance towards uncalled for disrespect or comments which I find to be incivil as it can create a power imbalance in communication. On an unrelated note, I find Fladrif's comments towards me off putting from the beginning, but thankfully part of that has already been dealt with over at ANI. That pretty much emphasized the fact that we should not be having uncivil behavior on Wikipedia anyway. In fact, Ched realized that he posted past observations about me in a negative light and apologized if he offended me after I apologized to him while the Fladrif fiasco went down. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 10:58, 15 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, what are you referring to? The "Fladrif fiasco"? What's that?

I do vaguely remember a community discussion that concerned you, but I think it pertained more to somebody else — Niemti, right? I'm sorry if I said anything that offended you. I don't recall having been particularly critical of anything you've said or done, and I've had an overall positive impression of the work you do here.

Ah, now I remember that discussion (after searching through archives to find it). Yes, it was Ched's comment that convinced me to strike out the part where I criticized Niemti for harassing you, because the links he provided gave the sense that you had long-term involvement and would be best advised to disengage (or something to that effect). It's possible that he was taking things out of context, but I don't know enough about that case to make broad judgments either way. His comment did seem to cast you in a negative light, and it's good to hear he's acknowledged it and apologized. I just thought that, in the end, it would be best for you and Niemti to avoid interacting with each other as much as possible; it's not a reflection of poor judgment on your part so much as it is my hope that everyone can come to some sort of a solution involving as little drama as possible. I speak as someone who has traditionally had a hard time letting things go after the fact, sometimes it's best to move on and let the chips fall where they may.

That particular editor has demonstrated a long-standing pattern of incivility, which is exactly what got him banned in the first place. I haven't heard anything about him in over a month's time. Perhaps he's receded back to editing articles on his own? In any case, he'll dig his own grave if he chooses to continue on as he's been doing. It's his prerogative, and he knows what he has to do if he wants to continue being welcome here. Kurtis ^(talk) 15:05, 15 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, man! By the way, Fladrif, whose attitude has been off-putting from the beginning has been blocked per this discussion at ANI due to personal attacks and incivility. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 16:23, 15 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Not a problem. And yeah, I can't say that wasn't a long time coming for Fladrif, unfortunately. Kurtis ^(talk) 17:15, 15 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Of course. Fladrif does has a long history of what I believe to be personal attacks, incivility and battlegroundish behavior towards almost every user (including myself, AGK, Wehwalt and Ched, as well as Keithbob and Penbat). Penbat was wikihounded by Fladrif over the past couple of weeks and was subjected to constant personal abuse and uncivil behavior (like myself), but he took the trouble of reconstructing the talk page for proper scrutiny. Fladrif was previously warned about this over the past couple of years even after an WP:ARBCOM case. That blocking discussion with Fladrif pretty much emphasized the fact that we should not be having bullying behaviors around here. Wikipedia is, after all, a collaborative encyclopedia. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 17:23, 15 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Believe me when I say that it gives me no joy to see Fladrif gone from the project, but sometimes it is best to part ways from those with whom we do not get along. Kurtis ^(talk) 04:01, 20 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Kurtis, we moved your Teahouse host profile

Hello Kurtis! Thank you for being a host at the Teahouse. However, we haven't heard from you lately, so our bot has moved your Host profile from the host landing page to the host breakroom. No worries; you can always just Check in and our bot will move your profile back. Editing any Teahouse-related page will do the same thing for you. If you would prefer not to receive reminders like this, you can unsubscribe here. Thanks for your help at the Teahouse! HostBot (talk) 03:50, 20 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

That's fine. I joined because I had thought I might be a more active participant over there, but it turns out I'm not really all that interested in it. Editor retention is something I'm very passionate about — always have been — but I don't think it's big projects like the Teahouse or the Welcoming Committee that make Wikipedia a better place. I can explain what I mean by that in so many words, but Gandalf puts it much better than I ever could. :-) Kurtis ^(talk) 03:56, 20 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Re: Userboxes

Hi Kurtis. Sorry it took me ages to reply, I haven't logged in for a while. I'm dumbfounded, I went to your userbox page and tried to center the middle column boxes, but to no success. I think the command is <center>, but placing it still doesn't seem to fix it. I tried removing some of your userboxes in case some code was interfering, but still nothing. Also tried to replace the whole column with my own, and the userboxes still go to the left. I'll continue to try to find out, it's bugging me now. :-) Regards, Hús ö nd 22:15, 21 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your help. But alas, not even the creator can get past these issues. :-( Kurtis ^(talk) 01:10, 22 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

IRC office hours for wiki-mentors and Snuggle users

Hi. We're organizing an office hours session with the Teahouse to bring in mentors from across the wiki to try out Snuggle and discuss it's potential to support mentorship broadly. The Snuggle team would appreciate it if you would come and participate in the discussion. We'll be having it in #wikimedia-office ^connect on Wed. July 17th @ 1600 UTC. See the agenda for more info. --EpochFail^{(talk • work)}, Technical 13 (talk), TheOriginalSoni (talk) 18:27, 12 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Your Arbitration evidence is too long

Hello, Kurtis. Thank you for your recent submission of evidence for the Kiefer.Wolfowitz and Ironholds Arbitration case. As you may be aware, the Arbitration Committee asks that users submitting evidence in cases adhere to limits regarding the length of their submissions. These limits, currently at 1000 words and 100 diffs for parties and 500 words and 50 diffs for all others, are in place to ensure that the Arbitration Committee receives only the most important information relevant to the case, and is able to determine an appropriate course of action in a reasonable amount of time. The evidence you have submitted currently exceeds at least one of these limits, and is presently at 850 words and 24 diffs. Please try to reduce the length of your submission to fit within these limits; this guide may be able to provide some help in doing so. If the length of your evidence is not reduced soon, it may be refactored or removed by a human clerk within a few days. Thank you! If you have any questions or concerns regarding the case, please contact the drafting Arbitrator or case clerk (who are listed on the case pages); if you have any questions or concerns about this bot, please contact the operator. On behalf of the Arbitration Committee, HersfoldArbClerkBOT^(talk) 00:04, 13 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I am aware of this. I've asked for permission to exceed the limit on the evidence talk page. Kurtis ^(talk) 00:46, 13 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

CCI note

Hey. I saw your message over on MER-C's page about help out at CCI. For users just starting out, the best ones to handle are the ones that provide sources readily, but are simply too close paraphrases, or copy-pastes. This way the Duplication Detector can be used to evaluate, so long as the link works and the detector picks up the site. In your case, I see you left a comment at the Epeefleche RfC, so his CCI would be a good starting point, mainly since there's a lot of different articles small and big you can work on (plus it's one of the older ones). In his alone there's over 1000 articles, so any help we can get in copyright work is hugely appreciated :) Wizardman 14:44, 19 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the helpful response. I'll definitely look into that one. So basically I just blank the copyrighted content (ie. the closely paraphrased or copy/pasted text) and rewrite it so that it doesn't adhere too closely to the source material? Kurtis ^(talk) 03:12, 20 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yep. MER-C 07:17, 20 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Swedish literature of the 1950s

Kurtis, Alf Henrikson is a pretty much forgotten Swedish author who wasn't even in his heyday known to anglophones; I was very sure you wouldn't have heard of him. My suggestion that you actually "alluded" to a couple of lines by Henrikson was a sort of joke, or a way of telling KW (a Swedish speaker, and well-read) that he had now been told the same thing twice, by two independent sources (=you and me). Hope you didn't mind! I was just struck by the way you put it. Bishonen | talk 22:01, 21 July 2013 (UTC).[reply]

Ah, I see. And suddenly it all seems clear! :-) Kurtis ^(talk) 22:07, 21 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]